In message , harryagain
writes

"Bill Wright" wrote in message
...
Huge wrote:

People who sneer at rubbish collectors and the like should ask themselves
"Would I do that job?"

Your entrenched political and social viewpoint has prevented you from
understanding the purpose of the original message. The OP was making the
point that young working class people are being conned into believing that
being used for unskilled work amounts to an apprenticeship. In other
words, his message was in support of the underprivileged. Your knee-jerk
reaction, once that has been understood, was extremely foolish.

Bill

Exactly so.
They deserve better than this.


Deserve? 'Bout time we realised the world doesn't owe us a living.
--
bert

In message , Nightjar
writes
On 17/07/2013 09:55, fred wrote:
In article , Tim Watts
writes
On Wednesday 17 July 2013 08:55 GB wrote in uk.d-i-y:

And so it goes on, pretending that training to become a rubbish
collector is the same as training for a really skilled job. What a lie!

Someone has to do these jobs, and if they feel pride in it, then fair
play
to them!

The lie is that they have not undergone an apprenticeship,...

Provided they work alongside experienced staff, gain job-specific
skills, earn a wage and study towards a related qualification (for
example NVQ Level 2 Waste Management Operations) then they have
completed an apprenticeship within the Government definition.

Colin Bignell
Waste management is a complicated business and can lead to quite well
paid careers.
--
bert

Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Wed, 17 Jul 2013 14:01:11 +0100, Mark wrote:

the point is that someone has lied about the fact that they are
offering an apprenticeship in order to get this job done at
sub-minimum wage

Is it really below minimum wage?

Apprentice rate for the first year 16-18 is £2.65/hour. After the
first year they have to be paid the minimum wage for their age, for a
17 year old that is £3.68/hour.

Are you sure about that Dave?

https://www.gov.uk/national-minimum-wage-rates

--
Adam

In message , GB
writes
On 17/07/2013 14:40, Mr Pounder wrote:

Another one he
http://www.blackpool.gov.uk/news/par...provesahit.htm

And the article makes it sound like the local councillors paid him out
of their own pockets. Excuse me whilst I vomit.



If you read it you will see that it was paid from the ward budget.
That's a small amount through the LAP to be used at the discretion of
the councillors to the benefit of their ward.
--
bert

On 17/07/2013 19:38, bert wrote:
....
What's wrong with being an apprentice rubbish collector?

Waste management operative, please.

Colin Bignell

On 17/07/13 19:50, Nightjar wrote:
On 17/07/2013 19:38, bert wrote:
...
What's wrong with being an apprentice rubbish collector?

Waste management operative, please.

Colin Bignell
recycling executive shirley?


--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc-ra-cy) €“ a system of government where the least capable to lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a diminishing number of producers.

Nightjar wrote:
On 17/07/2013 19:38, bert wrote:
...
What's wrong with being an apprentice rubbish collector?

Waste management operative, please.

We have street cleansing operatives where I live:-)


--
Adam

On 17/07/2013 19:38, bert wrote:

What's wrong with being an apprentice rubbish collector?

That the job needs to exist - litter seems in the main to exist because
of carelessness and couldn't-give-a-damness. And graffiti in the main
due to the egos that think their "message" is more more important than
any one else's property.

--
Rod

"bert" ] wrote in message
...
In message , GB
writes
On 17/07/2013 14:40, Mr Pounder wrote:

Another one he
http://www.blackpool.gov.uk/news/par...provesahit.htm

And the article makes it sound like the local councillors paid him out of
their own pockets. Excuse me whilst I vomit.



If you read it you will see that it was paid from the ward budget. That's
a small amount through the LAP to be used at the discretion of the
councillors to the benefit of their ward.

If you knew the ward you would have paid the guy danger money.
The local name for the place is Fort Apache.
He has more guts than me to walk the streets of this council ********.

On 17/07/2013 16:52, Bob Eager wrote:
On Wed, 17 Jul 2013 16:23:12 +0100, harryagain wrote:

Apprenticeship implies learnig a trade & perhaps progressing to
somethoing better.
Going to night school or day release. Technical college (Do any remain?)

