It's a roof - no I can't DIY that, though I will be DIYing the guttering and
soffits.

Roofers due to start a retile on Monday. just had a call - sorry mate: staff
all walked, don't have any one left.

*sigh*.

Pretty much follows the maxim get a list of 10 people, 4 answer the phone, 2
quote, one quote is not silly and they can start in 3 weeks. Then they
can't...

SWMBO totally understands why I'd rather take years to do it myself than
rely on these disorganised eejits...

Sadly, a reroof is just not an option, even on a bungalow. Particularly not
with our unpredictable weather.

--
Tim Watts

On 21/09/2012 10:14, Tim Watts wrote:
It's a roof - no I can't DIY that, though I will be DIYing the guttering and
soffits.

Roofers due to start a retile on Monday. just had a call - sorry mate: staff
all walked, don't have any one left.

*sigh*.

Pretty much follows the maxim get a list of 10 people, 4 answer the phone, 2
quote, one quote is not silly and they can start in 3 weeks. Then they
can't...

SWMBO totally understands why I'd rather take years to do it myself than
rely on these disorganised eejits...

Sadly, a reroof is just not an option, even on a bungalow. Particularly not
with our unpredictable weather.

Get it scaffolded & covered, then DIY at your leisure.

In article ,
Tim Watts wrote:
It's a roof - no I can't DIY that, though I will be DIYing the guttering
and soffits.

Roofers due to start a retile on Monday. just had a call - sorry mate:
staff all walked, don't have any one left.

*sigh*.

Probably a good thing, if true. A firm which has a high 'staff' turnover
is unlikely to have decent tradesmen.

Really, there's so little equipment etc needed for roofing that most of
the best roofers will have their own firm. But of course finding one of
those may not be easy as they have no need to waste money on advertising.

Do you know a local architect etc who specialises in extensions or
whatever? He likely would keep a list of good tradesmen.
,

--
*My designated driver drove me to drink

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 21/09/2012 10:14, Tim Watts wrote:
It's a roof - no I can't DIY that, though I will be DIYing the guttering and
soffits.

Roofers due to start a retile on Monday. just had a call - sorry mate: staff
all walked, don't have any one left.

*sigh*.

Pretty much follows the maxim get a list of 10 people, 4 answer the phone, 2
quote, one quote is not silly and they can start in 3 weeks. Then they
can't...

SWMBO totally understands why I'd rather take years to do it myself than
rely on these disorganised eejits...

Sadly, a reroof is just not an option, even on a bungalow. Particularly not
with our unpredictable weather.

I recently had my roof redone, a very quick and efficient job they made?
Where do you live? I reside in North Staffordshire, all roofers
approached efficiently supplied quotes and the selected company came as
promised and did a good job. Did you apply to builders rather than roofers?

Phil wrote:

On 21/09/2012 10:14, Tim Watts wrote:
It's a roof - no I can't DIY that, though I will be DIYing the guttering
and soffits.

Roofers due to start a retile on Monday. just had a call - sorry mate:
staff all walked, don't have any one left.

*sigh*.

Pretty much follows the maxim get a list of 10 people, 4 answer the
phone, 2 quote, one quote is not silly and they can start in 3 weeks.
Then they can't...

SWMBO totally understands why I'd rather take years to do it myself than
rely on these disorganised eejits...

Sadly, a reroof is just not an option, even on a bungalow. Particularly
not with our unpredictable weather.

Get it scaffolded & covered, then DIY at your leisure.

Could get chilly - besides, I'm really not up to this level of work with a
day job sadly - it would take me 6 months...

Also I do not know how to do flashing nicely or how hip/ridge tiles "work".
Definately happy to concede ignorance on this job - I'm happy I can do
plumbing and electrics and tiling


--
Tim Watts

Broadback wrote:

On 21/09/2012 10:14, Tim Watts wrote:
It's a roof - no I can't DIY that, though I will be DIYing the guttering
and soffits.

Roofers due to start a retile on Monday. just had a call - sorry mate:
staff all walked, don't have any one left.

*sigh*.

Pretty much follows the maxim get a list of 10 people, 4 answer the
phone, 2 quote, one quote is not silly and they can start in 3 weeks.
Then they can't...

SWMBO totally understands why I'd rather take years to do it myself than
rely on these disorganised eejits...

Sadly, a reroof is just not an option, even on a bungalow. Particularly
not with our unpredictable weather.

