....or at least the central heating and fridge running?

Obviously I realise that a "rock bottom bargain basement" generator could
turn out to be a false economy but I also don't want to spend too much on
an insurance product I may never need.

Suggestions?

Tim

On Mon, 25 Mar 2013 21:18:03 +0000, Tim+ wrote:

....or at least the central heating and fridge running?

One of the "little stinky" two stroke jobbies will do that, though may
cough and struggle a bit if one is already on and the other starts. They
are a little noisey though, in fact all open frame sets are noisy, some
more than others. Our 2 kVA diesel is very noisy (PARDON!! CAN'T HEAR YOU
OVER THE GENERATOR...).

If I had the money I'd get a Honda 2 kVA invertor type, they really are
very quiet and you can link two together to get more power. The power is
also nice and clean and a decent waveform, so electronics don't object.
The Kipor chineses clones seem to get decent reports.

Only the fridge, no freezer? Or is it a single fridge/freezer unit (one
or two compressors?). Currently keeping the fridge going isn't required,
it's colder outside than it is in the fridge. It's not (yet) colder than
the inside of the freezer...

--
Cheers
Dave.

On Monday, March 25, 2013 9:18:03 PM UTC, Tim+ wrote:
...or at least the central heating and fridge running?

Suggestions?

Put a tetrapak or 2 in the fridge's icebox if it has one. Solved.
Use the gas hob/oven if you have one. Solved.
Gaslight beats batteries.

All far easier, cheaper & more reliable than a genny

NT

On Mon, 25 Mar 2013 16:56:19 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

Put a tetrapak or 2 in the fridge's icebox if it has one. Solved.

For a day maybe, depending on how often you open the door. How many days
have several thousand customers on Arran and Kintyre been off supply now?

TBH even in the summer I'd not be to fussed about the fridge, make up an
evaporative cooler of some kind and stick it outside in the shade and
breeze. The freezer on the other hand...

Use the gas hob/oven if you have one. Solved.

Don't have, well not mains gas. The backup for the lecky cooking is a gas
camping hob & grill.

Gaslight beats batteries.

Agreed.

All far easier, cheaper & more reliable than a genny

Genny keeps the freezers and CH running. When it's -4 C outside and
blowing F5 this place loses heat very rapidly. It was 19.5 at 2200 last
night, 6hrs later it's down to a decidedly chilly, 15 C and the heating
is about to kick in...

--
Cheers
Dave.

On 26/03/2013 03:46, Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Mon, 25 Mar 2013 16:56:19 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

Put a tetrapak or 2 in the fridge's icebox if it has one. Solved.

For a day maybe, depending on how often you open the door. How many days
have several thousand customers on Arran and Kintyre been off supply now?

TBH even in the summer I'd not be to fussed about the fridge, make up an
evaporative cooler of some kind and stick it outside in the shade and
breeze. ...

I have a couple of unglazed terracotta coolers, each with its own glazed
dish to hold water. One is designed to go over a milk bottle and the
other is a butter dish. Relics of camping in the 1950s.

Colin Bignell

In article ,
Nightjar writes:

I have a couple of unglazed terracotta coolers, each with its own glazed
dish to hold water. One is designed to go over a milk bottle and the
other is a butter dish. Relics of camping in the 1950s.

My parents bought me those when I went to university in 1980.

A few months later, I bought a peltier-effect cooler box instead,
in part because I was studying physics and it was the first time
I'd seen a peltier-effect device in a real application, and it
was in a sale at John Lewis.

I still have the cooler box, which did 3 years continuous use at
university, and then another 10 years use in various offices I've
been in since. It's on its 3rd peltier element, 4th fan, and 2nd
power supply, and has a home-made aluminium catch after the
original plastic snapped. I added proper thermostatic control
using one of the Maplin digital thermostat modules, after the
original control board stopped working.

It's not in regular use since use since 2000, but has been dug
out for use over Christmas when lots of family are visiting,
and long car journeys.

