http://www.blagdonthepondmasters.co....er_Leaflet.pdf

Can anyone spot any errors?

--
Adam

ARWadsworth wrote:
http://www.blagdonthepondmasters.co....er_Leaflet.pdf

Can anyone spot any errors?

What is a 50 cm rubber cable?

At a stretch probably a non conductive one?

Brian

--
--
From the sofa of Brian Gaff -

Blind user, so no pictures please!
"F Murtz" wrote in message
nd.com...
ARWadsworth wrote:
http://www.blagdonthepondmasters.co....er_Leaflet.pdf

Can anyone spot any errors?

What is a 50 cm rubber cable?

Brian Gaff wrote:
At a stretch probably a non conductive one?

Brian

A big giant large one (tautology)

On 29/06/2012 21:41, ARWadsworth wrote:
http://www.blagdonthepondmasters.co....er_Leaflet.pdf

Can anyone spot any errors?

How many do you want ;-)

I am dubious about the whole "its not under part P because its plugged
in" excuse... basically if its a permanent installation, of fixed
equipment then its notifiable*

Cable fixed to temporary structure (fence panel).

No comments on ensuring cable trench is free of sharp stones / lining
with sand if required etc.

The custom plug and socket bit seems like a nice little earner - rather
than provide an outdoor socket that can take a normal BS1362 plug, get
them to buy new plugs so they fit their dangly "soap on a rope" sockets.

The "Prevents household RCD activation on faults up to 30mA.
Garden Circuit Breaker working at 25mA means that your house mains
electric supply (30mA) WON’T be cut, should you experience an
outdoor electrical fault (between 25-30mA)." seems like a round about
way of saying "your CU RCD will probably trip!"

Having said all that, its better than the semi permanent installation of
a bog standard extension lead.



* while I appreciate that means it gets treated with all the respect
that it should usually be accorded.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
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\================================================= ================/

John Rumm wrote:


I am dubious about the whole "its not under part P because its plugged
in" excuse... basically if its a permanent installation, of fixed
equipment then its notifiable*

I'd say they get round that by decribing it as a 'pre-fabricated
equipment set', 521.100.
I
t doesnt need notification to BC if it is not in a special location, if
it is:
"a prefabricated equipment set and associated flexible leads with
integral plug and socket connections"

- from page 8 of Building Regs Part P.
Which is probably why they use their own connections too.

No, I'm not a walking Part P and Regs book - I did a Building Regs
course yesterday, and this came up in the 'notify or not' section.

--
To reply by e-mail, change the ' + ' to 'plus'.

John Rumm wrote:
On 29/06/2012 21:41, ARWadsworth wrote:
http://www.blagdonthepondmasters.co....er_Leaflet.pdf

Can anyone spot any errors?

How many do you want ;-)

I am dubious about the whole "its not under part P because its plugged
in" excuse... basically if its a permanent installation, of fixed
equipment then its notifiable*

Cable fixed to temporary structure (fence panel).

No comments on ensuring cable trench is free of sharp stones / lining
with sand if required etc.

The custom plug and socket bit seems like a nice little earner -
rather than provide an outdoor socket that can take a normal BS1362
plug, get them to buy new plugs so they fit their dangly "soap on a
rope" sockets.
The "Prevents household RCD activation on faults up to 30mA.
Garden Circuit Breaker working at 25mA means that your house mains
electric supply (30mA) WON’T be cut, should you experience an
outdoor electrical fault (between 25-30mA)." seems like a round about
way of saying "your CU RCD will probably trip!"

Having said all that, its better than the semi permanent installation
of a bog standard extension lead.



* while I appreciate that means it gets treated with all the respect
that it should usually be accorded.


You and Andy Wade were the two people I thought of when I posted the link:-)

http://www.blagdonthepondmasters.co....it_Breaker.pdf

Is there a 25mA RCD in the British Standards?

--
Adam

Can anyone spot any errors?

Is there one the other way - ie where they are overstating the law - in
the comment "If you currently use power products in the garden they
must, by law, be run by a RCD"? I appreciate that current and recent
iterations of the regs have required RCD protection for sockets likely
to be used for power in the garden but I wasn't aware of a law against
me being an idiot if I want to with an unprotected socket which complied
with the regs when it was installed.


--
Robin
reply to address is (meant to be) valid

Robin wrote:
Can anyone spot any errors?

Is there one the other way - ie where they are overstating the law -
in the comment "If you currently use power products in the garden they
must, by law, be run by a RCD"? I appreciate that current and recent
iterations of the regs have required RCD protection for sockets likely
to be used for power in the garden but I wasn't aware of a law against
me being an idiot if I want to with an unprotected socket which
complied with the regs when it was installed.


