We are converting a couple of flats, and I am having great trouble
persuading the architect not to specify a 30 amp spur for the single
oven. (The hobs will be gas.) We'll obviously choose an oven under 3Kw,
so it can just be plugged into the ring main. Is there anywhere I can
refer the architect to so as to convince him?

In message , GB
writes
We are converting a couple of flats, and I am having great trouble
persuading the architect not to specify a 30 amp spur for the single
oven. (The hobs will be gas.) We'll obviously choose an oven under 3Kw,
so it can just be plugged into the ring main. Is there anywhere I can
refer the architect to so as to convince him?

It would be useful for someone in the future that wanted to cook
electric though.


--
Bill

In article , GB
scribeth thus
We are converting a couple of flats, and I am having great trouble
persuading the architect not to specify a 30 amp spur for the single
oven. (The hobs will be gas.) We'll obviously choose an oven under 3Kw,
so it can just be plugged into the ring main. Is there anywhere I can
refer the architect to so as to convince him?


Tell him I said it can be done as we've had that on a go at a rented
property for sometime with no problems. You could put the oven on a
fused spur off the main I suppose. In fact the makers manual may well
say use a 13 amp socket..

What do Architects know about electric's, I ask you;!...


--
Tony Sayer

On 10/02/2013 22:11, Bill wrote:
In message , GB
writes
We are converting a couple of flats, and I am having great trouble
persuading the architect not to specify a 30 amp spur for the single
oven. (The hobs will be gas.) We'll obviously choose an oven under
3Kw, so it can just be plugged into the ring main. Is there anywhere I
can refer the architect to so as to convince him?

It would be useful for someone in the future that wanted to cook
electric though.


My though straightaway. Induction hobs will likely be the first choice
for many (even if not yours) and having the issue of putting in another
circuit would be a big pain. Surely the cost of the 30A radial (I
assume, rather than spur) will not be that great at this stage?

--
Rod

GB wrote:
We are converting a couple of flats, and I am having great trouble
persuading the architect not to specify a 30 amp spur for the single
oven. (The hobs will be gas.) We'll obviously choose an oven under
3Kw, so it can just be plugged into the ring main. Is there anywhere
I can refer the architect to so as to convince him?

Welcome to the real world. It's not one that an archirect lives in.

I would rather spend a full week at work with an apprentice than spend 2
minutes with an architect.

Architects are worse than paedophilles.

--
Adam

On Feb 10, 10:16*pm, polygonum wrote:
On 10/02/2013 22:11, Bill wrote: In message , GB
writes
We are converting a *couple of flats, and I am having great trouble
persuading the architect not to specify a 30 amp spur for the single
oven. (The hobs will be gas.) We'll obviously choose an oven under
3Kw, so it can just be plugged into the ring main. Is there anywhere I
can refer the architect to so as to convince him?

It would be useful for someone in the future that wanted to cook
electric though.

My though straightaway. Induction hobs will likely be the first choice
for many (even if not yours) and having the issue of putting in another
circuit would be a big pain. Surely the cost of the 30A radial (I
assume, rather than spur) will not be that great at this stage?

--
Rod

+1 - I think your architect is right. The kitchen is a power hungry
area and to add to the load by including the oven is poor design -
legitimate no doubt, but poor design. Ovens from my experience aren't
that secure an electrical environment - that is I've had to undertake
several repairs on ovens, and the last thing you want is a failure
taking out a whole ring main.

Don't be penny pinching and put in a 30A radial.
Rob

robgraham wrote:
On Feb 10, 10:16 pm, polygonum wrote:
On 10/02/2013 22:11, Bill wrote: In message
, GB
writes
We are converting a couple of flats, and I am having great
trouble persuading the architect not to specify a 30 amp spur
for the single oven. (The hobs will be gas.) We'll obviously
choose an oven under 3Kw, so it can just be plugged into the
ring main. Is there anywhere I can refer the architect to so as
to convince him?

It would be useful for someone in the future that wanted to cook
electric though.

My though straightaway. Induction hobs will likely be the first
choice
for many (even if not yours) and having the issue of putting in
another
circuit would be a big pain. Surely the cost of the 30A radial (I
assume, rather than spur) will not be that great at this stage?

--
Rod

+1 - I think your architect is right. The kitchen is a power hungry
area and to add to the load by including the oven is poor design -
legitimate no doubt, but poor design. Ovens from my experience aren't
that secure an electrical environment - that is I've had to undertake
several repairs on ovens, and the last thing you want is a failure
taking out a whole ring main.

Don't be penny pinching and put in a 30A radial.

A double oven usually only need a 16A supply.