I recently had my roof redone, a very quick and efficient job they made?
Where do you live? I reside in North Staffordshire, all roofers
approached efficiently supplied quotes and the selected company came as
promised and did a good job. Did you apply to builders rather than
roofers?

East Sussex -
--
Tim Watts

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

In article ,
Tim Watts wrote:
It's a roof - no I can't DIY that, though I will be DIYing the guttering
and soffits.

Roofers due to start a retile on Monday. just had a call - sorry mate:
staff all walked, don't have any one left.

*sigh*.

Probably a good thing, if true. A firm which has a high 'staff' turnover
is unlikely to have decent tradesmen.

Yep. I did wonder when he said scaffolding was not necessary and towers
would be OK. Not that I'm disputing that you *need* scaffolding for a single
storey bungalow - but everyone usually does and perhaps the bloke was cheap
and ****ed off his men? Not that scaffolding is a massive expense.

Really, there's so little equipment etc needed for roofing that most of
the best roofers will have their own firm. But of course finding one of
those may not be easy as they have no need to waste money on advertising.

I tried teh word of mouth - that was even more disasterous. Not one of the
buggers could be arsed to quote.

Do you know a local architect etc who specialises in extensions or
whatever? He likely would keep a list of good tradesmen.
,


I don't, but it's a good idea - I could chance a phonecall to someone out of
the phonebook...

Cheers for that.

So far, I have picked someone off "Checkatrade" website and SWMBO has found
someone on the Roofing Federation scheme's site.


--
Tim Watts

In article ,
Tim Watts wrote:
Do you know a local architect etc who specialises in extensions or
whatever? He likely would keep a list of good tradesmen.
,


I don't, but it's a good idea - I could chance a phonecall to someone
out of the phonebook...

That might be one step better than doing the same as for roofers - but I
hoped you might know of an architect etc with a good reputation. Or a
structural engineer.

--
*Hard work pays off in the future. Laziness pays off now *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

In article ,
Tim Watts wrote:
Do you know a local architect etc who specialises in extensions or
whatever? He likely would keep a list of good tradesmen.
,


I don't, but it's a good idea - I could chance a phonecall to someone
out of the phonebook...

That might be one step better than doing the same as for roofers - but I
hoped you might know of an architect etc with a good reputation. Or a
structural engineer.


No - I've never had cause to use either and I couldn't afford any job that
would need them either ;-

--
Tim Watts

On 21/09/2012 14:31, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Tim Watts wrote:
Do you know a local architect etc who specialises in extensions or
whatever? He likely would keep a list of good tradesmen.
,


I don't, but it's a good idea - I could chance a phonecall to someone
out of the phonebook...

That might be one step better than doing the same as for roofers - but I
hoped you might know of an architect etc with a good reputation. Or a
structural engineer.


Blimey, you shouldn't need an engineer or an architect to find a roofer.

Like a lot of trades, they stop answering the phone when they're busy
because they wouldn't be able give a starting date. When they're not
busy they tend to advertise in the local paper. Short sighted I know,
but that's how they are IME.

I was on the lookout for a few weeks before a suitable ad turned up in
the paper.

On 21/09/2012 10:24, Phil wrote:
On 21/09/2012 10:14, Tim Watts wrote:
It's a roof - no I can't DIY that, though I will be DIYing the
guttering and
soffits.

Roofers due to start a retile on Monday. just had a call - sorry mate:
staff
all walked, don't have any one left.

*sigh*.

Pretty much follows the maxim get a list of 10 people, 4 answer the
phone, 2
quote, one quote is not silly and they can start in 3 weeks. Then they
can't...

SWMBO totally understands why I'd rather take years to do it myself than
rely on these disorganised eejits...

Sadly, a reroof is just not an option, even on a bungalow.
Particularly not
with our unpredictable weather.

Get it scaffolded & covered, then DIY at your leisure.

Having had the roof off a place in the past, that is definitely the way
I would do it if there is a next time. However I don't think I would
fancy it heading into winter. Not so bad if you can throw people at the
job to get it done fast, but not so good on your lonesome.

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

In article ,
stuart noble wrote:
Do you know a local architect etc who specialises in extensions or
whatever? He likely would keep a list of good tradesmen.
,


I don't, but it's a good idea - I could chance a phonecall to someone
out of the phonebook...

That might be one step better than doing the same as for roofers - but I
hoped you might know of an architect etc with a good reputation. Or a
structural engineer.


Blimey, you shouldn't need an engineer or an architect to find a roofer.

