I built a pond some dozen years ago. The water, fed from the circulating pump, drops a couple of feet over some stone blocks and then runs 3ft over crazy paving type slab stone bedded into traditional mortar into the pond.

Time, water and frost have had their go at this bedding and attention is needed to re-set all these stones.

What should I use ?

Thanks
Rob

On Sunday, 2 March 2014 14:32:00 UTC, robgraham wrote:
I built a pond some dozen years ago. The water, fed from the circulating pump, drops a couple of feet over some stone blocks and then runs 3ft over crazy paving type slab stone bedded into traditional mortar into the pond.



Time, water and frost have had their go at this bedding and attention is needed to re-set all these stones.



What should I use ?

12 years? how long do you want it to last this time?

maybe a stronger mix?

Jim K

"robgraham" wrote in message
...
I built a pond some dozen years ago. The water, fed from the circulating
pump, drops a couple of feet over some stone blocks and then runs 3ft over
crazy paving type slab stone bedded into traditional mortar into the pond.

Time, water and frost have had their go at this bedding and attention is
needed to re-set all these stones.

What should I use ?


Well you need a substantial concrete base, not cheap. Think of the weight
of the water.
But you will have to start again. I don't think the existing will be
fixable.

Best bet this time is a butyl pool liner.
Put a double layer using scraps over the edge where exposed to sunlight for
max life.
Repairs are possible.

On Sunday, March 2, 2014 5:21:53 PM UTC, harry wrote:
"robgraham" wrote in message

...

I built a pond some dozen years ago. The water, fed from the circulating

pump, drops a couple of feet over some stone blocks and then runs 3ft over

crazy paving type slab stone bedded into traditional mortar into the pond.



Time, water and frost have had their go at this bedding and attention is

needed to re-set all these stones.



What should I use ?





Well you need a substantial concrete base, not cheap. Think of the weight

of the water.

But you will have to start again. I don't think the existing will be

fixable.



Best bet this time is a butyl pool liner.

Put a double layer using scraps over the edge where exposed to sunlight for

max life.

Repairs are possible.

Come on guys - it wasn't that badly worded; the problem is the bed of the stream from the waterfall into the pond, not the pond itself. Surely there is cement that will tolerate being wet and getting some frost into it; and making ordinary mortar stronger makes it more brittle and therefore more sensitive to damp and frost, doesn't it.

Rob

"robgraham" wrote in message
...
On Sunday, March 2, 2014 5:21:53 PM UTC, harry wrote:
"robgraham" wrote in message

...

I built a pond some dozen years ago. The water, fed from the circulating

pump, drops a couple of feet over some stone blocks and then runs 3ft
over

crazy paving type slab stone bedded into traditional mortar into the
pond.



Time, water and frost have had their go at this bedding and attention is

needed to re-set all these stones.



What should I use ?





Well you need a substantial concrete base, not cheap. Think of the weight

of the water.

But you will have to start again. I don't think the existing will be

fixable.



Best bet this time is a butyl pool liner.

Put a double layer using scraps over the edge where exposed to sunlight
for

max life.

Repairs are possible.

Come on guys - it wasn't that badly worded; the problem is the bed of the
stream from the waterfall into the pond, not the pond itself. Surely there
is cement that will tolerate being wet and getting some frost into it; and
making ordinary mortar stronger makes it more brittle and therefore more
sensitive to damp and frost, doesn't it.

Rob

Well a stream bed is even worse. You have a long thin inflexible structure.
The slightest ground movement will caus cracks to form, (esp if you have
boulders incorporated) frost gets in and bingo, it breaks up.

If you look at properly built one, it is on a reinforced concrete slab so no
movement/cracking is possible.
All expensive, so people resort to channels formed out of bits of plastic or
rubber, looks like ****. My neighbour has one.

The other thing is fibre glass, homemade or bought. But again looks like
**** as it's true nature can't be hidden.
And not totally weather proof either.

So most people avoid babbling brooks or keep them very short. Unless they
got loads-a-dosh. Or the real McCoy.

There aren't many replies because there are no real solutions, not people
being awkward.

On Monday, March 3, 2014 6:49:07 PM UTC, robgraham wrote:
On Sunday, March 2, 2014 5:21:53 PM UTC, harry wrote:

"robgraham" wrote in message



...



I built a pond some dozen years ago. The water, fed from the circulating



pump, drops a couple of feet over some stone blocks and then runs 3ft over



crazy paving type slab stone bedded into traditional mortar into the pond.







Time, water and frost have had their go at this bedding and attention is



needed to re-set all these stones.







What should I use ?











Well you need a substantial concrete base, not cheap. Think of the weight



of the water.



