On Wed, 17 Jul 2013 20:50:14 +0100 (BST), "Dave Liquorice"
wrote:

On Wed, 17 Jul 2013 19:43:01 +0100, ARW wrote:

Apprentice rate for the first year 16-18 is £2.65/hour. After the
first year they have to be paid the minimum wage for their age,
for a
17 year old that is £3.68/hour.

Are you sure about that Dave?

https://www.gov.uk/national-minimum-wage-rates

Wanders of to check as that is the same source. B-)

begin
Year 21+ 18-20 18 Apprentice*
2012 £6.19 £4.98 £3.68 £2.65

*This rate is for apprentices under 19 or those in their first year.
If you're 19 or over and past your first year you get the rate that
applies to your age.
end

Ah I misread it. The 17 year old after 12 months of apprenticeship
still has two years at apprentice rate to go before they get the
18-20 minimum wage.

Gawd they do make things complicated don't they, WTF bring 19 into
it? I guess it's to cut the costs of 3 year apprenticeships...

Is is just me that thinks that the minimum wage for apprentices[1] is
shockingly low? IIRC apprentice wages were higher in the 1980s when I
worked in the aerospace industry.

[1] Using the original meaning of the word.
--
(\__/) M.
(='.'=) If a man stands in a forest and no woman is around
(")_(") is he still wrong?

In message , harryagain
writes

"bert" ] wrote in message
...
In message , Nightjar
writes
On 17/07/2013 09:55, fred wrote:
In article , Tim Watts
writes
On Wednesday 17 July 2013 08:55 GB wrote in uk.d-i-y:

And so it goes on, pretending that training to become a rubbish
collector is the same as training for a really skilled job. What a
lie!

Someone has to do these jobs, and if they feel pride in it, then fair
play
to them!

The lie is that they have not undergone an apprenticeship,...

Provided they work alongside experienced staff, gain job-specific skills,
earn a wage and study towards a related qualification (for example NVQ
Level 2 Waste Management Operations) then they have completed an
apprenticeship within the Government definition.

Colin Bignell
Waste management is a complicated business and can lead to quite well paid
careers.
--
bert

Picking litter off the street should be done by claimant benificiaries
before they get any money
It is work for retards and the idle-at-school.


Ah the snobbery that says we are too good to start at the bottom.
--
bert

On 17/07/2013 19:24, Bill Wright wrote:
wrote:
On Wednesday, July 17, 2013 8:55:09 AM UTC+1, GB wrote:
This from the Islington borough magazine:
....are now employed by the Angel Business Improvement District team.

I thought this sort of job was now done unpaid by offenders on
community service schemes, or graduates on Jobseeker New Deal.
Owain

Cleaning up the mess left by fast food customers is actually my job. Or
so it seems.

Bill

However mundane the work, it might teach them to a) get up in the
morning and b) talk to grown-ups. A lot of real world jobs actually
require little else

On Thu, 18 Jul 2013 09:27:17 +0100, "tim....."
wrote:


"Bob Eager" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 17 Jul 2013 16:23:12 +0100, harryagain wrote:

Apprenticeship implies learnig a trade & perhaps progressing to
somethoing better.
Going to night school or day release. Technical college (Do any remain?)

These days, some FE colleges do a good job with apprentices.

SWMBO is in charge of engineering at a local college, and she is looking
to get more employeres involved in 'proper' apprenticeships.

has she magic-ed up some government budget for this

AIUI the last tranche of money for apprenticeships was well oversubscribed
(from employers) suggesting that there is no shortage of willing employers.
Though whether they were real apprenticeships instead of made up ones, I
have no idea

My local school has employed a few school leavers as apprentice
technicians. I don't whether to count these as proper apprenticeships
or not since it is likely they will not employ them beyond the end of
the apprenticeship.
--
(\__/) M.
(='.'=) If a man stands in a forest and no woman is around
(")_(") is he still wrong?

