Hi All,

Mums old ex gravity (now fully pumped) indirect CH system has been
drained and re-filled (hopefully) for the last time for a while and I
am concerned about making sure it doesn't freeze up if she's away or a
few days etc?

The rads are smallish and cast iron and the boiler a low capacity
copper HE.

There is no frost setting on the boiler nor room stats etc. It's a
very basic system but it works for Mum and she's happy with it for
now. ;-)

So, I'm not sure if I should run some de-scaler though it (we
de-scaled the HE on it's own a while back) first or because of the
diameter of all the pipes (1-1/2" down to 22mm) that it's not worth
it?

So, alongside that, is there any good VFM 'stuff' to cover both the
cleaning and the inhibiting / antifreeze anyone would recommend
please?

Cheers, T i m

p.s. For pipes from the water tank in the loft ... would plastic be
better than copper re frost resistance?

On Nov 14, 2:13*pm, T i m wrote:
Hi All,

Mums old ex gravity (now fully pumped) indirect CH system has been
drained and re-filled (hopefully) for the last time for a while and I
am concerned about making sure it doesn't freeze up if she's away or a
few days etc?

The rads are smallish and cast iron and the boiler a low capacity
copper HE.

There is no frost setting on the boiler nor room stats etc. It's a
very basic system but it works for Mum and she's happy with it for
now. ;-)

So, I'm not sure if I should run some de-scaler though it (we
de-scaled the HE on it's own a while back) first or because of the
diameter of all the pipes (1-1/2" down to 22mm) that it's not worth
it?

So, alongside that, is there any good VFM 'stuff' to cover both the
cleaning and the inhibiting / antifreeze anyone would recommend
please?

Cheers, T i m

p.s. For pipes from the water tank in the loft ... would plastic be
better than copper re frost resistance?

You can buy stuff from "Fernox" does the job.
In days of yore it was unnecessary, it only became necessary when
balanced draught/room sealed boiler came into use. ie the heat
exchanger is exposed to frost.

Pipework should be insulated, this guards against frost as well as
heat loss.

On Nov 14, 2:13*pm, T i m wrote:
Hi All,

Mums old ex gravity (now fully pumped) indirect CH system has been
drained and re-filled (hopefully) for the last time for a while and I
am concerned about making sure it doesn't freeze up if she's away or a
few days etc?

The rads are smallish and cast iron and the boiler a low capacity
copper HE.

There is no frost setting on the boiler nor room stats etc. It's a
very basic system but it works for Mum and she's happy with it for
now. ;-)

So, I'm not sure if I should run some de-scaler though it (we
de-scaled the HE on it's own a while back) first or because of the
diameter of all the pipes (1-1/2" down to 22mm) that it's not worth
it?

So, alongside that, is there any good VFM 'stuff' to cover both the
cleaning and the inhibiting / antifreeze anyone would recommend
please?

Cheers, T i m

p.s. For pipes from the water tank in the loft ... would plastic be
better than copper re frost resistance?

BTW if the pipework in the loft does freeze, the cast iron radiators
could crack on firing up if no safety valve is fitted to the system.

On Wed, 14 Nov 2012 07:46:44 -0800, harry wrote:


So, alongside that, is there any good VFM 'stuff' to cover both the
cleaning and the inhibiting / antifreeze anyone would recommend please?



p.s. For pipes from the water tank in the loft ... would plastic be
better than copper re frost resistance?

You can buy stuff from "Fernox" does the job.

Yes, I know but I believe it's not necessarily the best VFM on the market?

In days of yore it was unnecessary, it only became necessary when
balanced draught/room sealed boiler came into use. ie the heat exchanger
is exposed to frost.

Ah, good point.

Pipework should be insulated, this guards against frost as well as heat
loss.

'Guards against' rather than 'guarantees against' I notice. ;-)

I've had a bib tap pushed off a standpipe in the kitchen I was doing up
and that was indoors (luckily the water was still frozen when I got to
it!) so I'm very aware of what can happen to even insulated pipes if the
going gets tough enough.

I was also thinking on the idea that hot water freezes quicker than cold
water (it does doesn't it) so if she turns the CH off for a long period
(even for a weekend say) and it all gets very cold in the loft /
boiler ...

Cheers, T i m

On 14 Nov, 16:01, T i m wrote:
On Wed, 14 Nov 2012 07:46:44 -0800, harry wrote:
So, alongside that, is there any good VFM 'stuff' to cover both the
cleaning and the inhibiting / antifreeze anyone would recommend please?

Turn the thermostat down to about 5 degrees and leave the system on
timed. Works for us.