--
Adam

On 10/02/2013 22:37, ARW wrote:
robgraham wrote:
On Feb 10, 10:16 pm, polygonum wrote:
On 10/02/2013 22:11, Bill wrote: In message
, GB
writes
We are converting a couple of flats, and I am having great
trouble persuading the architect not to specify a 30 amp spur
for the single oven. (The hobs will be gas.) We'll obviously
choose an oven under 3Kw, so it can just be plugged into the
ring main. Is there anywhere I can refer the architect to so as
to convince him?

It would be useful for someone in the future that wanted to cook
electric though.

My though straightaway. Induction hobs will likely be the first
choice
for many (even if not yours) and having the issue of putting in
another
circuit would be a big pain. Surely the cost of the 30A radial (I
assume, rather than spur) will not be that great at this stage?

--
Rod

+1 - I think your architect is right. The kitchen is a power hungry
area and to add to the load by including the oven is poor design -
legitimate no doubt, but poor design. Ovens from my experience aren't
that secure an electrical environment - that is I've had to undertake
several repairs on ovens, and the last thing you want is a failure
taking out a whole ring main.

Don't be penny pinching and put in a 30A radial.

A double oven usually only need a 16A supply.


I don't think the issue is so much the oven but the flexibility of
putting in an electric hob in future.

--
Rod

polygonum wrote:
On 10/02/2013 22:37, ARW wrote:
robgraham wrote:
On Feb 10, 10:16 pm, polygonum wrote:
On 10/02/2013 22:11, Bill wrote: In message
, GB
writes
We are converting a couple of flats, and I am having great
trouble persuading the architect not to specify a 30 amp
spur for the single oven. (The hobs will be gas.) We'll
obviously choose an oven under 3Kw, so it can just be
plugged into the ring main. Is there anywhere I can refer
the architect to so as to convince him?

It would be useful for someone in the future that wanted to
cook electric though.

My though straightaway. Induction hobs will likely be the first
choice
for many (even if not yours) and having the issue of putting in
another
circuit would be a big pain. Surely the cost of the 30A radial
(I assume, rather than spur) will not be that great at this
stage? --
Rod

+1 - I think your architect is right. The kitchen is a power
hungry area and to add to the load by including the oven is poor
design - legitimate no doubt, but poor design. Ovens from my
experience aren't that secure an electrical environment - that is
I've had to undertake several repairs on ovens, and the last
thing you want is a failure taking out a whole ring main.

Don't be penny pinching and put in a 30A radial.

A double oven usually only need a 16A supply.


I don't think the issue is so much the oven but the flexibility of
putting in an electric hob in future.

I know. At it should be so easy to put the 6mm in now.

--
Adam

In message , ARW
writes
GB wrote:
We are converting a couple of flats, and I am having great trouble
persuading the architect not to specify a 30 amp spur for the single
oven. (The hobs will be gas.) We'll obviously choose an oven under
3Kw, so it can just be plugged into the ring main. Is there anywhere
I can refer the architect to so as to convince him?

Welcome to the real world. It's not one that an archirect lives in.

I would rather spend a full week at work with an apprentice than spend 2
minutes with an architect.

Architects are worse than paedophilles.

I had to install an aerial in London a few years ago on a new office
building to provide coverage of quite a large site. The architect
refused point blank to have it on the outside of the building, it had to
go inside a lift motor room, because it wouldn't look nice. No amount
of explanation of the laws of radio propagation through re-enforced
concrete would get him to change his mind.

No, it didn't work properly, but the architect was happy :-(



--
Bill

On Feb 10, 9:59*pm, GB wrote:
We are converting a *couple of flats, and I am having great trouble
persuading the architect not to specify a 30 amp spur for the single
oven. (The hobs will be gas.) We'll obviously choose an oven under 3Kw,
so it can just be plugged into the ring main. Is there anywhere I can
refer the architect to so as to convince him?

In general, it's not a good idea to have large fixed appliances on the
ring main.
It only takes one or two more and the system is fully loaded.
So really he's right.

On Feb 10, 10:24*pm, "ARW" wrote:
GB wrote:
We are converting a *couple of flats, and I am having great trouble
persuading the architect not to specify a 30 amp spur for the single
oven. (The hobs will be gas.) We'll obviously choose an oven under
3Kw, so it can just be plugged into the ring main. Is there anywhere
I can refer the architect to so as to convince him?

Welcome to the real world. It's not one that an archirect lives in.

I would rather spend a full week at work with an apprentice than spend 2
minutes with an architect.

Architects are worse than paedophilles.

--
Adam

True.
There are a lot of architects getting on the passive house thingy.
When I had a recent open day lots came sniffing round.
They haven't a clue, many of their passive houses use more power than
a normal house.
Their houses always have some weird totem . A strange chimney thing
or weird windows,

Example here.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...st-months.html

Eco-homes need to be designed by an engineer not a ****ing architect.