On Thursday 18 July 2013 03:25 Bill Wright wrote in uk.d-i-y:

newshound wrote:

What about the 'engineer' sent to me by my gas supplier? She was 34 and
inappropriately dressed.

Wasn't that a good thing? Or do you have a weak heart ;-

She was unable to figure out the capacity of my
boiler despite it being written on a plate under the front cover.

Bill
--
Tim Watts Personal Blog: http://squiddy.blog.dionic.net/

http://www.sensorly.com/ Crowd mapping of 2G/3G/4G mobile signal coverage

Reading this on the web? See:
http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?title=Usenet

On Thu, 18 Jul 2013 10:42:18 +0100, Tim Watts
wrote:

On Thursday 18 July 2013 03:25 Bill Wright wrote in uk.d-i-y:

newshound wrote:

What about the 'engineer' sent to me by my gas supplier? She was 34 and
inappropriately dressed.

Wasn't that a good thing? Or do you have a weak heart ;-

She was wearing a bikini?
--
(\__/) M.
(='.'=) If a man stands in a forest and no woman is around
(")_(") is he still wrong?

On Thursday 18 July 2013 10:56 Mark wrote in uk.d-i-y:

On Thu, 18 Jul 2013 10:42:18 +0100, Tim Watts
wrote:

On Thursday 18 July 2013 03:25 Bill Wright wrote in uk.d-i-y:

newshound wrote:

What about the 'engineer' sent to me by my gas supplier? She was 34 and
inappropriately dressed.

Wasn't that a good thing? Or do you have a weak heart ;-

She was wearing a bikini?

Hotpants are back. I see them on the train. Luckily, adorned by the suitable
rather than the unsuitable :-

--
Tim Watts Personal Blog: http://squiddy.blog.dionic.net/

http://www.sensorly.com/ Crowd mapping of 2G/3G/4G mobile signal coverage

Reading this on the web? See:
http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?title=Usenet

Tim Watts wrote:
On Thursday 18 July 2013 03:25 Bill Wright wrote in uk.d-i-y:

newshound wrote:

What about the 'engineer' sent to me by my gas supplier? She was 34 and
inappropriately dressed.

Wasn't that a good thing? Or do you have a weak heart ;-
She was too old for me.

Bill

On Thursday 18 July 2013 11:33 Bill Wright wrote in uk.d-i-y:

Tim Watts wrote:
On Thursday 18 July 2013 03:25 Bill Wright wrote in uk.d-i-y:

newshound wrote:

What about the 'engineer' sent to me by my gas supplier? She was 34 and
inappropriately dressed.

Wasn't that a good thing? Or do you have a weak heart ;-
She was too old for me.

Bill

*wibble*

--
Tim Watts Personal Blog: http://squiddy.blog.dionic.net/

http://www.sensorly.com/ Crowd mapping of 2G/3G/4G mobile signal coverage

Reading this on the web? See:
http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?title=Usenet

On 18/07/2013 09:36, bert wrote:

Picking litter off the street should be done by claimant benificiaries
before they get any money
It is work for retards and the idle-at-school.


Ah the snobbery that says we are too good to start at the bottom.

I saw some litter this morning (2 beer cans and a fag packet), picked it
up, and put it in the nearby bin. Nobody paid me to do it. I have no
idea why people leave litter like this. Is it due to snobbery - I'm too
good to pick up even my own litter?

"GB" wrote in message
...
On 18/07/2013 09:36, bert wrote:

Picking litter off the street should be done by claimant benificiaries
before they get any money
It is work for retards and the idle-at-school.


Ah the snobbery that says we are too good to start at the bottom.

I saw some litter this morning (2 beer cans and a fag packet), picked it
up, and put it in the nearby bin. Nobody paid me to do it. I have no idea
why people leave litter like this. Is it due to snobbery - I'm too good to
pick up even my own litter?

