http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/1050...elicopter.html

This is getting weirder and weirder. No signs of at least one engine or
any gearbox failure.



--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc-ra-cy) €“ a system of government where the least capable to
lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the
members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are
rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a
diminishing number of producers.

On 09/12/13 16:58, The Natural Philosopher wrote:


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/1050...elicopter.html


This is getting weirder and weirder. No signs of at least one engine or
any gearbox failure.



http://www.aaib.gov.uk/cms_resources...-SPAO%20v2.pdf

is the actual preliminary report.


--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc-ra-cy) €“ a system of government where the least capable to
lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the
members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are
rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a
diminishing number of producers.

On 09/12/2013 5:01 PM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 09/12/13 16:58, The Natural Philosopher wrote:


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/1050...elicopter.html


This is getting weirder and weirder. No signs of at least one engine or
any gearbox failure.



http://www.aaib.gov.uk/cms_resources...-SPAO%20v2.pdf

is the actual preliminary report.



The PM on the pilot may be more conclusive. The fact that the crash was
so sudden that no mayday call was made, and that no attempt to miss the
building was made, would, in the absence of obvious catastrophic
mechanical failure, indicate something like a heart attack.

--
Bob - Tetbury, Gloucestershire, UK

I'm retired. I was tired yesterday, and I'm tired again today.

On 09/12/2013 18:18, Bob Henson wrote:
On 09/12/2013 5:01 PM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 09/12/13 16:58, The Natural Philosopher wrote:


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/1050...elicopter.html


This is getting weirder and weirder. No signs of at least one engine or
any gearbox failure.



http://www.aaib.gov.uk/cms_resources...-SPAO%20v2.pdf

is the actual preliminary report.



The PM on the pilot may be more conclusive. The fact that the crash was
so sudden that no mayday call was made, and that no attempt to miss the
building was made, would, in the absence of obvious catastrophic
mechanical failure, indicate something like a heart attack.


The AAIB report indicates that the rotors were stationery. That's a bit
odd. Why would he have done that?

On Mon, 09 Dec 2013 17:01:28 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

This is getting weirder and weirder. No signs of at least one
engine or
any gearbox failure.

http://www.aaib.gov.uk/cms_resources...-SPAO%20v2.pdf

is the actual preliminary report.

Ta, saves me wandering over to get the story from the horses mouth
without the mejia filter in place.

Most odd, apart from fuel starvation. Crud in the fuel and/or tank
blocked filter. Would fit with the witness report of loud misfiring,
silence and nothing going round on impact.

--
Cheers
Dave.

On Mon, 09 Dec 2013 18:18:03 +0000, Bob Henson wrote:

The PM on the pilot may be more conclusive. The fact that the crash was
so sudden that no mayday call was made, and that no attempt to miss the
building was made, would, in the absence of obvious catastrophic
mechanical failure, indicate something like a heart attack.

The pilots funeral was a couple of days ago. One would assume that if
anything like that had been found in the post mortum it would have
been published. Doesn't really fit with misfiring, silence,
stationary rotors, and near vertical decent.

--
Cheers
Dave.

"Dave Liquorice" wrote in message
ll.co.uk...
On Mon, 09 Dec 2013 17:01:28 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

This is getting weirder and weirder. No signs of at least one
engine or
any gearbox failure.

http://www.aaib.gov.uk/cms_resources...-SPAO%20v2.pdf

is the actual preliminary report.

Ta, saves me wandering over to get the story from the horses mouth
without the mejia filter in place.

Most odd, apart from fuel starvation. Crud in the fuel and/or tank
blocked filter. Would fit with the witness report of loud misfiring,
silence and nothing going round on impact.

--
Cheers
Dave.


Would a massive electrical failure do it? No engine, no avionics/radio but
why did the rotor actually stop? Do they not 'freewheel' with a loss of
power?

Dave Liquorice wrote:

On Mon, 09 Dec 2013 17:01:28 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

This is getting weirder and weirder. No signs of at least one
engine or
any gearbox failure.

http://www.aaib.gov.uk/cms_resources...-SPAO%20v2.pdf

is the actual preliminary report.

