On Wed, 10 Jul 2013 09:11:47 +0100, Andy Cap wrote:

I'm really in no haste to dump the old boiler, because I doubt all the
blurb that there's these great savings to be made, because this old
boiler has cost me virtually nothing over the years and they never
factor in replacement costs or faults,

Which is fair enough modern boilers are rather complex beasts
compared to a lump of cast iron, pilot light and a gas valve. I
suspect that it's combis that are the most unreliable as they are the
most complex. A condensing system boiler sits between the cast iron
lump and combis.

... and as you say, getting hold of a gas valve will be nigh-on
impossible.

Particularly after 1800 on a Friday night in the middle of winter and
weather to match the winters of 2009/10 or 10/11...

--
Cheers
Dave.

On 09/07/2013 18:38, Adrian wrote:
The combi at our last place was just fine for rads and showers. The
biggest restriction was the speed of filling the bath...

I've just fed that back to the guy who surveyed a house for us. He still
recommends combis. Reading between the lines I think he's seen a fair
few houses wrecked by frozen pipes & tanks.

Andy

On 11/07/13 22:48, Vir Campestris wrote:
On 09/07/2013 18:38, Adrian wrote:
The combi at our last place was just fine for rads and showers. The
biggest restriction was the speed of filling the bath...

I've just fed that back to the guy who surveyed a house for us. He
still recommends combis. Reading between the lines I think he's seen a
fair few houses wrecked by frozen pipes & tanks.

Andy
Nah. His mate gets a trade deal on combis.

If there is more than one person on a house, dont get a combi.


--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc-ra-cy) €“ a system of government where the least capable to lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a diminishing number of producers.

On 11/07/2013 23:12, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 11/07/13 22:48, Vir Campestris wrote:
On 09/07/2013 18:38, Adrian wrote:
The combi at our last place was just fine for rads and showers. The
biggest restriction was the speed of filling the bath...

I've just fed that back to the guy who surveyed a house for us. He
still recommends combis. Reading between the lines I think he's seen a
fair few houses wrecked by frozen pipes & tanks.

Andy
Nah. His mate gets a trade deal on combis.

If there is more than one person on a house, dont get a combi.


Or make the combi heat a cylinder - maybe using the direct heating
capability for kitchen only. (Yes, that might imply a tank...)

--
Rod

On 11/07/13 23:18, polygonum wrote:
On 11/07/2013 23:12, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 11/07/13 22:48, Vir Campestris wrote:
On 09/07/2013 18:38, Adrian wrote:
The combi at our last place was just fine for rads and showers. The
biggest restriction was the speed of filling the bath...

I've just fed that back to the guy who surveyed a house for us. He
still recommends combis. Reading between the lines I think he's seen a
fair few houses wrecked by frozen pipes & tanks.

Andy
Nah. His mate gets a trade deal on combis.

If there is more than one person on a house, dont get a combi.


Or make the combi heat a cylinder - maybe using the direct heating
capability for kitchen only. (Yes, that might imply a tank...)

At which point the pint of a combi - that its cheap - no longer has any
relevance.

Combis are cheap because there is no header tank hot water cylinder
electricalshower pumps or heat bank.
The moment you add these back in,. it ceases to be cheap.

Or if you decide a massively powerful combi will in fact meet the needs
of two people using hot water, then its also no longer cheap.




--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc-ra-cy) €“ a system of government where the least capable to lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a diminishing number of producers.

On 11/07/2013 23:54, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 11/07/13 23:18, polygonum wrote:
On 11/07/2013 23:12, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 11/07/13 22:48, Vir Campestris wrote:
On 09/07/2013 18:38, Adrian wrote:
The combi at our last place was just fine for rads and showers. The
biggest restriction was the speed of filling the bath...

I've just fed that back to the guy who surveyed a house for us. He
still recommends combis. Reading between the lines I think he's seen a
fair few houses wrecked by frozen pipes & tanks.

Andy
Nah. His mate gets a trade deal on combis.

If there is more than one person on a house, dont get a combi.


Or make the combi heat a cylinder - maybe using the direct heating
capability for kitchen only. (Yes, that might imply a tank...)

At which point the pint of a combi - that its cheap - no longer has any
relevance.

Combis are cheap because there is no header tank hot water cylinder
electricalshower pumps or heat bank.
The moment you add these back in,. it ceases to be cheap.

Depends on how you look at it... combis are very similar to system
boilers, and are almost always based on the same platforms. However the
volume of sales quite often drives the prices of them lower than for the
equivalent system boiler in spite of having the extra PHE and diversion
valve.

(e.g. quick check at bhl.co.uk, they have a Vaillant ecotec 24kW combi
for £967, and the system boiler for £1011 even though that is petty much
a subset of the former (different firmware probably though))

There are also some situations where having the additional DHW
capability direct from the combi can be useful - typically when say the
kitchen is where the boiler is, but there is a long dead leg to the
cylinder. So using the combis DHW for just a kitchen tap can makes
sense. As could for example using it to drive a mains pressure shower
when the rest of the DHW is from a gravity fed cylinder. Chances are
even if the combi costs more, the difference is less than the cost of a
decent shower pump.

Or if you decide a massively powerful combi will in fact meet the needs
of two people using hot water, then its also no longer cheap.

Not much in it really. In my last place I needed to go the combi route
since I was losing the loft space that contained the cylinder etc. IIRC
the 35kW combi[1] was similar money to the 24kW Vaillant system boiler
that I fitted here last year.


