I am having a kitchen extended and as it is fairly narrow I was wondering
if I could safe a bit of wall thickness intruding be not having it dry
lined - just skimmed. After all, it will be covered by cupboards and tiles.

On 01/03/13 12:07, DerbyBorn wrote:
I am having a kitchen extended and as it is fairly narrow I was wondering
if I could safe a bit of wall thickness intruding be not having it dry
lined - just skimmed. After all, it will be covered by cupboards and tiles.


Of course.

Unless BCO says it needs more insulation.


--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc-ra-cy) €“ a system of government where the least capable to
lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the
members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are
rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a
diminishing number of producers.

In article 42,
DerbyBorn writes
I am having a kitchen extended and as it is fairly narrow I was wondering
if I could safe a bit of wall thickness intruding be not having it dry
lined - just skimmed. After all, it will be covered by cupboards and tiles.

Could get bldy cold, long and narrow means a lot of wall for not a lot
of area so proportionately heat loss is greater. Could mean a cold
kitchen or condensation in or behind the units.

What is the wall construction, solid or cavity, how thick (for solid)
and insulated cavity or not?

If it's a cavity I'd be happy to try your skim idea with one coat
plaster (no bonding) but if it's solid I'd be inclined to bond some thin
celotex directly to it and then bond a layer of PB to that. Exact method
depending on degree of exposure of outside to driving rain.

Watch out for nasty rules that force you to meet new build insulation
requirements if you 'modify a thermal element' of a building's
construction eg. take down a ceiling or (I think) strip all the plaster
off a wall.
--
fred
it's a ba-na-na . . . .

On Friday 01 March 2013 15:04 fred wrote in uk.d-i-y:

In article 42,
DerbyBorn writes
I am having a kitchen extended and as it is fairly narrow I was wondering
if I could safe a bit of wall thickness intruding be not having it dry
lined - just skimmed. After all, it will be covered by cupboards and
tiles.

Could get bldy cold, long and narrow means a lot of wall for not a lot
of area so proportionately heat loss is greater. Could mean a cold
kitchen or condensation in or behind the units.

What is the wall construction, solid or cavity, how thick (for solid)
and insulated cavity or not?

If it's a cavity I'd be happy to try your skim idea with one coat
plaster (no bonding) but if it's solid I'd be inclined to bond some thin
celotex directly to it and then bond a layer of PB to that. Exact method
depending on degree of exposure of outside to driving rain.

Watch out for nasty rules that force you to meet new build insulation
requirements if you 'modify a thermal element' of a building's
construction eg. take down a ceiling or (I think) strip all the plaster
off a wall.

As I read it, the OP is not creating extra external wall area, he's just
moving a wall sideways - am I right? In which case it won't be much worse,
unless the new wall has worse thermal properties than the current one.

Ideally (and legally) as you say, the new wall should be an insulated - if
space is tight, this could be done without a full brock cavity. I'm thinking
a single skin wall, external insultation and cladding.
--
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http://www.sensorly.com/ Crowd mapping of 2G/3G/4G mobile signal coverage

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On Friday, March 1, 2013 12:07:17 PM UTC, DerbyBorn wrote:

I am having a kitchen extended and as it is fairly narrow I was wondering
if I could safe a bit of wall thickness intruding be not having it dry
lined - just skimmed. After all, it will be covered by cupboards and tiles.

Plaster isnt essential, plenty of outbuildings do without it. Too little info to discuss insulation.


NT

DerbyBorn wrote:
I am having a kitchen extended and as it is fairly narrow I was
wondering if I could safe a bit of wall thickness intruding be not
having it dry lined - just skimmed. After all, it will be covered by
cupboards and tiles.

I wouldn't entertain the idea - you are talking about a few millimetres, and
walls can't be skimmed without a backing coat, usually about half an inch
(12.5mm), you can get 9mm plasterboard dry lining and leave the skimming off
if it's to be tiled

On 02/03/13 16:08, Phil L wrote:
DerbyBorn wrote:
I am having a kitchen extended and as it is fairly narrow I was
wondering if I could safe a bit of wall thickness intruding be not
having it dry lined - just skimmed. After all, it will be covered by
cupboards and tiles.

I wouldn't entertain the idea - you are talking about a few millimetres, and
walls can't be skimmed without a backing coat, usually about half an inch

rubbish.
a couple of mil of bonding and then skim..

(12.5mm), you can get 9mm plasterboard dry lining and leave the skimming off
if it's to be tiled




--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc-ra-cy) €“ a system of government where the least capable to
lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the
members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are
rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a
diminishing number of producers.

