My neighbour has a Calor propane tank that is currently disconnected but it's full of propane. Calor will remove the tank but won't reimburse him for the gas. His gas supply is now from 19kg propane bottles. If he buys a flexi connector to connect the tank to a bottle, is there any reason why he won't be able to fill his propane bottles from the tank? I assume the pressure in the tank is not higher than the bottles so I can't think of a problem.

On 24/12/2013 12:44, Bodgit wrote:
My neighbour has a Calor propane tank that is currently disconnected but it's full of propane. Calor will remove the tank but won't reimburse him for the gas. His gas supply is now from 19kg propane bottles. If he buys a flexi connector to connect the tank to a bottle, is there any reason why he won't be able to fill his propane bottles from the tank? I assume the pressure in the tank is not higher than the bottles so I can't think of a problem.

The problem is that it is very easy to overfill the bottle, and can very
quickly damage the tap on the bottle. Self filling is one of the leading
reasons why I now have to check that the valve on *every* bottle I buy
does actually turn off the gas. It also bypasses the routine checking
that Calor do on their bottles.

--
Tciao for Now!

John.

I guess the best way to prevent overfilling would be to do it on a set of scales and only put about 10kg in.

So how does overfilling damage the valve?

Regarding the inspection, I suppose he could buy a bottle every so often.

On 24/12/2013 13:07, Bodgit wrote:
I guess the best way to prevent overfilling would be to do it on a set of scales and only put about 10kg in.

So how does overfilling damage the valve?

Its mopre the repeated filling that does it.

Regarding the inspection, I suppose he could buy a bottle every so often.

If he were to refill once, then return the bottle as normal in exchenge
for a full one, then there shouldn't be a problem, assuming, as I said
in my other reply, that he can actually get a liquid feed from the tank.
As Calor go to some lengths to ensure that no liquid can accidentally
come out of the tank via the mormal route, I cant see it working.

When you fill you car with LPG, the tank in the filling station is
designed to supply liquid, not gas, otherwise you'd only get a few yards
before running out.

--
Tciao for Now!

John.

In message ,
Bodgit writes
I guess the best way to prevent overfilling would be to do it on a set
of scales and only put about 10kg in.

Yes. Suggest he gets a full bottle and weighs it to give its target
weight.
So how does overfilling damage the valve?

By blowing the ****s out of it when the temperature rises. You will then
effectively have a dry land torpedo on your hands. You need to allow
ullage.
Regarding the inspection, I suppose he could buy a bottle every so often.

--
bert

On Tuesday, 24 December 2013 20:14:54 UTC, bert wrote:
In message ,

Bodgit writes

I guess the best way to prevent overfilling would be to do it on a set
of scales and only put about 10kg in.

So how does overfilling damage the valve?



By blowing the ****s out of it when the temperature rises. You will then
effectively have a dry land torpedo on your hands. You need to allow
ullage.

The main problem with getting a liquid out of it is that the top of the tank won't have liquid in it will be high pressure gas. And the 10 Kg he might be aiming for would be reached in 0 seconds flat.

What he needs is a 10 year old gifted at filled bike tyres at the local garage to guess the timing for him.

On 24/12/2013 12:44, Bodgit wrote:
My neighbour has a Calor propane tank that is currently disconnected but it's full of propane. Calor will remove the tank but won't reimburse him for the gas. His gas supply is now from 19kg propane bottles. If he buys a flexi connector to connect the tank to a bottle, is there any reason why he won't be able to fill his propane bottles from the tank? I assume the pressure in the tank is not higher than the bottles so I can't think of a problem.

Also, the gas tank will have a takeoff point at the top, to deliver gas
to the pipework, whereas to refill a propane bottle, you need a liquid
feed, so it won't work anyway.

--
Tciao for Now!

John.

The tank has a high pressure takeoff point (with the reverse thread) exactly the same as the one on the top of the bottle. The regulator has been removed, so I should think it should be possible.

On 24/12/2013 13:04, Bodgit wrote:
The tank has a high pressure takeoff point (with the reverse thread) exactly the same as the one on the top of the bottle. The regulator has been removed, so I should think it should be possible.

The high pressure takeoff at the top of the tank will only supply gas,
the only way to get the liquid feed you need to refill a propane bottle
is to be draw the liquid from the bottom of the tank.

--
Tciao for Now!

John.

Bodgit wrote:
The tank has a high pressure takeoff point (with the reverse thread)
exactly the same as the one on the top of the bottle. The regulator
has been removed, so I should think it should be possible.

