Can someone explain to me why dilution rates differ from watering can
and bar, versus spraying.?

I'm typically seeing 'x' amount in to 5 litres for watering can and
the same 'x' amount into 1 litre for spraying to cover the same area
of ground.

For Roundup for instance this area is 20m^2 and I do see difficulty in
spraying 1 litre of mixture evenly over that area.

In the end you are putting down the same amount of weed killer for the
area, so why the dilution variation?

Rob

robgraham wrote:

Can someone explain to me why dilution rates differ from watering can
and bar, versus spraying.?

I'm typically seeing 'x' amount in to 5 litres for watering can and
the same 'x' amount into 1 litre for spraying to cover the same area
of ground.

For Roundup for instance this area is 20m^2 and I do see difficulty in
spraying 1 litre of mixture evenly over that area.

In the end you are putting down the same amount of weed killer for the
area, so why the dilution variation?

The rate at which a pressure sprayer dispenses is much lower volume for
a given time than for a watering can and bar, if you made the mix as
strong with a can as you do with a sprayer, you'd have difficulty eaking
it out at all, let alone evenly.

On 19/09/2012 10:42, robgraham wrote:
Can someone explain to me why dilution rates differ from watering can
and bar, versus spraying.?

I'm typically seeing 'x' amount in to 5 litres for watering can and
the same 'x' amount into 1 litre for spraying to cover the same area
of ground.

For Roundup for instance this area is 20m^2 and I do see difficulty in
spraying 1 litre of mixture evenly over that area.

In the end you are putting down the same amount of weed killer for the
area, so why the dilution variation?

The spray mist is much finer than a dribble bar drops. To get the same
application rate the weedkiller needs to be more concentrated.

You can sometimes do better with a slightly over diluted mixture but it
takes longer to do its stuff (better for deep rooted weeds). But if you
cut it too fine then it doesn't kill the weeds at all and overuse will
get you into the US GM crops bind where they now have several serious
and pernicious weeds that are immune to glyphosate due to crass overuse.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

Aerosol size and dispersion via wind?

Brian

--
--
From the sofa of Brian Gaff -

Blind user, so no pictures please!
"robgraham" wrote in message
...
Can someone explain to me why dilution rates differ from watering can
and bar, versus spraying.?

I'm typically seeing 'x' amount in to 5 litres for watering can and
the same 'x' amount into 1 litre for spraying to cover the same area
of ground.

For Roundup for instance this area is 20m^2 and I do see difficulty in
spraying 1 litre of mixture evenly over that area.

In the end you are putting down the same amount of weed killer for the
area, so why the dilution variation?

Rob

"Martin Brown" wrote in message
...
On 19/09/2012 10:42, robgraham wrote:
Can someone explain to me why dilution rates differ from watering can
and bar, versus spraying.?

I'm typically seeing 'x' amount in to 5 litres for watering can and
the same 'x' amount into 1 litre for spraying to cover the same area
of ground.

For Roundup for instance this area is 20m^2 and I do see difficulty in
spraying 1 litre of mixture evenly over that area.

In the end you are putting down the same amount of weed killer for the
area, so why the dilution variation?

The spray mist is much finer than a dribble bar drops. To get the same
application rate the weedkiller needs to be more concentrated.

You can sometimes do better with a slightly over diluted mixture but it
takes longer to do its stuff (better for deep rooted weeds). But if you
cut it too fine then it doesn't kill the weeds at all and overuse will get
you into the US GM crops bind where they now have several serious and
pernicious weeds that are immune to glyphosate due to crass overuse.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown


This year, I tried to **** the brambles at the bottom of the garden using a
bramble and woody weedkiller that I found long forgotten in a cupboard in
the garage. You have to mix it with oil as well as water, and it smells
really vicious - a bit 'Jeyes-fliuidy' - like a decent weedkiller should ...
:-)

It started to do a pretty fair job, with the brambles wilting back over a
period of about a week. Then it started to rain again, and I couldn't get
back out there at any convenient time to pull them up. Then they started to
put on 'green' again. Doh!

Bottom line is that they have now produced some of the best and most
prolific blackberries that I have ever seen. The fruit looks healthy enough,
even though the main part of the stems and leaves still look a bit sad. So,
do we think that they would be safe enough to eat ? The garden isn't
littered with the corpses of poisoned birds. Just for sport, I picked three
big fat juicy ones last night, and ate them. No effects so far ...

