I have 17 (at a rough count) sash windows in various conditions from
good to buggered. Clearly, what best to do with them is a bit of an
individual decision but, if possible, I'd like to keep them broadly as
they are, only with fewer draughts and leaks.

The relatively good ones are easy (-ish) to draught-proof etc, but the
knackered ones are my current concern:
The worst ones have rotted through the cill and other parts of the
frame, and the sashes are looking pretty dismal too, with some frame rot
and cracks and holes in the panes.
These might be a good place to start, as there's little to lose.

It seems to me the options (for the worst ones) a
To get new timber ones made and fitted (pretty pricey by the look of it).
Buy some plastic ones (possibly OK but not really in character with the
house).
Or - DIY. Although I have done plenty of things, I've never done this,
hence this post.

There's plenty of info around the web on the components of a box sash
window but I'm wondering if anyone here has experience of building the
whole thing from scratch.
And, particularly, what the gotchas a The sashes look on the simple
side, but I suspect the box frame is more complex to get right.

Of course, these were originally knocked up by Victorian carpenters
without the benefit of modern power tools etc, so it should be easier
these days. And the cash saved might justify some new toys.

On the other hand, I wouldn't underestimate the skill of the Victorian
chippy. The fact that all the windows in the house are original after
150 years shows they did a pretty good job.
The degradation is, of course, the result of neglect/lack of maintenance
since then.

One thing they may have had was decent timber to work with, but I would
get something half decent from the local timber yard/mill - it doesn't
cost much more than the sheds' basic rubbish to get good stuff.

Undoubtedly, someone will tell me there should be building regs
involved, but we'll worry about that if anyone ever asks. For the
moment, we'll just call it a repair......

On Tue, 16 Jul 2013 21:35:03 +0100, GMM GlMiMa-AT-yahoo.co.uk wrote:

I have 17 (at a rough count) sash windows in various conditions from
good to buggered. Clearly, what best to do with them is a bit of an
individual decision but, if possible, I'd like to keep them broadly as
they are, only with fewer draughts and leaks.

The relatively good ones are easy (-ish) to draught-proof etc, but the
knackered ones are my current concern:
The worst ones have rotted through the cill and other parts of the
frame, and the sashes are looking pretty dismal too, with some frame rot
and cracks and holes in the panes.
These might be a good place to start, as there's little to lose.

It seems to me the options (for the worst ones) a
To get new timber ones made and fitted (pretty pricey by the look of it).
Buy some plastic ones (possibly OK but not really in character with the
house).
Or - DIY. Although I have done plenty of things, I've never done this,
hence this post.

There's plenty of info around the web on the components of a box sash
window but I'm wondering if anyone here has experience of building the
whole thing from scratch.
And, particularly, what the gotchas a The sashes look on the simple
side, but I suspect the box frame is more complex to get right.

Of course, these were originally knocked up by Victorian carpenters
without the benefit of modern power tools etc, so it should be easier
these days. And the cash saved might justify some new toys.

On the other hand, I wouldn't underestimate the skill of the Victorian
chippy. The fact that all the windows in the house are original after
150 years shows they did a pretty good job.
The degradation is, of course, the result of neglect/lack of maintenance
since then.

One thing they may have had was decent timber to work with, but I would
get something half decent from the local timber yard/mill - it doesn't
cost much more than the sheds' basic rubbish to get good stuff.

Undoubtedly, someone will tell me there should be building regs
involved, but we'll worry about that if anyone ever asks. For the
moment, we'll just call it a repair......

There are many firms around in all areas that do sash work. These vary
from the single guy who re-sashes, to larger firms that repair and
fabricate whatever is necessary to make good.

Before anything you would benefit from consulting a couple of them to
clear your mind on what needs doing.

You may find one of them will be interested in the on/off work
situation available and give a very good price as a result. You will
of course pay by result, not up front.

I have made one sash window many moons ago. I love working with wood
but would never attempt it again without a workshop available,
particularly when a steep learning curve is involved.

On 16/07/2013 21:35, GMM wrote:

There's plenty of info around the web on the components of a box sash
window but I'm wondering if anyone here has experience of building the
whole thing from scratch.

No, but it sounds like the kind of job that would be fun to have a go
at, as long as you have access to reasonable workshop facilities.

A quick search did turn up:

http://www.timnott.co.uk/Stuff/sashwindows.pdf

This might also be worth a look:

http://openlibrary.org/books/OL24760...ry_and_joinery


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 16/07/2013 21:35, GMM wrote:
I have 17 (at a rough count) sash windows in various conditions from
good to buggered. Clearly, what best to do with them is a bit of an
individual decision but, if possible, I'd like to keep them broadly as
they are, only with fewer draughts and leaks.

The relatively good ones are easy (-ish) to draught-proof etc, but the
knackered ones are my current concern:
The worst ones have rotted through the cill and other parts of the
frame, and the sashes are looking pretty dismal too, with some frame rot
and cracks and holes in the panes.
These might be a good place to start, as there's little to lose.

It seems to me the options (for the worst ones) a
To get new timber ones made and fitted (pretty pricey by the look of it).
Buy some plastic ones (possibly OK but not really in character with the
house).
Or - DIY. Although I have done plenty of things, I've never done this,
hence this post.

There's plenty of info around the web on the components of a box sash
window but I'm wondering if anyone here has experience of building the
whole thing from scratch.
And, particularly, what the gotchas a The sashes look on the simple
side, but I suspect the box frame is more complex to get right.

Of course, these were originally knocked up by Victorian carpenters
without the benefit of modern power tools etc, so it should be easier
these days. And the cash saved might justify some new toys.

On the other hand, I wouldn't underestimate the skill of the Victorian
chippy. The fact that all the windows in the house are original after
150 years shows they did a pretty good job.
The degradation is, of course, the result of neglect/lack of maintenance
since then.