Ta, saves me wandering over to get the story from the horses mouth
without the mejia filter in place.

Most odd, apart from fuel starvation. Crud in the fuel and/or tank
blocked filter. Would fit with the witness report of loud misfiring,
silence and nothing going round on impact.

The rotors would take a bit of stopping; the helicopter took about 7
or 8 seconds to fall and even if the engines had failed they'd still
be turning after that interval, especially if the attitude was
'flat' the airflow would also assist them turning even if there was
no power.

The report says that the power train from No 2 engine was OK, but does
note that this couldn't be tested on No 1 due to impact damage.

ATM I'm thinking that some sort of possibly-temporary seizure of the
drive train stopped the rotors, and the disrupted gas flow through the
engines caused the backfiring sound reported by at least one witness.


--
Terry Fields

On 09/12/2013 6:45 PM, Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Mon, 09 Dec 2013 18:18:03 +0000, Bob Henson wrote:

The PM on the pilot may be more conclusive. The fact that the crash was
so sudden that no mayday call was made, and that no attempt to miss the
building was made, would, in the absence of obvious catastrophic
mechanical failure, indicate something like a heart attack.

The pilots funeral was a couple of days ago. One would assume that if
anything like that had been found in the post mortum it would have
been published. Doesn't really fit with misfiring, silence,
stationary rotors, and near vertical decent.


I didn't know they'd had the PM. If must be a major mechanical failure then.

--
Bob - Tetbury, Gloucestershire, UK

If at first you don't succeed, then skydiving definitely isn't for you.

On 09/12/13 18:18, Bob Henson wrote:
On 09/12/2013 5:01 PM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 09/12/13 16:58, The Natural Philosopher wrote:


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/1050...elicopter.html


This is getting weirder and weirder. No signs of at least one engine or
any gearbox failure.



http://www.aaib.gov.uk/cms_resources...-SPAO%20v2.pdf

is the actual preliminary report.



The PM on the pilot may be more conclusive. The fact that the crash was
so sudden that no mayday call was made, and that no attempt to miss the
building was made, would, in the absence of obvious catastrophic
mechanical failure, indicate something like a heart attack.

yebbut blades don't stop going round cos the pilots snuffed it.


--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc-ra-cy) €“ a system of government where the least capable to
lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the
members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are
rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a
diminishing number of producers.

On 09/12/13 18:25, GB wrote:
The AAIB report indicates that the rotors were stationery. That's a bit
odd. Why would he have done that?

Perhaps he ran out of balsa wood an a sheet of A4 was all he had left?


--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc-ra-cy) €“ a system of government where the least capable to
lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the
members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are
rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a
diminishing number of producers.

On 09/12/13 18:34, Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Mon, 09 Dec 2013 17:01:28 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

This is getting weirder and weirder. No signs of at least one
engine or
any gearbox failure.

http://www.aaib.gov.uk/cms_resources...-SPAO%20v2.pdf

is the actual preliminary report.

Ta, saves me wandering over to get the story from the horses mouth
without the mejia filter in place.

Most odd, apart from fuel starvation. Crud in the fuel and/or tank
blocked filter. Would fit with the witness report of loud misfiring,
silence and nothing going round on impact.

Ok...wouldn't that actually simply cause autorotation, and surely gas
turbines don't 'backfire'


--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc-ra-cy) €“ a system of government where the least capable to
lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the
members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are
rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a
diminishing number of producers.

On 09/12/2013 16:58, The Natural Philosopher wrote:


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/1050...elicopter.html


This is getting weirder and weirder. No signs of at least one engine or
any gearbox failure.

The AAIB report does not actually say no engine failure, it only says no
major mechanical damage to the engines. There are other failure modes,
such as a flame out, which cannot yet be ruled out. The report of sounds
like a car backfire would be consistent with compressor stall, although
the type of engine management system fitted is supposed to stop them
from happening.

Colin Bignell

On Mon, 09 Dec 2013 19:05:54 +0000, Bob Henson wrote:

The pilots funeral was a couple of days ago.

I didn't know they'd had the PM.