These days, some FE colleges do a good job with apprentices.

SWMBO is in charge of engineering at a local college, and she is looking
to get more employeres involved in 'proper' apprenticeships.



Good for her, and I sincerely hope that her efforts aren't devalued by
this nonsense.

GB wrote:
On 17/07/2013 09:37, Brian Gaff wrote:
But somebody has to do it I guess.
I often think that people who are willing to do messy jobs get
paid too little and those who push bits of paper about get paid too
much!

Sorry guys, but you're missing my point. There's nothing wrong with
the job itself. I entirely agree that someone has to do it, and I'd
be happy enough to do it myself (for a while at least).

However, I *strongly* object to calling it an apprenticeship, as if
these guys were being trained over a long period of time in a skilled
trade. It's the sort of job that used to involve no formal training
and now probably involves a few days, mostly on H&S aspects.

These so-called apprenticeships then get added to the statistics, as
if we were training more skilled tradesmen, such as
electricians/plumbers/tool-makers, etc. It's just a con.

I'm sorry that that was not clearer from my first post.

****ing hell, I agree with you:-)

--
Adam

On Wed, 17 Jul 2013 19:43:01 +0100, ARW wrote:

Apprentice rate for the first year 16-18 is £2.65/hour. After the
first year they have to be paid the minimum wage for their age,
for a
17 year old that is £3.68/hour.

Are you sure about that Dave?

https://www.gov.uk/national-minimum-wage-rates

Wanders of to check as that is the same source. B-)

begin
Year 21+ 18-20 18 Apprentice*
2012 £6.19 £4.98 £3.68 £2.65

*This rate is for apprentices under 19 or those in their first year.
If you're 19 or over and past your first year you get the rate that
applies to your age.
end

Ah I misread it. The 17 year old after 12 months of apprenticeship
still has two years at apprentice rate to go before they get the
18-20 minimum wage.

Gawd they do make things complicated don't they, WTF bring 19 into
it? I guess it's to cut the costs of 3 year apprenticeships...

--
Cheers
Dave.

On 17/07/2013 19:42, bert wrote:
In message , Nightjar
writes
On 17/07/2013 09:55, fred wrote:
In article , Tim Watts
writes
On Wednesday 17 July 2013 08:55 GB wrote in uk.d-i-y:

And so it goes on, pretending that training to become a rubbish
collector is the same as training for a really skilled job. What a
lie!

Someone has to do these jobs, and if they feel pride in it, then fair
play
to them!

The lie is that they have not undergone an apprenticeship,...

Provided they work alongside experienced staff, gain job-specific
skills, earn a wage and study towards a related qualification (for
example NVQ Level 2 Waste Management Operations) then they have
completed an apprenticeship within the Government definition.

Waste management is a complicated business and can lead to quite well
paid careers.

Indeed. I've known a few scrap metal merchants in my time.

Colin Bignell

Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Wed, 17 Jul 2013 19:43:01 +0100, ARW wrote:

Apprentice rate for the first year 16-18 is £2.65/hour. After the
first year they have to be paid the minimum wage for their age, for
a 17 year old that is £3.68/hour.

Are you sure about that Dave?

https://www.gov.uk/national-minimum-wage-rates

Wanders of to check as that is the same source. B-)

begin
Year 21+ 18-20 18 Apprentice*
2012 £6.19 £4.98 £3.68 £2.65

*This rate is for apprentices under 19 or those in their first year.
If you're 19 or over and past your first year you get the rate that
applies to your age.
end

Ah I misread it. The 17 year old after 12 months of apprenticeship
still has two years at apprentice rate to go before they get the
18-20 minimum wage.

Gawd they do make things complicated don't they, WTF bring 19 into
it? I guess it's to cut the costs of 3 year apprenticeships...