On 02/03/2013 16:27, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 02/03/13 16:08, Phil L wrote:
DerbyBorn wrote:
I am having a kitchen extended and as it is fairly narrow I was
wondering if I could safe a bit of wall thickness intruding be not
having it dry lined - just skimmed. After all, it will be covered by
cupboards and tiles.

I wouldn't entertain the idea - you are talking about a few
millimetres, and
walls can't be skimmed without a backing coat, usually about half an inch

rubbish.
a couple of mil of bonding and then skim..


In a kitchen with external walls - I'd take the opportunity to use some
insulation. It'll either haemorrhage heat or drip with condensation when
cooking/cleaning.

Rob

RJH wrote in
:

On 02/03/2013 16:27, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 02/03/13 16:08, Phil L wrote:
DerbyBorn wrote:
I am having a kitchen extended and as it is fairly narrow I was
wondering if I could safe a bit of wall thickness intruding be not
having it dry lined - just skimmed. After all, it will be covered
by cupboards and tiles.

I wouldn't entertain the idea - you are talking about a few
millimetres, and
walls can't be skimmed without a backing coat, usually about half an
inch

rubbish.
a couple of mil of bonding and then skim..


In a kitchen with external walls - I'd take the opportunity to use
some insulation. It'll either haemorrhage heat or drip with
condensation when cooking/cleaning.

Rob


The issue is that a wall that is to be extended will change from single
block where it is currently an internal wall - to becoming a double skin
beyond the existing end of the house. This will give me a step in the wall
in the kitchen that I want to minimise whilst complying with cavity wall
building regs. The BCO is allowing the cavity to be the same as the cavity
i the rest of the house (1988 build).

The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 02/03/13 16:08, Phil L wrote:
DerbyBorn wrote:
I am having a kitchen extended and as it is fairly narrow I was
wondering if I could safe a bit of wall thickness intruding be not
having it dry lined - just skimmed. After all, it will be covered by
cupboards and tiles.

I wouldn't entertain the idea - you are talking about a few
millimetres, and walls can't be skimmed without a backing coat,
usually about half an inch

rubbish.
a couple of mil of bonding and then skim..


OK so 5mm of bonding and 2mm of skimming, or:
3mm of dla and 9.5mm of plasterboard.

like I said, we are talking about saving 5mm of space - not worth a carrot

DerbyBorn wrote:
RJH wrote in
:

On 02/03/2013 16:27, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 02/03/13 16:08, Phil L wrote:
DerbyBorn wrote:
I am having a kitchen extended and as it is fairly narrow I was
wondering if I could safe a bit of wall thickness intruding be not
having it dry lined - just skimmed. After all, it will be covered
by cupboards and tiles.

I wouldn't entertain the idea - you are talking about a few
millimetres, and
walls can't be skimmed without a backing coat, usually about half
an inch

rubbish.
a couple of mil of bonding and then skim..


In a kitchen with external walls - I'd take the opportunity to use
some insulation. It'll either haemorrhage heat or drip with
condensation when cooking/cleaning.

Rob


The issue is that a wall that is to be extended will change from
single block where it is currently an internal wall - to becoming a
double skin beyond the existing end of the house. This will give me a
step in the wall in the kitchen that I want to minimise whilst
complying with cavity wall building regs. The BCO is allowing the
cavity to be the same as the cavity i the rest of the house (1988
build).

The difference will be less than an inch, probably less than half an inch,
not worth bothering about

On Sat, 02 Mar 2013 17:06:36 GMT, DerbyBorn wrote:

The issue is that a wall that is to be extended will change from single
block where it is currently an internal wall - to becoming a double
skin beyond the existing end of the house. This will give me a step in
the wall in the kitchen that I want to minimise

Tell the builders that the finished line of the new wall is to be flush
with the fisnished line of the current wall. Ie they build the new wall
in the right place so this happens...

--
Cheers
Dave.

"Dave Liquorice" wrote in
ll.co.uk:

On Sat, 02 Mar 2013 17:06:36 GMT, DerbyBorn wrote:

The issue is that a wall that is to be extended will change from single
block where it is currently an internal wall - to becoming a double
skin beyond the existing end of the house. This will give me a step in
the wall in the kitchen that I want to minimise

Tell the builders that the finished line of the new wall is to be flush
with the fisnished line of the current wall. Ie they build the new wall
in the right place so this happens...


Can't - a single wall is going to become a cavity wall in the extended
part.