I don't for sure, no mention has been made but I'd be *very*
surprised if there hasn't been one.

--
Cheers
Dave.

On 09/12/2013 19:10, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 09/12/13 18:34, Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Mon, 09 Dec 2013 17:01:28 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

This is getting weirder and weirder. No signs of at least one
engine or
any gearbox failure.

http://www.aaib.gov.uk/cms_resources...-SPAO%20v2.pdf

is the actual preliminary report.

Ta, saves me wandering over to get the story from the horses mouth
without the mejia filter in place.

Most odd, apart from fuel starvation. Crud in the fuel and/or tank
blocked filter. Would fit with the witness report of loud misfiring,
silence and nothing going round on impact.

Ok...wouldn't that actually simply cause autorotation, and surely gas
turbines don't 'backfire'

If the compressor stalls, they can* and the noise will be similar.
However, the helicopter had an advanced engine management system that
should have prevented compressor stall.

* Airflow through the compressor is disrupted, compression stops or is
seriously reduced and air that has already been compressed reverses
direction and comes out of the intake. The engine will probably flame
out through lack of air and stop.

Colin Bignell

On 09/12/2013 19:20, Nightjar wrote:
On 09/12/2013 16:58, The Natural Philosopher wrote:


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/1050...elicopter.html



This is getting weirder and weirder. No signs of at least one engine or
any gearbox failure.

The AAIB report does not actually say no engine failure, it only says no
major mechanical damage to the engines. There are other failure modes,
such as a flame out, which cannot yet be ruled out. The report of sounds
like a car backfire would be consistent with compressor stall, although
the type of engine management system fitted is supposed to stop them
from happening.

Colin Bignell

"powered by two Turbomeca Arrius 2B2
turboshaft engines. These full-authority digital electronic
control (FADEC) equipped engines"

Don't know anything about FADEC but *presumably* the two engines would
have had completely independent "engine management systems". I wonder if
someone missed a common mode failure fault (unlikely though that seems).

On Mon, 09 Dec 2013 19:10:46 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Most odd, apart from fuel starvation. Crud in the fuel and/or tank
blocked filter. Would fit with the witness report of loud
misfiring,
silence and nothing going round on impact.

Ok...wouldn't that actually simply cause autorotation,

Doesn't autorotation require hefty levels of main rotor pitch?
Cruising flight wouldn't have much pitch. There may also be too much
drag/inertia with the main rotor still coupled to the engines for
them to spin freely.

... and surely gas turbines don't 'backfire'

They can flame out. Intermittent fuel supply at odd pressures would
screw up the fuel/air mix possibly allowing unburnt fuel into the hot
exhaust part of the machine where it ignites but not confined by a
combustion chamber, BANG!

--
Cheers
Dave.

On Mon, 09 Dec 2013 18:18:03 +0000, Bob Henson
wrote:

On 09/12/2013 5:01 PM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 09/12/13 16:58, The Natural Philosopher wrote:


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/1050...elicopter.html


This is getting weirder and weirder. No signs of at least one engine or
any gearbox failure.



http://www.aaib.gov.uk/cms_resources...-SPAO%20v2.pdf

is the actual preliminary report.



The PM on the pilot may be more conclusive. The fact that the crash was
so sudden that no mayday call was made, and that no attempt to miss the
building was made, would, in the absence of obvious catastrophic
mechanical failure, indicate something like a heart attack.

The day after, one of the red-tops was heralding the pilot as a hero,
for averting a more serious incident in the final seconds.

Just how much worse did they expect it to be?



--
Graham.

%Profound_observation%

On 9 Dec 2013 19:03:15 GMT, Terry Fields wrote:

The rotors would take a bit of stopping; the helicopter took about 7
or 8 seconds to fall and even if the engines had failed they'd still
be turning after that interval, especially if the attitude was
'flat' the airflow would also assist them turning even if there was
no power.

Would it? Isn't the airflow in the opposite direction? In flight the
rotor is shoving lots of air downwards. Lose power and start falling
the airflow through the rotor is now upwards, without changing the
rotor pitch that will tend to slow the rotor...