In article ,
"ARW" writes:
polygonum wrote:
I don't think the issue is so much the oven but the flexibility of
putting in an electric hob in future.

I know. At it should be so easy to put the 6mm in now.

I refitted (including rewiring) my kitchen 11 years ago.
I laid a high current dedicated supply for the cooker, but
for the moment it's still a free standing gas cooker which
requires a supply only for the spark ignition, so the flex
outlet was fitted instead as a 13A socket, with the cooker
plugged in and a 1A fuse in the plug ;-)

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

In article ,
GB wrote:
We are converting a couple of flats, and I am having great trouble
persuading the architect not to specify a 30 amp spur for the single
oven. (The hobs will be gas.) We'll obviously choose an oven under 3Kw,
so it can just be plugged into the ring main. Is there anywhere I can
refer the architect to so as to convince him?

I'd say in this instance he's right. Kitchens can be very power hungry,
and adding an oven to a single final circuit ring might just be too much -
if the kitchen has lots of other appliances.

--
*Why is the man who invests all your money called a broker?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 11/02/2013 09:31, harry wrote:
On Feb 10, 9:59 pm, GB wrote:
We are converting a couple of flats, and I am having great trouble
persuading the architect not to specify a 30 amp spur for the single
oven. (The hobs will be gas.) We'll obviously choose an oven under 3Kw,
so it can just be plugged into the ring main. Is there anywhere I can
refer the architect to so as to convince him?

In general, it's not a good idea to have large fixed appliances on the
ring main.

an oven is not really a "large fixed appliance" in this context. It will
only draw full load for 10 mins or so until up to temperature, and then
cycle on its thermostat.



--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

Andrew Gabriel wrote:
In article ,
"ARW" writes:
polygonum wrote:
I don't think the issue is so much the oven but the flexibility of
putting in an electric hob in future.

I know. At it should be so easy to put the 6mm in now.

I refitted (including rewiring) my kitchen 11 years ago.
I laid a high current dedicated supply for the cooker, but
for the moment it's still a free standing gas cooker which
requires a supply only for the spark ignition, so the flex
outlet was fitted instead as a 13A socket, with the cooker
plugged in and a 1A fuse in the plug ;-)

Is the 1A fuse ASTA certified:-)?

--
Adam

In article ,
"ARW" writes:
Andrew Gabriel wrote:
In article ,
"ARW" writes:
polygonum wrote:
I don't think the issue is so much the oven but the flexibility of
putting in an electric hob in future.

I know. At it should be so easy to put the 6mm in now.

I refitted (including rewiring) my kitchen 11 years ago.
I laid a high current dedicated supply for the cooker, but
for the moment it's still a free standing gas cooker which
requires a supply only for the spark ignition, so the flex
outlet was fitted instead as a 13A socket, with the cooker
plugged in and a 1A fuse in the plug ;-)

Is the 1A fuse ASTA certified:-)?

No, because there aren't any certified 1A ones, and yes I know
it's a PAT test failure. ;-)

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

In article ,
John Rumm writes:
On 11/02/2013 09:31, harry wrote:
On Feb 10, 9:59 pm, GB wrote:
We are converting a couple of flats, and I am having great trouble
persuading the architect not to specify a 30 amp spur for the single
oven. (The hobs will be gas.) We'll obviously choose an oven under 3Kw,
so it can just be plugged into the ring main. Is there anywhere I can
refer the architect to so as to convince him?

In general, it's not a good idea to have large fixed appliances on the
ring main.

an oven is not really a "large fixed appliance" in this context. It will
only draw full load for 10 mins or so until up to temperature, and then
cycle on its thermostat.

Space heaters and water heaters in 20 litre tanks (and instant
showers) are the only things you're likely to find in a house which
are "large [in terms of power] fixed appliance".

Whilst there are plenty of other appliances which can draw 3kW, none
of them have a high duty cycle. If they did, you'd have the problem
of how you got rid of all the heat they generated.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

Andrew Gabriel wrote:
In article ,
"ARW" writes:
Andrew Gabriel wrote:
In article ,
"ARW" writes:
polygonum wrote:
I don't think the issue is so much the oven but the
flexibility of putting in an electric hob in future.

I know. At it should be so easy to put the 6mm in now.

I refitted (including rewiring) my kitchen 11 years ago.
I laid a high current dedicated supply for the cooker, but
for the moment it's still a free standing gas cooker which
requires a supply only for the spark ignition, so the flex
outlet was fitted instead as a 13A socket, with the cooker
plugged in and a 1A fuse in the plug ;-)

Is the 1A fuse ASTA certified:-)?

