"Thank you for your recent email about our price increase. I am sorry
you have had cause to contact us in these circumstances and I hope
that my explanation will go some way to restoring your faith in SSE.

It may help if I explain the background behind our price increase.
There are 3 reasons why prices are changing.

Firstly, the cost of using the networks to get gas and electricity to
customers' homes is 9% more expensive than it was this time last year.
There are a number of mandatory environmental and social initiatives
that suppliers are required to fund. These include subsidising energy
efficiency measures and payment of the Warm Home Discount Rebate.
Unfortunately, these are 30% higher than they were a year ago.

We also buy some of our energy up to several years in advance. This
balanced and sensible approach has allowed us to protect our customers
from the sharp peaks in wholesale prices over the last few years. The
price we've paid is 14% higher than this time last year.

Whilst I note your comments about other suppliers' prices, I must
advise that it is not our normal policy to comment on the charges of
our competitors. We pride ourselves on the principles of our Building
Trust campaign; fairness, transparency and simplicity.

We buy some of our energy requirement far in advance, some a few
months ahead of delivery and the remainder is traded at the latest
possible time. This technique ensures that we buy just the right
amount of energy.

This balanced approach allows us to avoid sharp spikes in the cost of
energy but still allows us to take advantage of any sustained drops in
the forward price. It also allowed us to reduce our gas price in March
2012 and if the market conditions allow we will offer a reduction in
our prices.

Although the short term price of energy may fluctuate over the coming
months, our existing contracts enable us to promise no more increases
until the second half of 2013 at the earliest.

Naturally we are disappointed to announce this increase. Raising
prices is never an easy decision, particularly when the group has
posted a strong set of trading results.

Nevertheless, we must be aware that our retail business saw a
significant drop in profit last year and with rising costs set to
impact our business we simply could not maintain our current prices.
We have a responsibility to make a modest profit from energy supply."

---------------------------

Note their normal policy to not comment on other suppliers' prices,
yet the fact remains that Power NI are proposing a 14% *reduction* in
electricity due to easement of gas and coal prices.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-19343459

MM

MM wrote:
"Thank you for your recent email about our price increase. I am sorry
you have had cause to contact us in these circumstances and I hope
that my explanation will go some way to restoring your faith in SSE.

It may help if I explain the background behind our price increase.
There are 3 reasons why prices are changing.

Firstly, the cost of using the networks to get gas and electricity to
customers' homes is 9% more expensive than it was this time last year.
There are a number of mandatory environmental and social initiatives
that suppliers are required to fund. These include subsidising energy
efficiency measures and payment of the Warm Home Discount Rebate.
Unfortunately, these are 30% higher than they were a year ago.

We also buy some of our energy up to several years in advance. This
balanced and sensible approach has allowed us to protect our customers
from the sharp peaks in wholesale prices over the last few years. The
price we've paid is 14% higher than this time last year.

Whilst I note your comments about other suppliers' prices, I must
advise that it is not our normal policy to comment on the charges of
our competitors. We pride ourselves on the principles of our Building
Trust campaign; fairness, transparency and simplicity.

We buy some of our energy requirement far in advance, some a few
months ahead of delivery and the remainder is traded at the latest
possible time. This technique ensures that we buy just the right
amount of energy.

This balanced approach allows us to avoid sharp spikes in the cost of
energy but still allows us to take advantage of any sustained drops in
the forward price. It also allowed us to reduce our gas price in March
2012 and if the market conditions allow we will offer a reduction in
our prices.

Although the short term price of energy may fluctuate over the coming
months, our existing contracts enable us to promise no more increases
until the second half of 2013 at the earliest.

Naturally we are disappointed to announce this increase. Raising
prices is never an easy decision, particularly when the group has
posted a strong set of trading results.

Nevertheless, we must be aware that our retail business saw a
significant drop in profit last year and with rising costs set to
impact our business we simply could not maintain our current prices.
We have a responsibility to make a modest profit from energy supply."

---------------------------

Note their normal policy to not comment on other suppliers' prices,
yet the fact remains that Power NI are proposing a 14% *reduction* in
electricity due to easement of gas and coal prices.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-19343459

MM

Well tats what happens when you buy electricity from a company that
depends on gas and wind and probably ****, to make electricity.

25% less buying from EDF.

EON and RWE are depsreatly gouging te UK market to pay for te disater
rthat is te Geman electriciy market. Scottish and centrica are gas/wind..

EDF is stable and cheap. The nukes are all bought and the costs are
totally predictable.



--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc-ra-cy) €“ a system of government where the least capable to
lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the
members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are
rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a
diminishing number of producers.

On 27/08/2012 14:57, Graham Murray wrote:
The Natural Philosopher writes:

Well tats what happens when you buy electricity from a company that
depends on gas and wind and probably ****, to make electricity.

25% less buying from EDF.

EON and RWE are depsreatly gouging te UK market to pay for te disater
rthat is te Geman electriciy market. Scottish and centrica are
gas/wind..

EDF is stable and cheap. The nukes are all bought and the costs are
totally predictable.

Yet surely all the (end-user) supplies come from the same generation and
distribution network? So whether you purchase your electricity from SSE,
EDF, EON or whomsoever it is the same electricity generated by the same
mix of coal, gas, nuclear, wind turbine and hydro-electric and
distributed via the National Grid.

Not from the same mix at all. EDF own their nuclear power stations, also
have one coal and a few CCGT, IIRC. They are vertically integrated. They
need to cover the costs of their generation from their sales.

Also, there is a futures market. Some companies hedge a lot, some don't
hedge so much. In the long run the "efficient markets" theory should
even out the costs. But over shorter periods the income they need
depends on the spot price plus whatever hedging decisions they made in
the past.