ATM I'm thinking that some sort of possibly-temporary seizure of the
drive train stopped the rotors,

As you say "the rotors would take a bit of stopping", with a seizure
all that kinetic energy gets disipated at the place of seizure, that
is going to leave a mark like stripped gear teeth etc. The report
says "Clear impact distortion of the structure had caused a splined
shaft on the drive train from the No.1 engine to disengage ..."
nothing about any other damage that could be expected if the gearbox
or bearings has seized.

--
Cheers
Dave.

On Mon, 09 Dec 2013 18:34:32 +0000, Dave Liquorice wrote:

On Mon, 09 Dec 2013 17:01:28 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

This is getting weirder and weirder. No signs of at least one
engine or
any gearbox failure.

http://www.aaib.gov.uk/cms_resources...-SPAO%20v2.pdf

is the actual preliminary report.

Ta, saves me wandering over to get the story from the horses mouth
without the mejia filter in place.

Most odd, apart from fuel starvation. Crud in the fuel and/or tank
blocked filter. Would fit with the witness report of loud misfiring,
silence and nothing going round on impact.


One item that I read mentioned that there are 2 fuel tanks of different
capacities. I'm guessing that each of these feeds its own engine, so you
would need both fuel systems to fail.

On 09/12/2013 20:30, mick wrote:
On Mon, 09 Dec 2013 18:34:32 +0000, Dave Liquorice wrote:

On Mon, 09 Dec 2013 17:01:28 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

This is getting weirder and weirder. No signs of at least one
engine or
any gearbox failure.

http://www.aaib.gov.uk/cms_resources...-SPAO%20v2.pdf

is the actual preliminary report.

Ta, saves me wandering over to get the story from the horses mouth
without the mejia filter in place.

Most odd, apart from fuel starvation. Crud in the fuel and/or tank
blocked filter. Would fit with the witness report of loud misfiring,
silence and nothing going round on impact.


One item that I read mentioned that there are 2 fuel tanks of different
capacities. I'm guessing that each of these feeds its own engine, so you
would need both fuel systems to fail.


From another accident report involving this type of helicopter, it
appears that there is a main tank and two supply tanks, each of which
would feed one engine. Presumably a later report will tell us how much
fuel was in each tank.

Colin Bignell

On 09/12/2013 19:09, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 09/12/13 18:25, GB wrote:
The AAIB report indicates that the rotors were stationery. That's a bit
odd. Why would he have done that?

Perhaps he ran out of balsa wood an a sheet of A4 was all he had left?



I'm really cross. I stopped and thought about it for a moment. AND THEN
I STILL GOT IT WRONG! GRRRRRRR!

Can we have a petition to ban all homophones from the language?

On 09/12/2013 19:38, Nightjar wrote:

Ok...wouldn't that actually simply cause autorotation, and surely gas
turbines don't 'backfire'

If the compressor stalls, they can* and the noise will be similar.
However, the helicopter had an advanced engine management system that
should have prevented compressor stall.

* Airflow through the compressor is disrupted, compression stops or is
seriously reduced and air that has already been compressed reverses
direction and comes out of the intake. The engine will probably flame
out through lack of air and stop.

What would cause that to happen to both engines at the same time?

On 09/12/13 19:20, Nightjar wrote:
On 09/12/2013 16:58, The Natural Philosopher wrote:


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/1050...elicopter.html



This is getting weirder and weirder. No signs of at least one engine or
any gearbox failure.

The AAIB report does not actually say no engine failure, it only says no
major mechanical damage to the engines. There are other failure modes,
such as a flame out, which cannot yet be ruled out. The report of sounds
like a car backfire would be consistent with compressor stall,

Ah.. but would that stop the blades? I THOUGHT they had a sort of one
way clutch that would kick into autorotate.

Maybe someone simply shot the pilot from the ground.

Except you would have thought they might have noticed that.


although
the type of engine management system fitted is supposed to stop them
from happening.

Colin Bignell


--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc-ra-cy) €“ a system of government where the least capable to
lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the
members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are
rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a
diminishing number of producers.