:-) IKWYM

Page 2 says (sorry for the capital letters I copied and pasted the box from
page 2 of the pdf)

POWERSAFE PRODUCTS COMPLY WITH LEGAL ELECTRICAL SAFETY STANDARDS.

ELECTRICAL STANDARDS STATE THAT:

.. ALL OUTDOOR POWER SUPPLIES MUST BE PROTECTED BY A CIRCUIT
BREAKER.
.. ALL OUTDOOR ELECTRICAL COMPONENTS MUST COMPLY WITH OUTDOOR WEATHERPROOF
SAFETY STANDARDS.
.. ALL POWER SUPPLIESACROSS THE GARDEN MUST BE CARRIED BY METAL SHEATHED
ARMOUREDCABLE.
.. IF BURIED, WARNING TAPE MUST BE APPLIED.

Is a circuit breaker a RCD? Do they mean a plug in RCD circuit breaker?
They do not mention an RCD in that part of their pdf and I would not expect
a normal circuit breaker to include RCD protection. Am I breaking the law by
not using a plug in RCD even though I am using a 30mA RCD protected socket?

Of course I only made the post because I am an annoying ******* who likes to
find fault with companys that cannot get things right. But you already knew
that.

Blagdon will be getting an email and a phone call from me. Any words of
wisdom are welcome before I give them a bollocking for uploading such a pile
of ****e onto the internet.

--
Adam

On 30/06/2012 16:37, ARWadsworth wrote:

You and Andy Wade were the two people I thought of when I posted the link:-)
http://www.blagdonthepondmasters.co....it_Breaker.pdf
Is there a 25mA RCD in the British Standards?

The standard for plug-in RCDs seems to be non-harmonised - BS 7071:1992
(confirmed 2007). This talks in terms of 'rated tripping current' - for
which no preferred values are given. So any value that the manufacturer
cares to give it would seem to be OK. (In contrast the familiar BS EN
61008 for consumer unit RCCBs gives 'preferred' I-delta-n values of 10,
30, 100 and 300 mA.)

The tripping characteristics in BS 7071 are the usual ones: it must not
trip at half the rated I-trip, and must trip at I-trip - so 12.5 to 25
mA in this case.

Their hope of achieving discrimination with a house RCD is of course
fanciful - you'd need an isolating transformer to achieve that.

It's unfortunate that in the 'Tech Specs' the supply frequency is given
in units of inductance and the trip speed in units of conductance - no
technical proofreader, clearly.

Nevertheless it's a well-intentioned attempt to provide a kit that
allows a non-electrical-specialist to do a safe-enough job, I think.

--
Andy

On 30/06/2012 16:26, A.Lee wrote:
John wrote:


I am dubious about the whole "its not under part P because its plugged
in" excuse... basically if its a permanent installation, of fixed
equipment then its notifiable*

I'd say they get round that by decribing it as a 'pre-fabricated
equipment set', 521.100.
I
t doesnt need notification to BC if it is not in a special location, if
it is:
"a prefabricated equipment set and associated flexible leads with
integral plug and socket connections"

- from page 8 of Building Regs Part P.
Which is probably why they use their own connections too.

No, I'm not a walking Part P and Regs book - I did a Building Regs
course yesterday, and this came up in the 'notify or not' section.

I install quite a few electric patio awnings & the manufacturers
instructions say that if it's plugged in rather than wired in, it
doesn't need to be notified.


--
Dave - The Medway Handyman www.medwayhandyman.co.uk

On 30/06/2012 16:26, A.Lee wrote:
John Rumm wrote:


I am dubious about the whole "its not under part P because its plugged
in" excuse... basically if its a permanent installation, of fixed
equipment then its notifiable*

I'd say they get round that by decribing it as a 'pre-fabricated
equipment set', 521.100.
I
t doesnt need notification to BC if it is not in a special location, if
it is:
"a prefabricated equipment set and associated flexible leads with
integral plug and socket connections"

- from page 8 of Building Regs Part P.
Which is probably why they use their own connections too.

Which is fine, up to the point you install your permanent equipment such
as the pond pump... at which point the means of connection becomes
irrelevant ;-)

No, I'm not a walking Part P and Regs book - I did a Building Regs
course yesterday, and this came up in the 'notify or not' section.



--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 30/06/2012 19:10, The Medway Handyman wrote:
On 30/06/2012 16:26, A.Lee wrote:
John wrote:


I am dubious about the whole "its not under part P because its plugged
in" excuse... basically if its a permanent installation, of fixed
equipment then its notifiable*

I'd say they get round that by decribing it as a 'pre-fabricated
equipment set', 521.100.
I
t doesnt need notification to BC if it is not in a special location, if
it is:
"a prefabricated equipment set and associated flexible leads with
integral plug and socket connections"

- from page 8 of Building Regs Part P.
Which is probably why they use their own connections too.