I merely said that a pro using them a lot might know the better ones and
be willing to pass on that info.

That's how I got my roofer - from an architect acquaintance. And one look
at it compared to others in the street that have also been replaced shows
I was lucky in that choice. The workmanship is superb.

--
*Happiness is seeing your mother-in-law on a milk carton

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Tim Watts" wrote in message
...
It's a roof - no I can't DIY that, though I will be DIYing the guttering
and
soffits.

Have you tried RE Burt roofing, Battle. 20 or more years since i last had
dealings with them, but they were very good.



-

On Sep 21, 10:17*am, Tim Watts wrote:
It's a roof - no I can't DIY that, though I will be DIYing the guttering and
soffits.

Roofers due to start a retile on Monday. just had a call - sorry mate: staff
all walked, don't have any one left.

*sigh*.

Pretty much follows the maxim get a list of 10 people, 4 answer the phone, 2
quote, one quote is not silly and they can start in 3 weeks. Then they
can't...

SWMBO totally understands why I'd rather take years to do it myself than
rely on these disorganised eejits...

Sadly, a reroof is just not an option, even on a bungalow. Particularly not
with our unpredictable weather.

--
Tim Watts

Roofing is not a big deal. You can easily DIY. Just look at how it's
been done as you take it off & put it back the same. Plus undertile
felt.
Once the felt is on, it is weather tight.
Bad time of year for this job, wind, rain etc, Whoever is doing it..

Mark wrote:


"Tim Watts" wrote in message
...
It's a roof - no I can't DIY that, though I will be DIYing the guttering
and
soffits.

Have you tried RE Burt roofing, Battle. 20 or more years since i last had
dealings with them, but they were very good.


This guy?

R A Burt Roofing - Roofing Contracting Services in Battle TN33 0EW
Address:
14 Knights Meadow
Battle
East Sussex
TN33 0EW

Thanks - I'll try him, if it's not him maybe it's his son or something...

Ta muchly!

Tim

--
Tim Watts

Have to say I've never actually tried it, but I doubt I'd like it much
either.

harry wrote:

On Sep 21, 10:17 am, Tim Watts wrote:
It's a roof - no I can't DIY that, though I will be DIYing the guttering
and soffits.

Roofers due to start a retile on Monday. just had a call - sorry mate:
staff all walked, don't have any one left.

*sigh*.

Pretty much follows the maxim get a list of 10 people, 4 answer the
phone, 2 quote, one quote is not silly and they can start in 3 weeks.
Then they can't...

SWMBO totally understands why I'd rather take years to do it myself than
rely on these disorganised eejits...

Sadly, a reroof is just not an option, even on a bungalow. Particularly
not with our unpredictable weather.

--
Tim Watts

Roofing is not a big deal. You can easily DIY. Just look at how it's
been done as you take it off & put it back the same. Plus undertile
felt.
Once the felt is on, it is weather tight.
Bad time of year for this job, wind, rain etc, Whoever is doing it..

I don't think I could do it - to much to do and only weekends and a few
leave days. From the quotes I've had it's 2 fit men for 2 weeks solid...

weather - it's been an entire ****e year for this job. I don't think a
week has been without rain since early spring until last week. I was hoping
to do this before we froze our nuts off (again)...

--
Tim Watts

Lobster wrote:
Have to say I've never actually tried it, but I doubt I'd like it much
either.
:-)

--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc-ra-cy) €“ a system of government where the least capable to
lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the
members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are
rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a
diminishing number of producers.

The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Lobster wrote:
Have to say I've never actually tried it, but I doubt I'd like it much
either.
:-)


You would if they were like the ones he

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_oKV20e1BM

--
Tim Watts

Tim Watts wrote:

Mark wrote:


"Tim Watts" wrote in message
...
It's a roof - no I can't DIY that, though I will be DIYing the guttering
and
soffits.

Have you tried RE Burt roofing, Battle. 20 or more years since i last had
dealings with them, but they were very good.


This guy?

R A Burt Roofing - Roofing Contracting Services in Battle TN33 0EW

Yes thats him.
If you do use them would you mind reporting back, so i know if they can
still be recommended in future.

-

"Tim Watts" wrote in message
...
harry wrote:

On Sep 21, 10:17 am, Tim Watts wrote:
It's a roof - no I can't DIY that, though I will be DIYing the guttering
and soffits.

Roofers due to start a retile on Monday. just had a call - sorry mate:
staff all walked, don't have any one left.