But you will have to start again. I don't think the existing will be



fixable.







Best bet this time is a butyl pool liner.



Put a double layer using scraps over the edge where exposed to sunlight for



max life.



Repairs are possible.



Come on guys - it wasn't that badly worded; the problem is the bed of the stream from the waterfall into the pond, not the pond itself. Surely there is cement that will tolerate being wet and getting some frost into it; and making ordinary mortar stronger makes it more brittle and therefore more sensitive to damp and frost, doesn't it.



Rob

If it will overcoat G4 sealer, wear a mask its moisture cured polyurethane....

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Pond-paint-S.../dp/B003ZGE16A

for extended life, 150+years Pulhamite

http://pulham.org.uk

On Tuesday, March 4, 2014 8:42:25 AM UTC, harry wrote:
"robgraham" wrote in message

...

On Sunday, March 2, 2014 5:21:53 PM UTC, harry wrote:

"robgraham" wrote in message



...



I built a pond some dozen years ago. The water, fed from the circulating



pump, drops a couple of feet over some stone blocks and then runs 3ft

over



crazy paving type slab stone bedded into traditional mortar into the

pond.







Time, water and frost have had their go at this bedding and attention is



needed to re-set all these stones.







What should I use ?











Well you need a substantial concrete base, not cheap. Think of the weight



of the water.



But you will have to start again. I don't think the existing will be



fixable.







Best bet this time is a butyl pool liner.



Put a double layer using scraps over the edge where exposed to sunlight

for



max life.



Repairs are possible.



Come on guys - it wasn't that badly worded; the problem is the bed of the

stream from the waterfall into the pond, not the pond itself. Surely there

is cement that will tolerate being wet and getting some frost into it; and

making ordinary mortar stronger makes it more brittle and therefore more

sensitive to damp and frost, doesn't it.



Rob



Well a stream bed is even worse. You have a long thin inflexible structure.

The slightest ground movement will caus cracks to form, (esp if you have

boulders incorporated) frost gets in and bingo, it breaks up.



If you look at properly built one, it is on a reinforced concrete slab so no

movement/cracking is possible.

All expensive, so people resort to channels formed out of bits of plastic or

rubber, looks like ****. My neighbour has one.



The other thing is fibre glass, homemade or bought. But again looks like

**** as it's true nature can't be hidden.

And not totally weather proof either.



So most people avoid babbling brooks or keep them very short. Unless they

got loads-a-dosh. Or the real McCoy.



There aren't many replies because there are no real solutions, not people

being awkward.

Thanks guys - I looked at the G4 product and saw a review that put me to a UK company Antel who possibly make a better product; I've put the question to them.

Harry - your point is absolutely right, and it may be that a dozen or so years is as much as I'm going to get before re-bedding has to take place. But before I did so, I did wonder if there was something better for this than ordinary mortar. It does surprise me somewhat that there isn't, and I think I'll cast my net a bit wider before I set to on the task.

On 05/03/2014 10:26, robgraham wrote:
On Tuesday, March 4, 2014 8:42:25 AM UTC, harry wrote:
"robgraham" wrote in message

...

On Sunday, March 2, 2014 5:21:53 PM UTC, harry wrote:

"robgraham" wrote in message



...



I built a pond some dozen years ago. The water, fed from the circulating
pump, drops a couple of feet over some stone blocks and then runs 3ft
over
crazy paving type slab stone bedded into traditional mortar into the
pond.

Time, water and frost have had their go at this bedding and attention is
needed to re-set all these stones.

What should I use ?

Well you need a substantial concrete base, not cheap. Think of the weight
of the water.

But you will have to start again. I don't think the existing will be
fixable.

Best bet this time is a butyl pool liner.

Put a double layer using scraps over the edge where exposed to sunlight
for
max life.

Repairs are possible.



Come on guys - it wasn't that badly worded; the problem is the bed of the
stream from the waterfall into the pond, not the pond itself. Surely there
is cement that will tolerate being wet and getting some frost into it; and
making ordinary mortar stronger makes it more brittle and therefore more
sensitive to damp and frost, doesn't it.

Also you have to consider any fish you want in the pond. They don't like
fresh concrete all that much. Even most natural stones don't tolerate
getting water in cracks and freeze thaw action.

The stuff sold fr making the lower parts of walls waterproof - mostly
sodium silicate might provide some additional water resistance but I
suspect your fish will suffer badly for it.

Consider doing it dry stone walling style with loose rocks?

Anything rigid is sure to break up unless on stout foundations.


Well a stream bed is even worse. You have a long thin inflexible structure.
The slightest ground movement will caus cracks to form, (esp if you have
boulders incorporated) frost gets in and bingo, it breaks up.