No, I'm not a walking Part P and Regs book - I did a Building Regs
course yesterday, and this came up in the 'notify or not' section.

I install quite a few electric patio awnings & the manufacturers
instructions say that if it's plugged in rather than wired in, it
doesn't need to be notified.

Given its fixed to the outside wall of the house most likely, then it
would be unlikely to anyway[1]. (the "plugged in" get out is a misnomer,
in much the same way a boiler connected via a plug and socket is still
fixed equipment)

[1] An outside light or single socket mounted that way would also be ok.

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

In article ,
John Rumm wrote:
On 30/06/2012 16:26, A.Lee wrote:
John Rumm wrote:


I am dubious about the whole "its not under part P because its plugged
in" excuse... basically if its a permanent installation, of fixed
equipment then its notifiable*

I'd say they get round that by decribing it as a 'pre-fabricated
equipment set', 521.100.
I
t doesnt need notification to BC if it is not in a special location, if
it is:
"a prefabricated equipment set and associated flexible leads with
integral plug and socket connections"

- from page 8 of Building Regs Part P.
Which is probably why they use their own connections too.

Which is fine, up to the point you install your permanent equipment such
as the pond pump... at which point the means of connection becomes
irrelevant ;-)


my pond pump is plugged in to a 134A outlet. what is permanent about that?

--
From KT24

Using a RISC OS computer running v5.18

On 30/06/2012 17:55, ARWadsworth wrote:
Robin wrote:
Can anyone spot any errors?

Is there one the other way - ie where they are overstating the law -
in the comment "If you currently use power products in the garden they
must, by law, be run by a RCD"? I appreciate that current and recent
iterations of the regs have required RCD protection for sockets likely
to be used for power in the garden but I wasn't aware of a law against
me being an idiot if I want to with an unprotected socket which
complied with the regs when it was installed.


:-) IKWYM

Page 2 says (sorry for the capital letters I copied and pasted the box from
page 2 of the pdf)

POWERSAFE PRODUCTS COMPLY WITH LEGAL ELECTRICAL SAFETY STANDARDS.

ELECTRICAL STANDARDS STATE THAT:

. ALL OUTDOOR POWER SUPPLIES MUST BE PROTECTED BY A CIRCUIT
BREAKER.
. ALL OUTDOOR ELECTRICAL COMPONENTS MUST COMPLY WITH OUTDOOR WEATHERPROOF
SAFETY STANDARDS.
. ALL POWER SUPPLIESACROSS THE GARDEN MUST BE CARRIED BY METAL SHEATHED
ARMOUREDCABLE.
. IF BURIED, WARNING TAPE MUST BE APPLIED.

Is a circuit breaker a RCD? Do they mean a plug in RCD circuit breaker?
They do not mention an RCD in that part of their pdf and I would not expect
a normal circuit breaker to include RCD protection. Am I breaking the law by
not using a plug in RCD even though I am using a 30mA RCD protected socket?

Of course I only made the post because I am an annoying ******* who likes to
find fault with companys that cannot get things right. But you already knew
that.

Blagdon will be getting an email and a phone call from me. Any words of
wisdom are welcome before I give them a bollocking for uploading such a pile
of ****e onto the internet.

In fairness, it could be much worse... they overstate some bits, gloss
over others etc, but its a reasonably well thought out system. A numpty
would have to try somewhat harder to create a death trap with one of
those kits than if left to their own devices.

Their pre-assembled SWA gland combi also possibly gets round the problem
of "tool-less" access to a TN-C-S earth in a location with access to and
independent earth reference.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 30/06/2012 22:42, charles wrote:
In article ,
John Rumm wrote:
On 30/06/2012 16:26, A.Lee wrote:
John Rumm wrote:


I am dubious about the whole "its not under part P because its plugged
in" excuse... basically if its a permanent installation, of fixed
equipment then its notifiable*

I'd say they get round that by decribing it as a 'pre-fabricated
equipment set', 521.100.
I
t doesnt need notification to BC if it is not in a special location, if
it is:
"a prefabricated equipment set and associated flexible leads with
integral plug and socket connections"

- from page 8 of Building Regs Part P.
Which is probably why they use their own connections too.

Which is fine, up to the point you install your permanent equipment such
as the pond pump... at which point the means of connection becomes
irrelevant ;-)


my pond pump is plugged in to a 134A outlet. what is permanent about that?

Well it probably takes a hell of an effort to get the plug out and move
the cable

SteveW

On Sat, 30 Jun 2012 22:42:41 +0100, charles
wrote:


my pond pump is plugged in to a 134A outlet. what is permanent about that?