I live in a block of flats where the (other) residents can't even be
bothered to keep the communal area tidy - if the get something in their post
that they don't want, do they take it back to their flat an put it in with
their rubbish? Nope they just throw it on the floor of the entrance lobby

Just think what these people can do when they are totally disinterested in
keeping a place tidy

tim

Nightjar wrote:
On 18/07/2013 09:11, Mark wrote:
On Thu, 18 Jul 2013 06:22:24 +0100, "harryagain"
wrote:
...
Picking litter off the street should be done by claimant
benificiaries before they get any money

And what happens to those who used to be paid to do this?


They end up on benefits, picking up litter.

That was so sweet.

--
Adam

GB wrote:
On 18/07/2013 09:36, bert wrote:

Picking litter off the street should be done by claimant
benificiaries before they get any money
It is work for retards and the idle-at-school.


Ah the snobbery that says we are too good to start at the bottom.

I saw some litter this morning (2 beer cans and a fag packet), picked
it up, and put it in the nearby bin. Nobody paid me to do it. I have
no idea why people leave litter like this. Is it due to snobbery -
I'm too good to pick up even my own litter?

I once had an apprentice throw an empty coke can out of the van window. When
we got to his house I emptied the carrier bag full of empty cans and
sandwich packets etc that was in the passenger footwell into his Mum's
garden.

He got two bollockings that day. One from me and one from his Mum.

--
Adam

tim..... wrote:
"ARW" wrote in message
...
Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Wed, 17 Jul 2013 19:43:01 +0100, ARW wrote:

Apprentice rate for the first year 16-18 is £2.65/hour. After the
first year they have to be paid the minimum wage for their age,
for a 17 year old that is £3.68/hour.

Are you sure about that Dave?

https://www.gov.uk/national-minimum-wage-rates

Wanders of to check as that is the same source. B-)

begin
Year 21+ 18-20 18 Apprentice*
2012 £6.19 £4.98 £3.68 £2.65

*This rate is for apprentices under 19 or those in their first year.
If you're 19 or over and past your first year you get the rate that
applies to your age.
end

Ah I misread it. The 17 year old after 12 months of apprenticeship
still has two years at apprentice rate to go before they get the
18-20 minimum wage.

Gawd they do make things complicated don't they, WTF bring 19 into
it? I guess it's to cut the costs of 3 year apprenticeships...

But apprentices are very seldomly paid £2.65 an hour (even in the
first year most get £3/hour). I know 3rd year apprentices that are
paid more than the £6.19 winimum wage for a 21 year old. They are
paid according to ability (or is that liability?).

And if the apprentice that turns 16 at the end of August when he
leaves school could spend almost 3 years at work on the "apprentice
wage". It never happens.

in your biz, perhaps

I bet that it does in the made up apprenticeships

Unless there is a qualifiaction at the end of it then they are underpaid.

--
Adam

"Mark" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 18 Jul 2013 06:22:24 +0100, "harryagain"
wrote:


"bert" ] wrote in message
...
In message , Nightjar
writes
On 17/07/2013 09:55, fred wrote:
In article , Tim Watts
writes
On Wednesday 17 July 2013 08:55 GB wrote in uk.d-i-y:

And so it goes on, pretending that training to become a rubbish
collector is the same as training for a really skilled job. What a
lie!

Someone has to do these jobs, and if they feel pride in it, then fair
play
to them!

The lie is that they have not undergone an apprenticeship,...

Provided they work alongside experienced staff, gain job-specific
skills,
earn a wage and study towards a related qualification (for example NVQ
Level 2 Waste Management Operations) then they have completed an
apprenticeship within the Government definition.

Colin Bignell
Waste management is a complicated business and can lead to quite well
paid
careers.
--
bert

Picking litter off the street should be done by claimant benificiaries
before they get any money

And what happens to those who used to be paid to do this?

The only litter that gets picked on our nearby road is picked by me.