*sigh*.

Pretty much follows the maxim get a list of 10 people, 4 answer the
phone, 2 quote, one quote is not silly and they can start in 3 weeks.
Then they can't...

SWMBO totally understands why I'd rather take years to do it myself than
rely on these disorganised eejits...

Sadly, a reroof is just not an option, even on a bungalow. Particularly
not with our unpredictable weather.

--
Tim Watts

Roofing is not a big deal. You can easily DIY. Just look at how it's
been done as you take it off & put it back the same. Plus undertile
felt.
Once the felt is on, it is weather tight.
Bad time of year for this job, wind, rain etc, Whoever is doing it..

I don't think I could do it - to much to do and only weekends and a few
leave days. From the quotes I've had it's 2 fit men for 2 weeks solid...

weather - it's been an entire ****e year for this job. I don't think a
week has been without rain since early spring until last week.

You must have missed the virtually rain free Olympics then

tim

Sounds like an opportunity for a person to design a kind of lego build it
yourself roof system!

Brian

--
From the Sofa of Brian Gaff Reply address is active
"Tim Watts" wrote in message
...
It's a roof - no I can't DIY that, though I will be DIYing the guttering
and
soffits.

Roofers due to start a retile on Monday. just had a call - sorry mate:
staff
all walked, don't have any one left.

*sigh*.

Pretty much follows the maxim get a list of 10 people, 4 answer the phone,
2
quote, one quote is not silly and they can start in 3 weeks. Then they
can't...

SWMBO totally understands why I'd rather take years to do it myself than
rely on these disorganised eejits...

Sadly, a reroof is just not an option, even on a bungalow. Particularly
not
with our unpredictable weather.

--
Tim Watts

I think its the time of year that the Eastern European roofers go back home
for a couple of months so they can reclaim the tax they paid in the UK.

Brian

--
From the Sofa of Brian Gaff Reply address is active
"Phil" wrote in message
...
On 21/09/2012 10:14, Tim Watts wrote:
It's a roof - no I can't DIY that, though I will be DIYing the guttering
and
soffits.

Roofers due to start a retile on Monday. just had a call - sorry mate:
staff
all walked, don't have any one left.

*sigh*.

Pretty much follows the maxim get a list of 10 people, 4 answer the
phone, 2
quote, one quote is not silly and they can start in 3 weeks. Then they
can't...

SWMBO totally understands why I'd rather take years to do it myself than
rely on these disorganised eejits...

Sadly, a reroof is just not an option, even on a bungalow. Particularly
not
with our unpredictable weather.

Get it scaffolded & covered, then DIY at your leisure.

Brian Gaff wrote:

I think its the time of year that the Eastern European roofers go back
home for a couple of months so they can reclaim the tax they paid in the
UK.

Possibly. If I could find a couple of Polish roofers I'd have them over the
English anyday - at least that's been my experience of the polish - quiet,
hard workers and careful.

--
Tim Watts

In article ,
Brian Gaff wrote:
I think its the time of year that the Eastern European roofers go back
home for a couple of months so they can reclaim the tax they paid in
the UK.

A roofer paying tax? ;-)

--
*If work is so terrific, how come they have to pay you to do it?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

In article ,
Brian Gaff wrote:
I think its the time of year that the Eastern European roofers go back
home for a couple of months so they can reclaim the tax they paid in
the UK.

A roofer paying tax? ;-)


I just had a new candidate around for a quote - obviously a "posh" firm used
to doing character/conservation housing.

Spent half the time telling me that the last guy was doing everything wrong
and how much of a nicer job they could do ;-

Think I will now ring the guy in Battle and go on ebay for a defibrillator
for when today's quote comes in...

--
Tim Watts

In article ,
stuart noble writes:

Like a lot of trades, they stop answering the phone when they're busy
because they wouldn't be able give a starting date. When they're not
busy they tend to advertise in the local paper. Short sighted I know,
but that's how they are IME.

I was on the lookout for a few weeks before a suitable ad turned up in
the paper.

A builder told me, drive around your area looking for a house
having its roof done, and go and talk to the roofer. Don't be
surprised if he says he's booked for next 4-6 months, but he
should be able to come and give you a quote or rough idea
anyway.

Just did this with a friend's house - the roofer we found is
booked until February next year. However, he has popped around
and patched up a couple of leaks until then, so we're trusting
he will turn up to do the work.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

In message , Brian Gaff
writes
Sounds like an opportunity for a person to design a kind of lego build it
yourself roof system!