Chris

On Wed, 14 Nov 2012 08:41:58 -0800 (PST), Chris Holmes wrote:

Turn the thermostat down to about 5 degrees and leave the system on
timed. Works for us.

What don't you understand about "There is no frost setting on the boiler
nor room stats etc."?

Think I'd fit a frost stat some where and let the boiler fire up if it
needs to.

--
Cheers
Dave.

On Wed, 14 Nov 2012 08:41:58 -0800, Chris Holmes wrote:

On 14 Nov, 16:01, T i m wrote:
On Wed, 14 Nov 2012 07:46:44 -0800, harry wrote:
So, alongside that, is there any good VFM 'stuff' to cover both the
cleaning and the inhibiting / antifreeze anyone would recommend
please?

Turn the thermostat down to about 5 degrees and leave the system on
timed. Works for us.

The only 'stat' is the boiler stat itself and she's normally only got
that on No 1 or 2 (out of 10)?

I think the (plug_in) timer is set to enable the boiler twice a day for
about an hour at a time.

She basically 'lives' in the lounge and that has a pretty powerful gas
fire and puts her electric blanket on before she goes to bed. ;-)

Cheers, T i m

On Wed, 14 Nov 2012 18:00:17 +0000, Dave Liquorice wrote:


Think I'd fit a frost stat some where and let the boiler fire up if it
needs to.

Now *that's* a good idea. ;-)

So, given this system has only a plug in 24hr timeswitch and the
boilerstat, I'm guessing the frost stat would have to be wired in
parallel with the timeswitch?

Cheers, T i m

On Wed, 14 Nov 2012 07:49:17 -0800 (PST), harry
wrote:


p.s. For pipes from the water tank in the loft ... would plastic be
better than copper re frost resistance?

BTW if the pipework in the loft does freeze, the cast iron radiators
could crack on firing up if no safety valve is fitted to the system.

There is a safety valve, just on the flow over the boiler.

I was wondering if it would be ok to use std car antifreeze on the CH
system? I mean, it's designed for cast iron (cylinder blocks) and
copper (old rads?), to stop water freezing when it gets below 0 degC
(or worse) out there and designed to run at over boiling point
(pressurised system but this is open so runs much colder than a car)?

Or would the CH stuff be better / cheaper?

Cheers, T i m

On Nov 14, 6:29*pm, T i m wrote:
On Wed, 14 Nov 2012 08:41:58 -0800, Chris Holmes wrote:
On 14 Nov, 16:01, T i m wrote:
On Wed, 14 Nov 2012 07:46:44 -0800, harry wrote:
So, alongside that, is there any good VFM 'stuff' to cover both the
cleaning and the inhibiting / antifreeze anyone would recommend
please?

Turn the thermostat down to about 5 degrees and leave the system on
timed. *Works for us.

The only 'stat' is the boiler stat itself and she's normally only got
that on No 1 or 2 (out of 10)?

I think the (plug_in) timer is set to enable the boiler twice a day for
about an hour at a time.

She basically 'lives' in the lounge and that has a pretty powerful gas
fire and puts her electric blanket on before she goes to bed. ;-)

Cheers, T i m

I think you need a serious upgrade of the system. It must be costing a
fortune to run.
The froststat would indeed need to be wired in parallel with the time
switch.
The problem is, where to locate the stat itself.
If she has a gas fire, get a carbon monoxide alarm for her.


BTW, water that has been heated (so driving out dissolved gases)
freezes at a higher temperature than water that has not is more
accurate.

On Nov 15, 12:27*am, T i m wrote:
On Wed, 14 Nov 2012 07:49:17 -0800 (PST), harry

wrote:
p.s. For pipes from the water tank in the loft ... would plastic be
better than copper re frost resistance?

BTW if the pipework in the loft does freeze, the cast iron radiators
could crack on firing up if no safety valve is fitted to the system.

There is a safety valve, just on the flow over the boiler.

I was wondering if it would be ok to use std car antifreeze on the CH
system? I mean, it's designed for cast iron (cylinder blocks) and
copper (old rads?), *to stop water freezing when it gets below 0 degC
(or worse) out there and designed to run at over boiling point
(pressurised system but this is open so runs much colder than a car)?

Or would the CH stuff be better / cheaper?

Cheers, T i m

Well it's not recommended. I have done it in my solar panels. It seems
to be OK, been running for three years.
I think there is an alleged problem if there is any possibility of it
getting into the domestic hot water. (It is poisonous). But then I
don't drink that water even if it did.
(Heat exchanger in hot water cylinder leaks?)

