In article , Gefreiter Krueger
scribeth thus
On Sun, 23 Jun 2013 19:33:23 +0100, Tim Watts wrote:

On Sunday 23 June 2013 18:50 Gefreiter Krueger wrote in uk.d-i-y:

On Tue, 18 Jun 2013 15:19:47 +0100, Richard Russell
wrote:

We have an extensive, professionally installed, garden lighting system
which has recently started tripping its dedicated RCD. I have
eliminated all the bulbs, luminaires and accessible cables which,
sadly, means the problem is almost certainly in one of the many
'waterproof' underground connection boxes. How on earth does one
trace a fault like this? Dig up the entire garden?

Richard.
http://www.rtrussell.co.uk/

Change it to a good old fuse. They weren't so fussy. RCDs are a pain in
the arse.


Are you insane offering that as "advice" on a public group?

No of course you should not dispense with an RCD, *especially* on an outside
domestic circuit.

We managed just fine before RCDs were invented. Why has the world turned all
girly?



Jeez!! this isn't Lootenant Pidgin who was here a while ago re incarnated?.


--
Tony Sayer

Gefreiter Krueger wrote:
On Sun, 23 Jun 2013 19:33:23 +0100, Tim Watts
wrote:
On Sunday 23 June 2013 18:50 Gefreiter Krueger wrote in uk.d-i-y:

On Tue, 18 Jun 2013 15:19:47 +0100, Richard Russell
wrote:

We have an extensive, professionally installed, garden lighting
system which has recently started tripping its dedicated RCD. I
have eliminated all the bulbs, luminaires and accessible cables
which, sadly, means the problem is almost certainly in one of the
many 'waterproof' underground connection boxes. How on earth does
one trace a fault like this? Dig up the entire garden?

Richard.
http://www.rtrussell.co.uk/

Change it to a good old fuse. They weren't so fussy. RCDs are a
pain in the arse.


Are you insane offering that as "advice" on a public group?

No of course you should not dispense with an RCD, *especially* on an
outside domestic circuit.

We managed just fine before RCDs were invented. Why has the world
turned all girly?

Suffragettes?

--
Adam

On 23/06/2013 20:01, tony sayer wrote:
In article , Gefreiter Krueger
scribeth thus
On Sun, 23 Jun 2013 18:54:32 +0100, tony sayer wrote:

In article , Gefreiter Krueger
scribeth thus
On Tue, 18 Jun 2013 15:19:47 +0100, Richard Russell
wrote:

We have an extensive, professionally installed, garden lighting system
which has recently started tripping its dedicated RCD. I have
eliminated all the bulbs, luminaires and accessible cables which,
sadly, means the problem is almost certainly in one of the many
'waterproof' underground connection boxes. How on earth does one
trace a fault like this? Dig up the entire garden?

Richard.
http://www.rtrussell.co.uk/

Change it to a good old fuse. They weren't so fussy. RCDs are a pain in the
arse.

Theres speaks someone who has never been accidentally connected across
the mains..

I have an I can tall you its ****ing painful squared!..

If I should swear(

If you're connected across the mains, the RCD won't trip. You need an earth for
that. Anyway it's only painful for a short period till you let go or fall off
the ladder.



In fact it was an electric drill, metal cased in the one hand, to an
earthed ladder and it was inside reaching out thru a window to move it a
bit sideways as it was in the way of where I was about to drill and I
can tell you if I could have fallen over I would have done anything to
"disconnect" but as your totally paralysed you cant move a bloody
thing!.

Duff house wiring that was due to and only leakage too not directly
connected but sufficient!...

Parrot boy alert... please do not feed the trolls.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On Sun, 23 Jun 2013 20:02:24 +0100, tony sayer wrote:

In article , Gefreiter Krueger
scribeth thus
On Sun, 23 Jun 2013 19:33:23 +0100, Tim Watts wrote:

On Sunday 23 June 2013 18:50 Gefreiter Krueger wrote in uk.d-i-y:

On Tue, 18 Jun 2013 15:19:47 +0100, Richard Russell
wrote:

We have an extensive, professionally installed, garden lighting system
which has recently started tripping its dedicated RCD. I have
eliminated all the bulbs, luminaires and accessible cables which,
sadly, means the problem is almost certainly in one of the many
'waterproof' underground connection boxes. How on earth does one
trace a fault like this? Dig up the entire garden?

Richard.
http://www.rtrussell.co.uk/

Change it to a good old fuse. They weren't so fussy. RCDs are a pain in
the arse.


Are you insane offering that as "advice" on a public group?

No of course you should not dispense with an RCD, *especially* on an outside
domestic circuit.

We managed just fine before RCDs were invented. Why has the world turned all
girly?



Jeez!! this isn't Lootenant Pidgin who was here a while ago re incarnated?.

I defected.

--
Landing: A controlled mid-air collision with a planet.