Not going to help Tim, but, confined to bed with severe sciatica, I
actually watched Tommy Walsh and his 60K house.

Couple of bits I noticed... I don't think they bothered to paint the
underside of the steel beam which was supposed to have two coats of
black paint!... the other was the metal battens used for the slates;
both horizontal to hang and a short vertical to space and provide
weatherproofing. Must save on slate.

--
Tim Lamb

Tim Lamb wrote:

In message , Brian Gaff
writes
Sounds like an opportunity for a person to design a kind of lego build it
yourself roof system!

Not going to help Tim, but, confined to bed with severe sciatica, I
actually watched Tommy Walsh and his 60K house.

Couple of bits I noticed... I don't think they bothered to paint the
underside of the steel beam which was supposed to have two coats of
black paint!... the other was the metal battens used for the slates;
both horizontal to hang and a short vertical to space and provide
weatherproofing. Must save on slate.


Quoting in large numbers is a fascinating exercise...

Incidently, I did a quick reckon up using online suppliers and I think my
roof will require about £5300 worth of materials etc, inc VAT, not inc the
discount I'm sure roofers can get. So with labour and allowing that they can
probably reduce the materials prices below and I may have overestimate the
amount of lead flashing, I reckon a final quote in the 9k region would be
reasonable for 2 men for 2 weeks.

Hipped tiles (Redland Grovebury interlocking concrete) £809.21
Dormer tiles (Redland plain concrete) £408.41
75mm Celotex (ebay, "new" grade) £864.00
50mm Celotex (ebay, "new" grade) £198.00
Ridge tiles (for hips too) £246.40
Flashing 240mm x 6m rolls £570.00
Membrane (Tyvek) £244.80
Cedar 6x1" planks for gutterboard £355.92
Scaffold (guestimate of scaffolder who was here yesterday)£900.00
Skip £250.00
Misc £500.00

The job spec is strip, insulate, mebrane, gutterboard (not soffits, not
refit gutter - I will reclaim my ali guttering and refit myself as well as
fit soffits 'cos it's easy but boring for roofers) and tile+flashing.

Here's a quick summary of quotes:

0) Various people who came and did not quote or could not be arsed to
come...

1) (Original lineup) discounted for wanting over £15000. Was full of good
ideas though like using interlocking tiles and me fitting windows at the
same time.

2) (Original guy booked for job) £9000.

3) Saturday's quote - no quote yet. Sniffed when I wanted interlocking tiles
and wanted to redo the flat dormer roofs as he reckoned it would be hard to
mesh the existing felt with lumpier hip roof tiles. Seems serious about
quoting, sent scaffolder around yesterday who gave me the 750+VAT
guesstimate when I asked out of interest (that's one lift of 2m or so around
a perimeter of about 40m.

4) Today's bloke - young (= actually doing work, not standing around
directing it) pleasant, seemed competant and said there would be no problem
leaving the felt dormers alone while using wavy interlocing tiles on the
hipped roof - in total contrast to quoter 3. Reckons he could start in 3
weeks or so.

Did say if I did fancy getting the dormers redone whilst they had
scaffolding and bits off, butyl rubber would cost me about 800 (+VAT I
expect which is tempting as the felt is in its last 5 years.

5) To come by later today.

6) To come by next Sat - but could not start until next year.


So if nothing else, having lots of quotes has allowed me to refine the
specification considerably and to conclude that some of they talk
********...


--
Tim Watts

Tim Watts wrote:

3) Saturday's quote - no quote yet. Sniffed when I wanted interlocking
tiles and wanted to redo the flat dormer roofs as he reckoned it would be
hard to mesh the existing felt with lumpier hip roof tiles. Seems serious
about quoting, sent scaffolder around yesterday who gave me the 750+VAT
guesstimate when I asked out of interest (that's one lift of 2m or so
around a perimeter of about 40m.


Quote just arrived - came in at a botty wibbling 19k.

What planet are these people on? I do not believe it was a FO quote because
he sent the scaffolder around to measure. 5k materials, 14k labour for a 2
week job???

Oh well, lets see what nos 4+5 come in at.