But apprentices are very seldomly paid £2.65 an hour (even in the first year
most get £3/hour). I know 3rd year apprentices that are paid more than the
£6.19 winimum wage for a 21 year old. They are paid according to ability (or
is that liability?).

And if the apprentice that turns 16 at the end of August when he leaves
school could spend almost 3 years at work on the "apprentice wage". It never
happens.

--
Adam

On 17/07/2013 09:56, GB wrote:
On 17/07/2013 09:37, Brian Gaff wrote:
But somebody has to do it I guess.
I often think that people who are willing to do messy jobs get paid too
little and those who push bits of paper about get paid too much!

Sorry guys, but you're missing my point. There's nothing wrong with the
job itself. I entirely agree that someone has to do it, and I'd be happy
enough to do it myself (for a while at least).

However, I *strongly* object to calling it an apprenticeship, as if
these guys were being trained over a long period of time in a skilled
trade. It's the sort of job that used to involve no formal training and
now probably involves a few days, mostly on H&S aspects.

These so-called apprenticeships then get added to the statistics, as if
we were training more skilled tradesmen, such as
electricians/plumbers/tool-makers, etc. It's just a con.

I'm sorry that that was not clearer from my first post.



As Colin says above, the term, together with most job titles, has been
redefined. But, unfortunately, only a minority of people seem to mind.
Including, as I posted earlier, the "Senior Sales Executive" at Hyundai,
actually a 23 year old girl who had been in the job for 7 months but
hadn't had any formal training in sales. (Undercover Boss).

On Wed, 17 Jul 2013 14:53:55 +0100, newshound
wrote:

On that basis I suppose I should be called an Intergalactic Energy
Consultant; or at very least an Interplanetary one.

Any good for a quick boiler job out by Jupiter?

On Wed, 17 Jul 2013 16:30:25 +0100, "harryagain"
wrote:

An NVQ trained "electrician" came to wire my PVpanels.
I ended up going on the roof myself to wiret hem up.

Syrian torture squad - the good old days, eh?

On Wed, 17 Jul 2013 16:34:09 +0100, "harryagain"
wrote:

http://www.blackpool.gov.uk/news/par...provesahit.htm
That is truly appalling.

"Daniel was employed as an apprentice with Blackpool Council on a 12
month contract, and just a few months into his role, he’s already
helping to clean up the area."

Just a few months?
I feel a Trigger's Broom moment coming on. I'm not taking the **** out
of the bloke - any job's a job these days and best of luck to him.

On Wed, 17 Jul 2013 10:40:02 +0100, "Ivan Dobsky"
wrote:

Aren't all local rags like this, though? I know our free one is full of
****e like this. I think they call them puff pieces. Tell everyone how
wonderful they are, so that they'll keep reading it, and not wonder about
how it's paid for.

Most local rags are nothing more than thinly-disguised collections of
press releases, between which is slotted some photo-ops to keep locals
interested.

On 17/07/2013 22:16, Grimly Curmudgeon wrote:
On Wed, 17 Jul 2013 14:53:55 +0100, newshound
wrote:

On that basis I suppose I should be called an Intergalactic Energy
Consultant; or at very least an Interplanetary one.

Any good for a quick boiler job out by Jupiter?

You get me there, I'll have a look at it!

Grimly Curmudgeon wrote:
On Wed, 17 Jul 2013 16:34:09 +0100, "harryagain"
wrote:

http://www.blackpool.gov.uk/news/par...provesahit.htm
That is truly appalling.

"Daniel was employed as an apprentice with Blackpool Council on a 12
month contract, and just a few months into his role, he's already
helping to clean up the area."

Just a few months?
I feel a Trigger's Broom moment coming on. I'm not taking the **** out
of the bloke - any job's a job these days and best of luck to him.

It's not like you to be so nice. I will also offer him the best of luck

Or do you suspect that this bit of the link

Daniel takes up the story: "I'd already done some work with the
Neighbourhood's Team and had learnt a lot of useful skills that I can now
transfer to my paid job. I'm really grateful to both of the ward councillors
for giving this funding to help get me a job." is just bull**** and he was
told what to say?