One thing they may have had was decent timber to work with, but I would
get something half decent from the local timber yard/mill - it doesn't
cost much more than the sheds' basic rubbish to get good stuff.

Undoubtedly, someone will tell me there should be building regs
involved, but we'll worry about that if anyone ever asks. For the
moment, we'll just call it a repair......

The sills are relatively easy to repair with 2 part filler and/or new
timber.

I would leave the boxes alone if at all possible. A neighbour had
replacements made and the weights never traveled as freely as in the
originals.

I'd say you need workshop facilities to make new sashes, particularly if
they have a centre bar. I repaired mine 20+ years ago using only car
body filler. There is a knack to using that stuff which you would no
doubt acquire with 17 to do.

On 16/07/2013 21:35, GMM wrote:
I have 17 (at a rough count) sash windows in various conditions from
good to buggered. Clearly, what best to do with them is a bit of an
individual decision but, if possible, I'd like to keep them broadly as
they are, only with fewer draughts and leaks.

The relatively good ones are easy (-ish) to draught-proof etc, but the
knackered ones are my current concern:
The worst ones have rotted through the cill and other parts of the
frame, and the sashes are looking pretty dismal too, with some frame rot
and cracks and holes in the panes.
These might be a good place to start, as there's little to lose.

It seems to me the options (for the worst ones) a
To get new timber ones made and fitted (pretty pricey by the look of it)....

Unless they are an unusual size, you could buy modern timber sash
windows from somebody like Jeld-Wen and fit them yourself.

http://www.jeld-wen.co.uk/

Still not cheap, but certainly cheaper than having them made to order.

....
And, particularly, what the gotchas a The sashes look on the simple
side, but I suspect the box frame is more complex to get right....

You could probably simplify that considerably by using gas struts
instead of weights.

Colin Bignell

On Wednesday, July 17, 2013 7:40:47 AM UTC+1, Nightjar wrote:
On 16/07/2013 21:35, GMM wrote:

I have 17 (at a rough count) sash windows in various conditions from

good to buggered. Clearly, what best to do with them is a bit of an

individual decision but, if possible, I'd like to keep them broadly as

they are, only with fewer draughts and leaks.



The relatively good ones are easy (-ish) to draught-proof etc, but the

knackered ones are my current concern:

The worst ones have rotted through the cill and other parts of the

frame, and the sashes are looking pretty dismal too, with some frame rot

and cracks and holes in the panes.

These might be a good place to start, as there's little to lose.



It seems to me the options (for the worst ones) a

To get new timber ones made and fitted (pretty pricey by the look of it)....



Unless they are an unusual size, you could buy modern timber sash
windows from somebody like Jeld-Wen and fit them yourself.

http://www.jeld-wen.co.uk/

I would expect those to be standard sizes to suit modern build methods & brick sizes, lintels etc - so a large "luck" factor retrofitting to a period house

Also get quotes from a few builders merchants to size up the true cost.

Still not cheap, but certainly cheaper than having them made to order.

the also offer "made to measure"... at some price..

Jim K

On Tuesday, July 16, 2013 9:35:03 PM UTC+1, GMM wrote:
I have 17 (at a rough count) sash windows in various conditions from

good to buggered. Clearly, what best to do with them is a bit of an

individual decision but, if possible, I'd like to keep them broadly as

they are, only with fewer draughts and leaks.



The relatively good ones are easy (-ish) to draught-proof etc, but the

knackered ones are my current concern:

The worst ones have rotted through the cill and other parts of the

frame, and the sashes are looking pretty dismal too, with some frame rot

and cracks and holes in the panes.

These might be a good place to start, as there's little to lose.



It seems to me the options (for the worst ones) a

To get new timber ones made and fitted (pretty pricey by the look of it).

Buy some plastic ones (possibly OK but not really in character with the

house).

you seen these?

http://www.quickslide.co.uk/vertical...s-features.asp

I have had 3 in for 5+years - no issues, except gas strut issue on one that is a TUIT...

From a distance you;d never know...

Jim K

On 17/07/2013 10:40, Jim K wrote:
On Wednesday, July 17, 2013 7:40:47 AM UTC+1, Nightjar wrote:
.....
Unless they are an unusual size, you could buy modern timber sash
windows from somebody like Jeld-Wen and fit them yourself.

http://www.jeld-wen.co.uk/

I would expect those to be standard sizes to suit modern build methods & brick sizes, lintels etc - so a large "luck" factor retrofitting to a period house

I would expect them to be available in all the common Imperial sizes
that Victorian builders are likely to have used, but I do have the
advantage of having the catalogue. In fact, windows that don't match to
Imperial sizes are in a distinct minority and are mostly casement types.

BTW, 'modern' brick sizes date back to an 18th century statute limiting
the maximum size; a result of ever increasing brick sizes to avoid the
brick tax. By the time the tax was repealed, in 1850, most brick making
was industrialised and the size was fixed by the machinery.

Colin Bignell

On Wednesday, July 17, 2013 7:40:47 AM UTC+1, Nightjar wrote:
On 16/07/2013 21:35, GMM wrote:
Unless they are an unusual size, you could buy modern timber sash
windows from somebody like Jeld-Wen and fit them yourself.

http://www.jeld-wen.co.uk/

Boggle? Aren't they *all* going to be an unusual size? (I had six
sash windows in my house, and I don't think there were two the same
size).

On Wednesday, July 17, 2013 10:43:17 AM UTC+1, Jim K wrote:
On Tuesday, July 16, 2013 9:35:03 PM UTC+1, GMM wrote:
snip

It seems to me the options (for the worst ones) a
To get new timber ones made and fitted (pretty pricey by the look of it).
Buy some plastic ones (possibly OK but not really in character with the
house).

you seen these?

http://www.quickslide.co.uk/vertical...s-features.asp

I have had 3 in for 5+years - no issues, except gas strut issue on one that is a TUIT...