No, because there aren't any certified 1A ones, and yes I know
it's a PAT test failure. ;-)

Go on then. Why did you fit the 1A fuse? What's wrong with the 3A ones?

--
Adam

On Feb 12, 12:58*am, (Andrew Gabriel)
wrote:
In article ,
* * * * John Rumm writes:

On 11/02/2013 09:31, harry wrote:
On Feb 10, 9:59 pm, GB wrote:
We are converting a *couple of flats, and I am having great trouble
persuading the architect not to specify a 30 amp spur for the single
oven. (The hobs will be gas.) We'll obviously choose an oven under 3Kw,
so it can just be plugged into the ring main. Is there anywhere I can
refer the architect to so as to convince him?

In general, it's not a good idea to have large fixed appliances on the
ring main.

an oven is not really a "large fixed appliance" in this context. It will
only draw full load for 10 mins or so until up to temperature, and then
cycle on its thermostat.

Space heaters and water heaters in 20 litre tanks (and instant
showers) are the only things you're likely to find in a house which
are "large [in terms of power] fixed appliance".

Whilst there are plenty of other appliances which can draw 3kW, none
of them have a high duty cycle. If they did, you'd have the problem
of how you got rid of all the heat they generated.


Nevertheless, if they all happened to come on at once the mcb could
trip.

On 12/02/2013 01:08, ARW wrote:

Go on then. Why did you fit the 1A fuse? What's wrong with the 3A ones?

Or 2A for that matter...

--
Andy

On 12/02/2013 06:48, harry wrote:

[...]
Nevertheless, if they all happened to come on at once the mcb could
trip.

It could, but in practice, in any normal domestic kitchen, it won't.
The current needed for rapid tripping is 1.45*In - ~46 A for a 32 A
device. That's a load of over 11 kVA (assuming 240 actual volts).

--
Andy

Andrew Gabriel wrote:

"ARW" wrote:

Andrew Gabriel wrote:

the flex outlet was fitted instead as a 13A socket, with the
cooker plugged in and a 1A fuse in the plug ;-)

Is the 1A fuse ASTA certified:-)?

No, because there aren't any certified 1A ones

What's the deal with these, then?

http://www.neweysonline.co.uk/newlec-domestic-fuse-plug-top-fuse-1a-240v-ac/1050152901/ProductInformation.raction

Manufacturer spec sheet (updated Nov 2012) also claiming ASTA certified

http://www.cooperindustries.com/content/dam/public/bussmann/Electrical/Resources/Data%20Sheets/Bus_Ele_DS_2042_TDC180.pdf

in article ,
Andy Burns writes:
Andrew Gabriel wrote:

"ARW" wrote:

Andrew Gabriel wrote:

the flex outlet was fitted instead as a 13A socket, with the
cooker plugged in and a 1A fuse in the plug ;-)

Is the 1A fuse ASTA certified:-)?

No, because there aren't any certified 1A ones

What's the deal with these, then?

http://www.neweysonline.co.uk/newlec-domestic-fuse-plug-top-fuse-1a-240v-ac/1050152901/ProductInformation.raction

Manufacturer spec sheet (updated Nov 2012) also claiming ASTA certified

http://www.cooperindustries.com/content/dam/public/bussmann/Electrical/Resources/Data%20Sheets/Bus_Ele_DS_2042_TDC180.pdf

I have those exact Bussmann fuses, in every value on that datasheet.
The 1A ones are not ASTA certified (all the others are).
They never are from any other manufacturer either (although I don't
currently have any from any other manufacturer).

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

On 12/02/2013 23:59, Andrew Gabriel wrote:

The 1A ones are not ASTA certified (all the others are).

That certainly used to be the case - they contained no sand - but it
does look as if they are approved now.

They never are from any other manufacturer either (although I don't
currently have any from any other manufacturer).

I'm not sure there is any other UK OEM of BS 162 fuses left now. There
might be one or two Far-Eastern sources with genuine certification.
(And at least one importer of non-compliant product with fake
certification.)

CE mark? - certainly sir, it stands for /caveat emptor/.

--
Andy

On 13/02/2013 23:47, I wrote:

[...] other UK OEM of BS 162 fuses left now.

Oops, where did that 3 go?

--
Andy

Andy Wade wrote:
On 13/02/2013 23:47, I wrote:

[...] other UK OEM of BS 162 fuses left now.

Oops, where did that 3 go?

Mobile phone company used it.

--
Adam

On 13/02/2013 23:54, Andy Wade wrote:
On 13/02/2013 23:47, I wrote:

[...] other UK OEM of BS 162 fuses left now.

Oops, where did that 3 go?

Probably the red printing - makes it harder to read ;-)


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/