--
For every complex problem, there is a solution which is simple, neat,
and wrong.
H L Menken

In article om,
newshound wrote:
On 27/08/2012 14:57, Graham Murray wrote:
The Natural Philosopher writes:

Well tats what happens when you buy electricity from a company that
depends on gas and wind and probably ****, to make electricity.

25% less buying from EDF.

EON and RWE are depsreatly gouging te UK market to pay for te disater
rthat is te Geman electriciy market. Scottish and centrica are
gas/wind..

EDF is stable and cheap. The nukes are all bought and the costs are
totally predictable.

Yet surely all the (end-user) supplies come from the same generation and
distribution network? So whether you purchase your electricity from SSE,
EDF, EON or whomsoever it is the same electricity generated by the same
mix of coal, gas, nuclear, wind turbine and hydro-electric and
distributed via the National Grid.

Not from the same mix at all. EDF own their nuclear power stations, also
have one coal and a few CCGT, IIRC. They are vertically integrated. They
need to cover the costs of their generation from their sales.

are their electrons marked as such, so that they only go to EDF customers?

--
From KT24

Using a RISC OS computer running v5.18

newshound wrote:
On 27/08/2012 14:57, Graham Murray wrote:
The Natural Philosopher writes:

Well tats what happens when you buy electricity from a company that
depends on gas and wind and probably ****, to make electricity.

25% less buying from EDF.

EON and RWE are depsreatly gouging te UK market to pay for te
disater rthat is te Geman electriciy market. Scottish and centrica
are gas/wind..

EDF is stable and cheap. The nukes are all bought and the costs are
totally predictable.

Yet surely all the (end-user) supplies come from the same generation
and distribution network? So whether you purchase your electricity
from SSE, EDF, EON or whomsoever it is the same electricity
generated by the same mix of coal, gas, nuclear, wind turbine and
hydro-electric and distributed via the National Grid.

Not from the same mix at all. EDF own their nuclear power stations,
also have one coal and a few CCGT, IIRC. They are vertically
integrated. They need to cover the costs of their generation from
their sales.

Do they have separate cable runs from their power stations to their end
users then? And that's one of the reasons there is no REAL competition
between tha various energy companies - and why they use a vast array of
pricing schemes to confuse the public into thinking there is competition. A
bit like this idiotic government is trying to do, rather than forcing the
energy companies to lower the prices (or re-nationalise them) - ah I nearly
forgot, I their coffers are receiving 5% VAT on every unit/therm used and
shareholders skimming millions off as well -- thanks to Thatcher's
government of 1979 to 1990 who actually put 17.5% on gas and electricity
prices to add insult to injury (Gordon Brown reduced that to the minimum of
5% under EEC rules in his first budget when Labour came to power).

From one who has never fallen for the con - and never subscribed to a
dual-fuel tariff.

On Mon, 27 Aug 2012 16:15:53 +0100, charles
wrote:

are their electrons marked as such, so that they only go to EDF customers?

Yes, they used to have red yellow and blue ones but the EU changed all that.


--

In article , The Other Mike
wrote:
On Mon, 27 Aug 2012 16:15:53 +0100, charles
wrote:

are their electrons marked as such, so that they only go to EDF
customers?

Yes, they used to have red yellow and blue ones but the EU changed all
that.

but theya re still differnt colour - just

--
From KT24

Using a RISC OS computer running v5.18

The Other Mike wrote:
On Mon, 27 Aug 2012 16:15:53 +0100, charles
wrote:

are their electrons marked as such, so that they only go to EDF customers?

Yes, they used to have red yellow and blue ones but the EU changed all that.


On the vague assumption you really dont know how it works, EDF customer
division will buy electricity wholeseale from its own generators and
possibly others to supply its customers.

They match eventually how much they have sold with how much they have
bought.



--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc-ra-cy) €“ a system of government where the least capable to
lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the
members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are
rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a
diminishing number of producers.

In article , The Natural Philosopher
wrote:
The Other Mike wrote:
On Mon, 27 Aug 2012 16:15:53 +0100, charles
wrote:

are their electrons marked as such, so that they only go to EDF
customers?

Yes, they used to have red yellow and blue ones but the EU changed all
that.


On the vague assumption you really dont know how it works, EDF customer
division will buy electricity wholeseale from its own generators and
possibly others to supply its customers.

They match eventually how much they have sold with how much they have
bought.

We all know that - the question is how do you know what you are using only
electricity generated by wind (for instance).

--
From KT24

Using a RISC OS computer running v5.18

On Aug 27, 2:03*pm, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

[... snip substantive post ...]

--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc’-ra-cy) – a system of government where the least capable to
lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the
members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are
rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a
diminishing number of producers.

The rich and powerful are completely unable to sustain themselves or
succeed without making a claim on those who actually produce. Bankers
and such elect politicians to "liberalise" and unfetter markets in
which they operate, and then reward themselves handsomely with goods
and services confiscated from those who actually produce them.

charles wrote:
In article , The Natural Philosopher
wrote:
The Other Mike wrote:
On Mon, 27 Aug 2012 16:15:53 +0100, charles
wrote:

are their electrons marked as such, so that they only go to EDF
customers?
Yes, they used to have red yellow and blue ones but the EU changed all
that.


On the vague assumption you really dont know how it works, EDF customer
division will buy electricity wholeseale from its own generators and
possibly others to supply its customers.

They match eventually how much they have sold with how much they have
bought.

We all know that - the question is how do you know what you are using only
electricity generated by wind (for instance).

nPower's fudge on their Juice tariff is to say that they guarantee to
buy enough renewable power during the year (Currently mostly wind) to
cover your total requirements.

What they don't say is that all your power will always come from
renewables, because it can't.

--
Tciao for Now!

John.