From a distance you;d never know...

I've not found the ones I've seen to be very convincing - the thick meeting rails and the obviously stuck-on horns tend to be a bit of a give-away. Incidentally not all sash windows have horns - while the ones at the front in my house (occupied by 1891) have single panes and have horns, the ones in the dining room at the back, which was probably the servants hall when built, have 6 panes in each sash and no horns.
On the other hand, if you absolutely must have UPVC then I guess these are better than the usual hinged versions as replacements for sash windows.

I saw some replacement wood sash windows recently (in a village hall in Northumberland) which must have cost a fortune, with a total of 20 double glazed units in each pair of sashes...

On Tuesday, July 16, 2013 9:35:03 PM UTC+1, GMM wrote:

I have 17 (at a rough count) sash windows in various conditions from
good to buggered. Clearly, what best to do with them is a bit of an
individual decision but, if possible, I'd like to keep them broadly as
they are, only with fewer draughts and leaks.

we had most of our sash windows restored by a chap with a mobile workshop (in Cambridge). He didn't have to replace any wood though. We also had one made by a local joiner as an exact replica.

We had problems with building control about the replica one. It seems that you can't actually make a replica window that meets modern regs. In the end we did a 'mitigation calculation' and added insulation elsewhere to compensate.

Take care you don't fall foul of the 'modifying a thermal unit' rules and find your refurbished windows get rejected by BC (if they know about them). IIRC you can replace one sash and that's OK but if you replace both then the refurbished window has to meet modern regs.

"For vertical sash windows, replacement of one rot damaged sash is considered as a repair, and not within the scope of building regulations. However, if both sashes are removed and replaced with a new window system within the existing frame, this would be building work to which building regulations would apply. "

says www.ealing.gov.uk for example.

Robert

On Wednesday, July 17, 2013 4:08:55 PM UTC+1, RobertL wrote:
On Tuesday, July 16, 2013 9:35:03 PM UTC+1, GMM wrote:

I have 17 (at a rough count) sash windows in various conditions from
good to buggered. Clearly, what best to do with them is a bit of an
individual decision but, if possible, I'd like to keep them broadly as
they are, only with fewer draughts and leaks.

we had most of our sash windows restored by a chap with a mobile workshop (in Cambridge). He didn't have to replace any wood though. We also had one made by a local joiner as an exact replica.


We had problems with building control about the replica one. It seems that you can't actually make a replica window that meets modern regs. In the end we did a 'mitigation calculation' and added insulation elsewhere to compensate.

There do seem to be a number of companies making windows that are reasonably similar in appearance and (they claim) also meet the current standards, but clearly an exact replica would not have double glazing and so would only be acceptable to building control if you're in a conservation area or a listed building

Take care you don't fall foul of the 'modifying a thermal unit' rules and find your refurbished windows get rejected by BC (if they know about them).. IIRC you can replace one sash and that's OK but if you replace both then the refurbished window has to meet modern regs.

"For vertical sash windows, replacement of one rot damaged sash is considered as a repair, and not within the scope of building regulations. However, if both sashes are removed and replaced with a new window system within the existing frame, this would be building work to which building regulations would apply. "

says www.ealing.gov.uk for example.

So what happens if you do one sash - and then decide next year that the other one needs replacing...

On 17/07/2013 15:44, Martin Bonner wrote:
On Wednesday, July 17, 2013 7:40:47 AM UTC+1, Nightjar wrote:
On 16/07/2013 21:35, GMM wrote:
Unless they are an unusual size, you could buy modern timber sash
windows from somebody like Jeld-Wen and fit them yourself.

http://www.jeld-wen.co.uk/

Boggle? Aren't they *all* going to be an unusual size? (I had six
sash windows in my house, and I don't think there were two the same
size).


Unless you have a seriously weird builder, the window cavities are
determined by brick sizes. They would normally have been built to
nominal widths of 2, 3, 4 or 5.5 brick lengths, or multiples of these,
if two or more windows were to be mounted side by side. Heights would be
in multiples of 6" high, starting at a nominal 2'6" high and probably
not going above 6ft. As some of those combinations would not make very
good sash windows, there are perhaps 20 sizes of window that can be
considered usual for a Victorian house.

Colin Bignell

"Jim K" wrote in message
...
On Wednesday, July 17, 2013 7:40:47 AM UTC+1, Nightjar wrote:
On 16/07/2013 21:35, GMM wrote:

I have 17 (at a rough count) sash windows in various conditions from

good to buggered. Clearly, what best to do with them is a bit of an

individual decision but, if possible, I'd like to keep them broadly as

they are, only with fewer draughts and leaks.



The relatively good ones are easy (-ish) to draught-proof etc, but the

knackered ones are my current concern:

The worst ones have rotted through the cill and other parts of the

frame, and the sashes are looking pretty dismal too, with some frame
rot

and cracks and holes in the panes.

These might be a good place to start, as there's little to lose.



It seems to me the options (for the worst ones) a

To get new timber ones made and fitted (pretty pricey by the look of
it)....



Unless they are an unusual size, you could buy modern timber sash
windows from somebody like Jeld-Wen and fit them yourself.

http://www.jeld-wen.co.uk/

I would expect those to be standard sizes to suit modern build methods &
brick sizes, lintels etc - so a large "luck" factor retrofitting to a
period house

Also get quotes from a few builders merchants to size up the true cost.

Still not cheap, but certainly cheaper than having them made to order.

the also offer "made to measure"... at some price..

Jim K


I had an 1897 lower sash copied and installed by Fountainbridge Windows in
Edinburgh - cost £200. I have 13 sash windows - so 26 sashes. Anything in
wood can be copied and replaced - not much in upvc can. My house is stone -
so not brick sizes to guide - I think every window is slightly different.