Arfa

On Sep 19, 10:55*am, Martin Brown
wrote:
On 19/09/2012 10:42, robgraham wrote:

Can someone explain to me why dilution rates differ from watering can
and bar, versus spraying.?

I'm typically seeing 'x' amount in to 5 litres for watering can and
the same 'x' amount into 1 litre for spraying to cover the same area
of ground.

For Roundup for instance this area is 20m^2 and I do see difficulty in
spraying 1 litre of mixture evenly over that area.

In the end you are putting down the same amount of weed killer for the
area, so why the dilution variation?

The spray mist is much finer than a dribble bar drops. To get the same
application rate the weedkiller needs to be more concentrated.

You can sometimes do better with a slightly over diluted mixture but it
takes longer to do its stuff (better for deep rooted weeds). But if you
cut it too fine then it doesn't kill the weeds at all and overuse will
get you into the US GM crops bind where they now have several serious
and pernicious weeds that are immune to glyphosate due to crass overuse.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

I suspect that somewhere here I'm missing the point or being
(unusually!) thick.

If it takes 20ml of Roundup to treat 20 m^2, then the concentrate of
the dilution is unrelated to how the chemical is applied, as long as
it all goes evenly over the weeds in the area.

My difficulty is that if I only have 1 litre of mix for a spray, that
is going to be quite difficult to spray evenly over a rough area that
is 4m x 5m. I see no reason why I can't dilute the spray to say 5
litres, as long as the whole 5l goes on the weeds in the area. I can
box off the area and as long as I can see that I have used half the 5l
by the time I've done half then I'm doing the job OK - but judging
that for only a 1 litre mix would be nigh impossible

Where is my logic going wrong?

Rob

On 19/09/2012 13:11, robgraham wrote:
On Sep 19, 10:55 am, Martin Brown
wrote:
On 19/09/2012 10:42, robgraham wrote:

Can someone explain to me why dilution rates differ from watering can
and bar, versus spraying.?

I'm typically seeing 'x' amount in to 5 litres for watering can and
the same 'x' amount into 1 litre for spraying to cover the same area
of ground.

For Roundup for instance this area is 20m^2 and I do see difficulty in
spraying 1 litre of mixture evenly over that area.

In the end you are putting down the same amount of weed killer for the
area, so why the dilution variation?

The spray mist is much finer than a dribble bar drops. To get the same
application rate the weedkiller needs to be more concentrated.

You can sometimes do better with a slightly over diluted mixture but it
takes longer to do its stuff (better for deep rooted weeds). But if you
cut it too fine then it doesn't kill the weeds at all and overuse will
get you into the US GM crops bind where they now have several serious
and pernicious weeds that are immune to glyphosate due to crass overuse.

I suspect that somewhere here I'm missing the point or being
(unusually!) thick.

If it takes 20ml of Roundup to treat 20 m^2, then the concentrate of
the dilution is unrelated to how the chemical is applied, as long as
it all goes evenly over the weeds in the area.

My difficulty is that if I only have 1 litre of mix for a spray, that
is going to be quite difficult to spray evenly over a rough area that
is 4m x 5m. I see no reason why I can't dilute the spray to say 5
litres, as long as the whole 5l goes on the weeds in the area. I can
box off the area and as long as I can see that I have used half the 5l
by the time I've done half then I'm doing the job OK - but judging
that for only a 1 litre mix would be nigh impossible

Where is my logic going wrong?

You will find out if you actually try it that 1L in a sprayer goes a
long long way. I usually mix about 2L and that is enough to spot weed
about an acre of ground (as opposed to complete kill on 20m^2 (which is
a 5x4m rectangle and not really all that big).

Generally you find that application with a watering can is a lot more
hit and miss and wasteful compared to a weed wand backpack sprayer.

The thing you have to get right is the dose to individual plants. I
would not waste glyphosate in a watering can. Some things like PathClear
are only suitable for a watering can as too much partially dissolved
stuff would clog the jets.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

Brian Gaff wrote:

Aerosol size and dispersion via wind?


I spray mine with the nozzel set to a fairly coarse spray - with care (and
not doing it in significant wind) it seems to be OK.

It's also worth noting that to kill a plant with glyphosate seems to require
most of the foliage is covered. Getting half the plant kills that half of
the foliage but does not seem to necessarily kill the whole plant (species
dependant).

That was my observation when blatting the weeds in my garden a couple of
months back.