--
Adam

On Wednesday, July 17, 2013 7:38:32 PM UTC+1, bert wrote:
What's wrong with being an apprentice rubbish collector?

Better than being a rubbish-apprentice collector like Adam.

Note I did not say a rubbish apprentice-collector.

Owain

On 17/07/2013 21:34, newshound wrote:
....
As Colin says above, the term, together with most job titles, has been
redefined. But, unfortunately, only a minority of people seem to mind...

They changed about 20 years ago and I don't think anybody who knew what
apprenticeships were thought that modern apprenticeships would last as a
title very long. Their predecessors had been youth opportunity
programme, which survived five years, youth training scheme, which
lasted six years and, finally, youth training, which managed just three
years.

Colin Bignell

bert wrote:

They deserve better than this.


Deserve? 'Bout time we realised the world doesn't owe us a living.
Obviously not. But it does owe everyone a fair chance.

Bill

Nightjar wrote:

Indeed. I've known a few scrap metal merchants in my time.

The richer ones have often married too early, when they were still poor.
As a result their wives are fat and ugly and highly unsophisticated and
treat working class people like dirt. They even try to treat me like
dirt, and I'm middle class and also much cleverer than they are so my
**** taking goes unnoticed by them.

Bill

newshound wrote:

As Colin says above, the term, together with most job titles, has been
redefined. But, unfortunately, only a minority of people seem to mind.
Including, as I posted earlier, the "Senior Sales Executive" at Hyundai,
actually a 23 year old girl who had been in the job for 7 months but
hadn't had any formal training in sales. (Undercover Boss).
What about the 'engineer' sent to me by my gas supplier? She was 34 and
inappropriately dressed. She was unable to figure out the capacity of my
boiler despite it being written on a plate under the front cover.

Bill

"bert" ] wrote in message
...
In message , Nightjar
writes
On 17/07/2013 09:55, fred wrote:
In article , Tim Watts
writes
On Wednesday 17 July 2013 08:55 GB wrote in uk.d-i-y:

And so it goes on, pretending that training to become a rubbish
collector is the same as training for a really skilled job. What a
lie!

Someone has to do these jobs, and if they feel pride in it, then fair
play
to them!

The lie is that they have not undergone an apprenticeship,...

Provided they work alongside experienced staff, gain job-specific skills,
earn a wage and study towards a related qualification (for example NVQ
Level 2 Waste Management Operations) then they have completed an
apprenticeship within the Government definition.

Colin Bignell
Waste management is a complicated business and can lead to quite well paid
careers.
--
bert

Picking litter off the street should be done by claimant benificiaries
before they get any money
It is work for retards and the idle-at-school.

"Dave Liquorice" wrote in message
ll.co.uk...
On Wed, 17 Jul 2013 06:32:20 -0700 (PDT), whisky-dave wrote:

I've always assumed Apprenticeships are in house adn the person isn;t
sent to a 3rd party for training.

Mostly in house and on the job under a mentor but these days there is
normally an element of formal training at college as well. Also for
todays official recognition that the placement is an apprenticeship
there will be involvement from an external body to verify that the
relevant training/skills have been gained by the apprentice.


Apprentices always went to college/night school. For the last century at
least.

On Thu, 18 Jul 2013 03:25:25 +0100, Bill Wright wrote:

What about the 'engineer' sent to me by my gas supplier? She was 34 and
inappropriately dressed. She was unable to figure out the capacity of my
boiler despite it being written on a plate under the front cover.

She was *not* sent by the gas supplier, but by the boys down't'pub who chipped
in for the very special gift of a visit by a highly trained professional and you
thought she was there to service the boiler...?


Thomas Prufer

On Thu, 18 Jul 2013 06:22:24 +0100, harryagain wrote:

Picking litter off the street should be done by claimant benificiaries
before they get any money

It will be soon unless HMG have quitely dropped that proposal.

--
Cheers
Dave.