On 09/12/13 21:21, GB wrote:
On 09/12/2013 19:38, Nightjar wrote:

Ok...wouldn't that actually simply cause autorotation, and surely gas
turbines don't 'backfire'

If the compressor stalls, they can* and the noise will be similar.
However, the helicopter had an advanced engine management system that
should have prevented compressor stall.

* Airflow through the compressor is disrupted, compression stops or is
seriously reduced and air that has already been compressed reverses
direction and comes out of the intake. The engine will probably flame
out through lack of air and stop.

What would cause that to happen to both engines at the same time?

probably something pretty unusual. I have never heard of a turboprop
flaming out. A violent manoeuvre might do it I would suppose.

or maybe not..

http://forum.avsim.net/topic/332919-...gine-flameout/






--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc-ra-cy) €“ a system of government where the least capable to
lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the
members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are
rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a
diminishing number of producers.

On 09/12/13 21:18, GB wrote:
On 09/12/2013 19:09, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 09/12/13 18:25, GB wrote:
The AAIB report indicates that the rotors were stationery. That's a bit
odd. Why would he have done that?

Perhaps he ran out of balsa wood an a sheet of A4 was all he had left?



I'm really cross. I stopped and thought about it for a moment. AND THEN
I STILL GOT IT WRONG! GRRRRRRR!

Can we have a petition to ban all homophones from the language?

Not unless you want to be stalked by Gay Pride.


--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc-ra-cy) €“ a system of government where the least capable to
lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the
members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are
rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a
diminishing number of producers.

On 09/12/2013 21:26, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 09/12/13 21:21, GB wrote:
On 09/12/2013 19:38, Nightjar wrote:

Ok...wouldn't that actually simply cause autorotation, and surely gas
turbines don't 'backfire'

If the compressor stalls, they can* and the noise will be similar.
However, the helicopter had an advanced engine management system that
should have prevented compressor stall.

* Airflow through the compressor is disrupted, compression stops or is
seriously reduced and air that has already been compressed reverses
direction and comes out of the intake. The engine will probably flame
out through lack of air and stop.

What would cause that to happen to both engines at the same time?

probably something pretty unusual. I have never heard of a turboprop
flaming out. A violent manoeuvre might do it I would suppose.

or maybe not..

http://forum.avsim.net/topic/332919-...gine-flameout/

Googling double engine flameout produces about 100k hits. One example
near the top of the list was the plane descending, throttled back in a
hail storm. The engines simply cooled down too much to stay alight.
http://www.airspacemag.com/flight-today/flameout.html

On 09/12/2013 21:21, GB wrote:
On 09/12/2013 19:38, Nightjar wrote:

Ok...wouldn't that actually simply cause autorotation, and surely gas
turbines don't 'backfire'

If the compressor stalls, they can* and the noise will be similar.
However, the helicopter had an advanced engine management system that
should have prevented compressor stall.

* Airflow through the compressor is disrupted, compression stops or is
seriously reduced and air that has already been compressed reverses
direction and comes out of the intake. The engine will probably flame
out through lack of air and stop.

What would cause that to happen to both engines at the same time?

We don't actually know that it did. In 1989 an aircraft crashed on the
approach to East Midlands airport after the crew shut down the wrong
engine in response to an emergency. They were not the first to make that
mistake.

However, assuming both compressors did stall, it would almost certainly
have to be something external. A bird strike is probably the most common
cause of compressor stall, but both engines would have involved a
multiple strike and that should have left evidence. Other possibilities
are severe air turbulence around the air intakes or ingesting some form
of contamination. Among its other faults, the Starfighter used to suffer
compressor stall after ingesting its own gun smoke.

Colin Bignell

On 09/12/2013 21:23, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 09/12/13 19:20, Nightjar wrote:
On 09/12/2013 16:58, The Natural Philosopher wrote:


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/1050...elicopter.html




This is getting weirder and weirder. No signs of at least one engine or
any gearbox failure.