Actually, I bought another one at one point when it was on
long-term loan to another student and I needed one, and that
one is still fine too, but it never had thermostatic control.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

On 28/03/13 11:14, Huge wrote:
On 2013-03-28, Nightjar wrote:
On 26/03/2013 03:46, Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Mon, 25 Mar 2013 16:56:19 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

Put a tetrapak or 2 in the fridge's icebox if it has one. Solved.

For a day maybe, depending on how often you open the door. How many days
have several thousand customers on Arran and Kintyre been off supply now?


Not long enough to stop them voting for Salmond and his whirligigs I
suspect.

I suspect that refrigeration is the least of their worries.


See above.

--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc-ra-cy) €“ a system of government where the least capable to
lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the
members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are
rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a
diminishing number of producers.

On Tue, 26 Mar 2013 03:46:02 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Liquorice"
wrote:

Don't have, well not mains gas. The backup for the lecky cooking is a gas
camping hob & grill.

What's the grill like? I was thinking of buying one of these as a
back-up for when the electricity fails (we have no mains gas) but I
was talked out of it by reading all the reviews, which said the grill
was useless. TIA

On Sun, 31 Mar 2013 09:22:38 +0100, Fred wrote:

Don't have, well not mains gas. The backup for the lecky cooking is a
gas camping hob & grill.

What's the grill like?

Small, you can get two slices of bread on the pan but it does the job.
I wouldn't be surprised if people are disappointed by the grill as they
expect it to be the full width of the stove and it isn't, it's only about
half the width.

Ours is looks to be discontinued now but is similar to the current
Camping Chef model. Except ours has solid hinged sides and gas entry is
at the rear left corner pointing to the left. I prefer it to a single
burner above a bottle type stove as it's far more stable when actually
cooking something rather than just boiling a kettle. Also being much
lower it's easier to use when on a worktop.

We run it from a standard 7kg butane bottle (blue) you will probably have
to buy a regulator/bottle connector, possibly a length of low pressure
hose and a couple fo jubille clips. I know the regulator and clips
weren't supplied not sure about the hose.

--
Cheers
Dave.

On Sun, 31 Mar 2013 13:06:56 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Liquorice"
wrote:

I wouldn't be surprised if people are disappointed by the grill as they
expect it to be the full width of the stove and it isn't, it's only about
half the width.

Thanks. I wouldn't mind if it was only half the width, as long as it
works.

Ours is looks to be discontinued now but is similar to the current
Camping Chef model. Except ours has solid hinged sides and gas entry is
at the rear left corner pointing to the left.

The reviews seems to suggest that corners have been cut and the newer
camping chef ones are made of thinner metal.

We run it from a standard 7kg butane bottle (blue) you will probably have
to buy a regulator/bottle connector, possibly a length of low pressure
hose and a couple fo jubille clips. I know the regulator and clips
weren't supplied not sure about the hose.

I think that was another reason I never got around to it: having to
buy the gas bottle and pay the deposit made the gas more expensive
than the stove!

On Tue, 26 Mar 2013 09:57:23 GMT, Jethro_uk wrote:

Put a tetrapak or 2 in the fridge's icebox if it has one. Solved.

For a day maybe, depending on how often you open the door. How many
days have several thousand customers on Arran and Kintyre been off
supply now?

True. But I would have thought keeping things frozen isn't an issue for
them


It's not freezer cold (below -15 C) up there! Not sure I'd be happy about
stuff that had been allowed to warm up to -3 or -4 C for several days...

--
Cheers
Dave.

"Tim+" wrote in message
...
...or at least the central heating and fridge running?

Obviously I realise that a "rock bottom bargain basement" generator could
turn out to be a false economy but I also don't want to spend too much on
an insurance product I may never need.

Suggestions?

Tim

I have a Kipor IG2000. It will happily run c/h, fridge, freezer, lights, TV
and computers. We get a lot of power cuts.

You will also need a transfer switch - about £60 on ebay.

On Tue, 26 Mar 2013 05:42:53 -0000, Vic wrote:

You will also need a transfer switch - about £60 on ebay.

And a proper installed earth spike, discconect the suppliers earth, make
the correct bondings to the genset and still treat it as TT.

Simpler to leave the phases from the generator floating and run extension
leads to the appliances you want to maintain.