Also worth noting that glyphosate:

1) Has a slow "knock down" time - as much as 2 weeks before you can be sure
if it actually worked;

2) Best bought in concentrated amounts - I got mine from:

http://www.pitchcare.com/shop/amateu...lers/asteroid-
biocare-weedkiller-1l.html

Enough for £30 inc delivery to kill my entire garden about 4 times over.

You can get it even cheaper if you buy the truely "industrial" version.
--
Tim Watts

Arfa Daily wrote:

This year, I tried to **** the brambles at the bottom of the garden using
a bramble and woody weedkiller that I found long forgotten in a cupboard
in the garage. You have to mix it with oil as well as water, and it smells
really vicious - a bit 'Jeyes-fliuidy' - like a decent weedkiller should
...
:-)

It started to do a pretty fair job, with the brambles wilting back over a
period of about a week. Then it started to rain again, and I couldn't get
back out there at any convenient time to pull them up. Then they started
to put on 'green' again. Doh!

Bottom line is that they have now produced some of the best and most
prolific blackberries that I have ever seen. The fruit looks healthy
enough, even though the main part of the stems and leaves still look a bit
sad. So, do we think that they would be safe enough to eat ? The garden
isn't
littered with the corpses of poisoned birds. Just for sport, I picked
three big fat juicy ones last night, and ate them. No effects so far ...

I used ammonium suphamate on some of my brambles and glyphosate on others.

My conclusion is that the ammonium suplhamate show signs of burning the
leaves within hours and the brambles it dealt with are still very dead after
2 months.

The glyphosate is a little less conclusive.

--
Tim Watts

On 19/09/2012 13:33, Tim Streater wrote:
In article ,
Martin Brown wrote:

Generally you find that application with a watering can is a lot more
hit and miss and wasteful compared to a weed wand backpack sprayer.

The thing you have to get right is the dose to individual plants. I
would not waste glyphosate in a watering can. Some things like
PathClear are only suitable for a watering can as too much partially
dissolved stuff would clog the jets.

Other thing I found is that it's most cost effective to buy the
super-concentrate RoundUp which is a litre bottle at 360gm/litre of
glyphosate. Last one took 10 years to get through. Only place I've seen
it is B&Q, where they *only* have the empty bottles on the shelf - you
have to ask for a full one. Canterbury store had 10 bottles but they all
got nicked. Cannabis growers like it, for some reason, so they said.

Your local agricultural merchant will have it in bulk containers and
high strength. I refuse to buy Monsanto branded Roundup because of their
arrogant attempt to force GM Roundup Ready crops on the world - any
generic glyphosate mixture is just as good.

The funny thing is that US farmers have destroyed the effectiveness of
glyphosate in commercial farming in less than a decade as a result.

It is a great shame they have ruined a very good weedkiller by overuse.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

On Wed, 19 Sep 2012 13:33:35 +0100, Tim Streater
wrote:


Other thing I found is that it's most cost effective to buy the
super-concentrate RoundUp which is a litre bottle at 360gm/litre of
glyphosate. Last one took 10 years to get through. Only place I've seen
it is B&Q, where they *only* have the empty bottles on the shelf - you
have to ask for a full one. Canterbury store had 10 bottles but they all
got nicked. Cannabis growers like it, for some reason, so they said.

Any possible explanation as to why cannabis growers would need it?


--

Tim Watts wrote:

I used ammonium suphamate on some of my brambles

I used some a few years back, it seemed pretty effective on them, then
they banned it*

and glyphosate on others.

My conclusion is that the ammonium suplhamate show signs of burning the
leaves within hours and the brambles it dealt with are still very dead after
2 months.

The glyphosate is a little less conclusive.

I think I used to use it too strong, using it towards the weak range of
the recommended dilution and then waiting 3-4 weeks seems to work better
in the long run.

*you can still buy "Root Out" as a compost accelerator :-)
it seems more expensive than when it used to be a weedkiller :-(

Tim Watts wrote:
Arfa Daily wrote:

This year, I tried to **** the brambles at the bottom of the garden using
a bramble and woody weedkiller that I found long forgotten in a cupboard
in the garage. You have to mix it with oil as well as water, and it smells
really vicious - a bit 'Jeyes-fliuidy' - like a decent weedkiller should
...
:-)

It started to do a pretty fair job, with the brambles wilting back over a
period of about a week. Then it started to rain again, and I couldn't get
back out there at any convenient time to pull them up. Then they started
to put on 'green' again. Doh!