The AAIB report does not actually say no engine failure, it only says no
major mechanical damage to the engines. There are other failure modes,
such as a flame out, which cannot yet be ruled out. The report of sounds
like a car backfire would be consistent with compressor stall,

Ah.. but would that stop the blades? I THOUGHT they had a sort of one
way clutch that would kick into autorotate.

It should allow the rotors to free wheel, but the pilot still needs
lower the pitch fairly quickly for autorotation to happen. If the revs
drop too far before he does that, the helicopter will simply drop like a
stone.

Maybe someone simply shot the pilot from the ground.

Except you would have thought they might have noticed that.

US police helicopters have armoured floors, because so many people do
shoot at them.

Colin Bignell

On 09/12/13 21:41, GB wrote:
On 09/12/2013 21:26, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 09/12/13 21:21, GB wrote:
On 09/12/2013 19:38, Nightjar wrote:

Ok...wouldn't that actually simply cause autorotation, and surely gas
turbines don't 'backfire'

If the compressor stalls, they can* and the noise will be similar.
However, the helicopter had an advanced engine management system that
should have prevented compressor stall.

* Airflow through the compressor is disrupted, compression stops or is
seriously reduced and air that has already been compressed reverses
direction and comes out of the intake. The engine will probably flame
out through lack of air and stop.

What would cause that to happen to both engines at the same time?

probably something pretty unusual. I have never heard of a turboprop
flaming out. A violent manoeuvre might do it I would suppose.

or maybe not..

http://forum.avsim.net/topic/332919-...gine-flameout/

Googling double engine flameout produces about 100k hits. One example
near the top of the list was the plane descending, throttled back in a
hail storm. The engines simply cooled down too much to stay alight.
http://www.airspacemag.com/flight-today/flameout.html



yeah I looked at case of helicopter flameouts and there seem to be two
essential reasons

- 1/. accidental fuel starvation.
- 2/. flying through oxygen depleted air - typically over a power
station stack or a bush fire.

Two further things seem to add weight to this..first of all auto or
manual re-ignition causes popping and banging.

Secondly if the pilot had attempted full collective to pull up (out of
autorotate?) it could have stalled and stopped the blades.

That's as close as I can get to a plausible scenario...



--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc-ra-cy) €“ a system of government where the least capable to
lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the
members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are
rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a
diminishing number of producers.

On 09/12/2013 21:47, Nightjar wrote:
On 09/12/2013 21:21, GB wrote:
On 09/12/2013 19:38, Nightjar wrote:

Ok...wouldn't that actually simply cause autorotation, and surely gas
turbines don't 'backfire'

If the compressor stalls, they can* and the noise will be similar.
However, the helicopter had an advanced engine management system that
should have prevented compressor stall.

* Airflow through the compressor is disrupted, compression stops or is
seriously reduced and air that has already been compressed reverses
direction and comes out of the intake. The engine will probably flame
out through lack of air and stop.

What would cause that to happen to both engines at the same time?

We don't actually know that it did. In 1989 an aircraft crashed on the
approach to East Midlands airport after the crew shut down the wrong
engine in response to an emergency. They were not the first to make that
mistake.

However, assuming both compressors did stall, it would almost certainly
have to be something external. A bird strike is probably the most common
cause of compressor stall, but both engines would have involved a
multiple strike and that should have left evidence. Other possibilities
are severe air turbulence around the air intakes or ingesting some form
of contamination. Among its other faults, the Starfighter used to suffer
compressor stall after ingesting its own gun smoke.

Amongst .....

German Starfighter crashes

A total of 298 German F-104 Starfighter were lost in accidents, losses
on the ground and damaged beyond repair (including MAP F-104G serial
number 62-12312)
with the tragic death of 116 pilots, but 171 pilots ejected safely, 8
pilots ejected twice

There's a list of the crashes here.
http://www.916-starfighter.de/GAF_crashes.htm

How did they persuade people to fly them?

Perhaps time to mandate a Pilot Voice recorder - built into the helmet.
Recording time could be short - always recording last 2 minutes. Saves on
high G force. Wouldn't cost much.