--
Cheers
Dave.

On Tuesday 26 March 2013 09:06 Dave Liquorice wrote in uk.d-i-y:

On Tue, 26 Mar 2013 05:42:53 -0000, Vic wrote:

You will also need a transfer switch - about £60 on ebay.

And a proper installed earth spike, discconect the suppliers earth, make
the correct bondings to the genset and still treat it as TT.

Simpler to leave the phases from the generator floating and run extension
leads to the appliances you want to maintain.


Or install a generator fed radial to sockets next to each appliance (3
perhaps, CH feed, internet stuff, gas cooker, maybe a coupel more sockets
for lights). Arrnage the CH to be plugged in rather than hard wired, so the
plug can be removed and reinserted into the genny circuit.

However, the point of having a TT spike still stands - you cannot rely on
the supplier's earth during failures. The slightly trickier problem is that
your TT earth needs to be main bonded to water pipes etc while the generator
is running - but I *really* cannot answer if it is permissible to bond a
local TT rod to the supplier earth. Perhaps one of our more knowledgeable
folk could comment?


Obviously the circuit should be RCD protected as well.

But this is a fairly simple arrangement. The RCD and earthing problems
remain even if using extension leads, if you are trying to do it properly
and safely.


--
Tim Watts Personal Blog: http://squiddy.blog.dionic.net/

http://www.sensorly.com/ Crowd mapping of 2G/3G/4G mobile signal coverage

Reading this on the web? See:
http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?title=Usenet

On Tue, 26 Mar 2013 09:46:02 +0000, Tim Watts wrote:

But this is a fairly simple arrangement. The RCD and earthing problems
remain even if using extension leads, if you are trying to do it
properly and safely.

Not quite as either phase from the genset is floating so, in theory,
doesn't pose quite the same shock hazard as the live does in a
conventional system.

It does get complicated if you try an emulate the conventional mains
supply system from a genset. You need a local earth spike, that needs to
be bonded to one of the gensets two phases and to the genset frame. As
you say you can't rely on the suppliers earth being earth during supply
fault conditions so you need to isolate that and of course the live and
neutral of the supply. Putting an isolation switch into the supliers
earth connection to the local distribution opens up a "fail safe" can of
worms... And it's still a TT system so really does need a 30mA RCD.

It's far simpler to have the phases from the genset floating and run
extension leads, or completely independant, genset only, distribution
wiring. A RCD at the genset would be additional protection but not quite
as important as a system with one phase bonded to the local earth spike.

--
Cheers
Dave.

On Tuesday 26 March 2013 10:21 Dave Liquorice wrote in uk.d-i-y:

On Tue, 26 Mar 2013 09:46:02 +0000, Tim Watts wrote:

But this is a fairly simple arrangement. The RCD and earthing problems
remain even if using extension leads, if you are trying to do it
properly and safely.

Not quite as either phase from the genset is floating so, in theory,
doesn't pose quite the same shock hazard as the live does in a
conventional system.

Whilst that is true, it is not in the ELV band that a centre earthed 110V
site transformer would be.

I'm also not sure I'd be prepared to consider it fully floating either - it
depends if the generator has its neutral tied to the frame or not[1] and if
that frame is earthed, even superficially by sitting on wet ground.

[1] Not seen many generators close up - but I wouldn't want to make any
assumptions.

It does get complicated if you try an emulate the conventional mains
supply system from a genset. You need a local earth spike, that needs to
be bonded to one of the gensets two phases and to the genset frame. As
you say you can't rely on the suppliers earth being earth during supply
fault conditions so you need to isolate that and of course the live and
neutral of the supply. Putting an isolation switch into the supliers
earth connection to the local distribution opens up a "fail safe" can of
worms... And it's still a TT system so really does need a 30mA RCD.

It's far simpler to have the phases from the genset floating and run
extension leads, or completely independant, genset only, distribution
wiring. A RCD at the genset would be additional protection but not quite
as important as a system with one phase bonded to the local earth spike.


At least with an RCD (and this must be a 30mA 40mS type, not a time delayed
type), the risk is much mitigated...