[1] Ideal ISAR - selected because it fitted the gap in the kitchen. They
were so new then that no one knew what a dismal reputation for PCB
failures they were about to acquire! In reality the cold water main in
that place could only muster about 17 lpm, and in the summer months the
combi could just about keep pace with it at full tilt. It coped well
enough with 5 people and two bathrooms, could do one really decent
shower or two "ok" ones at the same time. Bath filling was slightly
slower but not much (which was more of a reflection of how badly the
previous stored water system worked).


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
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On 11/07/2013 23:54, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

At which point the pint of a combi - that its cheap - no longer has any
relevance.

Combis are cheap because there is no header tank hot water cylinder
electricalshower pumps or heat bank.
The moment you add these back in,. it ceases to be cheap.

Or if you decide a massively powerful combi will in fact meet the needs
of two people using hot water, then its also no longer cheap.

John makes most of the points I would have made.

You do have the option of a heatbank, as you say, so not necessarily
needing the tank & cylinder. (Yes, heatbank is close to equivalent to a
cylinder.) In some configurations of property having that near the
bathroom, and using directly heated water elsewhere will help with
design and slow delivery over long pipes.

Last time I looked, some time ago, I too found system boiler prices
higher than combis.

If potable hot water is regarded as an advantage, you also get that.

--
Rod

On Wednesday, July 10, 2013 11:55:01 AM UTC+1, Peter Crosland wrote:

Why should a professional who has invested time, effort and money in

learning his, or her, trade give you free advice? The rule of thumb is

that free advice is worth what you pay for it. Unless there is some

reasonable prospect of getting some work then you should do your own

homework. There are plenty of websites and library books to help you.

This is true.

Heating installers and repairers also get their good natures seriously abused by members of the public, calling them out for a 'free quote',
when they have no intention of giving anyone the work but are just intent on picking their brains.

Some installers will, if they suspect that is what is happening, give misleading advice.

You also get regular calls where a repairer diagnoses a fault and has to order a replacement part.
The client will then ring back (or not) and say they've got someone cheaper or they've decided to do it themselves. Or just don't return calls, when the part has been obtained, to make an appointment for it to be installed.
Most heating installers charge for the diagnosis.

I'd imagine they get seriously ****ed off after some years.

Someone should do a TV series, like Rogue Traders, but about rogue customers.
They are far more numerous.

On Friday, July 12, 2013 9:27:02 AM UTC+1, Onetap wrote:
This is true.

Heating installers and repairers also get their good natures seriously
abused by members of the public, calling them out for a 'free quote',
when they have no intention of giving anyone the work but are just intent on picking their brains.

Indeed! how *dare* customers ask questions to sift out the crabby, illiterate, dickheads who will "overprice, bodge & run" in the all too typical traditional nature of this lowly "profession"....

Some installers will, if they suspect that is what is happening, give misleading advice.

Further tarring themselves & their "trade" with more ****e...

You also get regular calls where a repairer diagnoses a fault and has to order a replacement part.

The client will then ring back (or not) and say they've got someone cheaper or they've decided to do it themselves. Or just don't return calls, when the part has been obtained, to make an appointment for it to be installed.

must be something to do with "being in business"...maybe they've checked up on reputations in the meantime...

Most heating installers charge for the diagnosis.

if they think they can get away with it...

I'd imagine they get seriously ****ed off after some years.

but the better ones who don't **** about will probably have a loyal following of repeat business, rather than a constant serial stream of dissatisfied "one offs"... with attendant moaning about their being "hard done by"...

Someone should do a TV series, like Rogue Traders, but about rogue customers.

They are far more numerous.

don't get done get Dom!

Jim K

On Friday, July 12, 2013 10:36:30 AM UTC+1, Jim K wrote:
On Friday, July 12, 2013 9:27:02 AM UTC+1, Onetap wrote:

Heating installers and repairers also get their good natures seriously

abused by members of the public, calling them out for a 'free quote',

when they have no intention of giving anyone the work but are just intent on picking their brains.



Indeed! how *dare* customers ask questions to sift out the crabby, illiterate, dickheads who will "overprice, bodge & run" in the all too typical traditional nature of this lowly "profession"....

Oh dear, you are a very angry man about heating installers.
Never mind, have a nice cup of tea and a sit down in a dark rooom.


Some installers will, if they suspect that is what is happening, give misleading advice.



Further tarring themselves & their "trade" with more ****e...

Really? How so? If they suspect they won't get any work from it and their time is being deliberately wasted, there's nothing wrong with it.
Caveat emptor.

You have been defended the rights of the clueless, incompetent and Walter Mitty types to dispense misleading advice on the Today's DIY' thread. How is this different?

The client will then ring back (or not) and say they've got someone cheaper or they've decided to do it themselves. Or just don't return calls, when the part has been obtained, to make an appointment for it to be installed.



must be something to do with "being in business"...maybe they've checked up on reputations in the meantime...

Really? You've experienced this, have you?
Like you diagnose the fault, give an estimate for a new part and they ring up to say they can get that part cheaper from another company or they're going to buy the part, now they know what's wrong, and do it themselves.

Most heating installers charge for the diagnosis.



if they think they can get away with it...

What's wrong with that?
If you called a taxi and had it standing outside your door for 15 minutes, they'd have the meter running and charge for their time, even if you decided you didn't need the taxi.

So why shouldn't a heating contractor charge for his time in fault finding, even if you decide not to use him to repair it.

I'd imagine they get seriously ****ed off after some years.



but the better ones who don't **** about will probably have a loyal following of repeat business, rather than a constant serial stream of dissatisfied "one offs"... with attendant moaning about their being "hard done by"...

Yes, they get some business that way, and they advertise and they get people trying to get something for nothing from them, as people often do.