On Mon, 27 Aug 2012 21:16:55 +0100, charles
wrote:

We all know that - the question is how do you know what you are using only
electricity generated by wind (for instance).

How do you know? - all the lights have gone out

If you are electrically 'close' to wind generation and it is generating then the
chances are higher but it is not certain by any means.

Measurement of supply and demand for settlement purposes is over a 30 minute
period. Instantaneous supply and demand may vary within that period such that
the source of supply will not be known. Don't forget that the vast majority of
consumers (of all types) meter nothing other than a total cumulative demand for
energy.

If demand for wind exceeds contracted supply at point in time x, then some will
come from other sources, even from 'nasty' coal and gas and nukes.

--

In article , The Other Mike
wrote:
On Mon, 27 Aug 2012 21:16:55 +0100, charles
wrote:

We all know that - the question is how do you know what you are using
only electricity generated by wind (for instance).

How do you know? - all the lights have gone out

If you are electrically 'close' to wind generation and it is generating
then the chances are higher but it is not certain by any means.

Measurement of supply and demand for settlement purposes is over a 30
minute period. Instantaneous supply and demand may vary within that
period such that the source of supply will not be known. Don't forget
that the vast majority of consumers (of all types) meter nothing other
than a total cumulative demand for energy.

If demand for wind exceeds contracted supply at point in time x, then
some will come from other sources, even from 'nasty' coal and gas and
nukes.

How shocking.

--
From KT24

Using a RISC OS computer running v5.18

On Mon, 27 Aug 2012 20:43:30 +0100, charles
wrote:

In article , The Other Mike
wrote:
On Mon, 27 Aug 2012 16:15:53 +0100, charles
wrote:

are their electrons marked as such, so that they only go to EDF
customers?

Yes, they used to have red yellow and blue ones but the EU changed all
that.

but theya re still differnt colour - just

Only if you have access to a nice bright 150W incandescent lamp.


--

charles wrote:
In article , The Natural Philosopher
wrote:
The Other Mike wrote:
On Mon, 27 Aug 2012 16:15:53 +0100, charles
wrote:

are their electrons marked as such, so that they only go to EDF
customers?
Yes, they used to have red yellow and blue ones but the EU changed all
that.


On the vague assumption you really dont know how it works, EDF customer
division will buy electricity wholeseale from its own generators and
possibly others to supply its customers.

They match eventually how much they have sold with how much they have
bought.

We all know that - the question is how do you know what you are using only
electricity generated by wind (for instance).

well in the case of electrons you don't. You pay a company that is
selling windpower TO the grid for your electricity FROM the grid as it
were,. Same with gas.


--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc-ra-cy) €“ a system of government where the least capable to
lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the
members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are
rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a
diminishing number of producers.

The Other Mike wrote:
On Mon, 27 Aug 2012 21:16:55 +0100, charles
wrote:

We all know that - the question is how do you know what you are using only
electricity generated by wind (for instance).

How do you know? - all the lights have gone out

If you are electrically 'close' to wind generation and it is generating then the
chances are higher but it is not certain by any means.

Measurement of supply and demand for settlement purposes is over a 30 minute
period. Instantaneous supply and demand may vary within that period such that
the source of supply will not be known. Don't forget that the vast majority of
consumers (of all types) meter nothing other than a total cumulative demand for
energy.

If demand for wind exceeds contracted supply at point in time x, then some will
come from other sources, even from 'nasty' coal and gas and nukes.

RWE has a 'renewable' power station burning imported wood pellets from
Canada IIRC.

Scottish power will sell you hydro when it can.


--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc-ra-cy) €“ a system of government where the least capable to
lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the
members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are
rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a
diminishing number of producers.

On Mon, 27 Aug 2012 22:14:59 +0100, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

RWE has a 'renewable' power station burning imported wood pellets from
Canada IIRC.

Yes I told you about that many months ago

Did you know about the new interconnector to Eire?


--

The Other Mike wrote:
On Mon, 27 Aug 2012 22:14:59 +0100, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

RWE has a 'renewable' power station burning imported wood pellets from
Canada IIRC.

Yes I told you about that many months ago

Did you know about the new interconnector to Eire?



really? is it up and running?



--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc-ra-cy) €“ a system of government where the least capable to
lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the
members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are
rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a
diminishing number of producers.

The Other Mike wrote:
On Mon, 27 Aug 2012 22:14:59 +0100, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

RWE has a 'renewable' power station burning imported wood pellets from
Canada IIRC.

Yes I told you about that many months ago

Did you know about the new interconnector to Eire?


Bugger. I'll have to build a new control panel. :-)

And add a new field to the database




--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc-ra-cy) €“ a system of government where the least capable to
lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the
members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are
rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a
diminishing number of producers.

"MM" wrote in message
...
"Thank you for your recent email about our price increase. I am sorry
you have had cause to contact us in these circumstances and I hope
that my explanation will go some way to restoring your faith in SSE.

It may help if I explain the background behind our price increase.
There are 3 reasons why prices are changing.

Firstly, the cost of using the networks to get gas and electricity to
customers' homes is 9% more expensive than it was this time last year.
There are a number of mandatory environmental and social initiatives
that suppliers are required to fund. These include subsidising energy
efficiency measures and payment of the Warm Home Discount Rebate.
Unfortunately, these are 30% higher than they were a year ago.

We also buy some of our energy up to several years in advance. This
balanced and sensible approach has allowed us to protect our customers
from the sharp peaks in wholesale prices over the last few years. The
price we've paid is 14% higher than this time last year.

Whilst I note your comments about other suppliers' prices, I must
advise that it is not our normal policy to comment on the charges of
our competitors. We pride ourselves on the principles of our Building
Trust campaign; fairness, transparency and simplicity.