On Thu, 18 Jul 2013 11:06:42 +0100, Tim Watts wrote:

Hotpants are back.

What again! That'll be the third time, I must be getting old...

--
Cheers
Dave.

On Thu, 18 Jul 2013 10:24:47 +0100, Mark wrote:

My local school has employed a few school leavers as apprentice
technicians. I don't whether to count these as proper apprenticeships
or not since it is likely they will not employ them beyond the end of
the apprenticeship.

That is more of the issue rather than whether an apprenticeship in
Street Maintenance is "real" or not.

They should come out the other end of it with a paper qualification,
the experience and hopefully a good reference. This makes them far
more attractive to another employer.

--
Cheers
Dave.

On 18/07/2013 21:48, Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Thu, 18 Jul 2013 11:06:42 +0100, Tim Watts wrote:

Hotpants are back.

What again! That'll be the third time, I must be getting old...

As short shorts they can be dated back to 1945, so you probably are :-)

Colin Bignell

On Thursday 18 July 2013 21:48 Dave Liquorice wrote in uk.d-i-y:

On Thu, 18 Jul 2013 11:06:42 +0100, Tim Watts wrote:

Hotpants are back.

What again! That'll be the third time, I must be getting old...


2nd time for me - and the first time, I was probably too young to
appreciate...

Sometimes I really wish I was 20 in the 60's


--
Tim Watts Personal Blog: http://squiddy.blog.dionic.net/

http://www.sensorly.com/ Crowd mapping of 2G/3G/4G mobile signal coverage

Reading this on the web? See:
http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?title=Usenet

On 18/07/13 23:10, Tim Watts wrote:
On Thursday 18 July 2013 21:48 Dave Liquorice wrote in uk.d-i-y:

On Thu, 18 Jul 2013 11:06:42 +0100, Tim Watts wrote:

Hotpants are back.
What again! That'll be the third time, I must be getting old...

2nd time for me - and the first time, I was probably too young to
appreciate...

Sometimes I really wish I was 20 in the 60's


Nah. 60s crap till 67....

--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc-ra-cy) €“ a system of government where the least capable to lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a diminishing number of producers.

On Wed, 17 Jul 2013 22:34:15 +0100, "ARW"
wrote:

Or do you suspect that this bit of the link

Daniel takes up the story: "I'd already done some work with the
Neighbourhood's Team and had learnt a lot of useful skills that I can now
transfer to my paid job. I'm really grateful to both of the ward councillors
for giving this funding to help get me a job." is just bull**** and he was
told what to say?

Likely some press git made it up or some council git did their usual
puffery to make it all feel nice.

On Thu, 18 Jul 2013 09:15:09 +0100, Mark
wrote:

On Wed, 17 Jul 2013 22:24:21 +0100, Grimly Curmudgeon
wrote:

On Wed, 17 Jul 2013 10:40:02 +0100, "Ivan Dobsky"
wrote:

Aren't all local rags like this, though? I know our free one is full of
****e like this. I think they call them puff pieces. Tell everyone how
wonderful they are, so that they'll keep reading it, and not wonder about
how it's paid for.

Most local rags are nothing more than thinly-disguised collections of
press releases, between which is slotted some photo-ops to keep locals
interested.

Don't forget the hyped-up stories to suit some hidden agenda.

Oh, that too. Not forgetting the stories that don't get printed for
fear of putting noses out of joint in the local council chamber or
nick.

On Thu, 18 Jul 2013 21:56:00 +0100 (BST), "Dave Liquorice"
wrote:

On Thu, 18 Jul 2013 10:24:47 +0100, Mark wrote:

My local school has employed a few school leavers as apprentice
technicians. I don't whether to count these as proper apprenticeships
or not since it is likely they will not employ them beyond the end of
the apprenticeship.

That is more of the issue rather than whether an apprenticeship in
Street Maintenance is "real" or not.