On Tue, 05 Mar 2013 09:05:28 GMT, DerbyBorn wrote:

Tell the builders that the finished line of the new wall is to be
flush with the fisnished line of the current wall. Ie they build the
new wall in the right place so this happens...

Can't - a single wall is going to become a cavity wall in the extended
part.

No such thing as "can't", difficult and/or expensive yes but very rarely
"can't".

If the step is caused by the new leaf being built on the inside, build it
on the outside and make up the finished line inside with an insulated
stud wall. Or demolish existing single leaf wall and rebuild a new cavity
wall in the right place.

--
Cheers
Dave.

On Tuesday, March 5, 2013 9:05:28 AM UTC, DerbyBorn wrote:
"Dave Liquorice" wrote in

ll.co.uk:

Tell the builders that the finished line of the new wall is to be flush
with the fisnished line of the current wall. Ie they build the new wall
in the right place so this happens...


Can't - a single wall is going to become a cavity wall in the extended
part.

If its the similar to mine, the original party wall ran into some outbuildings that were knocked down on my side. Since the other side of the party wall was damp outbuildings I treated it as an external wall, and built an inner leaf on my side.
Thus where the main house party wall went into the extension there was a step - in this case a full 200mm. Quite useful in my case, since it gave me some extra depth to take a large fridge freezer.
Simon.

In article , fred writes
In article 42,
DerbyBorn writes
Snip

if it's solid I'd be inclined to bond some thin
celotex directly to it and then bond a layer of PB to that. Exact method
depending on degree of exposure of outside to driving rain.
That could be a useful idea for me;
what would you use to bond the celotex to the wall? And
what would you use to bond the plasterboard to the celotex?
--
Chris Holford

On 05/03/13 19:32, Chris Holford wrote:
In article , fred writes
In article 42,
DerbyBorn writes
Snip

if it's solid I'd be inclined to bond some thin
celotex directly to it and then bond a layer of PB to that. Exact method
depending on degree of exposure of outside to driving rain.
That could be a useful idea for me;
what would you use to bond the celotex to the wall? And
what would you use to bond the plasterboard to the celotex?

why not buy the two bonded together already?

http://www.kingspaninsulation.co.uk/.../Overview.aspx


--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc-ra-cy) €“ a system of government where the least capable to
lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the
members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are
rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a
diminishing number of producers.

On Tuesday 05 March 2013 19:32 Chris Holford wrote in uk.d-i-y:

In article , fred writes
In article 42,
DerbyBorn writes
Snip

if it's solid I'd be inclined to bond some thin
celotex directly to it and then bond a layer of PB to that. Exact method
depending on degree of exposure of outside to driving rain.
That could be a useful idea for me;
what would you use to bond the celotex to the wall? And
what would you use to bond the plasterboard to the celotex?

http://www.toolstation.com/shop/p60449

--
Tim Watts Personal Blog: http://squiddy.blog.dionic.net/

http://www.sensorly.com/ Crowd mapping of 2G/3G/4G mobile signal coverage

Reading this on the web? See:
http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?title=Usenet

On Mar 5, 8:28*pm, Tim Watts wrote:
On Tuesday 05 March 2013 19:32 Chris Holford wrote in uk.d-i-y:

In article , fred writes
In article 42,
DerbyBorn writes
Snip

if it's solid I'd be inclined to bond some thin
celotex directly to it and then bond a layer of PB to that. Exact method
depending on degree of exposure of outside to driving rain.
*That could be a useful idea for me;
what would you use to bond the celotex to the wall? *And
what would you use to bond the plasterboard to the celotex?

http://www.toolstation.com/shop/p60449

plasterboard adhesive works OK too - dot & dab styley

celotex to pb can be done with this

http://www.toolstation.com/shop/p40004

or just buy it ready made, tho usually uses 12.5mm pb

Jim K

In article , Tim Watts
writes
On Tuesday 05 March 2013 19:32 Chris Holford wrote in uk.d-i-y:

In article , fred writes

if it's solid I'd be inclined to bond some thin
celotex directly to it and then bond a layer of PB to that. Exact method
depending on degree of exposure of outside to driving rain.

That could be a useful idea for me;
what would you use to bond the celotex to the wall? And
what would you use to bond the plasterboard to the celotex?

http://www.toolstation.com/shop/p60449

Yep, ideal for the job, gap filling yet able to squish to nothing where
that is what's required.

To o/p, just make sure wall is dust free and use sparingly so that it
will squish out where required.

You can get ready bonded PB/insulation boards but last time I looked the
range wasn't that great and some just used polystyrene as the insulator
rather than superior PIR foam (celotex et al). Might be worth checking
out current offerings though.
--
fred
it's a ba-na-na . . . .