From memory, I believe that propane bottles are filled with liquid propane
under a high pressure, and that then evaporates into a gas as the valve is
opened to feed the appliances. What you would be try is simply transfer gas
from one container into another at a relatively low pressure and no means of
venting the inert air from the bottle whuch isn't going to work
successfully.

Just out of curiosity, why can't the original tank be reconnect and the gas
used?

OK. Looks like it might be a nonstarter then! The tank is a long way from the house and all the steel pipework is all corroded so not easy to reconnect it.

On 24/12/13 13:40, Bodgit wrote:
OK. Looks like it might be a nonstarter then! The tank is a long way from the house and all the steel pipework is all corroded so not easy to reconnect it.

I've no idea how much a tank of propane is worth, but flexible hose is
easily available up to 50m lengths, eg
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/LPG-High-p...-/120667671965

In message ,
Bodgit writes
The tank has a high pressure takeoff point (with the reverse thread)
exactly the same as the one on the top of the bottle. The regulator has
been removed, so I should think it should be possible.
Pressure is a parameter of propane not the tank. It will be the same on
the bottle. You will need a pump of some sort. You can get them but I'm
a bit out of touch with LPG now so can't suggest a source.
--
bert

On Tue, 24 Dec 2013 04:44:59 -0800, Bodgit wrote:

My neighbour has a Calor propane tank that is currently disconnected but
it's full of propane. Calor will remove the tank but won't reimburse him
for the gas.

Odd. FloGas would repay 50% of "new" value for any gas remaining in the
tank when they took our old one away. I'm sure Calor said they do
likewise.

On 24/12/2013 12:44, Bodgit wrote:

My neighbour has a Calor propane tank that is currently disconnected
but it's full of propane. Calor will remove the tank but won't
reimburse him for the gas. His gas supply is now from 19kg propane
bottles. If he buys a flexi connector to connect the tank to a
bottle, is there any reason why he won't be able to fill his propane
bottles from the tank? I assume the pressure in the tank is not
higher than the bottles so I can't think of a problem.

His easiest solution would be a find a way to temporarily connect and
use the content in the normal way. To transfer propane you would need to
draw it from the bottom of the big tank so that you get the liquefied PG
gas and not gaseous phase PG. With a bottle, one can do this by
inverting it. Probably not so easy with an installed tank.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 24/12/2013 13:56, John Rumm wrote:
On 24/12/2013 12:44, Bodgit wrote:

My neighbour has a Calor propane tank that is currently disconnected
but it's full of propane. Calor will remove the tank but won't
reimburse him for the gas. His gas supply is now from 19kg propane
bottles. If he buys a flexi connector to connect the tank to a
bottle, is there any reason why he won't be able to fill his propane
bottles from the tank? I assume the pressure in the tank is not
higher than the bottles so I can't think of a problem.

His easiest solution would be a find a way to temporarily connect and
use the content in the normal way. To transfer propane you would need to
draw it from the bottom of the big tank so that you get the liquefied PG
gas and not gaseous phase PG. With a bottle, one can do this by
inverting it. Probably not so easy with an installed tank.


If you do a "top to top" connection, but chill the recipient tank so
that it is significantly cooler than the source, propane should distill
over as vapour and condense in the former as liquid. The transfer rate
will depend on cooling capacity of the "chiller". It's probably
breaching any number of regulations. My gut feeling is that a "freezer"
would work, a "fridge" would not be so effective. It's trivial to
estimate the transfer rate by weighing the filled cylinder.

Not really a serious suggestion, just a statement of principle. You
*really* don't want to spill liquid propane and then get a vapour cloud
explosion.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Los_Alfaques_disaster

This was propylene rather than propane, but the principle is the same.

On Tue, 24 Dec 2013 04:44:59 -0800 (PST), Bodgit wrote:

My neighbour has a Calor propane tank that is currently disconnected but
it's full of propane.

How "full" is full?

Calor will remove the tank but won't reimburse him for the gas.

Do they remove the tank for free? Maybe they use the gas recovered
and resold to cover that cost.

If he buys a flexi connector to connect the tank to a bottle, is there
any reason why he won't be able to fill his propane bottles from the
tank?

As others have said both connections only deal with gas to make an
effective transfer you need to move the liquid. This has to be done
under high pressure to keep the liquid liquid, that's always assuming
you can get at the liquid gas in the bulk tank, which I doubt.