On Wednesday, July 17, 2013 2:10:52 PM UTC+1, Nightjar wrote:
On 17/07/2013 10:40, Jim K wrote:

On Wednesday, July 17, 2013 7:40:47 AM UTC+1, Nightjar wrote:

....

Unless they are an unusual size, you could buy modern timber sash

windows from somebody like Jeld-Wen and fit them yourself.



http://www.jeld-wen.co.uk/



I would expect those to be standard sizes to suit modern build methods & brick sizes, lintels etc - so a large "luck" factor retrofitting to a period house

I would expect them to be available in all the common Imperial sizes
that Victorian builders are likely to have used, but I do have the
advantage of having the catalogue. In fact, windows that don't match to

oh & have you actually looked then? kindly confirm they are sized to fit into the "normal" recessed mason's openings that old houses have (something to do with great fire of London ISTR and trad. sash weight sash boxes)....

e.g. their online catalogue talks about frame size and mason's openings needing to be *bigger* to allow fitting - sounds wrong way around in my experience - how about yours?

Imperial sizes are in a distinct minority and are mostly casement types.

BTW, 'modern' brick sizes date back to an 18th century statute limiting
the maximum size; a result of ever increasing brick sizes to avoid the
brick tax. By the time the tax was repealed, in 1850, most brick making
was industrialised and the size was fixed by the machinery.
Colin Bignell

yet the regional variations are numerous as you will know...

another somewhat obvious difference is the mortar bed depth of old vs new brickwork but I expect you will tell me Jeld Wen have allowed for all those variations too...

Jim K

On Wednesday, July 17, 2013 3:44:22 PM UTC+1, Martin Bonner wrote:
On Wednesday, July 17, 2013 7:40:47 AM UTC+1, Nightjar wrote:

On 16/07/2013 21:35, GMM wrote:

Unless they are an unusual size, you could buy modern timber sash

windows from somebody like Jeld-Wen and fit them yourself.



http://www.jeld-wen.co.uk/



Boggle? Aren't they *all* going to be an unusual size? (I had six

sash windows in my house, and I don't think there were two the same

size).

as in "made up on site"?

Jim K

On Wednesday, July 17, 2013 4:03:52 PM UTC+1, wrote:
On Wednesday, July 17, 2013 10:43:17 AM UTC+1, Jim K wrote:

On Tuesday, July 16, 2013 9:35:03 PM UTC+1, GMM wrote:

snip



It seems to me the options (for the worst ones) a

To get new timber ones made and fitted (pretty pricey by the look of it).

Buy some plastic ones (possibly OK but not really in character with the

house).



you seen these?



http://www.quickslide.co.uk/vertical...s-features.asp



I have had 3 in for 5+years - no issues, except gas strut issue on one that is a TUIT...



From a distance you;d never know...



I've not found the ones I've seen to be very convincing - the thick meeting rails and the obviously stuck-on horns tend to be a bit of a give-away.

"thick" measured how? you mean allowing for DG units? "run through" horns are available (had you bothered to look).

Incidentally not all sash windows have horns - while the ones at the front in my house (occupied by 1891) have single panes and have horns, the ones in the dining room at the back, which was probably the servants hall when built, have 6 panes in each sash and no horns.

horns are optional (had you bothered to look), as is 6 over 6 fretwork (NOT just internal glazing bars in the DG units - to save you the bother of looking)

On the other hand, if you absolutely must have UPVC then I guess these are better than the usual hinged versions as replacements for sash windows.

otooh if you *want* to go up 3 storeys and repair & repaint faithful copies every few years so they don;t rot again, fine ;)

I saw some replacement wood sash windows recently (in a village hall in Northumberland) which must have cost a fortune, with a total of 20 double glazed units in each pair of sashes...

how "thick" were they then?

Jim K

RobertL wrote:

I have 17 (at a rough count) sash windows in various conditions from
good to buggered. Clearly, what best to do with them is a bit of an
individual decision but, if possible, I'd like to keep them broadly as
they are, only with fewer draughts and leaks.

we had most of our sash windows restored by a chap with a mobile workshop
(in Cambridge). He didn't have to replace any wood though. We also had
one made by a local joiner as an exact replica.

We had about 20 sash windows restored by an English company,
The Original Box Sash Window Co, about 12 years ago.
They had a branch in Dublin then, but I don't think they do now.

They were incredibly expensive - about ‚¬1000 per window -
but we live in a listed building and so half the cost
was met by our local authority.
About 4 of the windows were completely replaced (using the old glass).
The others were repaired.

The windows are definitely all different sizes.
The building is stone.
We were not allowed to get double glazing,
although the company said it would look exactly the same.

--
Timothy Murphy
e-mail: gayleard /at/ eircom.net
tel: +353-86-2336090, +353-1-2842366
School of Mathematics, Trinity College, Dublin 2, Ireland

On 17/07/2013 18:24, Jim K wrote:
On Wednesday, July 17, 2013 2:10:52 PM UTC+1, Nightjar wrote:
....
I would expect them to be available in all the common Imperial sizes
that Victorian builders are likely to have used, but I do have the
advantage of having the catalogue. In fact, windows that don't match to

oh & have you actually looked then? kindly confirm they are sized to fit into the "normal" recessed mason's openings that old houses have (something to do with great fire of London ISTR and trad. sash weight sash boxes)....

I can confirm that they fit the two houses I am interested in. If they
don't fit one you are interested in, I suspect it will still be cheaper
to order theirs made to measure than to have windows made up by a local
joiner.

e.g. their online catalogue talks about frame size and mason's openings needing to be *bigger* to allow fitting - sounds wrong way around in my experience - how about yours?

If you find their catalogue confusing, I suggest speaking to their
technical support, who IME are very helpful.

Colin Bignell

On Wednesday, July 17, 2013 6:43:05 PM UTC+1, Nightjar wrote:
On 17/07/2013 18:24, Jim K wrote:

On Wednesday, July 17, 2013 2:10:52 PM UTC+1, Nightjar wrote:

...