We buy some of our energy requirement far in advance, some a few
months ahead of delivery and the remainder is traded at the latest
possible time. This technique ensures that we buy just the right
amount of energy.

This balanced approach allows us to avoid sharp spikes in the cost of
energy but still allows us to take advantage of any sustained drops in
the forward price. It also allowed us to reduce our gas price in March
2012 and if the market conditions allow we will offer a reduction in
our prices.

Although the short term price of energy may fluctuate over the coming
months, our existing contracts enable us to promise no more increases
until the second half of 2013 at the earliest.

Naturally we are disappointed to announce this increase. Raising
prices is never an easy decision, particularly when the group has
posted a strong set of trading results.

Nevertheless, we must be aware that our retail business saw a
significant drop in profit last year and with rising costs set to
impact our business we simply could not maintain our current prices.
We have a responsibility to make a modest profit from energy supply."

---------------------------

Note their normal policy to not comment on other suppliers' prices,
yet the fact remains that Power NI are proposing a 14% *reduction* in
electricity due to easement of gas and coal prices.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-19343459

MM


Interesting that the prices in NI are cheaper despite the fact that energy
in NI is far more expensive, it has to come through the UK for a start.

They have no reserves of coal gas or oil yet can still set a cheaper
price!!!

Wonder why that is?


Perhaps someone from one of the terrrorist organisations put pressure on
them to set a fair price?

"MM" wrote in message
...
"Thank you for your recent email about our price increase. I am sorry
you have had cause to contact us in these circumstances and I hope
that my explanation will go some way to restoring your faith in SSE.

It may help if I explain the background behind our price increase.
There are 3 reasons why prices are changing.

Firstly, the cost of using the networks to get gas and electricity to
customers' homes is 9% more expensive than it was this time last year.
There are a number of mandatory environmental and social initiatives
that suppliers are required to fund. These include subsidising energy
efficiency measures and payment of the Warm Home Discount Rebate.
Unfortunately, these are 30% higher than they were a year ago.

We also buy some of our energy up to several years in advance. This
balanced and sensible approach has allowed us to protect our customers
from the sharp peaks in wholesale prices over the last few years. The
price we've paid is 14% higher than this time last year.

Whilst I note your comments about other suppliers' prices, I must
advise that it is not our normal policy to comment on the charges of
our competitors. We pride ourselves on the principles of our Building
Trust campaign; fairness, transparency and simplicity.

We buy some of our energy requirement far in advance, some a few
months ahead of delivery and the remainder is traded at the latest
possible time. This technique ensures that we buy just the right
amount of energy.

This balanced approach allows us to avoid sharp spikes in the cost of
energy but still allows us to take advantage of any sustained drops in
the forward price. It also allowed us to reduce our gas price in March
2012 and if the market conditions allow we will offer a reduction in
our prices.

Although the short term price of energy may fluctuate over the coming
months, our existing contracts enable us to promise no more increases
until the second half of 2013 at the earliest.

Naturally we are disappointed to announce this increase. Raising
prices is never an easy decision, particularly when the group has
posted a strong set of trading results.

Nevertheless, we must be aware that our retail business saw a
significant drop in profit last year and with rising costs set to
impact our business we simply could not maintain our current prices.
We have a responsibility to make a modest profit from energy supply."

---------------------------

Note their normal policy to not comment on other suppliers' prices,
yet the fact remains that Power NI are proposing a 14% *reduction* in
electricity due to easement of gas and coal prices.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-19343459

MM


Wonder how how long before the rest of the cartel put their
price up by the same amount?

" We pride ourselves on the principles of our Building
Trust campaign; fairness, transparency and simplicity."

If that was the case why don't they make public when they bought
and for how much, it seems remarkable they always
buy at the wrong time when it was more expensive.

Crooked *******s.

"MM" wrote in message
...
"Thank you for your recent email about our price increase. I am sorry
you have had cause to contact us in these circumstances and I hope
that my explanation will go some way to restoring your faith in SSE.

It may help if I explain the background behind our price increase.
There are 3 reasons why prices are changing.

Firstly, the cost of using the networks to get gas and electricity to
customers' homes is 9% more expensive than it was this time last year.
There are a number of mandatory environmental and social initiatives
that suppliers are required to fund. These include subsidising energy
efficiency measures and payment of the Warm Home Discount Rebate.
Unfortunately, these are 30% higher than they were a year ago.

We also buy some of our energy up to several years in advance. This
balanced and sensible approach has allowed us to protect our customers
from the sharp peaks in wholesale prices over the last few years. The
price we've paid is 14% higher than this time last year.

Whilst I note your comments about other suppliers' prices, I must
advise that it is not our normal policy to comment on the charges of
our competitors. We pride ourselves on the principles of our Building
Trust campaign; fairness, transparency and simplicity.

We buy some of our energy requirement far in advance, some a few
months ahead of delivery and the remainder is traded at the latest
possible time. This technique ensures that we buy just the right
amount of energy.

This balanced approach allows us to avoid sharp spikes in the cost of
energy but still allows us to take advantage of any sustained drops in
the forward price. It also allowed us to reduce our gas price in March
2012 and if the market conditions allow we will offer a reduction in
our prices.

Although the short term price of energy may fluctuate over the coming
months, our existing contracts enable us to promise no more increases
until the second half of 2013 at the earliest.

Naturally we are disappointed to announce this increase. Raising
prices is never an easy decision, particularly when the group has
posted a strong set of trading results.

Nevertheless, we must be aware that our retail business saw a
significant drop in profit last year and with rising costs set to
impact our business we simply could not maintain our current prices.
We have a responsibility to make a modest profit from energy supply."