--
Tim Watts

In article , Tim Watts
scribeth thus
Tim Watts wrote:

3) Saturday's quote - no quote yet. Sniffed when I wanted interlocking
tiles and wanted to redo the flat dormer roofs as he reckoned it would be
hard to mesh the existing felt with lumpier hip roof tiles. Seems serious
about quoting, sent scaffolder around yesterday who gave me the 750+VAT
guesstimate when I asked out of interest (that's one lift of 2m or so
around a perimeter of about 40m.


Quote just arrived - came in at a botty wibbling 19k.

What planet are these people on? I do not believe it was a FO quote because
he sent the scaffolder around to measure. 5k materials, 14k labour for a 2
week job???

Oh well, lets see what nos 4+5 come in at.


Thats sound like a " we're too busy at the moment for that job so quote
him silly money and if he's daft enough to accept then we'll have a
bloody good earner on that" Quote....

--
Tony Sayer

tony sayer wrote:

In article , Tim Watts
scribeth thus
Tim Watts wrote:

3) Saturday's quote - no quote yet. Sniffed when I wanted interlocking
tiles and wanted to redo the flat dormer roofs as he reckoned it would
be hard to mesh the existing felt with lumpier hip roof tiles. Seems
serious about quoting, sent scaffolder around yesterday who gave me the
750+VAT guesstimate when I asked out of interest (that's one lift of 2m
or so around a perimeter of about 40m.


Quote just arrived - came in at a botty wibbling 19k.

What planet are these people on? I do not believe it was a FO quote
because he sent the scaffolder around to measure. 5k materials, 14k labour
for a 2 week job???

Oh well, lets see what nos 4+5 come in at.


Thats sound like a " we're too busy at the moment for that job so quote
him silly money and if he's daft enough to accept then we'll have a
bloody good earner on that" Quote....


Could be - still surprised he wasted the scaffolder's time - with that
markup, he could have guessed a random number (say 500) and however much
he'd been wrong would have been irrelevant in the markup.

If they are too busy - why not just say so - or give a reasonable quote with
a "can do it from March next year".

It will only take a few people to blog these sorts of quotes with teh name
of the firm attached and they could see a marked downturn in future
enquiries...

There definately is a very big hole in the Internet for a *single* well done
and ubiquitous trader review site.

Come to think, a product review site that allowed made it easy to check what
people thought of their product after X years use - this would be a great
leveller of manufacturers pushing crap while trading on badge engineering.

Of course, neither is simple as relying on punters to accurately represent a
single trader or classify a product correctly into a reasonable small but
sufficiently distinct categories is extremely difficult. Sounds like a job
for Google (thus solving the ubiquitous part).


--
Tim Watts

On 26/09/2012 14:51, Tim Watts wrote:

There definately is a very big hole in the Internet for a *single* well done
and ubiquitous trader review site.

Quite possibly...

Come to think, a product review site that allowed made it easy to check what
people thought of their product after X years use - this would be a great
leveller of manufacturers pushing crap while trading on badge engineering.

Of course, neither is simple as relying on punters to accurately represent a
single trader or classify a product correctly into a reasonable small but
sufficiently distinct categories is extremely difficult. Sounds like a job
for Google (thus solving the ubiquitous part).

The hard bit is getting something that can't be gamed... either vendors
doing glowing reviews of themselves or negative ones of competitors, and
in a more general sense avoiding the usual self selection bias of these
things (i.e. those with a complaint are far more likely to leave a
review than those who are happy). Put that into the context of not
knowing the size of the customer base of the vendor, and it gets hard to
get meaningful results.



--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

"Tim Watts" wrote in message
...
tony sayer wrote:

In article , Tim Watts
scribeth thus
Tim Watts wrote:

3) Saturday's quote - no quote yet. Sniffed when I wanted interlocking
tiles and wanted to redo the flat dormer roofs as he reckoned it would
be hard to mesh the existing felt with lumpier hip roof tiles. Seems
serious about quoting, sent scaffolder around yesterday who gave me the
750+VAT guesstimate when I asked out of interest (that's one lift of 2m
or so around a perimeter of about 40m.


Quote just arrived - came in at a botty wibbling 19k.

What planet are these people on? I do not believe it was a FO quote
because he sent the scaffolder around to measure. 5k materials, 14k
labour
for a 2 week job???

Oh well, lets see what nos 4+5 come in at.


Thats sound like a " we're too busy at the moment for that job so quote
him silly money and if he's daft enough to accept then we'll have a
bloody good earner on that" Quote....


Could be - still surprised he wasted the scaffolder's time - with that
markup, he could have guessed a random number (say 500) and however much
he'd been wrong would have been irrelevant in the markup.