I would expect them to be available in all the common Imperial sizes

that Victorian builders are likely to have used, but I do have the

advantage of having the catalogue. In fact, windows that don't match to



oh & have you actually looked then? kindly confirm they are sized to fit into the "normal" recessed mason's openings that old houses have (something to do with great fire of London ISTR and trad. sash weight sash boxes)....



I can confirm that they fit the two houses I am interested in. If they
don't fit one you are interested in, I suspect it will still be cheaper
to order theirs made to measure than to have windows made up by a local
joiner.

have you bought some then?

e.g. their online catalogue talks about frame size and mason's openings needing to be *bigger* to allow fitting - sounds wrong way around in my experience - how about yours?



If you find their catalogue confusing, I suggest speaking to their

technical support, who IME are very helpful.

ah you don't understand it either then despite referencing it earlier ;))

Jim K

On 17/07/2013 05:01, John Rumm wrote:
On 16/07/2013 21:35, GMM wrote:

There's plenty of info around the web on the components of a box sash
window but I'm wondering if anyone here has experience of building the
whole thing from scratch.

No, but it sounds like the kind of job that would be fun to have a go
at, as long as you have access to reasonable workshop facilities.

A quick search did turn up:

http://www.timnott.co.uk/Stuff/sashwindows.pdf

This might also be worth a look:

http://openlibrary.org/books/OL24760...ry_and_joinery


I guess that' part of what I was thinking - that it could be an
achievable challenge.

That book is quite a find for all sorts of traditional methods and very
detailed. I suspect by the time I've read it all, the windows will all
have rotted away by themselves.....(!)

On 17/07/2013 10:43, Jim K wrote:
On Tuesday, July 16, 2013 9:35:03 PM UTC+1, GMM wrote:
I have 17 (at a rough count) sash windows in various conditions from

good to buggered. Clearly, what best to do with them is a bit of an

individual decision but, if possible, I'd like to keep them broadly as

they are, only with fewer draughts and leaks.



The relatively good ones are easy (-ish) to draught-proof etc, but the

knackered ones are my current concern:

The worst ones have rotted through the cill and other parts of the

frame, and the sashes are looking pretty dismal too, with some frame rot

and cracks and holes in the panes.

These might be a good place to start, as there's little to lose.



It seems to me the options (for the worst ones) a

To get new timber ones made and fitted (pretty pricey by the look of it).

Buy some plastic ones (possibly OK but not really in character with the

house).

you seen these?

http://www.quickslide.co.uk/vertical...s-features.asp

I have had 3 in for 5+years - no issues, except gas strut issue on one that is a TUIT...

From a distance you;d never know...

Jim K

I must admit that very brand was my plan A for a while. I saw some in
the flesh and they do look pretty good. The only problem is that I have
sort of persuaded myself now that I'd like the windows to all be similar.
Being in a conservation area means we have to have timber frames at the
front, so that really means timber (refurb or replace) all round.

On 17/07/2013 16:21, wrote:
On Wednesday, July 17, 2013 4:08:55 PM UTC+1, RobertL wrote:
On Tuesday, July 16, 2013 9:35:03 PM UTC+1, GMM wrote:

I have 17 (at a rough count) sash windows in various conditions from
good to buggered. Clearly, what best to do with them is a bit of an
individual decision but, if possible, I'd like to keep them broadly as
they are, only with fewer draughts and leaks.

we had most of our sash windows restored by a chap with a mobile workshop (in Cambridge). He didn't have to replace any wood though. We also had one made by a local joiner as an exact replica.


We had problems with building control about the replica one. It seems that you can't actually make a replica window that meets modern regs. In the end we did a 'mitigation calculation' and added insulation elsewhere to compensate.

There do seem to be a number of companies making windows that are reasonably similar in appearance and (they claim) also meet the current standards, but clearly an exact replica would not have double glazing and so would only be acceptable to building control if you're in a conservation area or a listed building

Take care you don't fall foul of the 'modifying a thermal unit' rules and find your refurbished windows get rejected by BC (if they know about them). IIRC you can replace one sash and that's OK but if you replace both then the refurbished window has to meet modern regs.

"For vertical sash windows, replacement of one rot damaged sash is considered as a repair, and not within the scope of building regulations. However, if both sashes are removed and replaced with a new window system within the existing frame, this would be building work to which building regulations would apply."

says www.ealing.gov.uk for example.

So what happens if you do one sash - and then decide next year that the other one needs replacing...

Indeed. And do you really have to wait a year? Maybe a day between
would be a different time.

Building control only really care about what they see. If doing a
repair doesn't need to ne notified to them well, why disturb them from
doing other things?

On Wednesday, July 17, 2013 6:40:25 PM UTC+1, Jim K wrote:
On Wednesday, July 17, 2013 4:03:52 PM UTC+1, wrote:
snip

I've not found the ones I've seen to be very convincing - the thick meeting rails and the obviously stuck-on horns tend to be a bit of a give-away.

"thick" measured how? you mean allowing for DG units? "run through" horns are available (had you bothered to look).

I was actually thinking about the top to bottom dimension, which has more effect on the appearance from any significant distance away. My comments were based on the site's picture gallery, though they would also apply to those which I've seen 'in the flesh' (which of course may not be from the same source - in fact many of the ones I've seen are less convincing than the ones in the picture gallery)

Incidentally not all sash windows have horns - while the ones at the front in my house (occupied by 1891) have single panes and have horns, the ones in the dining room at the back, which was probably the servants hall when built, have 6 panes in each sash and no horns.

horns are optional (had you bothered to look), as is 6 over 6 fretwork (NOT just internal glazing bars in the DG units - to save you the bother of looking)
I've not seen their explanation for horns before - the books I've read claim they were introduced to give extra strength at the joint when moving to the simpler mortice and tenon joint from the stronger but more time-consuming dovetail joint that was previously used. I've never come across damage to (or by) the weights caused by opening the sash too far...