---------------------------

Note their normal policy to not comment on other suppliers' prices,
yet the fact remains that Power NI are proposing a 14% *reduction* in
electricity due to easement of gas and coal prices.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-19343459

MM


The Warm Home Discount Rebate, is only about 10% for les than 10% of the
population
abounting to 1% overall. Many who wilbe eligible will not claim it anyway,
it is very
restrictive on who can claim, probaly 5% of the population or less making a
0.5%
increase.
I do not see why distribribution costs shoud have gone up at all, at least
not more
than inflation. Why shoudl they? the network is already there!!
You can be sure they are not paying their staff big pay risese (apart form
the greedy directors)
And distribution only forms a small part of a the price.
So why have prices risen?
Most staff will have had pay freezes and the cost of energy has not gone up
10%.


Just a cartel operating a rip off.

R. Giggs. wrote:
"MM" wrote in message
...
"Thank you for your recent email about our price increase. I am sorry
you have had cause to contact us in these circumstances and I hope
that my explanation will go some way to restoring your faith in SSE.

It may help if I explain the background behind our price increase.
There are 3 reasons why prices are changing.

Firstly, the cost of using the networks to get gas and electricity to
customers' homes is 9% more expensive than it was this time last year.
There are a number of mandatory environmental and social initiatives
that suppliers are required to fund. These include subsidising energy
efficiency measures and payment of the Warm Home Discount Rebate.
Unfortunately, these are 30% higher than they were a year ago.

We also buy some of our energy up to several years in advance. This
balanced and sensible approach has allowed us to protect our customers
from the sharp peaks in wholesale prices over the last few years. The
price we've paid is 14% higher than this time last year.

Whilst I note your comments about other suppliers' prices, I must
advise that it is not our normal policy to comment on the charges of
our competitors. We pride ourselves on the principles of our Building
Trust campaign; fairness, transparency and simplicity.

We buy some of our energy requirement far in advance, some a few
months ahead of delivery and the remainder is traded at the latest
possible time. This technique ensures that we buy just the right
amount of energy.

This balanced approach allows us to avoid sharp spikes in the cost of
energy but still allows us to take advantage of any sustained drops in
the forward price. It also allowed us to reduce our gas price in March
2012 and if the market conditions allow we will offer a reduction in
our prices.

Although the short term price of energy may fluctuate over the coming
months, our existing contracts enable us to promise no more increases
until the second half of 2013 at the earliest.

Naturally we are disappointed to announce this increase. Raising
prices is never an easy decision, particularly when the group has
posted a strong set of trading results.

Nevertheless, we must be aware that our retail business saw a
significant drop in profit last year and with rising costs set to
impact our business we simply could not maintain our current prices.
We have a responsibility to make a modest profit from energy supply."

---------------------------

Note their normal policy to not comment on other suppliers' prices,
yet the fact remains that Power NI are proposing a 14% *reduction* in
electricity due to easement of gas and coal prices.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-19343459

MM


The Warm Home Discount Rebate, is only about 10% for les than 10% of the
population
abounting to 1% overall. Many who wilbe eligible will not claim it anyway,
it is very
restrictive on who can claim, probaly 5% of the population or less making a
0.5%
increase.
I do not see why distribribution costs shoud have gone up at all, at least
not more
than inflation. Why shoudl they? the network is already there!!

No it isn't. You need to treble the grid size or more for the same
amount of intermittent generation (renewable) as conventional.

You cant downsize a cable just because the wind stops blowing.

Even though its now not doing anything.

One of the things the renewable lobby 'leaves out' when talking about
the cost of wind power etc.

The reality of the situation is that gas prices in Europe are rocketing,
gas power stations are now only worth running to handle peak demand,
coal is the cheapest these days but that gets fined for being coal
IIRC, and there isn't enough nuclear to make up the difference.
Renewable energy is viciously expensive and has knock on costs in terms
of reduced profits for gas power stations, increase grid capacity needed
and increased maintenance bills on the conventional equipment it has to
be co-operated with.



Just a cartel operating a rip off.

That is reneable energy all right. A government created cartel.





--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc-ra-cy) €“ a system of government where the least capable to
lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the
members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are
rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a
diminishing number of producers.

"R. Giggs." wrote in message
...


I do not see why distribribution costs shoud have gone up at all, at least
not more
than inflation. Why should they? the network is already there!!

Unfortunately the network isn't already there.
Every time someone adds generation you have to build a bit of network.
This means that every time someone adds a windmill (not the tiny ones on
houses) there is a new bit of network to maintain.

Its made worse because of the small output from the mills, they cost far
more per mile per kWatt hr than a big power station does in installation and
maintenance.
Maintenance ~= co2 so they are not as green as claimed either.

On Tue, 28 Aug 2012 03:50:02 +0100, "R. Giggs."
wrote:

Just a cartel operating a rip off.

Exactly. If there were true competition prices would be much lower
and energy companies are using the cartel to boost profits.
--
(\__/) M.
(='.'=) If a man stands in a forest and no woman is around
(")_(") is he still wrong?

Mark wrote:
On Tue, 28 Aug 2012 03:50:02 +0100, "R. Giggs."
wrote:

Just a cartel operating a rip off.

Exactly. If there were true competition prices would be much lower
and energy companies are using the cartel to boost profits.

The EU is the cartel.


--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc-ra-cy) €“ a system of government where the least capable to
lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the
members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are
rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a
diminishing number of producers.

On Aug 28, 9:07*am, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:
R. Giggs. wrote:

One of the things the renewable lobby 'leaves out' when talking about
the cost of wind power etc.

There is quite a lot left out when it comes to talking about rewable
energy.

The most scandalous is the Climate change initiative under which
producers of alternative energy are not only guaranteed a market for
their electricity (even if its run to earth) but a hefty premium on te
spiot price paid to others. The cost is tacked onto your bill. I am
vague regarding the aomout but works out at £100+ a year per
household.