If you look at properly built one, it is on a reinforced concrete slab so no
movement/cracking is possible.
All expensive, so people resort to channels formed out of bits of plastic or
rubber, looks like ****. My neighbour has one.

The other thing is fibre glass, homemade or bought. But again looks like
**** as it's true nature can't be hidden.

And not totally weather proof either.

So most people avoid babbling brooks or keep them very short. Unless they
got loads-a-dosh. Or the real McCoy.

There aren't many replies because there are no real solutions, not people
being awkward.

Thanks guys - I looked at the G4 product and saw a review that put me to a UK company Antel who possibly make a better product; I've put the question to them.

Harry - your point is absolutely right, and it may be that a dozen or so years is as much as I'm going to get before re-bedding has to take place. But before I did so, I did wonder if there was something better for this than ordinary mortar. It does surprise me somewhat that there isn't, and I think I'll cast my net a bit wider before I set to on the task.

If you can get hold of it (and for a price) then Ucrete ought to last up
under these conditions. It is a tough waterproof polyurethane concrete
hybrid mix generally used for food safe areas today.

http://www.basf-cc.com.jo/en/product...s/default.aspx

Our old pond waterfall was done with a sheet of lead thick enough to be
self supporting as the spout.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

On Tuesday, March 4, 2014 8:42:25 AM UTC, harry wrote:
Well a stream bed is even worse. You have a long thin inflexible structure.
The slightest ground movement will caus cracks to form, (esp if you have
boulders incorporated) frost gets in and bingo, it breaks up.

If you look at properly built one, it is on a reinforced concrete slab so no
movement/cracking is possible.

The other thing is fibre glass, homemade or bought. But again looks like
**** as it's true nature can't be hidden. And not totally weather proof
either.

How about fibre-reinforced mortar?

On 02/03/14 14:32, robgraham wrote:
I built a pond some dozen years ago. The water, fed from the circulating pump, drops a couple of feet over some stone blocks and then runs 3ft over crazy paving type slab stone bedded into traditional mortar into the pond.

Time, water and frost have had their go at this bedding and attention is needed to re-set all these stones.

What should I use ?

Thanks
Rob



Another way is to strip the stones up, lay some butyl pond liner on a
bed of soft sand, and then set the rocks/slabs on top. Any loose or
difficult to set stones can be held in place and to each other with
expanding foam[1] with a sprinkling of dirt over it to disguise.


[1] There's a special pond/waterfall type - black and UV resistant.

In article ,
Martin Brown wrote:

Our old pond waterfall was done with a sheet of lead thick enough to be
self supporting as the spout.

Ooh - LEAD! There's an idea!

I've been following this thread with great interest, as I'm actually in
the process of creating a waterfall in my pond (that I originally made
about 15 years ago,and which undergoes renovations- redesigns-
improvements every couple of years).

My own solution to Rob's original point has so far (I haven't finished
the waterfall yet) been to use ordinary concrete mortar: *very thick*
ordinary concrete mortar. I might use the lead solution in some way as
well (I've seen this used in installations over the years and had
forgotten about it.)

Now someone will come along and say "Go ahead: give all your
frogs/newts/pondlife lead poisoning".

John

On Wednesday, March 5, 2014 10:26:17 AM UTC, robgraham wrote:
It does surprise me somewhat that there isn't, and I think I'll cast my net a bit wider before I set to on the task.

Pulhamite restoration is a good starting place

http://www.helm.org.uk/guidance-libr...dpulhamite.pdf

"Martin Brown" wrote in message
...
On 05/03/2014 10:26, robgraham wrote:
On Tuesday, March 4, 2014 8:42:25 AM UTC, harry wrote:
"robgraham" wrote in message

...

On Sunday, March 2, 2014 5:21:53 PM UTC, harry wrote:

"robgraham" wrote in message



...



I built a pond some dozen years ago. The water, fed from the
circulating
pump, drops a couple of feet over some stone blocks and then runs 3ft
over
crazy paving type slab stone bedded into traditional mortar into the
pond.

Time, water and frost have had their go at this bedding and attention
is
needed to re-set all these stones.

What should I use ?

Well you need a substantial concrete base, not cheap. Think of the
weight
of the water.

But you will have to start again. I don't think the existing will be
fixable.

Best bet this time is a butyl pool liner.

Put a double layer using scraps over the edge where exposed to sunlight
for
max life.

Repairs are possible.



Come on guys - it wasn't that badly worded; the problem is the bed of
the
stream from the waterfall into the pond, not the pond itself. Surely
there
is cement that will tolerate being wet and getting some frost into it;
and
making ordinary mortar stronger makes it more brittle and therefore more
sensitive to damp and frost, doesn't it.