On the other hand, if you absolutely must have UPVC then I guess these are better than the usual hinged versions as replacements for sash windows.

otooh if you *want* to go up 3 storeys and repair & repaint faithful copies every few years so they don;t rot again, fine ;)

I've seen it suggested that in the long term you're comparing the cost of one timber window plus regular repainting to the cost of regular replacement of UPVC when they reach end of life, and that the timber windows may be cheaper. There are so many variables here that anyone with an axe to grind can probably make their preferred option look best by making the right assumptions...

I saw some replacement wood sash windows recently (in a village hall in Northumberland) which must have cost a fortune, with a total of 20 double glazed units in each pair of sashes...

how "thick" were they then?

Pretty similar to the originals, as I remember.

On Thursday, July 18, 2013 11:30:23 AM UTC+1, wrote:

I've not found the ones I've seen to be very convincing - the thick meeting rails and the obviously stuck-on horns tend to be a bit of a give-away.

"thick" measured how? you mean allowing for DG units? "run through" horns are available (had you bothered to look).

I was actually thinking about the top to bottom dimension, which has more effect on the appearance from any significant distance away. My comments were based on the site's picture gallery, though they would also apply to those which I've seen 'in the flesh' (which of course may not be from the same source - in fact many of the ones I've seen are less convincing than the ones in the picture gallery)

indeed...

my "original" victorian replacements have 2" (50mm) "thick" meeting rails

the spec on their web says 48mm outer / 60mm inside which sounds a bit odd - I'd measure mine but the kids are in bed now ;)

I've not seen their explanation for horns before - the books I've read claim they were introduced to give extra strength at the joint when moving to the simpler mortice and tenon joint from the stronger but more time-consuming dovetail joint that was previously used. I've never come across damage to (or by) the weights caused by opening the sash too far...


me neither. I've read the horns were added to try to delay onset of rot in the joints. Traditionally (allegedly) only the top sashes would have horns.

On the other hand, if you absolutely must have UPVC then I guess these are better than the usual hinged versions as replacements for sash windows.

otooh if you *want* to go up 3 storeys and repair & repaint faithful copies every few years so they don;t rot again, fine ;)

I've seen it suggested that in the long term you're comparing the cost of one timber window plus regular repainting to the cost of regular replacement of UPVC when they reach end of life, and that the timber windows may be cheaper. There are so many variables here that anyone with an axe to grind can probably make their preferred option look best by making the right assumptions...

how much is a made to measure timber window going to cost though?

if only modern wood supplies were as good as the stuff they had in the old days.

Most modern timber windows have a 5 or 10year G'tee - so expecting much more than that is wishful perhaps...

I saw some replacement wood sash windows recently (in a village hall in Northumberland) which must have cost a fortune, with a total of 20 double glazed units in each pair of sashes...

yep a small fortune indeed...

Jim K

On Thursday, July 18, 2013 9:23:59 AM UTC+1, GMM wrote:
On 17/07/2013 10:43, Jim K wrote:

On Tuesday, July 16, 2013 9:35:03 PM UTC+1, GMM wrote:

I have 17 (at a rough count) sash windows in various conditions from



good to buggered. Clearly, what best to do with them is a bit of an



individual decision but, if possible, I'd like to keep them broadly as



they are, only with fewer draughts and leaks.







The relatively good ones are easy (-ish) to draught-proof etc, but the



knackered ones are my current concern:



The worst ones have rotted through the cill and other parts of the



frame, and the sashes are looking pretty dismal too, with some frame rot



and cracks and holes in the panes.



These might be a good place to start, as there's little to lose.







It seems to me the options (for the worst ones) a



To get new timber ones made and fitted (pretty pricey by the look of it).



Buy some plastic ones (possibly OK but not really in character with the



house).



you seen these?



http://www.quickslide.co.uk/vertical...s-features.asp



I have had 3 in for 5+years - no issues, except gas strut issue on one that is a TUIT...



From a distance you;d never know...



Jim K



I must admit that very brand was my plan A for a while. I saw some in

the flesh and they do look pretty good. The only problem is that I have

sort of persuaded myself now that I'd like the windows to all be similar.

Being in a conservation area means we have to have timber frames at the

front, so that really means timber (refurb or replace) all round.

I asked - they say:-

"Thank you for your enquiry. Yes we supply our sash windows to many properties within conservation areas."

Jim K

On 17/07/2013 18:46, Jim K wrote:
On Wednesday, July 17, 2013 6:43:05 PM UTC+1, Nightjar wrote:
.....
I can confirm that they fit the two houses I am interested in. If they
don't fit one you are interested in, I suspect it will still be cheaper
to order theirs made to measure than to have windows made up by a local
joiner.

have you bought some then?

Why all this antipathy to Jeld-Wen products? Do you get a commission on
the plastic windows you provided a link to or something?

....
If you find their catalogue confusing, I suggest speaking to their
technical support, who IME are very helpful.

ah you don't understand it either then despite referencing it earlier ;))

I spoke to them in reference to my shed door.

Colin Bignell

On 18/07/2013 21:32, Jim K wrote:
On Thursday, July 18, 2013 9:23:59 AM UTC+1, GMM wrote:
....
I must admit that very brand was my plan A for a while. I saw some in
the flesh and they do look pretty good. The only problem is that I have
sort of persuaded myself now that I'd like the windows to all be similar.
Being in a conservation area means we have to have timber frames at the
front, so that really means timber (refurb or replace) all round.

I asked - they say:-
"Thank you for your enquiry. Yes we supply our sash windows to many properties within conservation areas."