No matter waht is costs it rrepresents hidden taxation. If an industry
is to be subsidised the it should be subsidised directly by government
and not by edict of government. Then the true costs, the figures get
onto the books and are transparent and accounted for.

It's not the only hidden taxation there is aan atem mentioned on MM's
reply that refers to a "Warm Home Discount Scheme" This runs under
various names like Sta-warm" and amounts to a scheme whereunder
households suffering low incomes may enjoy discounts on their energy
bills.

Nobody I hope would question the intent of the scheme. However, if
there does exist a situation in this country where individuals,
particulalrly during cold periods, are unable to afford sufficient
energy to keep them warm, then surely is is a question of welfare. The
cost of such schemes should not simply be transferred from a consumer
in straitened circumstances to one more fortunate by government edict.
Rather the cost should come from the social welfare budget which comes
out of government renvenues. Then the figures are in the open are
taken into account and we get to know what welfare really costs us.

There is an increasing tendancy for governments (note the plural) to
engage in this surreptitious form of revenue collection and spending.
It's dishonest!

On Aug 27, 4:40*pm, "Woodworm" wrote:
newshound wrote:
On 27/08/2012 14:57, Graham Murray wrote:
The Natural Philosopher writes:

Well tats what happens when you buy electricity from a company that
depends on gas and wind and probably ****, to make electricity.

25% less buying from EDF.

EON and RWE are depsreatly gouging te UK market to pay for te
disater rthat is te Geman electriciy market. Scottish and centrica
are gas/wind..

EDF is stable and cheap. The nukes are all bought and the costs are
totally predictable.

Yet surely all the (end-user) supplies come from the same generation
and distribution network? So whether you purchase your electricity
from SSE, EDF, EON or whomsoever it is the same electricity
generated by the same mix of coal, gas, nuclear, wind turbine and
hydro-electric and distributed via the National Grid.

Not from the same mix at all. EDF own their nuclear power stations,
also have one coal and a few CCGT, IIRC. They are vertically
integrated. They need to cover the costs of their generation from
their sales.

Do they have separate cable runs from their power stations to their end
users then? *And that's one of the reasons there is no REAL competition
between tha various energy companies - and why they use a vast array of
pricing schemes to confuse the public into thinking there is competition. *A
bit like this idiotic government is trying to do, rather than forcing the
energy companies to lower the prices (or re-nationalise them) - ah I nearly
forgot, I their coffers are receiving 5% VAT on every unit/therm used and
shareholders skimming millions off as well -- thanks to Thatcher's
government of 1979 to 1990 who actually put 17.5% on gas and electricity
prices to add insult to injury (Gordon Brown reduced that to the minimum of
5% under EEC rules in his first budget when Labour came to power).

Everyone should have a VAT free basic allowance of X kwh. Anything
above that is a luxury and should be taxed at 20% VAT.

MBQ

"Man at B&Q" wrote in message
...

On Aug 27, 4:40 pm, "Woodworm" wrote:
newshound wrote:
On 27/08/2012 14:57, Graham Murray wrote:
The Natural Philosopher writes:

Well tats what happens when you buy electricity from a company that
depends on gas and wind and probably ****, to make electricity.

25% less buying from EDF.

EON and RWE are depsreatly gouging te UK market to pay for te
disater rthat is te Geman electriciy market. Scottish and centrica
are gas/wind..

EDF is stable and cheap. The nukes are all bought and the costs are
totally predictable.

Yet surely all the (end-user) supplies come from the same generation
and distribution network? So whether you purchase your electricity
from SSE, EDF, EON or whomsoever it is the same electricity
generated by the same mix of coal, gas, nuclear, wind turbine and
hydro-electric and distributed via the National Grid.

Not from the same mix at all. EDF own their nuclear power stations,
also have one coal and a few CCGT, IIRC. They are vertically
integrated. They need to cover the costs of their generation from
their sales.

Do they have separate cable runs from their power stations to their end
users then? And that's one of the reasons there is no REAL competition
between tha various energy companies - and why they use a vast array of
pricing schemes to confuse the public into thinking there is competition.
A
bit like this idiotic government is trying to do, rather than forcing the
energy companies to lower the prices (or re-nationalise them) - ah I
nearly
forgot, I their coffers are receiving 5% VAT on every unit/therm used and
shareholders skimming millions off as well -- thanks to Thatcher's
government of 1979 to 1990 who actually put 17.5% on gas and electricity
prices to add insult to injury (Gordon Brown reduced that to the minimum
of
5% under EEC rules in his first budget when Labour came to power).

Everyone should have a VAT free basic allowance of X kwh. Anything
above that is a luxury and should be taxed at 20% VAT.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So how's that going to work?

Does someone who uses the same energy source for lighting, heating and
cooking get just a fraction of the VAT free allowance of those who use
different energy sources for lighting, heating and cooking or do we have
some complicated method of "equalisation"?

And what's a fair value for basic heating needs given the huge disparity
between insulation standards of houses? And what about differences for
local weather patterns?