As you say further on both the bulk and small bottles have the same
connector why not just connect the bulk tank in place of the bottle
until it runs out? Is the old old LP pipe suitable for HP (still leak
check it mind). How far is it? Long lengths of new high pressure hose
are frowned on but ...

--
Cheers
Dave.

"Dave Liquorice" wrote in message
ll.co.uk...
On Tue, 24 Dec 2013 04:44:59 -0800 (PST), Bodgit wrote:

My neighbour has a Calor propane tank that is currently disconnected but
it's full of propane.

How "full" is full?

Calor will remove the tank but won't reimburse him for the gas.

Do they remove the tank for free? Maybe they use the gas recovered
and resold to cover that cost.

If he buys a flexi connector to connect the tank to a bottle, is there
any reason why he won't be able to fill his propane bottles from the
tank?

As others have said both connections only deal with gas to make an
effective transfer you need to move the liquid. This has to be done
under high pressure to keep the liquid liquid, that's always assuming
you can get at the liquid gas in the bulk tank, which I doubt.

As you say further on both the bulk and small bottles have the same
connector why not just connect the bulk tank in place of the bottle
until it runs out? Is the old old LP pipe suitable for HP (still leak
check it mind). How far is it? Long lengths of new high pressure hose
are frowned on but ...


He would need a pressure reducing valve on the tank.

Bodgit wrote:
My neighbour has a Calor propane tank that is currently disconnected but
it's full of propane. Calor will remove the tank but won't reimburse him
for the gas. His gas supply is now from 19kg propane bottles. If he buys
a flexi connector to connect the tank to a bottle, is there any reason
why he won't be able to fill his propane bottles from the tank? I assume
the pressure in the tank is not higher than the bottles so I can't think of a problem.

Simplest answer would be to find someone to reconnect it.

Tim

Bodgit wrote:
My neighbour has a Calor propane tank that is currently disconnected but
it's full of propane. Calor will remove the tank but won't reimburse him
for the gas. His gas supply is now from 19kg propane bottles. If he buys
a flexi connector to connect the tank to a bottle, is there any reason
why he won't be able to fill his propane bottles from the tank? I assume
the pressure in the tank is not higher than the bottles so I can't think
of a problem.

Simplest answer would be to find someone to reconnect it.

Tim


I agree, A temporary low pressure pipe wouldn't be that expensive to hook
up.

Why use bottled gas anyway? Bulk is cheaper.

BTW you can buy refillable propane cylinders, and get them re filled from
the same place that refuels LPG cars.

Mike

On Tue, 24 Dec 2013 15:35:34 -0000, Muddymike wrote:

I agree, A temporary low pressure pipe wouldn't be that expensive to
hook up.

OP says the regulator has been removed...

Of course one could get another and run new temporary LP hose to the
system and bypass the regulator there. Probably better than a long HP
run.

--
Cheers
Dave.

On Tuesday, December 24, 2013 3:35:34 PM UTC, Muddymike wrote:
Bodgit wrote:

My neighbour has a Calor propane tank that is currently disconnected but

it's full of propane. Calor will remove the tank but won't reimburse him

for the gas. His gas supply is now from 19kg propane bottles. If he buys

a flexi connector to connect the tank to a bottle, is there any reason

why he won't be able to fill his propane bottles from the tank? I assume

the pressure in the tank is not higher than the bottles so I can't think

of a problem.



Simplest answer would be to find someone to reconnect it.



Tim





I agree, A temporary low pressure pipe wouldn't be that expensive to hook

up.

The problem is that the tank is about 200m away from the house and there is a road in between! Replacing the pipework, even temporarily would require digging up the road and about 30m of tarmac.



Why use bottled gas anyway? Bulk is cheaper.



BTW you can buy refillable propane cylinders, and get them re filled from

the same place that refuels LPG cars.



Mike

On Tuesday, 24 December 2013 17:56:40 UTC, Bodgit wrote:
On Tuesday, December 24, 2013 3:35:34 PM UTC, Muddymike wrote:

Bodgit wrote:



My neighbour has a Calor propane tank that is currently disconnected but



it's full of propane. Calor will remove the tank but won't reimburse him



for the gas. His gas supply is now from 19kg propane bottles. If he buys



a flexi connector to connect the tank to a bottle, is there any reason



why he won't be able to fill his propane bottles from the tank? I assume



the pressure in the tank is not higher than the bottles so I can't think



of a problem.







Simplest answer would be to find someone to reconnect it.







Tim











I agree, A temporary low pressure pipe wouldn't be that expensive to hook



up.