--
Tim Watts Personal Blog: http://squiddy.blog.dionic.net/

http://www.sensorly.com/ Crowd mapping of 2G/3G/4G mobile signal coverage

Reading this on the web? See:
http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?title=Usenet

In article o.uk,
"Dave Liquorice" writes:
It's far simpler to have the phases from the genset floating and run
extension leads, or completely independant, genset only, distribution
wiring. A RCD at the genset would be additional protection but not quite
as important as a system with one phase bonded to the local earth spike.

The flame detection circuit of some boilers requires that the neutral
is close to earth potential and the live and neutral are the right
way around.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

On 26/03/2013 05:42, Vic wrote:
"Tim+" wrote in message
...
...or at least the central heating and fridge running?

Obviously I realise that a "rock bottom bargain basement" generator could
turn out to be a false economy but I also don't want to spend too much on
an insurance product I may never need.

Suggestions?

Tim

I have a Kipor IG2000. It will happily run c/h, fridge, freezer, lights, TV
and computers. We get a lot of power cuts.

You will also need a transfer switch - about £60 on ebay.

Dreadful reviews on Amazon
http://www.amazon.co.uk/product-revi...owViewpoints=1

On Tuesday, March 26, 2013 9:12:53 AM UTC, GB wrote:
On 26/03/2013 05:42, Vic wrote:

"Tim+" wrote in message

...

...or at least the central heating and fridge running?



Obviously I realise that a "rock bottom bargain basement" generator could

turn out to be a false economy but I also don't want to spend too much on

an insurance product I may never need.



Suggestions?



Tim



I have a Kipor IG2000. It will happily run c/h, fridge, freezer, lights, TV

and computers. We get a lot of power cuts.



You will also need a transfer switch - about �60 on ebay.



Dreadful reviews on Amazon

http://www.amazon.co.uk/product-revi...owViewpoints=1

Thats only two reviews.

On Mar 25, 9:18*pm, Tim+
wrote:
...or at least the central heating and fridge running?

Obviously I realise that a "rock bottom bargain basement" generator could
turn out to be a false economy but I also don't want to spend too much on
an insurance product I may never need.

Suggestions?

Tim

The problem with a generator is keeping enough fuel to run it to hand
(bearing in mind you might not be able to get any more)
One solution is to have an arrangement to get petrol out of your car
and keep two stroke oil handy (If a 2T generator).
The fuel goes off (volatiles evaporate) after a while in store.

However you need lots of fuel for continuous running & some of the el-
cheapo generators aren't intended to be run for hours and hours.

On Tue, 26 Mar 2013 01:04:54 -0700 (PDT), harry
wrote:

On Mar 25, 9:18*pm, Tim+
wrote:
...or at least the central heating and fridge running?

Obviously I realise that a "rock bottom bargain basement" generator could
turn out to be a false economy but I also don't want to spend too much on
an insurance product I may never need.

Suggestions?

Tim

The problem with a generator is keeping enough fuel to run it to hand
(bearing in mind you might not be able to get any more)
One solution is to have an arrangement to get petrol out of your car
and keep two stroke oil handy (If a 2T generator).
The fuel goes off (volatiles evaporate) after a while in store.


Really? Oddly enough, we had an 18 hour power cuton Saturday and I had
to drag our generator out, which hadn't been touched for a couple of
years. Once I'd persuaded the starter to actually turn the engine, it
started straight away and run without problems on the 2 year old
petrol. I then refilled it with petrol that had been stored for at
least 6 months and it ran on that without any issues. Maybe you should
use containers that don't leak.

On Tuesday, March 26, 2013 9:10:17 AM UTC, Bill Taylor wrote:
On Tue, 26 Mar 2013 01:04:54 -0700 (PDT), harry

wrote:



On Mar 25, 9:18�pm, Tim+

wrote:

...or at least the central heating and fridge running?



Obviously I realise that a "rock bottom bargain basement" generator could

turn out to be a false economy but I also don't want to spend too much on

an insurance product I may never need.



Suggestions?