And what about size of house? (or number of people in the house). It costs
more to heat a 5 bedroom house than a 1 bed one, and whilst you could
reasonably argue that if a single person chooses to live in a 5 bed (s)he
doesn't deserve a higher allowance, this isn't true of a 7 person family
living in the same.

tim

On Tue, 28 Aug 2012 20:36:00 +0100, The Other Mike
wrote:

The return on capital on those assets

shoudl be "The return on capital for transmission and distribution assets owned
by a network operator"
--

MM wrote:
:: "Thank you for your recent email about our price increase. I am sorry
:: you have had cause to contact us in these circumstances and I hope
:: that my explanation will go some way to restoring your faith in SSE.
::
:: It may help if I explain the background behind our price increase.
:: There are 3 reasons why prices are changing.
::
:: Firstly, the cost of using the networks to get gas and electricity to
:: customers' homes is 9% more expensive than it was this time last
:: year. There are a number of mandatory environmental and social
:: initiatives that suppliers are required to fund. These include
:: subsidising energy efficiency measures and payment of the Warm Home
:: Discount Rebate. Unfortunately, these are 30% higher than they were
:: a year ago.
::
:: We also buy some of our energy up to several years in advance. This
:: balanced and sensible approach has allowed us to protect our
:: customers from the sharp peaks in wholesale prices over the last few
:: years. The price we've paid is 14% higher than this time last year.
::
:: Whilst I note your comments about other suppliers' prices, I must
:: advise that it is not our normal policy to comment on the charges of
:: our competitors. We pride ourselves on the principles of our Building
:: Trust campaign; fairness, transparency and simplicity.
::
:: We buy some of our energy requirement far in advance, some a few
:: months ahead of delivery and the remainder is traded at the latest
:: possible time. This technique ensures that we buy just the right
:: amount of energy.
::
:: This balanced approach allows us to avoid sharp spikes in the cost of
:: energy but still allows us to take advantage of any sustained drops
:: in the forward price. It also allowed us to reduce our gas price in
:: March 2012 and if the market conditions allow we will offer a
:: reduction in our prices.
::
:: Although the short term price of energy may fluctuate over the coming
:: months, our existing contracts enable us to promise no more increases
:: until the second half of 2013 at the earliest.
::
:: Naturally we are disappointed to announce this increase. Raising
:: prices is never an easy decision, particularly when the group has
:: posted a strong set of trading results.
::
:: Nevertheless, we must be aware that our retail business saw a
:: significant drop in profit last year and with rising costs set to
:: impact our business we simply could not maintain our current prices.
:: We have a responsibility to make a modest profit from energy supply."
::
:: ---------------------------
::
:: Note their normal policy to not comment on other suppliers' prices,
:: yet the fact remains that Power NI are proposing a 14% *reduction* in
:: electricity due to easement of gas and coal prices.
:: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-19343459
::
:: MM

Regulation increases costs, competition decreases them.

The Other Mike wrote:
On Mon, 27 Aug 2012 23:25:51 +0100, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

The Other Mike wrote:
On Mon, 27 Aug 2012 22:14:59 +0100, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

RWE has a 'renewable' power station burning imported wood pellets from
Canada IIRC.
Yes I told you about that many months ago

Did you know about the new interconnector to Eire?


really? is it up and running?

Jan / Feb 2013 +/- 500MW


OK I have time to mod the site then :-)


--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc-ra-cy) €“ a system of government where the least capable to
lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the
members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are
rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a
diminishing number of producers.

The Other Mike wrote:
On Tue, 28 Aug 2012 03:50:02 +0100, "R. Giggs." wrote:

I do not see why distribribution costs shoud have gone up at all, at least
not more
than inflation. Why shoudl they? the network is already there!!

The transmission and distribution networks in the UK needs replacing on a
continuous basis as many assets are coming to the end of their service life and
some are way beyond that and may even fail catastrophically potentially harming
staff and members of the public, hence why there is now near continuous asset
replacement, often with a significantly increased asset life. A set level of
return on those assets is permitted by the regulator (they don't come 'free')

If that happens in NI I don't know but I would hazard a guess the asset life in
NI is around the same as the UK and thus requiring a similar level of
investment.

Anyway, in a few months the Island of Ireland will be getting even cheaper power
'from Wales'


Wylfa?


--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc-ra-cy) €“ a system of government where the least capable to
lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the
members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are
rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a
diminishing number of producers.

Tired wrote:
MM wrote:
:: "Thank you for your recent email about our price increase. I am sorry
:: you have had cause to contact us in these circumstances and I hope
:: that my explanation will go some way to restoring your faith in SSE.
::
:: It may help if I explain the background behind our price increase.
:: There are 3 reasons why prices are changing.
::
:: Firstly, the cost of using the networks to get gas and electricity to
:: customers' homes is 9% more expensive than it was this time last
:: year. There are a number of mandatory environmental and social
:: initiatives that suppliers are required to fund. These include
:: subsidising energy efficiency measures and payment of the Warm Home
:: Discount Rebate. Unfortunately, these are 30% higher than they were
:: a year ago.
::
:: We also buy some of our energy up to several years in advance. This
:: balanced and sensible approach has allowed us to protect our
:: customers from the sharp peaks in wholesale prices over the last few
:: years. The price we've paid is 14% higher than this time last year.
::
:: Whilst I note your comments about other suppliers' prices, I must
:: advise that it is not our normal policy to comment on the charges of
:: our competitors. We pride ourselves on the principles of our Building
:: Trust campaign; fairness, transparency and simplicity.
::
:: We buy some of our energy requirement far in advance, some a few
:: months ahead of delivery and the remainder is traded at the latest
:: possible time. This technique ensures that we buy just the right
:: amount of energy.
::
:: This balanced approach allows us to avoid sharp spikes in the cost of
:: energy but still allows us to take advantage of any sustained drops
:: in the forward price. It also allowed us to reduce our gas price in
:: March 2012 and if the market conditions allow we will offer a
:: reduction in our prices.
::
:: Although the short term price of energy may fluctuate over the coming
:: months, our existing contracts enable us to promise no more increases
:: until the second half of 2013 at the earliest.
::
:: Naturally we are disappointed to announce this increase. Raising
:: prices is never an easy decision, particularly when the group has
:: posted a strong set of trading results.
::
:: Nevertheless, we must be aware that our retail business saw a
:: significant drop in profit last year and with rising costs set to
:: impact our business we simply could not maintain our current prices.
:: We have a responsibility to make a modest profit from energy supply."
::
:: ---------------------------
::
:: Note their normal policy to not comment on other suppliers' prices,
:: yet the fact remains that Power NI are proposing a 14% *reduction* in
:: electricity due to easement of gas and coal prices.
:: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-19343459
::
:: MM

Regulation increases costs, competition decreases them.