On Sun, 23 Jun 2013 20:13:56 +0100, ARW wrote:

Gefreiter Krueger wrote:
On Sun, 23 Jun 2013 19:33:23 +0100, Tim Watts
wrote:
On Sunday 23 June 2013 18:50 Gefreiter Krueger wrote in uk.d-i-y:

On Tue, 18 Jun 2013 15:19:47 +0100, Richard Russell
wrote:

We have an extensive, professionally installed, garden lighting
system which has recently started tripping its dedicated RCD. I
have eliminated all the bulbs, luminaires and accessible cables
which, sadly, means the problem is almost certainly in one of the
many 'waterproof' underground connection boxes. How on earth does
one trace a fault like this? Dig up the entire garden?

Richard.
http://www.rtrussell.co.uk/

Change it to a good old fuse. They weren't so fussy. RCDs are a
pain in the arse.


Are you insane offering that as "advice" on a public group?

No of course you should not dispense with an RCD, *especially* on an
outside domestic circuit.

We managed just fine before RCDs were invented. Why has the world
turned all girly?

Suffragettes?

That was the beginning of the end.

--
Landing: A controlled mid-air collision with a planet.

On Sun, 23 Jun 2013 20:01:05 +0100, tony sayer wrote:

In article , Gefreiter Krueger
scribeth thus
On Sun, 23 Jun 2013 18:54:32 +0100, tony sayer wrote:

In article , Gefreiter Krueger
scribeth thus
On Tue, 18 Jun 2013 15:19:47 +0100, Richard Russell
wrote:

We have an extensive, professionally installed, garden lighting system
which has recently started tripping its dedicated RCD. I have
eliminated all the bulbs, luminaires and accessible cables which,
sadly, means the problem is almost certainly in one of the many
'waterproof' underground connection boxes. How on earth does one
trace a fault like this? Dig up the entire garden?

Richard.
http://www.rtrussell.co.uk/

Change it to a good old fuse. They weren't so fussy. RCDs are a pain in the
arse.

Theres speaks someone who has never been accidentally connected across
the mains..

I have an I can tall you its ****ing painful squared!..

If I should swear(

If you're connected across the mains, the RCD won't trip. You need an earth for
that. Anyway it's only painful for a short period till you let go or fall off
the ladder.



In fact it was an electric drill, metal cased in the one hand, to an
earthed ladder and it was inside reaching out thru a window to move it a
bit sideways as it was in the way of where I was about to drill and I
can tell you if I could have fallen over I would have done anything to
"disconnect" but as your totally paralysed you cant move a bloody
thing!.

Duff house wiring that was due to and only leakage too not directly
connected but sufficient!...

Only the muscles the electricity is going through are paralysed. Make use of another one.

--
When the Viagra virus comes to your PC, all your software becomes hardware.

On Sun, 23 Jun 2013 20:21:32 +0100, John Rumm wrote:

On 23/06/2013 20:01, tony sayer wrote:
In article , Gefreiter Krueger
scribeth thus
On Sun, 23 Jun 2013 18:54:32 +0100, tony sayer wrote:

In article , Gefreiter Krueger
scribeth thus
On Tue, 18 Jun 2013 15:19:47 +0100, Richard Russell
wrote:



Change it to a good old fuse. They weren't so fussy. RCDs are a pain in the
arse.

Theres speaks someone who has never been accidentally connected across
the mains..

I have an I can tall you its ****ing painful squared!..

If I should swear(

If you're connected across the mains, the RCD won't trip. You need an earth for
that. Anyway it's only painful for a short period till you let go or fall off
the ladder.



In fact it was an electric drill, metal cased in the one hand, to an
earthed ladder and it was inside reaching out thru a window to move it a
bit sideways as it was in the way of where I was about to drill and I
can tell you if I could have fallen over I would have done anything to
"disconnect" but as your totally paralysed you cant move a bloody
thing!.

Duff house wiring that was due to and only leakage too not directly
connected but sufficient!...

Parrot boy alert... please do not feed the trolls.

Wimp alert.

--
"There are more planes in the ocean than submarines in the sky."
- From an old carrier sailor

On Sunday 23 June 2013 19:43 Gefreiter Krueger wrote in uk.d-i-y:


We managed just fine before RCDs were invented. Why has the world turned
all girly?


RCDs for outside leads and lawnmowers, either as fitted plugs or adaptors,
have been around since the 70's and have always be most recommended.

To come onto a public group and suggest that RCD protection be removed
because it's a bit incovenient, is uttery and grossly irresponsible.

There is a reason the current IEE/IET wiring regulations regulations require
it.

Now you are entitled to your opinion, but in these matters it is best not to
offer them to an unknown audience who might be foolish enough to follow your
advice.


--
Tim Watts Personal Blog: http://squiddy.blog.dionic.net/

http://www.sensorly.com/ Crowd mapping of 2G/3G/4G mobile signal coverage

Reading this on the web? See:
http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?title=Usenet

On Sun, 23 Jun 2013 20:30:49 +0100, Tim Watts wrote:

On Sunday 23 June 2013 19:43 Gefreiter Krueger wrote in uk.d-i-y:

We managed just fine before RCDs were invented. Why has the world turned
all girly?