On Wednesday 06 March 2013 00:39 fred wrote in uk.d-i-y:

In article , Tim Watts
writes
On Tuesday 05 March 2013 19:32 Chris Holford wrote in uk.d-i-y:

In article , fred writes

if it's solid I'd be inclined to bond some thin
celotex directly to it and then bond a layer of PB to that. Exact method
depending on degree of exposure of outside to driving rain.

That could be a useful idea for me;
what would you use to bond the celotex to the wall? And
what would you use to bond the plasterboard to the celotex?

http://www.toolstation.com/shop/p60449

Yep, ideal for the job, gap filling yet able to squish to nothing where
that is what's required.

To o/p, just make sure wall is dust free and use sparingly so that it
will squish out where required.

You can get ready bonded PB/insulation boards but last time I looked the
range wasn't that great and some just used polystyrene as the insulator
rather than superior PIR foam (celotex et al). Might be worth checking
out current offerings though.

I should add, not I have more time, that the foam is not a "grab" adhesive,
so will need supporting for an hour.

But when it sticks, it is not coming off - it really is very very sticky
compared to regular PU foam.
--
Tim Watts Personal Blog: http://squiddy.blog.dionic.net/

http://www.sensorly.com/ Crowd mapping of 2G/3G/4G mobile signal coverage

Reading this on the web? See:
http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?title=Usenet

On Friday, March 1, 2013 3:04:49 PM UTC, fred wrote:


Watch out for nasty rules that force you to meet new build insulation
requirements if you 'modify a thermal element' of a building's
construction eg. take down a ceiling or (I think) strip all the plaster
off a wall.

IIRC: If you renovate more than 25% of the area of the wall you must to redo it to modern specs. This includes taking off the plaster.

Note though that you are allowed to use a less than full compliant insulation if space is limited.

Robert

In article , Tim Watts
writes

I should add, not I have more time, that the foam is not a "grab" adhesive,
so will need supporting for an hour.

Beat me to it :-), I realised this morning that I had omitted to say
that.

But when it sticks, it is not coming off - it really is very very sticky
compared to regular PU foam.

Yes, on fingers too, o/p should wear latex/pvc/vinyl gloves.
--
fred
it's a ba-na-na . . . .

In article ,
RobertL writes
On Friday, March 1, 2013 3:04:49 PM UTC, fred wrote:


Watch out for nasty rules that force you to meet new build insulation
requirements if you 'modify a thermal element' of a building's
construction eg. take down a ceiling or (I think) strip all the plaster
off a wall.

IIRC: If you renovate more than 25% of the area of the wall you must to redo it to
modern specs. This includes taking off the plaster.

Thanks for the confirmation.

Note though that you are allowed to use a less than full compliant insulation if
space is limited.

Memory says a reduction of 10% in area is enough to kick that off but
not sure.
--
fred
it's a ba-na-na . . . .

On Wednesday, March 6, 2013 9:03:31 AM UTC, RobertL wrote:

IIRC: If you renovate more than 25% of the area of the wall
you must to redo it to modern specs. This includes taking off
the plaster.

I had to read that several times to make sense of that last
sentence. To save others, it means "Taking off the plaster counts
as renovating for these purposes." not "Redoing to modern specs
requires taking off the plaster".

Note though that you are allowed to use a less than full
compliant insulation if space is limited.
Or there are other technical reasons why full insulation is not
possible. Such a technical reason could be:
- You can't insulate externally because it is a boundary wall or
you are in a conservation area.
and
- You have a solid brick / stone wall that needs breathable
insulation to prevent problems with interstitial condensation.

On Mar 6, 1:18*pm, Martin Bonner wrote:
On Wednesday, March 6, 2013 9:03:31 AM UTC, RobertL wrote:

IIRC: *If you renovate more than 25% of the area of the wall
you must to redo it to modern specs. *This includes taking off
the plaster.

I had to read that several times to make sense of that last
sentence. *To save others, it means "Taking off the plaster counts
as renovating for these purposes." not "Redoing to modern specs
requires taking off the plaster".

Note though that you are allowed to use a less than full
compliant insulation if space is limited.

Or there are other technical reasons why full insulation is not
possible. *Such a technical reason could be:
- You can't insulate externally because it is a boundary wall or
* you are in a conservation area.
and
- You have a solid brick / stone wall that needs breathable
* insulation to prevent problems with interstitial condensation.

that last one sounds a bit contrary - where's it from?

Jim K