Bottom line is that they have now produced some of the best and most
prolific blackberries that I have ever seen. The fruit looks healthy
enough, even though the main part of the stems and leaves still look a bit
sad. So, do we think that they would be safe enough to eat ? The garden
isn't
littered with the corpses of poisoned birds. Just for sport, I picked
three big fat juicy ones last night, and ate them. No effects so far ...

I used ammonium suphamate on some of my brambles and glyphosate on others.

My conclusion is that the ammonium suplhamate show signs of burning the
leaves within hours and the brambles it dealt with are still very dead after
2 months.

The glyphosate is a little less conclusive.

i used glyphosate at 10x recommended strength on brambles. It worked.


--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc-ra-cy) €“ a system of government where the least capable to
lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the
members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are
rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a
diminishing number of producers.

The Natural Philosopher wrote:

i used glyphosate at 10x recommended strength on brambles. It worked.

I found that burnt the leaves off in quick order, but didn't get much
chance to attack the roots, if you've ever dug or rotavated ground with
brambles, you'll know how pervasive the root system is, so fresh shoots
were soon poking up everywhere.

Andy Burns wrote:
The Natural Philosopher wrote:

i used glyphosate at 10x recommended strength on brambles. It worked.

I found that burnt the leaves off in quick order, but didn't get much
chance to attack the roots, if you've ever dug or rotavated ground with
brambles, you'll know how pervasive the root system is, so fresh shoots
were soon poking up everywhere.

no, that worked down to the roots for me.

The brambles died off and never came back.



--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc-ra-cy) €“ a system of government where the least capable to
lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the
members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are
rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a
diminishing number of producers.

Tim Streater wrote:
In article ,
Andy Burns wrote:

Tim Watts wrote:

The glyphosate is a little less conclusive.

I think I used to use it too strong, using it towards the weak range
of the recommended dilution and then waiting 3-4 weeks seems to work
better in the long run.

Yes, just diluted as recommended and after a while it kills the roots.
All this about burning the leaves is just so much cobblers - it acts on
the roots.

and root death is evinced by the leaves shrivelling


--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc-ra-cy) €“ a system of government where the least capable to
lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the
members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are
rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a
diminishing number of producers.

On 19/09/2012 13:01, Brian Gaff wrote:
Aerosol size and dispersion via wind?

Brian


I came across some information which might help those interested in
experimenting...

http://www.garden-counselor-lawn-car...ed-killer.html


j

In article ,
Andy Burns writes:
The Natural Philosopher wrote:

i used glyphosate at 10x recommended strength on brambles. It worked.

I found that burnt the leaves off in quick order, but didn't get much
chance to attack the roots, if you've ever dug or rotavated ground with
brambles, you'll know how pervasive the root system is, so fresh shoots
were soon poking up everywhere.

There are many plants where moderate concentrations of glyphosate
kill the leaves before getting absorbed, and counter intuitively,
only weaker concentrations work for killing the plant.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

On Wed, 19 Sep 2012 13:41:37 +0100, Tim Watts
wrote:

I used ammonium suphamate on some of my brambles and glyphosate on others.

My conclusion is that the ammonium suplhamate show signs of burning the
leaves within hours and the brambles it dealt with are still very dead after
2 months.

The glyphosate is a little less conclusive.

I hit my brambles with 8% sol of off-paten Round-Up-alike and nothing
happened. Everything else died, but the brambles remaine apparently
untouched.
In October, a good couple of months later, they all suddenly died off.
I mean really died off; dead, Jim.

Grimly Curmudgeon wrote:
On Wed, 19 Sep 2012 13:41:37 +0100, Tim Watts
wrote:

I used ammonium suphamate on some of my brambles and glyphosate on others.

My conclusion is that the ammonium suplhamate show signs of burning the
leaves within hours and the brambles it dealt with are still very dead after
2 months.

The glyphosate is a little less conclusive.

I hit my brambles with 8% sol of off-paten Round-Up-alike and nothing
happened. Everything else died, but the brambles remaine apparently
untouched.
In October, a good couple of months later, they all suddenly died off.
I mean really died off; dead, Jim.

yep. When i did super dose the same thing happened, except it only took
a couple of weeks.


--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc-ra-cy) €“ a system of government where the least capable to
lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the
members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are
rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a
diminishing number of producers.