On Wed, 14 Nov 2012 12:57:22 -0600, T i m wrote:

Think I'd fit a frost stat some where and let the boiler fire up if it
needs to.

Now *that's* a good idea. ;-)

So, given this system has only a plug in 24hr timeswitch and the
boilerstat,

"Plugin" as in 13A type plugin or plugin as a module that plugs into the
boiler?

I'm guessing the frost stat would have to be wired in parallel with the
timeswitch?

Yes, a frost stat needs a permenant live so that it can fire the boiler
without the time switch being on. Be careful to ensure that this
permenant live is taken *after* the boiler/heating system isolation
device.

Depending on your boiler it might be a simple addition back to the wiring
block in the boiler. Plumbers aren't the brightest sparks in the box, so
makers attempt to keep the wiring requirements simple.

--
Cheers
Dave.

On Thu, 15 Nov 2012 09:29:59 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Liquorice"
wrote:

On Wed, 14 Nov 2012 12:57:22 -0600, T i m wrote:

Think I'd fit a frost stat some where and let the boiler fire up if it
needs to.

Now *that's* a good idea. ;-)

So, given this system has only a plug in 24hr timeswitch and the
boilerstat,

"Plugin" as in 13A type plugin or plugin as a module that plugs into the
boiler?

The former. Like I said, this is a very simple system that was
'upgraded' from a full gravity coal-fired jobby some years ago. Mains
socket in the airing cupboard, plug in time switch, 13A plug top with
cable going down to boiler below. No, sorry, double adaptor in time
switch, one cable going to boiler, other to the pump right beside the
time switch.

As crude and basic as all that sounds, it's worked faultlessly [1] for
a very long time and the fact that stuff is just plugged in means you
can very easily faultfinding, *fully* isolate and run things
independently without fear of the wrong things cutting in (like
running the pump without the boiler to help clear a freshly filled
system of air).

I'm guessing the frost stat would have to be wired in parallel with the
timeswitch?

Yes, a frost stat needs a permenant live so that it can fire the boiler
without the time switch being on. Be careful to ensure that this
permenant live is taken *after* the boiler/heating system isolation
device.

Understood (so that's the main 13A plug them). ;-)

Depending on your boiler it might be a simple addition back to the wiring
block in the boiler. Plumbers aren't the brightest sparks in the box, so
makers attempt to keep the wiring requirements simple.

Understood. ;-)

However, as you can probably see from the setup I've described above,
it wouldn't be so easy to do there.

Do I take it these frost stats are normally located in the boiler
itself because of the possibility of the 'exposed to the outside air'
HE becoming frozen (as Harry mentioned)?

Cheers, T i m

p.s. Again, these system has survived probably in excess of 30 years
*without* a frost stat so maybe it's just a matter of getting some
decent antifreeze / inhibitor again. The stuff we drained out had been
there for many many years and was blue like car antifreeze?

On Thu, 15 Nov 2012 00:01:12 -0800 (PST), harry
wrote:

On Nov 14, 6:29*pm, T i m wrote:
On Wed, 14 Nov 2012 08:41:58 -0800, Chris Holmes wrote:
On 14 Nov, 16:01, T i m wrote:
On Wed, 14 Nov 2012 07:46:44 -0800, harry wrote:
So, alongside that, is there any good VFM 'stuff' to cover both the
cleaning and the inhibiting / antifreeze anyone would recommend
please?

Turn the thermostat down to about 5 degrees and leave the system on
timed. *Works for us.

The only 'stat' is the boiler stat itself and she's normally only got
that on No 1 or 2 (out of 10)?

I think the (plug_in) timer is set to enable the boiler twice a day for
about an hour at a time.

She basically 'lives' in the lounge and that has a pretty powerful gas
fire and puts her electric blanket on before she goes to bed. ;-)

Cheers, T i m

I think you need a serious upgrade of the system. It must be costing a
fortune to run.

I think you have to factor all things in when you consider such things
though. Like, the boiler cost her little (second hand) many many years
ago and has cost next to nothing to maintain for all that time?

The (semi detached) house is made with solid brick walls so heating
the house fully would be expensive.

She isn't there all the time (she often stays with my sister and goes
away on trips etc).

She is 'old skool' and knows to put a jumper on and has never
complained about anything like being cold.

FWIW, we are in a similar position here with a 3 bed Victorian EOT
(solid 9" brick wall) cottage with no central heating and just a mix
of E7 slimline / automatic storage rads, open and balanced flue gas
heaters. A fan / radiant heater can be put to use if required but we
don't have any heat on in this lounge now and the Mrs and I are
sitting here in basically our PJ's (late night last night g) and no
one has mentioned the cold. ;-)

We haven't turned the storage rads on in the bedroom 'yet' this year
and have had no other form of heating up there either. However, we are
fully double glazed and have reasonable insulation in the loft (at
least).