The problem is that the tank is about 200m away from the house and there is a road in between! Replacing the pipework, even temporarily would require digging up the road and about 30m of tarmac.


is it really his?

Jim K

Bodgit wrote:
On Tuesday, December 24, 2013 3:35:34 PM UTC, Muddymike wrote:
Bodgit wrote:

My neighbour has a Calor propane tank that is currently disconnected but

it's full of propane. Calor will remove the tank but won't reimburse him

for the gas. His gas supply is now from 19kg propane bottles. If he buys

a flexi connector to connect the tank to a bottle, is there any reason

why he won't be able to fill his propane bottles from the tank? I assume

the pressure in the tank is not higher than the bottles so I can't think

of a problem.



Simplest answer would be to find someone to reconnect it.



Tim





I agree, A temporary low pressure pipe wouldn't be that expensive to hook

up.

The problem is that the tank is about 200m away from the house and there
is a road in between!

Sounds like it would be easier to move the tank closer!

Seriously, if your neighbour has the kind of property with a 200m garden
(with a road), I'm surprised he worried about a bit of leftover gas.

Tim

On Tue, 24 Dec 2013 19:37:25 +0000 (UTC), Tim+ wrote:

Seriously, if your neighbour has the kind of property with a 200m garden
(with a road), I'm surprised he worried about a bit of leftover gas.

Tenant farmer? In which case I'm surprised he hasn't simply put the
forks of a front loader under it and moved it closer...

If bulk LPG is 3/4 the price of oil a full tank is not far short of
£1000...

--
Cheers
Dave.

Bodgit wrote:

My neighbour has a Calor propane tank that is currently disconnected
but
it's full of propane. Calor will remove the tank but won't reimburse
him
for the gas.

Yup, calor can be cnuts like that,
tried to charge me the road rate for a fill of gas for my motorhomes tank
the only time i ever got a fill at a calor depot,
bloke wouldnt believe my tank was a vapor take off tank purely for the
heating and cooking appliances, despite it being red, indicating a vapor
take off tank, not black that denotes a liquid take off, having a visible
POL valve with a vapor regulator, and the engine being diesel.

His gas supply is now from 19kg propane bottles.

jeysus, i assume he's only just started this, he'll soon regret it when he
compares the price of the gas in those bottles (i think it's about 32 litres
of liquid gas in them, allowing for the ullage space etc,)

I agree, A temporary low pressure pipe wouldn't be that expensive to hook
up.

The problem is that the tank is about 200m away from the house and there
is a road in between!
Replacing the pipework, even temporarily would require digging up the road
and about 30m of tarmac.

So, who owns the tank? him or calor,

if calor then he is renting the tank, and now cant use it so should be able
to persuade them to renew the pipework to allow him to continue to buy 500
quid or so of gas every few months off them???

If it's his tank, then as others have said, why not pick it up and move it
the other side of the road, then connect it back up using a length flexi
hose, he already has the regulator needed on his 19 kg bottles as the POL
valve is universal on all propane bottles/tanks, where as butane can be many
different types and sizes, (actually, i did hear once that flo gas used a
slightly smaller thread in the POL style valve onthsir propane cylinders,
but they gave away the regulator to fit when you began renting bottles from
them)

OR, is the pipe deffo corroded under the road? i.e. could he cut out the
corroded parts of the pipe, hoping that the length under the road is sound
and either put in new lengths of steel pipe, or flexi pipe just to allow him
to use the gas in the tank he's paid for.

obviously pressure test the pipe run and locate the leaking parts first,

On Tuesday, December 24, 2013 12:44:59 PM UTC, Bodgit wrote:
My neighbour has a Calor propane tank that is currently disconnected but
it's full of propane. Calor will remove the tank but won't reimburse
him for the gas.

If the tank caught fire, would the house insurance cover the gas?

Or wait until the spring and attach a hose to the tank for use with a garden flame-thrower etc.

Owain

On Tue, 24 Dec 2013 09:23:04 -0800, spuorgelgoog wrote:

My neighbour has a Calor propane tank that is currently disconnected
but it's full of propane. Calor will remove the tank but won't
reimburse him for the gas.

If the tank caught fire, would the house insurance cover the gas?

I don't think I'd like to find out what happens with a thousand litres of
LPG goes up.

"Bodgit" wrote in message
...
My neighbour has a Calor propane tank that is currently disconnected but
it's full of propane. Calor will remove the tank but won't reimburse him for
the gas. His gas supply is now from 19kg propane bottles. If he buys a flexi
connector to connect the tank to a bottle, is there any reason why he won't
be able to fill his propane bottles from the tank? I assume the pressure in
the tank is not higher than the bottles so I can't think of a problem.