Tim



The problem with a generator is keeping enough fuel to run it to hand

(bearing in mind you might not be able to get any more)

One solution is to have an arrangement to get petrol out of your car

and keep two stroke oil handy (If a 2T generator).

The fuel goes off (volatiles evaporate) after a while in store.





Really? Oddly enough, we had an 18 hour power cuton Saturday and I had

to drag our generator out, which hadn't been touched for a couple of

years. Once I'd persuaded the starter to actually turn the engine, it

started straight away and run without problems on the 2 year old

petrol. I then refilled it with petrol that had been stored for at

least 6 months and it ran on that without any issues. Maybe you should

use containers that don't leak.

I would agree. We ran a cruiser for many years with a Volvo V8 petrol engine and we never had problems with the fuel, even if she had been left idle for over a year.

On Tue, 26 Mar 2013 01:04:54 -0700 (PDT), harry wrote:

The problem with a generator is keeping enough fuel to run it to hand
(bearing in mind you might not be able to get any more)
One solution is to have an arrangement to get petrol out of your car

Assuming you have a genset and car(s) that run on the same fuel... We do
but it's not petrol. Red diesel for the genset is considerably cheaper
than road fuel and can be bought and stored in sensible quantities. B-)

IIRC the limits on petrol within 6m of a building (ie most homes) is 2 x
10l in suitable metal containers and 2 x 5l in approved plastic. That is
total so if you have 5l in the back of your car that is included but not
the petrol in vehicle fuel tank. *Never* store petrol inside the home.

The fuel goes off (volatiles evaporate) after a while in store.

How does that happen with a decent sealed container? Can't say I've ever
had any proplems with "old" stored petrol or even that left in a fuel
tank (and thus has a breather) of the four stroke mower or two stroke
strimmer. I have a sneaky suspiscion that this "stale petrol" orginates
from the US, their formulation(s) of petrol and doesn't apply to the UK
formulations.

However you need lots of fuel for continuous running

My 2 kVA diesel uses less than a litre an hour running the CH(*), upright
freezer and twin compressor fridge/freezer.

... & some of the el-cheapo generators aren't intended to be run for
hours and hours.

Many small 4 stroke engines have runtimes between oil changes of 25 hrs
or so and "full service" intervals of 100 hrs.

(*) Oil boiler and up to four circulating pumps plus valves and
timers/stats etc.

--
Cheers
Dave.

On 26/03/2013 09:37, Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Tue, 26 Mar 2013 01:04:54 -0700 (PDT), harry wrote:

The fuel goes off (volatiles evaporate) after a while in store.

How does that happen with a decent sealed container? Can't say I've ever
had any proplems with "old" stored petrol or even that left in a fuel
tank (and thus has a breather) of the four stroke mower or two stroke
strimmer. I have a sneaky suspiscion that this "stale petrol" orginates
from the US, their formulation(s) of petrol and doesn't apply to the UK
formulations.


I wonder whether some of the issue is "wrong time of year" petrol?

That is, using summer petrol in cold weather; or winter petrol on hot days.

--
Rod

On Tue, 26 Mar 2013 10:04:52 +0000, polygonum wrote:

I wonder whether some of the issue is "wrong time of year" petrol?

That is, using summer petrol in cold weather; or winter petrol on hot
days.

There is "summer" and "winter" diesel but I don't think they fiddle with
petrol on a seasonal basis. Petrol doesn't wax...

--
Cheers
Dave.

On 26/03/2013 11:13, Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Tue, 26 Mar 2013 10:04:52 +0000, polygonum wrote:

I wonder whether some of the issue is "wrong time of year" petrol?

That is, using summer petrol in cold weather; or winter petrol on hot
days.

There is "summer" and "winter" diesel but I don't think they fiddle with
petrol on a seasonal basis. Petrol doesn't wax...

It doesn't wax but its volatility is the issue.

First quote I found:

"Petrol has a higher volatility in the winter in order to enable cold
starting. For this reason it is better to fill the tank with a winter
grade fuel (16th October - 14th April) rather than a summer grade."

http://www.swtvc.org.uk/node/35

I have believed this to be the case since I was in my teens - but, of
course, belief does not always reflect reality!