I am very very happy not to have any water in the house at a higher
level than our Multipoint water heater. ;-)

The froststat would indeed need to be wired in parallel with the time
switch.
The problem is, where to locate the stat itself.

Understood. I'm guessing if it were in the kitchen, near the boiler
and even set to say 5DegC or some such, that might be better than
nothing?

If she has a gas fire, get a carbon monoxide alarm for her.

She has and good point. (We have one here as we have an open gas
fire).


BTW, water that has been heated (so driving out dissolved gases)
freezes at a higher temperature than water that has not is more
accurate.


Ah, thanks for the clarification. ;-)

Cheers, T i m

On Thu, 15 Nov 2012 00:06:55 -0800, harry wrote:


I was wondering if it would be ok to use std car antifreeze on the CH
system? I mean, it's designed for cast iron (cylinder blocks) and
copper (old rads?), Â*to stop water freezing when it gets below 0 degC
(or worse) out there and designed to run at over boiling point
(pressurised system but this is open so runs much colder than a car)?


Well it's not recommended. I have done it in my solar panels. It seems
to be OK, been running for three years.

Ok.

I think there is an alleged problem if there is any possibility of it
getting into the domestic hot water. (It is poisonous). But then I don't
drink that water even if it did.
(Heat exchanger in hot water cylinder leaks?)

Understood. So are you saying that the stuff specifically designed for CH
use isn't poisonous?



Cheers, T i m

On Nov 15, 10:43*pm, T i m wrote:
On Thu, 15 Nov 2012 00:06:55 -0800, harry wrote:
I was wondering if it would be ok to use std car antifreeze on the CH
system? I mean, it's designed for cast iron (cylinder blocks) and
copper (old rads?), *to stop water freezing when it gets below 0 degC
(or worse) out there and designed to run at over boiling point
(pressurised system but this is open so runs much colder than a car)?

Well it's not recommended. I have done it in my solar panels. It seems
to be OK, been running for three years.

Ok.

I think there is an alleged problem if there is any possibility of it
getting into the domestic hot water. (It is poisonous). But then I don't
drink that water even if it did.
(Heat exchanger in hot water cylinder leaks?)

Understood. So are you saying that the stuff specifically designed for CH
use isn't poisonous?

Cheers, T i m

Apparently not AS poisonous. It comes under "urban legend" really.

On Thu, 15 Nov 2012 23:38:54 -0800 (PST), harry
wrote:

On Nov 15, 10:43*pm, T i m wrote:
On Thu, 15 Nov 2012 00:06:55 -0800, harry wrote:
I was wondering if it would be ok to use std car antifreeze on the CH
system? I mean, it's designed for cast iron (cylinder blocks) and
copper (old rads?), *to stop water freezing when it gets below 0 degC
(or worse) out there and designed to run at over boiling point
(pressurised system but this is open so runs much colder than a car)?

Well it's not recommended. I have done it in my solar panels. It seems
to be OK, been running for three years.

Ok.

I think there is an alleged problem if there is any possibility of it
getting into the domestic hot water. (It is poisonous). But then I don't
drink that water even if it did.
(Heat exchanger in hot water cylinder leaks?)

Understood. So are you saying that the stuff specifically designed for CH
use isn't poisonous?

Cheers, T i m

Apparently not AS poisonous. It comes under "urban legend" really.


Ok and thanks.

So, any thoughts re a value for money antifreeze / inhibitor please? I
know of brands like Fernox (Alphi-11?) and Sentinel (X500?) but
wondered if the sheds might have their own brands that could be as
good for less?

Or if there was a brew-your-own cheaper like when you use vinegar or
lemon juice for cleaning purposes?

And what about the risks to pipes and joints in hi-risk freezing areas
like the supplies to / from the tanks in the loft?

Are soldered joints more resistant to being 'pushed open' than
compression ... does plastic / 'Speedfit' resist damage (because it
can 'give'?) better than copper?

Cheers, T i m

On Fri, 16 Nov 2012 10:45:22 +0000, T i m wrote:

Or if there was a brew-your-own cheaper like when you use vinegar or
lemon juice for cleaning purposes?

Propylene glycol - dead cheap by the gallon.

On Fri, 16 Nov 2012 22:16:58 +0000, Grimly Curmudgeon
wrote:

On Fri, 16 Nov 2012 10:45:22 +0000, T i m wrote:

Or if there was a brew-your-own cheaper like when you use vinegar or
lemon juice for cleaning purposes?