In the Q&A section, they say:

'YES, conservation areas are sometimes a bit of a sticking point, but on
the whole we have had great success. I am sure you will appreciate that
each area is different and the majority of the time you are are reliant
on one specific individual to give you green light but in our experience
we do seem to be having more and more success.'

BTW They are in breach of the law in giving prices exclusive of VAT and
delivery on a site aimed at the retail market, without showing the VAT
inclusive price at least as prominently.

Colin Bignell

On 18/07/2013 21:32, Jim K wrote:
On Thursday, July 18, 2013 9:23:59 AM UTC+1, GMM wrote:
On 17/07/2013 10:43, Jim K wrote:

On Tuesday, July 16, 2013 9:35:03 PM UTC+1, GMM wrote:

I have 17 (at a rough count) sash windows in various conditions from



good to buggered. Clearly, what best to do with them is a bit of an



individual decision but, if possible, I'd like to keep them broadly as



they are, only with fewer draughts and leaks.







The relatively good ones are easy (-ish) to draught-proof etc, but the



knackered ones are my current concern:



The worst ones have rotted through the cill and other parts of the



frame, and the sashes are looking pretty dismal too, with some frame rot



and cracks and holes in the panes.



These might be a good place to start, as there's little to lose.







It seems to me the options (for the worst ones) a



To get new timber ones made and fitted (pretty pricey by the look of it).



Buy some plastic ones (possibly OK but not really in character with the



house).



you seen these?



http://www.quickslide.co.uk/vertical...s-features.asp



I have had 3 in for 5+years - no issues, except gas strut issue on one that is a TUIT...



From a distance you;d never know...



Jim K



I must admit that very brand was my plan A for a while. I saw some in

the flesh and they do look pretty good. The only problem is that I have

sort of persuaded myself now that I'd like the windows to all be similar.

Being in a conservation area means we have to have timber frames at the

front, so that really means timber (refurb or replace) all round.

I asked - they say:-

"Thank you for your enquiry. Yes we supply our sash windows to many properties within conservation areas."

Jim K

In principle, that could easily be true: For me, the restrictions only
apply to those parts of the property visible from the street, so I could
easily have them at the back.
At the front is a different matter. My next door neighbour found that
not only do they need to be timber but also the planners insist on
hardwood, even though it's painted. They gave no reason but presumably
it's about the relative quality of the timber. On the other hand, they
were happy with the idea of double glazing.
We have a large double sash at the front of the living room and next
door were quoted £5k for replacement. He eventually paid about half
that, which I don't much fancy for one window....

All sounds a bit arbitrary doesn't it?
I'd enjoy reading their justification for specifying hardwood on appearance grounds!

Jim K

On Thursday, July 18, 2013 9:10:51 PM UTC+1, Jim K wrote:
On Thursday, July 18, 2013 11:30:23 AM UTC+1, wrote:

snip

I've seen it suggested that in the long term you're comparing the cost of one timber window plus regular repainting to the cost of regular replacement of UPVC when they reach end of life, and that the timber windows may be cheaper. There are so many variables here that anyone with an axe to grind can probably make their preferred option look best by making the right assumptions...

how much is a made to measure timber window going to cost though?

if only modern wood supplies were as good as the stuff they had in the old days.

Most modern timber windows have a 5 or 10year G'tee - so expecting much more than that is wishful perhaps...

I'd tend to use that as an argument for retaining original windows if they're in good enough condition - the wood will probably be more durable than modern replacements. Whether that's because the general quality of the older wood was better or because the windows made from poorer quality wood have long since rotted away leaving only the best ones I'm not sure...

On 19/07/2013 10:28, wrote:
On Thursday, July 18, 2013 9:10:51 PM UTC+1, Jim K wrote:
On Thursday, July 18, 2013 11:30:23 AM UTC+1,
wrote:

snip

I've seen it suggested that in the long term you're comparing the
cost of one timber window plus regular repainting to the cost of
regular replacement of UPVC when they reach end of life, and that
the timber windows may be cheaper. There are so many variables
here that anyone with an axe to grind can probably make their
preferred option look best by making the right assumptions...

how much is a made to measure timber window going to cost though?

if only modern wood supplies were as good as the stuff they had in
the old days.

Most modern timber windows have a 5 or 10year G'tee - so expecting
much more than that is wishful perhaps...

I'd tend to use that as an argument for retaining original windows if
they're in good enough condition - the wood will probably be more
durable than modern replacements. Whether that's because the general
quality of the older wood was better or because the windows made from
poorer quality wood have long since rotted away leaving only the best
ones I'm not sure...


Joinery quality softwood is as good as it ever was. Problem is there are
cheaper alternatives from Canada and elsewhere and, if the end user
doesn't know the difference.....

On 19/07/2013 07:13, Jim K wrote:
All sounds a bit arbitrary doesn't it?
I'd enjoy reading their justification for specifying hardwood on appearance grounds!

Jim K

Precisely my view, Jim. Unfortunately, they rarely seem to feel obliged
to justify themselves!

On Thursday, July 18, 2013 9:55:46 PM UTC+1, Nightjar wrote:
On 17/07/2013 18:46, Jim K wrote:

On Wednesday, July 17, 2013 6:43:05 PM UTC+1, Nightjar wrote:

....

I can confirm that they fit the two houses I am interested in. If they

don't fit one you are interested in, I suspect it will still be cheaper

to order theirs made to measure than to have windows made up by a local
joiner.

have you bought some then?

Why all this antipathy to Jeld-Wen products? Do you get a commission on
the plastic windows you provided a link to or something?


er ho ho - nope no connection except a customer.

why do you recommend Jeld Wen sash windows when you haven't bought any?

Jim K

On Thursday, July 18, 2013 9:56:38 PM UTC+1, Nightjar wrote:
On 18/07/2013 21:32, Jim K wrote:

On Thursday, July 18, 2013 9:23:59 AM UTC+1, GMM wrote:

...