Bloimy! Are you trying to emulate the Lake Geneva fountain or
something?

Nick

John Rumm wrote:
On 30/06/2012 17:55, ARWadsworth wrote:
Robin wrote:
Can anyone spot any errors?
In fairness, it could be much worse... they overstate some bits, gloss
over others etc, but its a reasonably well thought out system. A
numpty would have to try somewhat harder to create a death trap with
one of those kits than if left to their own devices.

Their pre-assembled SWA gland combi also possibly gets round the
problem of "tool-less" access to a TN-C-S earth in a location with
access to and independent earth reference.

I just wabt them to correct the errors. The kit itself seems OK

--
Adam

On Sat, 30 Jun 2012 15:37:14 +0100, John Rumm
wrote:

The "Prevents household RCD activation on faults up to 30mA.
Garden Circuit Breaker working at 25mA means that your house mains
electric supply (30mA) WON’T be cut, should you experience an
outdoor electrical fault (between 25-30mA)." seems like a round about
way of saying "your CU RCD will probably trip!"


Is there a way on ensuring the local rcd would trip first? My boss has
a submersible pond pump on the same circuit as his garage, with his
freezer. When the pump went west it tripped the rcd on the consumer
unit and stopped the freezer.

AJH

On 01/07/2012 10:43, wrote:
On Sat, 30 Jun 2012 15:37:14 +0100, John Rumm
wrote:

The "Prevents household RCD activation on faults up to 30mA.
Garden Circuit Breaker working at 25mA means that your house mains
electric supply (30mA) WON’T be cut, should you experience an
outdoor electrical fault (between 25-30mA)." seems like a round about
way of saying "your CU RCD will probably trip!"


Is there a way on ensuring the local rcd would trip first? My boss has
a submersible pond pump on the same circuit as his garage, with his
freezer. When the pump went west it tripped the rcd on the consumer
unit and stopped the freezer.

The only way to reliably discriminate with cascaded RCDs is to use a
time delay RCD at the head end[1]. That way even if a leakage current is
applied to the circuit that is adequate to trip both, the downstream one
will trip first and hopefully clear the fault before the higher up one
decides its time to trip.

Attempting to discriminate on trip current alone is unlikely to be
successful, since many real world faults will produce enough leakage to
trip both, and then you just have a race condition as to which (or both)
get their first.

[1] these require the fault to be present for a few tens of ms, before
they trip. Hence they are fine for circuit and fire protection, but no
use for shock protection.

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On Mon, 02 Jul 2012 02:56:23 +0100, John Rumm wrote:

Attempting to discriminate on trip current alone is unlikely to be
successful, since many real world faults will produce enough leakage to
trip both, and then you just have a race condition as to which (or
both) get their first.

Get their what? B-)

Not to mention the upstream one will be probably be feeding other
circuits and thus have the leakage of those circuits passing through it
as well.

RCD1 -+- Other circuits - 10mA
|
+- RCD2 - 10mA

So RCD1 only has 10mA of head room before it reaches it's rated trip
current but RCD2 has 20mA.

--
Cheers
Dave.

On Jul 1, 8:08*am, "ARWadsworth"
wrote:
John Rumm wrote:
On 30/06/2012 17:55, ARWadsworth wrote:
Robin wrote:
Can anyone spot any errors?
In fairness, it could be much worse... they overstate some bits, gloss
over others etc, but its a reasonably well thought out system. A
numpty would have to try somewhat harder to create a death trap with
one of those kits than if left to their own devices.

Their pre-assembled SWA gland combi also possibly gets round the
problem of "tool-less" access to a TN-C-S earth in a location with
access to and independent earth reference.

I just wabt them to correct the errors. The kit itself seems OK

offer your services....

(i.e. yr electrickery expertise to re-write the crap bits as opposed
to anything else... unless she sounds nice of course!)

Jim K

On 02/07/2012 08:19, Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Mon, 02 Jul 2012 02:56:23 +0100, John Rumm wrote:

Attempting to discriminate on trip current alone is unlikely to be
successful, since many real world faults will produce enough leakage to
trip both, and then you just have a race condition as to which (or
both) get their first.

Get their what? B-)

their trip over and done with ;-)

Not to mention the upstream one will be probably be feeding other
circuits and thus have the leakage of those circuits passing through it
as well.

RCD1 -+- Other circuits - 10mA
|
+- RCD2 - 10mA

So RCD1 only has 10mA of head room before it reaches it's rated trip
current but RCD2 has 20mA.

Yup also true. Normal 16th edition TT installs would used a 100mA trip
type S at the top, and then 30mA trip normal RCDs downstream to
circumvent that particular problem.

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/