Propylene glycol - dead cheap by the gallon.

Something like this you mean?

http://www.farmacy.co.uk/products/44...lene-glycol-5l
http://mistralni.co.uk/products/inhi...opylene-glycol

Or are there other uses where it's sold cheaper?

Cheers, T i m

On Sat, 17 Nov 2012 00:18:58 +0000, T i m wrote:

Propylene glycol - dead cheap by the gallon.

Something like this you mean?

http://www.farmacy.co.uk/products/44...lene-glycol-5l
http://mistralni.co.uk/products/inhi...opylene-glycol

Or are there other uses where it's sold cheaper?

I'm sure I've seen non-food grade sell for a tenner a gallon recently.
I don't recall where, though; as I was looking for the food-grade.

On Nov 16, 10:45*am, T i m wrote:
On Thu, 15 Nov 2012 23:38:54 -0800 (PST), harry









wrote:
On Nov 15, 10:43*pm, T i m wrote:
On Thu, 15 Nov 2012 00:06:55 -0800, harry wrote:
I was wondering if it would be ok to use std car antifreeze on the CH
system? I mean, it's designed for cast iron (cylinder blocks) and
copper (old rads?), *to stop water freezing when it gets below 0 degC
(or worse) out there and designed to run at over boiling point
(pressurised system but this is open so runs much colder than a car)?

Well it's not recommended. I have done it in my solar panels. It seems
to be OK, been running for three years.

Ok.

I think there is an alleged problem if there is any possibility of it
getting into the domestic hot water. (It is poisonous). But then I don't
drink that water even if it did.
(Heat exchanger in hot water cylinder leaks?)

Understood. So are you saying that the stuff specifically designed for CH
use isn't poisonous?

Cheers, T i m

Apparently not AS poisonous. *It comes under "urban legend" really.

Ok and thanks.

So, any thoughts re a value for money antifreeze / inhibitor please? I
know of brands like Fernox (Alphi-11?) and Sentinel (X500?) but
wondered if the sheds might have their own brands that could be as
good for less?

Or if there was a brew-your-own cheaper like when you use vinegar or
lemon juice for cleaning purposes?

And what about the risks to pipes and joints in hi-risk freezing areas
like the supplies to / from the tanks in the loft?

Are soldered joints more resistant to being 'pushed open' than
compression ... does plastic / 'Speedfit' resist damage (because it
can 'give'?) better than copper?

Cheers, T i m

None of the joints "push open".
The pipe splits.

PVC pipe goes brittle and splits in frosty conditions.
ABS pie doesn't get damaged when frozen.

Dunno about the flexible stuff.

On Sat, 17 Nov 2012 00:51:46 -0800 (PST), harry
wrote:


Are soldered joints more resistant to being 'pushed open' than
compression ... does plastic / 'Speedfit' resist damage (because it
can 'give'?) better than copper?


None of the joints "push open".

Apart from the compression fitting tap I found on the floor one time,
pushed off by the ice that was still sticking out of the 15mm stand
pipe? ;-(

The pipe splits.

Ok.

PVC pipe goes brittle and splits in frosty conditions.

Ok.

ABS pie doesn't get damaged when frozen.

Not seen that type mentioned. What is the std 'Speedfit' or 'Hep2O'
stuff made of?

Quick Google to Speedfits info

"Speedfit ‘PEM’ fittings and PEX and Polybutylene Barrier Pipe .."

Not sure that helps me though.

Dunno about the flexible stuff.

Ok, no, matter. I was just wondering ...

Cheers, T i m

On Nov 17, 11:05*am, T i m wrote:
On Sat, 17 Nov 2012 00:51:46 -0800 (PST), harry

wrote:
Are soldered joints more resistant to being 'pushed open' than
compression ... does plastic / 'Speedfit' resist damage (because it
can 'give'?) better than copper?

None of the joints "push open".

Apart from the compression fitting tap I found on the floor one time,
pushed off by the ice that was still sticking out of the 15mm stand
pipe? ;-(

The pipe splits.

Ok.



PVC pipe goes brittle and splits in frosty conditions.

Ok.

ABS pie doesn't get damaged when frozen.

Not seen that type mentioned. What is the std 'Speedfit' or 'Hep2O'
stuff made of?

Quick Google to Speedfits info

"Speedfit ‘PEM’ fittings and PEX and Polybutylene Barrier Pipe .."

Not sure that helps me though.



Dunno about the flexible stuff.

Ok, no, matter. I was just wondering ...

Cheers, T i m

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acrylon...adiene_styrene