Also you have to consider any fish you want in the pond. They don't like
fresh concrete all that much. Even most natural stones don't tolerate
getting water in cracks and freeze thaw action.

You can get special pond paint for concrete ponds (OK for fish).
I painted my pond & added fish, it was OK.

"Another John" wrote in message
]...
In article ,
Martin Brown wrote:

Our old pond waterfall was done with a sheet of lead thick enough to be
self supporting as the spout.

Ooh - LEAD! There's an idea!

I've been following this thread with great interest, as I'm actually in
the process of creating a waterfall in my pond (that I originally made
about 15 years ago,and which undergoes renovations- redesigns-
improvements every couple of years).

My own solution to Rob's original point has so far (I haven't finished
the waterfall yet) been to use ordinary concrete mortar: *very thick*
ordinary concrete mortar. I might use the lead solution in some way as
well (I've seen this used in installations over the years and had
forgotten about it.)

Now someone will come along and say "Go ahead: give all your
frogs/newts/pondlife lead poisoning".


It will too.
Haven't you noticed the lack of mosses around lead flashing?
You can use bits of rigid plastic.

On 06/03/2014 08:02, harryagain wrote:
"Another John" wrote in message
]...
In article ,
Martin Brown wrote:

Our old pond waterfall was done with a sheet of lead thick enough to be
self supporting as the spout.

Ooh - LEAD! There's an idea!

I've been following this thread with great interest, as I'm actually in
the process of creating a waterfall in my pond (that I originally made
about 15 years ago,and which undergoes renovations- redesigns-
improvements every couple of years).

My own solution to Rob's original point has so far (I haven't finished
the waterfall yet) been to use ordinary concrete mortar: *very thick*
ordinary concrete mortar. I might use the lead solution in some way as
well (I've seen this used in installations over the years and had
forgotten about it.)

Now someone will come along and say "Go ahead: give all your
frogs/newts/pondlife lead poisoning".

It will too.

Didn't seem to bother our fish at all. In fact they were happy enough to
reproduce which was fun because tiny goldfish fry are brown.

I have known careless use of fresh concrete kill fish.

Haven't you noticed the lack of mosses around lead flashing?

Unless the water is very soft the lead just forms an impermeable lead
oxide/carbonate/hydroxide layer and then settles down. The same way as
it used to do in domestic lead water pipes back in the good old days
when plumbing really meant what it said on the tin.

You can use bits of rigid plastic.

Lead sheet is much easier to work with and looks better.
(heavy to handle and expensive though)

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

On 06/03/2014 08:00, harryagain wrote:
"Martin Brown" wrote in message
...
On 05/03/2014 10:26, robgraham wrote:
On Tuesday, March 4, 2014 8:42:25 AM UTC, harry wrote:
"robgraham" wrote in message

...

On Sunday, March 2, 2014 5:21:53 PM UTC, harry wrote:

"robgraham" wrote in message



...



I built a pond some dozen years ago. The water, fed from the
circulating
pump, drops a couple of feet over some stone blocks and then runs 3ft
over
crazy paving type slab stone bedded into traditional mortar into the
pond.

Time, water and frost have had their go at this bedding and attention
is
needed to re-set all these stones.

What should I use ?

Well you need a substantial concrete base, not cheap. Think of the
weight
of the water.

But you will have to start again. I don't think the existing will be
fixable.

Best bet this time is a butyl pool liner.

Put a double layer using scraps over the edge where exposed to sunlight
for
max life.

Repairs are possible.



Come on guys - it wasn't that badly worded; the problem is the bed of
the
stream from the waterfall into the pond, not the pond itself. Surely
there
is cement that will tolerate being wet and getting some frost into it;
and
making ordinary mortar stronger makes it more brittle and therefore more
sensitive to damp and frost, doesn't it.

Also you have to consider any fish you want in the pond. They don't like
fresh concrete all that much. Even most natural stones don't tolerate
getting water in cracks and freeze thaw action.

You can get special pond paint for concrete ponds (OK for fish).
I painted my pond & added fish, it was OK.


Bondaglass-Voss (makers of G4) are experts on this sort of thing, but
alas they STILL don't have a website. Grrr

On Thu, 06 Mar 2014 09:25:45 +0000, stuart noble wrote:

You can get special pond paint for concrete ponds (OK for fish).
I painted my pond & added fish, it was OK.


Bondaglass-Voss (makers of G4) are experts on this sort of thing, but
alas they STILL don't have a website. Grrr

Not to be confused with G4S - that'd let the water escape!
--
Peter.
The gods will stay away
whilst religions hold sway