--
Rod

On Tue, 26 Mar 2013 09:37:31 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Liquorice"
wrote:

Assuming you have a genset and car(s) that run on the same fuel... We do
but it's not petrol. Red diesel for the genset is considerably cheaper
than road fuel and can be bought and stored in sensible quantities. B-)

Does your boiler use red diesel or kerosene? It would be great if you
could have one tank to supply the boiler and the generator but when I
looked at new oil boilers, they all seemed to be kerosene.

BTW how do red diesel and kerosene compare in price per litre? In
another thread it said that oil was 10kW/L. Is red diesel about the
same?

(*) Oil boiler and up to four circulating pumps plus valves and
timers/stats etc.

May I ask why you have four pumps?

Thanks.

On Sun, 31 Mar 2013 09:55:17 +0100, Fred wrote:

Does your boiler use red diesel or kerosene?

Kerosene, most if not all modern boilers will be kerosene. It might be
possible to change the jet to use red but you wouldn't want to. See
below.

BTW how do red diesel and kerosene compare in price per litre?

The local Spar currently has red advertised at 94p/l. The garage across
the road sold me a drum of red (25l) for 90p/l in Dec 2011.

Red should always be 20 to 30p p/l higher than kerosene as it attracts
something around 13p/l duty and you will almost certainly pay VAT at 20%
as well (on top of the duty). Kerosene for domestic heating has no duty
and VAT at 5%.

With kerosene at about 60p/l ex VAT ATM I'd expect red to be 60 + 13
duty + 15 VAT = 88p/l ish.

In another thread it said that oil was 10kW/L. Is red diesel about the
same?

Diesel is slightly above 10kwHr/l, kerosene slightly below.

(*) Oil boiler and up to four circulating pumps plus valves and
timers/stats etc.

May I ask why you have four pumps?

Solar thermal, wood burner (but will gravity circulate), central heating
and oil boiler.

--
Cheers
Dave.

On Sun, 31 Mar 2013 13:29:43 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Liquorice"
wrote:

Kerosene, most if not all modern boilers will be kerosene. It might be
possible to change the jet to use red but you wouldn't want to. See
below.

Perhaps it would be better to modify the generator to use kerosene?!
Would that be possible?

The local Spar currently has red advertised at 94p/l. The garage across
the road sold me a drum of red (25l) for 90p/l in Dec 2011.

That's getting on for twice the price of kerosene, which is another
reason not to do it.

Solar thermal, wood burner (but will gravity circulate), central heating
and oil boiler.

Ah, one for each system.

Thanks.

On 25/03/2013 21:18, Tim+ wrote:
...or at least the central heating and fridge running?

Obviously I realise that a "rock bottom bargain basement" generator could
turn out to be a false economy but I also don't want to spend too much on
an insurance product I may never need.

Suggestions?

Tim

For running anything containing electronics (CH boilers, TVs, etc.) you
need good voltage stability and a decent (near sine wave) waveform. You
won't get that from an el-cheapo generator and, furthermore, such a
generator will be very noisy.

You really need an inverter-based generator. Honda make the best ones,
but they are expensive. 'Clones' are made by the likes of Kapur and
Clarke (Toolstation) - but check the reviews before buying one of these.

Unless you're going to have an elaborate change-over mechanism (and even
then, a small genny will only handle a small part of the overall
household electrical requirement) it's best to power just the essential
things through an extension lead - so that there's no connection
whatever between the genny and the mains wiring. This means that the CH
will have to be powered from a 13A plug rather than an FCU, so that it
can be unplugged from its socket and plugged into the genny.

From a safety point of view, you'll need an earth spike which grounds
the frame of the genny, and then connect your extension lead via an RCD.
Since the genny output will be floating, you may need to strap one side
- the side connected to your neutral wire - of this to earth to make
your boiler work. [Others will explain this better, but boilers which
utilise flame ionisation to detect that the pilot is lit before
energising the main gas valve apparently need N to be referenced to E.]