--

DerbyBorn

On Monday, December 9, 2013 4:58:27 PM UTC, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
This is getting weirder and weirder. No signs of at least one engine

That'll be the scrappers :-)

Owain

On 09/12/2013 22:53, DerbyBorn wrote:

Perhaps time to mandate a Pilot Voice recorder - built into the helmet.
Recording time could be short - always recording last 2 minutes. Saves on
high G force. Wouldn't cost much.

For single pilot aircraft, it probably won't record much that isn't on a
recording at ATC either.

Reputedly, the most common phrase on modern airliner CRVs is 'I wonder
why it did that' or variants.

Colin Bignell

Does not make sense, as far as i know you just cannot have a case where the
rotors stop, for a start there is a lot of inertia to remove. if the hub
just stopped then they would break off.
Brian

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"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/1050...elicopter.html

This is getting weirder and weirder. No signs of at least one engine or
any gearbox failure.



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of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are rewarded
with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a
diminishing number of producers.

The thing is though, you cannot just stop the rotors, as I said earlier it
would take time to do that, and as it was not that high, there was no time,
so I'd suggest that bit was wrong.
Brian

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"GB" wrote in message
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On 09/12/2013 18:18, Bob Henson wrote:
On 09/12/2013 5:01 PM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 09/12/13 16:58, The Natural Philosopher wrote:


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/1050...elicopter.html


This is getting weirder and weirder. No signs of at least one engine or
any gearbox failure.



http://www.aaib.gov.uk/cms_resources...-SPAO%20v2.pdf

is the actual preliminary report.



The PM on the pilot may be more conclusive. The fact that the crash was
so sudden that no mayday call was made, and that no attempt to miss the
building was made, would, in the absence of obvious catastrophic
mechanical failure, indicate something like a heart attack.


The AAIB report indicates that the rotors were stationery. That's a bit
odd. Why would he have done that?

On 10/12/2013 00:04, Brian Gaff wrote:
The thing is though, you cannot just stop the rotors, as I said earlier it
would take time to do that, and as it was not that high, there was no time,
so I'd suggest that bit was wrong.

The AAIB wouldn't have included that statement in their preliminary
report unless they were 100% certain about it.

Colin Bignell

On 09/12/13 22:25, GB wrote:
German Starfighter crashes

A total of 298 German F-104 Starfighter were lost in accidents, losses
on the ground and damaged beyond repair (including MAP F-104G serial
number 62-12312)
with the tragic death of 116 pilots, but 171 pilots ejected safely, 8
pilots ejected twice

There's a list of the crashes here.
http://www.916-starfighter.de/GAF_crashes.htm

How did they persuade people to fly them?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w1AbEFosgtE

about 31 minutes in...

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Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc-ra-cy) €“ a system of government where the least capable to
lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the
members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are
rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a
diminishing number of producers.

"Bob Henson" wrote in message
...
On 09/12/2013 5:01 PM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 09/12/13 16:58, The Natural Philosopher wrote:


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/1050...elicopter.html


This is getting weirder and weirder. No signs of at least one engine or
any gearbox failure.



http://www.aaib.gov.uk/cms_resources...-SPAO%20v2.pdf

is the actual preliminary report.



The PM on the pilot may be more conclusive. The fact that the crash was
so sudden that no mayday call was made, and that no attempt to miss the
building was made, would, in the absence of obvious catastrophic
mechanical failure, indicate something like a heart attack.

Or maybe instrument failure.
One depends on them in bad vis.

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
On 09/12/13 18:34, Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Mon, 09 Dec 2013 17:01:28 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

This is getting weirder and weirder. No signs of at least one
engine or
any gearbox failure.

http://www.aaib.gov.uk/cms_resources...-SPAO%20v2.pdf

is the actual preliminary report.

Ta, saves me wandering over to get the story from the horses mouth
without the mejia filter in place.

Most odd, apart from fuel starvation. Crud in the fuel and/or tank
blocked filter. Would fit with the witness report of loud misfiring,
silence and nothing going round on impact.

Ok...wouldn't that actually simply cause autorotation, and surely gas
turbines don't 'backfire'


Maybe a bird strike.
Many accidents are caused by two coincidal faults/occurances.