They should come out the other end of it with a paper qualification,
the experience and hopefully a good reference. This makes them far
more attractive to another employer.

I don't know whether there is any qualifications available. IME most
schools (hereabouts) expect technicians they actually employ to have
degrees.
--
(\__/) M.
(='.'=) If a man stands in a forest and no woman is around
(")_(") is he still wrong?

"ARW" wrote in message
...
tim..... wrote:
"ARW" wrote in message
...
Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Wed, 17 Jul 2013 19:43:01 +0100, ARW wrote:

Apprentice rate for the first year 16-18 is £2.65/hour. After the
first year they have to be paid the minimum wage for their age,
for a 17 year old that is £3.68/hour.

Are you sure about that Dave?

https://www.gov.uk/national-minimum-wage-rates

Wanders of to check as that is the same source. B-)

begin
Year 21+ 18-20 18 Apprentice*
2012 £6.19 £4.98 £3.68 £2.65

*This rate is for apprentices under 19 or those in their first year.
If you're 19 or over and past your first year you get the rate that
applies to your age.
end

Ah I misread it. The 17 year old after 12 months of apprenticeship
still has two years at apprentice rate to go before they get the
18-20 minimum wage.

Gawd they do make things complicated don't they, WTF bring 19 into
it? I guess it's to cut the costs of 3 year apprenticeships...

But apprentices are very seldomly paid £2.65 an hour (even in the
first year most get £3/hour). I know 3rd year apprentices that are
paid more than the £6.19 winimum wage for a 21 year old. They are
paid according to ability (or is that liability?).

And if the apprentice that turns 16 at the end of August when he
leaves school could spend almost 3 years at work on the "apprentice
wage". It never happens.

in your biz, perhaps

I bet that it does in the made up apprenticeships

Unless there is a qualifiaction at the end

some of the "made up" ones are the ones that lead to a qualification, but
not a job

tim

On 18/07/2013 09:36, Mark wrote:
On Wed, 17 Jul 2013 20:50:14 +0100 (BST), "Dave Liquorice"
wrote:

On Wed, 17 Jul 2013 19:43:01 +0100, ARW wrote:

Apprentice rate for the first year 16-18 is £2.65/hour. After the
first year they have to be paid the minimum wage for their age,
for a
17 year old that is £3.68/hour.

Are you sure about that Dave?

https://www.gov.uk/national-minimum-wage-rates

Wanders of to check as that is the same source. B-)

begin
Year 21+ 18-20 18 Apprentice*
2012 £6.19 £4.98 £3.68 £2.65

*This rate is for apprentices under 19 or those in their first year.
If you're 19 or over and past your first year you get the rate that
applies to your age.
end

Ah I misread it. The 17 year old after 12 months of apprenticeship
still has two years at apprentice rate to go before they get the
18-20 minimum wage.

Gawd they do make things complicated don't they, WTF bring 19 into
it? I guess it's to cut the costs of 3 year apprenticeships...

Is is just me that thinks that the minimum wage for apprentices[1] is
shockingly low? IIRC apprentice wages were higher in the 1980s when I
worked in the aerospace industry.

[1] Using the original meaning of the word.

The aerospace industry near us was one of the best for payment and
conditions in the city IIRC.

Phil

"Grimly Curmudgeon" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 17 Jul 2013 22:34:15 +0100, "ARW"
wrote:

Or do you suspect that this bit of the link

Daniel takes up the story: "I'd already done some work with the
Neighbourhood's Team and had learnt a lot of useful skills that I can now
transfer to my paid job. I'm really grateful to both of the ward
councillors
for giving this funding to help get me a job." is just bull**** and he was
told what to say?

Likely some press git made it up or some council git did their usual
puffery to make it all feel nice.

I figured the bit about him already having some experience of the
'neighborhoods team' ment he had either experienced being forced to collect
litter for his dole, or was made to do it whilst wearing a fluro jacket with
'young offender on community payback' written on the back of it.