The problem is the gas is stored as a liquid.
It is used domestically by gassing off the propane with a top connection.

To get the liquid out to fill a cylinder you need either a dip tube or a
bottom connection which you won't have.

Liquid ((for ICE fuel tanks etc) is usually transferred by means of a pump
to speed things up.
In this case the special tank with bottom connection is provided.

The normal flexi connector BTW is for gas, not liquid transfer.
For liquid you need a special high pressure hose and connectors.

In message , harryagain
writes

"Bodgit" wrote in message
...
My neighbour has a Calor propane tank that is currently disconnected but
it's full of propane. Calor will remove the tank but won't reimburse him for
the gas. His gas supply is now from 19kg propane bottles. If he buys a flexi
connector to connect the tank to a bottle, is there any reason why he won't
be able to fill his propane bottles from the tank? I assume the pressure in
the tank is not higher than the bottles so I can't think of a problem.

The problem is the gas is stored as a liquid.
It is used domestically by gassing off the propane with a top connection.

To get the liquid out to fill a cylinder you need either a dip tube or a
bottom connection which you won't have.

ISTR they are liquid filled from the bottom If so there is a connector.
Liquid ((for ICE fuel tanks etc) is usually transferred by means of a pump
to speed things up.
In this case the special tank with bottom connection is provided.

The normal flexi connector BTW is for gas, not liquid transfer.
For liquid you need a special high pressure hose and connectors.



--
bert

On Tue, 24 Dec 2013 20:22:36 +0000, bert ] wrote:

ISTR they are liquid filled from the bottom If so there is a connector.

Yes this was my understanding, at least with the bulk tank used for
refilling hot air balloons.

The propane bottles in my Land Rover have a float of some sort to
prevent filling more than 70%. While one can easily decant propane
just by using gravity other than weighing I don't see how to stop
overfilling but this does not overcome the necessary forward pressure
for the check valve in a vehicle.

As newshound says you can transfer vapour between tanks by having one
warmer than the other, I never tried it (excise offence) but with
suitable adapters one could use gas from 47kg bottles to fill the
vehicle cylinders over night, the 47kg bottle wrapped in an electric
blanket, again there is a need to get round the filler check valve.

AJH

On Tuesday, 24 December 2013 17:31:05 UTC, harry wrote:

The problem is the gas is stored as a liquid.
It is used domestically by gassing off the propane with a top connection.
To get the liquid out to fill a cylinder you need either a dip tube or a
bottom connection which you won't have.

Liquid ((for ICE fuel tanks etc) is usually transferred by means of a pump
to speed things up.

The normal flexi connector BTW is for gas, not liquid transfer.
For liquid you need a special high pressure hose and connectors.

For a liquid or near liquid transfer a gas pump would be handy. But why does he need it to be liquid?

His supply is handy and near enough. If he gets a few bottles at a time he could manage with whatever pressure the gas enters the tank at.

BTW someone mentioned residual air in the gas bottles. There won't be any, it will be residual propane unless it comes from his connector whatever bodge he comes up with.

On 25/12/2013 20:10, Weatherlawyer wrote:
On Tuesday, 24 December 2013 17:31:05 UTC, harry wrote:

The problem is the gas is stored as a liquid.
It is used domestically by gassing off the propane with a top connection.
To get the liquid out to fill a cylinder you need either a dip tube or a
bottom connection which you won't have.

Liquid ((for ICE fuel tanks etc) is usually transferred by means of a pump
to speed things up.

The normal flexi connector BTW is for gas, not liquid transfer.
For liquid you need a special high pressure hose and connectors.

For a liquid or near liquid transfer a gas pump would be handy. But why does he need it to be liquid?

His supply is handy and near enough. If he gets a few bottles at a time he could manage with whatever pressure the gas enters the tank at.

If he fills the bottles with gas just using a pipe between the top of
the two containers, he'll be lucky to get half a kilogramme into a 47
kilo bottle. The only way to fill them to near capacity is to make sure
the gas inside the bottle liquefies, and that needs more pressure than
you can easily get from a gas only tap at the top of the source
container, that is, you either need to heat the source (risky) or cobble
together a pump to compress the gas into the receiving bottle. (Even
more risky)

BTW someone mentioned residual air in the gas bottles. There won't be any, it will be residual propane unless it comes from his connector whatever bodge he comes up with.

Correct.
--
Tciao for Now!

John.