I've got a Honda EU20i which I bought a few years ago for this exact
purpose. I've not yet had to use it in anger - but I do run it for a few
minutes each month to make sure that it still works(!) - and I have
tested it with the CH, which I have wired to a 13A plug, as suggested
above. This has an output of 2kW - and I wouldn't recommend anything
smaller if running freezers, etc. because - although the running current
is quite low, the start-up currents can be considerably higher. [For
example, my genny is fussy about which of my power tools it will drive -
and it won't even begin to start my 1.8kW compressor].
--
Cheers,
Roger
____________
Please reply to Newsgroup. Whilst email address is valid, it is seldom
checked.

On Tue, 26 Mar 2013 12:06:02 +0000, Roger Mills wrote:

Since the genny output will be floating, you may need to strap one
side - the side connected to your neutral wire - of this to earth to
make your boiler work. [Others will explain this better, but boilers
which utilise flame ionisation to detect that the pilot is lit before
energising the main gas valve apparently need N to be referenced to E.]

Yeah, can be a problem with gas boilers. If you do have to bond one of
the generator phases to earth(*), making a "neutral" then an RCD at the
generator really is required. I guess you could feed the CH/boiler via an
isolating transformer and do the bonding on the isolated side, thus
maintaining the floating side but TBH the RCD is probably the better
solution.

I've got a Honda EU20i which I bought a few years ago for this exact
purpose. I've not yet had to use it in anger - but I do run it for a
few minutes each month to make sure that it still works(!)

That might be a mistake. Many a standby generator "tested" by simply
starting for a few minutes, off load, each month has failed when required
to actually do the work it is there to do. I drag ours out when I
remember 6 months or so since the last use, start it up, hang a 1 kW fan
heater off it and let it run for over an hour, I also switch the heater
up to 2 kW and down to fan only a few times to check it throttles up/down
correctly.

(*) I suspect that "earth" is just the chassis of the boiler but that
could well be connected to the main earth terminal via the pipeworks
equipotential bonding. The main earth terminal is the suppliers earth
which may or may not remain real earth under supply fault conditions.
Adding a local earth spike to the main earth terminal might not be a Good
Idea or even against the regs with some supply types. See it gets
complicated, maybe that isolating transformer isn't such a Bad Idea after
all...

--
Cheers
Dave.

On Tue, 26 Mar 2013 12:35:02 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Liquorice"
wrote:


I've got a Honda EU20i which I bought a few years ago for this exact
purpose. I've not yet had to use it in anger - but I do run it for a
few minutes each month to make sure that it still works(!)

That might be a mistake. Many a standby generator "tested" by simply
starting for a few minutes, off load, each month has failed when required
to actually do the work it is there to do. I drag ours out when I
remember 6 months or so since the last use, start it up, hang a 1 kW fan
heater off it and let it run for over an hour, I also switch the heater
up to 2 kW and down to fan only a few times to check it throttles up/down
correctly.

In a commercial setting we used to run our two 750 kVA Rolls Royce
sets every 6 months for 30 minutes and test the dedicated circuits. In
the nearly 4 years I was there they were only needed once in anger and
they functioned perfectly.
--
rbel

On Mar 27, 11:20*pm, rbel wrote:
On Tue, 26 Mar 2013 12:35:02 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Liquorice"

wrote:

I've got a Honda EU20i which I bought a few years ago for this exact
purpose. I've not yet had to use it in anger - but I do run it for a
few minutes each month to make sure that it still works(!)

That might be a mistake. Many a standby generator "tested" by simply
starting for a few minutes, off load, each month has failed when required
to actually do the work it is there to do. I drag ours out when I
remember 6 months or so since the last use, start it up, hang a 1 kW fan
heater off it and let it run for over an hour, I also switch the heater
up to 2 kW and down to fan only a few times to check it throttles up/down
correctly.

In a commercial setting we used to run our two 750 kVA Rolls Royce
sets every 6 months for 30 minutes and test the dedicated circuits. In
the nearly 4 years I was there they were only needed once in anger and
they functioned perfectly.
--
rbel

I worked in the NHS.
We tested our automatic standby generators generators by turning off
the HV electricity supply to the hospital once a week. In nearly forty
years, I only once saw serious use made of them. Usually around a
weeks supply of fuel is held (red diesel)
Many hospitals are part of a HV ring main hence the supply is very
secure.