On Wed, 17 Jul 2013 19:40:51 +0100, bert ] wrote:

In message , harryagain
writes

"Bill Wright" wrote in message
...
Huge wrote:

People who sneer at rubbish collectors and the like should ask themselves
"Would I do that job?"

Your entrenched political and social viewpoint has prevented you from
understanding the purpose of the original message. The OP was making the
point that young working class people are being conned into believing that
being used for unskilled work amounts to an apprenticeship. In other
words, his message was in support of the underprivileged. Your knee-jerk
reaction, once that has been understood, was extremely foolish.

Bill

Exactly so.
They deserve better than this.


Deserve? 'Bout time we realised the world doesn't owe us a living.

Tell that to the w^^^^bankers.
--
(\__/) M.
(='.'=) If a man stands in a forest and no woman is around
(")_(") is he still wrong?

On Thu, 18 Jul 2013 03:22:52 +0100, Bill Wright
wrote:

Nightjar wrote:

Indeed. I've known a few scrap metal merchants in my time.

The richer ones have often married too early, when they were still poor.
As a result their wives are fat and ugly and highly unsophisticated and
treat working class people like dirt. They even try to treat me like
dirt, and I'm middle class and also much cleverer than they are so my
**** taking goes unnoticed by them.

Whereas I have no class ;-)
--
(\__/) M.
(='.'=) If a man stands in a forest and no woman is around
(")_(") is he still wrong?

On Thu, 18 Jul 2013 06:22:24 +0100, "harryagain"
wrote:


"bert" ] wrote in message
...
In message , Nightjar
writes
On 17/07/2013 09:55, fred wrote:
In article , Tim Watts
writes
On Wednesday 17 July 2013 08:55 GB wrote in uk.d-i-y:

And so it goes on, pretending that training to become a rubbish
collector is the same as training for a really skilled job. What a
lie!

Someone has to do these jobs, and if they feel pride in it, then fair
play
to them!

The lie is that they have not undergone an apprenticeship,...

Provided they work alongside experienced staff, gain job-specific skills,
earn a wage and study towards a related qualification (for example NVQ
Level 2 Waste Management Operations) then they have completed an
apprenticeship within the Government definition.

Colin Bignell
Waste management is a complicated business and can lead to quite well paid
careers.
--
bert

Picking litter off the street should be done by claimant benificiaries
before they get any money

And what happens to those who used to be paid to do this?
--
(\__/) M.
(='.'=) If a man stands in a forest and no woman is around
(")_(") is he still wrong?

On Wed, 17 Jul 2013 22:24:21 +0100, Grimly Curmudgeon
wrote:

On Wed, 17 Jul 2013 10:40:02 +0100, "Ivan Dobsky"
wrote:

Aren't all local rags like this, though? I know our free one is full of
****e like this. I think they call them puff pieces. Tell everyone how
wonderful they are, so that they'll keep reading it, and not wonder about
how it's paid for.

Most local rags are nothing more than thinly-disguised collections of
press releases, between which is slotted some photo-ops to keep locals
interested.

Don't forget the hyped-up stories to suit some hidden agenda.
--
(\__/) M.
(='.'=) If a man stands in a forest and no woman is around
(")_(") is he still wrong?

"Bob Eager" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 17 Jul 2013 16:23:12 +0100, harryagain wrote:

Apprenticeship implies learnig a trade & perhaps progressing to
somethoing better.
Going to night school or day release. Technical college (Do any remain?)

These days, some FE colleges do a good job with apprentices.

SWMBO is in charge of engineering at a local college, and she is looking
to get more employeres involved in 'proper' apprenticeships.

has she magic-ed up some government budget for this

AIUI the last tranche of money for apprenticeships was well oversubscribed
(from employers) suggesting that there is no shortage of willing employers.
Though whether they were real apprenticeships instead of made up ones, I
have no idea

tim

In message , The Natural Philosopher
writes
On 17/07/13 19:50, Nightjar wrote:
On 17/07/2013 19:38, bert wrote:
...
What's wrong with being an apprentice rubbish collector?