I must admit that very brand was my plan A for a while. I saw some in

the flesh and they do look pretty good. The only problem is that I have

sort of persuaded myself now that I'd like the windows to all be similar.

Being in a conservation area means we have to have timber frames at the

front, so that really means timber (refurb or replace) all round.



I asked - they say:-

"Thank you for your enquiry. Yes we supply our sash windows to many properties within conservation areas."



In the Q&A section, they say:



'YES, conservation areas are sometimes a bit of a sticking point, but on

the whole we have had great success. I am sure you will appreciate that

each area is different and the majority of the time you are are reliant

on one specific individual to give you green light but in our experience

we do seem to be having more and more success.'



BTW They are in breach of the law in giving prices exclusive of VAT and

delivery on a site aimed at the retail market, without showing the VAT

inclusive price at least as prominently.


shrug?

Jim K

On Friday, July 19, 2013 10:28:43 AM UTC+1, wrote:
On Thursday, July 18, 2013 9:10:51 PM UTC+1, Jim K wrote:

On Thursday, July 18, 2013 11:30:23 AM UTC+1, wrote:



snip



I've seen it suggested that in the long term you're comparing the cost of one timber window plus regular repainting to the cost of regular replacement of UPVC when they reach end of life, and that the timber windows may be cheaper. There are so many variables here that anyone with an axe to grind can probably make their preferred option look best by making the right assumptions...



how much is a made to measure timber window going to cost though?



if only modern wood supplies were as good as the stuff they had in the old days.



Most modern timber windows have a 5 or 10year G'tee - so expecting much more than that is wishful perhaps...



I'd tend to use that as an argument for retaining original windows if they're in good enough condition - the wood will probably be more durable than modern replacements. Whether that's because the general quality of the older wood was better or because the windows made from poorer quality wood have long since rotted away leaving only the best ones I'm not sure...

then where/when on that continuum do you draw the line and decide "replacement
makes most sense"?

Jim K

On Friday, July 19, 2013 2:13:23 PM UTC+1, GMM wrote:
On 19/07/2013 07:13, Jim K wrote:

All sounds a bit arbitrary doesn't it?

I'd enjoy reading their justification for specifying hardwood on appearance grounds!



Jim K



Precisely my view, Jim. Unfortunately, they rarely seem to feel obliged

to justify themselves!

have you asked then?
do they really just make it up without justification? worth a challenge somehow shurely? or are you just trying to second guess?

Jim K

On Friday, July 19, 2013 11:28:41 AM UTC+1, stuart noble wrote:
On 19/07/2013 10:28, wrote:

On Thursday, July 18, 2013 9:10:51 PM UTC+1, Jim K wrote:

On Thursday, July 18, 2013 11:30:23 AM UTC+1,

wrote:



snip



I've seen it suggested that in the long term you're comparing the

cost of one timber window plus regular repainting to the cost of

regular replacement of UPVC when they reach end of life, and that

the timber windows may be cheaper. There are so many variables

here that anyone with an axe to grind can probably make their

preferred option look best by making the right assumptions...



how much is a made to measure timber window going to cost though?



if only modern wood supplies were as good as the stuff they had in

the old days.



Most modern timber windows have a 5 or 10year G'tee - so expecting

much more than that is wishful perhaps...



I'd tend to use that as an argument for retaining original windows if

they're in good enough condition - the wood will probably be more

durable than modern replacements. Whether that's because the general

quality of the older wood was better or because the windows made from

poorer quality wood have long since rotted away leaving only the best

ones I'm not sure...





Joinery quality softwood is as good as it ever was. Problem is there are

cheaper alternatives from Canada and elsewhere and, if the end user

doesn't know the difference.....

..... people get Pd off with wood and buy plastic?

Jim K

On 19/07/2013 15:41, Jim K wrote:
On Friday, July 19, 2013 11:28:41 AM UTC+1, stuart noble wrote:
On 19/07/2013 10:28, wrote:

On Thursday, July 18, 2013 9:10:51 PM UTC+1, Jim K wrote:

On Thursday, July 18, 2013 11:30:23 AM UTC+1,

wrote:



snip



I've seen it suggested that in the long term you're comparing the

cost of one timber window plus regular repainting to the cost of

regular replacement of UPVC when they reach end of life, and that

the timber windows may be cheaper. There are so many variables

here that anyone with an axe to grind can probably make their

preferred option look best by making the right assumptions...



how much is a made to measure timber window going to cost though?



if only modern wood supplies were as good as the stuff they had in

the old days.



Most modern timber windows have a 5 or 10year G'tee - so expecting

much more than that is wishful perhaps...



I'd tend to use that as an argument for retaining original windows if

they're in good enough condition - the wood will probably be more

durable than modern replacements. Whether that's because the general

quality of the older wood was better or because the windows made from

poorer quality wood have long since rotted away leaving only the best

ones I'm not sure...





Joinery quality softwood is as good as it ever was. Problem is there are

cheaper alternatives from Canada and elsewhere and, if the end user

doesn't know the difference.....

.... people get Pd off with wood and buy plastic?

Jim K


That's about the size of it :-)

On 19/07/2013 15:34, Jim K wrote:
On Thursday, July 18, 2013 9:55:46 PM UTC+1, Nightjar wrote:
On 17/07/2013 18:46, Jim K wrote:

On Wednesday, July 17, 2013 6:43:05 PM UTC+1, Nightjar wrote:

....

I can confirm that they fit the two houses I am interested in. If they

don't fit one you are interested in, I suspect it will still be cheaper

to order theirs made to measure than to have windows made up by a local
joiner.

have you bought some then?

Why all this antipathy to Jeld-Wen products? Do you get a commission on
the plastic windows you provided a link to or something?


er ho ho - nope no connection except a customer.

why do you recommend Jeld Wen sash windows when you haven't bought any?

No connection, except a satisfied customer over many years.

Colin Bignell