If they are too busy - why not just say so - or give a reasonable quote
with
a "can do it from March next year".

It will only take a few people to blog these sorts of quotes with teh name
of the firm attached and they could see a marked downturn in future
enquiries...

There definately is a very big hole in the Internet for a *single* well
done
and ubiquitous trader review site.

And as soon as there is there will be another 17 copycats and we'll be back
where we started.

I actually thought that they was *one* semi official site backed by some
government body,

but I Googled for a trader the other day (DG AIH) and I got a dozen of them
(trader review sites, not DG companies)

tim

"John Rumm" wrote in message
o.uk...
On 26/09/2012 14:51, Tim Watts wrote:

There definately is a very big hole in the Internet for a *single* well
done
and ubiquitous trader review site.

Quite possibly...

Come to think, a product review site that allowed made it easy to check
what
people thought of their product after X years use - this would be a great
leveller of manufacturers pushing crap while trading on badge
engineering.

Of course, neither is simple as relying on punters to accurately
represent a
single trader or classify a product correctly into a reasonable small but
sufficiently distinct categories is extremely difficult. Sounds like a
job
for Google (thus solving the ubiquitous part).

The hard bit is getting something that can't be gamed... either vendors
doing glowing reviews of themselves or negative ones of competitors, and
in a more general sense avoiding the usual self selection bias of these
things (i.e. those with a complaint are far more likely to leave a review
than those who are happy). Put that into the context of not knowing the
size of the customer base of the vendor, and it gets hard to get
meaningful results.

I went to one last week and every single trader has scored 9.9 or 10.0.

I never give anyone a 9 or a 10 for doing the job right, they have to go the
extra mile on everything (such as making the tea themselves) to score that
highly. I can't be the only one this stingy with my praise :-)

tim

John Rumm wrote:

On 26/09/2012 14:51, Tim Watts wrote:

There definately is a very big hole in the Internet for a *single* well
done and ubiquitous trader review site.

Quite possibly...

Come to think, a product review site that allowed made it easy to check
what people thought of their product after X years use - this would be a
great leveller of manufacturers pushing crap while trading on badge
engineering.

Of course, neither is simple as relying on punters to accurately
represent a single trader or classify a product correctly into a
reasonable small but sufficiently distinct categories is extremely
difficult. Sounds like a job for Google (thus solving the ubiquitous
part).

The hard bit is getting something that can't be gamed... either vendors
doing glowing reviews of themselves or negative ones of competitors, and
in a more general sense avoiding the usual self selection bias of these
things (i.e. those with a complaint are far more likely to leave a
review than those who are happy). Put that into the context of not
knowing the size of the customer base of the vendor, and it gets hard to
get meaningful results.

Yes.

tripadvisor.co.uk comes to mind of a similar venture.

Hotels are represented exactly once (eg Premier Inn, South Blossom St, York
has one entry, not half an entry shared with the Blossom St North one or 3
entries because someone could not spell "Premier" or "Blossom").

Guess thye must have an editorial team - my reviews took a few days to
appear.

It's gamable, superficially - not sure how they deal with that...

I was thinking that a Trader's review site would be almost the same - except
that ideally you would have links to names previously traded under (for name
hoppers).

Products is much harder. I want to know about Current Product X
specifically, but the only reviews I would have would tell me if it did the
job OK out of the box. To determine if it is going to blow up at 13 months
old, I need to see the reviews of products by the same manufacturer in the
same function group from various times of their life. Managing categories is
going to be very much harder and getting people to review a product they've
had for 2,3,4 years will be much harder than, say, Argos sending an email to
someone they know has just bought the product, requesting a review.

--
Tim Watts

tim..... wrote:


And as soon as there is there will be another 17 copycats and we'll be
back where we started.

Possibly - but Google Shopper does not really have any competition - at
least not that are worth a damn.

I actually thought that they was *one* semi official site backed by some
government body


http://www.checkatrade.com/ ?

Seems useful but not ubiquitous - not sure who runs it. I've taken one
person from their lists for a quote (which is to come).

but I Googled for a trader the other day (DG AIH) and I got a dozen of
them (trader review sites, not DG companies)

tim
--
Tim Watts

Tim Watts wrote:

tim..... wrote:


And as soon as there is there will be another 17 copycats and we'll be
back where we started.

Possibly - but Google Shopper does not really have any competition - at
least not that are worth a damn.