Waste management operative, please.

Colin Bignell
recycling executive shirley?


I'd love to be a recycled executive.
--
bert

"bert" ] wrote in message
...
In message , tim.....
writes

"Huge" wrote in message
...
On 2013-07-17, Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Wed, 17 Jul 2013 09:20:59 +0100, Tim Watts wrote:

And so it goes on, pretending that training to become a rubbish
collector is the same as training for a really skilled job. What
a
lie!

Someone has to do these jobs, and if they feel pride in it, then fair
play to them!

Quite. Not everyone has the nouse to be a theoretical phycisist and
the streets won't clean themselves. It's the people who don't value
the "rubbish collectors" that drag society down.

Hear, hear.

People who sneer at rubbish collectors and the like should ask
themselves
"Would I do that job?"

that isn't the point though is it

the point is that someone has lied about the fact that they are offering
an apprenticeship in order to get this job done at sub-minimum wage

tim
What's wrong with being an apprentice rubbish collector?

the fact that there is no fundamentally difficult skill to learn here.

tim


--
bert

On 18/07/2013 09:11, Mark wrote:
On Thu, 18 Jul 2013 06:22:24 +0100, "harryagain"
wrote:
....
Picking litter off the street should be done by claimant benificiaries
before they get any money

And what happens to those who used to be paid to do this?


They end up on benefits, picking up litter.

Colin Bignell

"ARW" wrote in message
...
Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Wed, 17 Jul 2013 19:43:01 +0100, ARW wrote:

Apprentice rate for the first year 16-18 is £2.65/hour. After the
first year they have to be paid the minimum wage for their age, for
a 17 year old that is £3.68/hour.

Are you sure about that Dave?

https://www.gov.uk/national-minimum-wage-rates

Wanders of to check as that is the same source. B-)

begin
Year 21+ 18-20 18 Apprentice*
2012 £6.19 £4.98 £3.68 £2.65

*This rate is for apprentices under 19 or those in their first year.
If you're 19 or over and past your first year you get the rate that
applies to your age.
end

Ah I misread it. The 17 year old after 12 months of apprenticeship
still has two years at apprentice rate to go before they get the
18-20 minimum wage.

Gawd they do make things complicated don't they, WTF bring 19 into
it? I guess it's to cut the costs of 3 year apprenticeships...

But apprentices are very seldomly paid £2.65 an hour (even in the first
year most get £3/hour). I know 3rd year apprentices that are paid more
than the £6.19 winimum wage for a 21 year old. They are paid according to
ability (or is that liability?).

And if the apprentice that turns 16 at the end of August when he leaves
school could spend almost 3 years at work on the "apprentice wage". It
never happens.

in your biz, perhaps

I bet that it does in the made up apprenticeships

"newshound" wrote in message
...
On 17/07/2013 09:56, GB wrote:
On 17/07/2013 09:37, Brian Gaff wrote:
But somebody has to do it I guess.
I often think that people who are willing to do messy jobs get paid
too
little and those who push bits of paper about get paid too much!

Sorry guys, but you're missing my point. There's nothing wrong with the
job itself. I entirely agree that someone has to do it, and I'd be happy
enough to do it myself (for a while at least).

However, I *strongly* object to calling it an apprenticeship, as if
these guys were being trained over a long period of time in a skilled
trade. It's the sort of job that used to involve no formal training and
now probably involves a few days, mostly on H&S aspects.

These so-called apprenticeships then get added to the statistics, as if
we were training more skilled tradesmen, such as
electricians/plumbers/tool-makers, etc. It's just a con.

I'm sorry that that was not clearer from my first post.



As Colin says above, the term, together with most job titles, has been
redefined. But, unfortunately, only a minority of people seem to mind.
Including, as I posted earlier, the "Senior Sales Executive" at Hyundai,
actually a 23 year old girl who had been in the job for 7 months but
hadn't had any formal training in sales. (Undercover Boss).

I couldn't believe that either

tim