RCDs for outside leads and lawnmowers, either as fitted plugs or adaptors,
have been around since the 70's and have always be most recommended.

A few safety conscious pussies have yes.

To come onto a public group and suggest that RCD protection be removed
because it's a bit incovenient, is uttery and grossly irresponsible.

There is a reason the current IEE/IET wiring regulations regulations require
it.

Because we're turning into a nation of pansies.

Now you are entitled to your opinion, but in these matters it is best not to
offer them to an unknown audience who might be foolish enough to follow your
advice.

They can think for themselves.

--
A juggler, driving to his next performance, is stopped by the police. "What are these matches and lighter fluid doing in your car?" asks the cop.
"I'm a juggler and I juggle flaming torches in my act."
"Oh yeah?" says the doubtful cop. "Lets see you do it." The juggler gets out and starts juggling the blazing torches masterfully.
A couple driving by slows down to watch. "Wow," says the driver to his wife. "I'm glad I quit drinking. Look at the test they're giving now!"

On 23/06/2013 18:47, wrote:
On Sunday, June 23, 2013 12:03:49 PM UTC+1, John Rumm wrote:

or use a flasher in the feed

I am sure you don't mean an old git in a rain coat, so could you elaborate?

If you pull the fuse or switch the mcb off, and clip a flashing
light bulb across it, you then get a mains feed that goes on and off
frequently. You can thus tell with your ground probe how much
difference the mains feed is making, it just means you can do one
sweep not 2. Its a classic old fashioned way to trace circuits.

I assumed that's what you meant, but

(a) is there any sort of two-terminal 'flashing bulb' available that
will work into the load here - predominantly the cable capacitance in
parallel with a highish resistive leak?

(b) I suspect that the flickering display on a DMM might be difficult to
interpret, especially if other time-varying voltages are present due to
other leakages, PME diverted neutral currents, etc.

I've a better idea now: instead of injecting mains, inject an audio tone
(1 to 2 kHz, say) at as high an amplitude as you can manage. You'd need
an audio sig gen and and a power amplifier with a 100V line o/p, or a
standard amplifier plus a step-up transformer. (Do ensure that the
capacitive load and the low primary DC resistance of any transformer
don't upset the amp!)

You can now use an inherently logarithmic detector to look for the
ground leakage signal, i.e. headphones + brain. The 'cans' would need
to be high impedance (Sennheiser 414's come to mind) or used with a
suitable preamp. High-pass filtering can be used to get rid of all the
50 Hz (and its harmonics) 'noise'.

--
Andy

On Monday, June 24, 2013 12:28:10 PM UTC+1, Andy Wade wrote:
On 23/06/2013 18:47, wrote:
On Sunday, June 23, 2013 12:03:49 PM UTC+1, John Rumm wrote:

or use a flasher in the feed

I am sure you don't mean an old git in a rain coat, so could you elaborate?

If you pull the fuse or switch the mcb off, and clip a flashing
light bulb across it, you then get a mains feed that goes on and off
frequently. You can thus tell with your ground probe how much
difference the mains feed is making, it just means you can do one
sweep not 2. Its a classic old fashioned way to trace circuits.

I assumed that's what you meant, but
(a) is there any sort of two-terminal 'flashing bulb' available that
will work into the load here - predominantly the cable capacitance in
parallel with a highish resistive leak?

You can switch a filament lamp on to give it some load.

I havent seen thermal flashers in decades, you could probably make an equivalent using a relay though, with RC charging.


(b) I suspect that the flickering display on a DMM might be difficult to
interpret, especially if other time-varying voltages are present due to
other leakages, PME diverted neutral currents, etc.

Sure, you need either audio detection or an analogue meter.


I've a better idea now: instead of injecting mains, inject an audio tone
(1 to 2 kHz, say) at as high an amplitude as you can manage. You'd need
an audio sig gen and and a power amplifier with a 100V line o/p, or a
standard amplifier plus a step-up transformer.

mains transformers are fine at that freq.

(Do ensure that the
capacitive load and the low primary DC resistance of any transformer
don't upset the amp!)

At least 5ohms dc for an 8 ohm amp, preferably 8.

You can now use an inherently logarithmic detector to look for the
ground leakage signal, i.e. headphones + brain. The 'cans' would need
to be high impedance (Sennheiser 414's come to mind) or used with a
suitable preamp.

A simple opamp can get you a wide range of gain

High-pass filtering can be used to get rid of all the
50 Hz (and its harmonics) 'noise'.


yes, if needed. Even if 50Hz drove the opamp to clipping it wouldnt stop the tone indication working.

You might just use a self oscillating relay direct on the mains, with a series lamp to limit i and a 2nd parallel lamp to limit V_out to 50v max. A small relay chopping mains at 200Hz or so would get you a very different sound to 50Hz. Hi tech stuff.


NT