I actually thought that they was *one* semi official site backed by some
government body


http://www.checkatrade.com/ ?

Seems useful but not ubiquitous - not sure who runs it. I've taken one
person from their lists for a quote (which is to come).


Ah - self selecting. You have to sign up and be vetted as a trader.

OK - so useful in as much as people who care about their reputation will use
it - but it will not list useless oiks.


--
Tim Watts

On 26/09/12 18:04, Tim Watts wrote:
John Rumm wrote:

On 26/09/2012 14:51, Tim Watts wrote:

There definately is a very big hole in the Internet for a *single* well
done and ubiquitous trader review site.

Quite possibly...

Come to think, a product review site that allowed made it easy to check
what people thought of their product after X years use - this would be a
great leveller of manufacturers pushing crap while trading on badge
engineering.

Of course, neither is simple as relying on punters to accurately
represent a single trader or classify a product correctly into a
reasonable small but sufficiently distinct categories is extremely
difficult. Sounds like a job for Google (thus solving the ubiquitous
part).

The hard bit is getting something that can't be gamed... either vendors
doing glowing reviews of themselves or negative ones of competitors, and
in a more general sense avoiding the usual self selection bias of these
things (i.e. those with a complaint are far more likely to leave a
review than those who are happy). Put that into the context of not
knowing the size of the customer base of the vendor, and it gets hard to
get meaningful results.

Yes.

tripadvisor.co.uk comes to mind of a similar venture.

Hotels are represented exactly once (eg Premier Inn, South Blossom St, York
has one entry, not half an entry shared with the Blossom St North one or 3
entries because someone could not spell "Premier" or "Blossom").

Guess thye must have an editorial team - my reviews took a few days to
appear.


Tripadvisor reviews can be unreliable, you have to factor in the
probable personality and taste of the reviewer. In the case of hotels;
if Amercians don't like it I probably will.

It's gamable, superficially - not sure how they deal with that...

I was thinking that a Trader's review site would be almost the same - except
that ideally you would have links to names previously traded under (for name
hoppers).

Products is much harder. I want to know about Current Product X
specifically, but the only reviews I would have would tell me if it did the
job OK out of the box. To determine if it is going to blow up at 13 months
old, I need to see the reviews of products by the same manufacturer in the
same function group from various times of their life. Managing categories is
going to be very much harder and getting people to review a product they've
had for 2,3,4 years will be much harder than, say, Argos sending an email to
someone they know has just bought the product, requesting a review.

And if the product was good four years ago that dosn't mean current
production is the same.


--
djc

"djc" wrote in message
...
On 26/09/12 18:04, Tim Watts wrote:
John Rumm wrote:

On 26/09/2012 14:51, Tim Watts wrote:

There definately is a very big hole in the Internet for a *single* well
done and ubiquitous trader review site.

Quite possibly...

Come to think, a product review site that allowed made it easy to check
what people thought of their product after X years use - this would be
a
great leveller of manufacturers pushing crap while trading on badge
engineering.

Of course, neither is simple as relying on punters to accurately
represent a single trader or classify a product correctly into a
reasonable small but sufficiently distinct categories is extremely
difficult. Sounds like a job for Google (thus solving the ubiquitous
part).

The hard bit is getting something that can't be gamed... either vendors
doing glowing reviews of themselves or negative ones of competitors, and
in a more general sense avoiding the usual self selection bias of these
things (i.e. those with a complaint are far more likely to leave a
review than those who are happy). Put that into the context of not
knowing the size of the customer base of the vendor, and it gets hard to
get meaningful results.

Yes.

tripadvisor.co.uk comes to mind of a similar venture.

Hotels are represented exactly once (eg Premier Inn, South Blossom St,
York
has one entry, not half an entry shared with the Blossom St North one or
3
entries because someone could not spell "Premier" or "Blossom").

Guess thye must have an editorial team - my reviews took a few days to
appear.


Tripadvisor reviews can be unreliable, you have to factor in the probable
personality and taste of the reviewer. In the case of hotels; if Amercians
don't like it I probably will.

What annoys me about it is people who go and stay in 2 star hotels in
developing countries paying perhaps 15 dollars per night, who then post on
TA - 2 out of 10, complaining that it didn't have any of the feature you'd
expect in a 4 star hotel at 150 dollars per night.

IMHO reviews should be relative, only an idiot books into a 15 dollar hotel
in a developing county expecting air con and mini bar. So you need to know
how it compares on the basics, i.e. was it clean!

tim