In article
, harry
wrote:
On Mar 27, 11:20 pm, rbel wrote:
On Tue, 26 Mar 2013 12:35:02 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Liquorice"

wrote:

I've got a Honda EU20i which I bought a few years ago for this exact
purpose. I've not yet had to use it in anger - but I do run it for a
few minutes each month to make sure that it still works(!)

That might be a mistake. Many a standby generator "tested" by simply
starting for a few minutes, off load, each month has failed when
required to actually do the work it is there to do. I drag ours out
when I remember 6 months or so since the last use, start it up, hang a
1 kW fan heater off it and let it run for over an hour, I also switch
the heater up to 2 kW and down to fan only a few times to check it
throttles up/down correctly.

In a commercial setting we used to run our two 750 kVA Rolls Royce sets
every 6 months for 30 minutes and test the dedicated circuits. In the
nearly 4 years I was there they were only needed once in anger and they
functioned perfectly. -- rbel

I worked in the NHS. We tested our automatic standby generators
generators by turning off the HV electricity supply to the hospital once
a week. In nearly forty years, I only once saw serious use made of them.
Usually around a weeks supply of fuel is held (red diesel) Many hospitals
are part of a HV ring main hence the supply is very secure.

like BBC TV Centre was in 1964!

--
From KT24

Using a RISC OS computer running v5.18

rbel wrote:
On Tue, 26 Mar 2013 12:35:02 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Liquorice"
wrote:


I've got a Honda EU20i which I bought a few years ago for this exact
purpose. I've not yet had to use it in anger - but I do run it for a
few minutes each month to make sure that it still works(!)

That might be a mistake. Many a standby generator "tested" by simply
starting for a few minutes, off load, each month has failed when required
to actually do the work it is there to do. I drag ours out when I
remember 6 months or so since the last use, start it up, hang a 1 kW fan
heater off it and let it run for over an hour, I also switch the heater
up to 2 kW and down to fan only a few times to check it throttles up/down
correctly.

In a commercial setting we used to run our two 750 kVA Rolls Royce
sets every 6 months for 30 minutes and test the dedicated circuits. In
the nearly 4 years I was there they were only needed once in anger and
they functioned perfectly.

Whereas an identical setup at a place I worked, with the same test regime
failed the night the lights went out.

--
€¢DarWin|
_/ _/

On Thu, 28 Mar 2013 17:14:52 +0000 (UTC), Steve Firth
wrote:


In a commercial setting we used to run our two 750 kVA Rolls Royce
sets every 6 months for 30 minutes and test the dedicated circuits. In
the nearly 4 years I was there they were only needed once in anger and
they functioned perfectly.

Whereas an identical setup at a place I worked, with the same test regime
failed the night the lights went out.

Ah, but we had a Chief Engineer who was very keen on preventative
maintenance! My theory was that it was purely to justify budget
enhancement and empire building
--
rbel

On Tue, 26 Mar 2013 12:06:02 +0000, Roger Mills
wrote:

From a safety point of view, you'll need an earth spike which grounds
the frame of the genny, and then connect your extension lead via an RCD.
Since the genny output will be floating, you may need to strap one side
- the side connected to your neutral wire - of this to earth to make
your boiler work. [Others will explain this better, but boilers which
utilise flame ionisation to detect that the pilot is lit before
energising the main gas valve apparently need N to be referenced to E.]

I also found that some motors don't like starting with a floating
supply, oddly enough. They'll have a go, but make very 'cronky' noises
while doing it.

On 25/03/2013 21:18, Tim+ wrote:
...or at least the central heating and fridge running?

Obviously I realise that a "rock bottom bargain basement" generator could
turn out to be a false economy but I also don't want to spend too much on
an insurance product I may never need.

Suggestions?


http://www.mod-sales.com/vehicle/sea...Harrington.htm

or, if that is a bit more than you want to pay

http://www.mod-sales.com/vehicle/sea...Full_Frame.htm

Colin Bignell