You cant compete with a technology that gets anything from 7p-50p a unit
guranteed income over and above the actual sale price and which is
guaranteed a market whether its needed or not.


--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc-ra-cy) €“ a system of government where the least capable to
lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the
members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are
rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a
diminishing number of producers.

On Tue, 28 Aug 2012 18:24:26 +0100, "tim....."
wrote:

"Man at B&Q" wrote in message
...

On Aug 27, 4:40 pm, "Woodworm" wrote:
newshound wrote:
On 27/08/2012 14:57, Graham Murray wrote:
The Natural Philosopher writes:

Well tats what happens when you buy electricity from a company that
depends on gas and wind and probably ****, to make electricity.

25% less buying from EDF.

EON and RWE are depsreatly gouging te UK market to pay for te
disater rthat is te Geman electriciy market. Scottish and centrica
are gas/wind..

EDF is stable and cheap. The nukes are all bought and the costs are
totally predictable.

Yet surely all the (end-user) supplies come from the same generation
and distribution network? So whether you purchase your electricity
from SSE, EDF, EON or whomsoever it is the same electricity
generated by the same mix of coal, gas, nuclear, wind turbine and
hydro-electric and distributed via the National Grid.

Not from the same mix at all. EDF own their nuclear power stations,
also have one coal and a few CCGT, IIRC. They are vertically
integrated. They need to cover the costs of their generation from
their sales.

Do they have separate cable runs from their power stations to their end
users then? And that's one of the reasons there is no REAL competition
between tha various energy companies - and why they use a vast array of
pricing schemes to confuse the public into thinking there is competition.
A
bit like this idiotic government is trying to do, rather than forcing the
energy companies to lower the prices (or re-nationalise them) - ah I
nearly
forgot, I their coffers are receiving 5% VAT on every unit/therm used and
shareholders skimming millions off as well -- thanks to Thatcher's
government of 1979 to 1990 who actually put 17.5% on gas and electricity
prices to add insult to injury (Gordon Brown reduced that to the minimum
of
5% under EEC rules in his first budget when Labour came to power).

Everyone should have a VAT free basic allowance of X kwh. Anything
above that is a luxury and should be taxed at 20% VAT.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So how's that going to work?

Does someone who uses the same energy source for lighting, heating and
cooking get just a fraction of the VAT free allowance of those who use
different energy sources for lighting, heating and cooking or do we have
some complicated method of "equalisation"?

And what's a fair value for basic heating needs given the huge disparity
between insulation standards of houses? And what about differences for
local weather patterns?

And what about size of house? (or number of people in the house). It costs
more to heat a 5 bedroom house than a 1 bed one, and whilst you could
reasonably argue that if a single person chooses to live in a 5 bed (s)he
doesn't deserve a higher allowance, this isn't true of a 7 person family
living in the same.

That was kind of what I was thinking. It's a nice idea in theory but
would be overcomplicated and prone to error in practice.

(BTW Can you quote properly? Preferably abandon Windows Live Mail or
get the earlier version which could quote).
--
(\__/) M.
(='.'=) If a man stands in a forest and no woman is around
(")_(") is he still wrong?

On Tue, 28 Aug 2012 20:26:52 +0100, The Other Mike
wrote:

On Tue, 28 Aug 2012 03:50:02 +0100, "R. Giggs." wrote:

I do not see why distribribution costs shoud have gone up at all, at least
not more
than inflation. Why shoudl they? the network is already there!!

The transmission and distribution networks in the UK needs replacing on a
continuous basis as many assets are coming to the end of their service life and
some are way beyond that and may even fail catastrophically potentially harming
staff and members of the public, hence why there is now near continuous asset
replacement, often with a significantly increased asset life. A set level of
return on those assets is permitted by the regulator (they don't come 'free')

If the new assets have a "significantly increased asset life" then the
price of energy should drop in the medium term ;-)
--
(\__/) M.
(='.'=) If a man stands in a forest and no woman is around
(")_(") is he still wrong?

On Tue, 28 Aug 2012 22:05:32 +0100, "Tired" wrote:

--snip--

Regulation increases costs, competition decreases them.

If only.
--
(\__/) M.
(='.'=) If a man stands in a forest and no woman is around
(")_(") is he still wrong?

Woodworm wrote:

thanks to Thatcher's government of 1979 to 1990 who actually put
17.5% on gas and electricity prices

Bzzzzt! They did introduce an 8% VAT rate for gas and electricity, with
a plan to raise it to the standard 17.5% rate, but the plan never
happened (due to labour coming into power).

Gordon Brown reduced that to the minimum of 5%

Correct.

Mark wrote:
On Tue, 28 Aug 2012 22:05:32 +0100, "Tired" wrote:

--snip--

Regulation increases costs, competition decreases them.

If only.
example?


--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc-ra-cy) €“ a system of government where the least capable to
lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the
members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are
rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a
diminishing number of producers.

On Tue, 28 Aug 2012 22:22:44 +0100, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

The Other Mike wrote:

Anyway, in a few months the Island of Ireland will be getting even cheaper power
'from Wales'


Wylfa?

Possibly for a few months, maybe even a year but it can't continue to operate
beyond January 2014.

Connah's Quay 1.4GW of 'cheap' gas generation is sited not too far away
electrically from the new Irish Interconnector. I'm surprised its still going
though as it's been up and running for a decade and a half, by that age many gas
plants are completely f*cked.

--