I know I went down this route a couple of years back for the Mother Of All
Sheds but just thought I'd check back.

Double glazing firm (well respected local firm) wants just over £1,000 to
supply and fit three windows (part of a potentially larger order).
B&Q windows are approximately £129 per window for similar sizes (waiting for
quote for exact sizes).
So potentially say £450 for 3 windows and a couple of general builders on
site building the rest of everything - shouldn't cost £550 in labour to
screw the windows in and run some foam and mastic round.

O.K. don't have the DG firm's warranty but B&Q are liable for quality and
the builders are liable for fitting.
So I don't see any reason to employ the DG company to do this bit.

Is there any reason not to just buy and fit?
And is there a bettter supplier than B&Q for ready made or made to measure
windows?
Oh, and I do find it frustrating that you can't see UPVC windows on the B&Q
website but have to go into the store to discover that they actually sell
the damn things and can also have them made to measure.

Cheers

Dave R

No plan survives contact with the enemy.
[Not even bunny]

Helmuth von Moltke the Elder

(\__/)
(='.'=)
(")_(")

In article , David WE Roberts
writes
I know I went down this route a couple of years back for the Mother Of All
Sheds but just thought I'd check back.

Double glazing firm (well respected local firm) wants just over £1,000 to
supply and fit three windows (part of a potentially larger order).
B&Q windows are approximately £129 per window for similar sizes (waiting for
quote for exact sizes).
So potentially say £450 for 3 windows and a couple of general builders on
site building the rest of everything - shouldn't cost £550 in labour to
screw the windows in and run some foam and mastic round.

O.K. don't have the DG firm's warranty but B&Q are liable for quality and
the builders are liable for fitting.
So I don't see any reason to employ the DG company to do this bit.

Is there any reason not to just buy and fit?
And is there a bettter supplier than B&Q for ready made or made to measure
windows?
Oh, and I do find it frustrating that you can't see UPVC windows on the B&Q
website but have to go into the store to discover that they actually sell
the damn things and can also have them made to measure.

If it's in the home then getting a team in will save some hassle and it
doesn't sound like too much to pay for labour and margin. If it's
another shed then no brainer, DIY.

These guys have been mentioned favourably here in the past but I've no
experience of them as they don't deliver to Scotland:

http://windowsanddoors.co.uk/estimate/

Beware getting a parts estimate there and showing it to a DG contractor,
I've scared a potentially quite good one away by knowing too much about
his margins.
--
fred
it's a ba-na-na . . . .

On Jun 11, 8:14*pm, "David WE Roberts" wrote:
I know I went down this route a couple of years back for the Mother Of All
Sheds but just thought I'd check back.

Double glazing firm (well respected local firm) wants just over £1,000 to
supply and fit three windows (part of a potentially larger order).
B&Q windows are approximately £129 per window for similar sizes (waiting for
quote for exact sizes).
So potentially say £450 for 3 windows and a couple of general builders on
site building the rest of everything - shouldn't cost £550 in labour to
screw the windows in and run some foam and mastic round.

O.K. don't have the DG firm's warranty but B&Q are liable for quality and
the builders are liable for fitting.
So I don't see any reason to employ the DG company to do this bit.

Is there any reason not to just buy and fit?
And is there a bettter supplier than B&Q for ready made or made to measure
windows?
Oh, and I do find it frustrating that you can't see UPVC windows on the B&Q
website but have to go into the store to discover that they actually sell
the damn things and can also have them made to measure.

Cheers

Dave R

No plan survives contact with the enemy.
[Not even bunny]

Helmuth von Moltke the Elder

(\__/)
(='.'=)
(")_(")

I had a house done completely by a good local firm and could have
kicked myself when I saw how easy it was (i.e. how much I spent for
their boys to fit them rather than doing it myself).

Since then, I've fitted a few casement windows myself, proving it's
not rocket science, just a matter of getting everything straight and
square (so far as possible). Assuming the frames fit OK, the only
thing a warranty would cover would be leaking dg units (i.e.
condensation in the panes). At a push, these are cheap enough that
replacing them is trivial should one fail and hardly worth arguing
about the original warranty for, if it's a few years down the line.

Now I need to do some dg sash windows. That should be fun as they are
a bit more delicate to fit but the cost difference is probably greater
(£200-300 for DIY vs ~£1000 for a local firm to fit).

Of course, if you DIY, you'd have to get a BCO to come and certify it,
assuming you feel the need, whereas a FENSA installer will certify it
themselves.

There are plenty of places to get them. I've normally been to Wickes
for regular casements, but often local glazing firms can supply made
to measure, and there are online suppliers too

On Jun 11, 8:14*pm, "David WE Roberts" wrote:
I know I went down this route a couple of years back for the Mother Of All
Sheds but just thought I'd check back.

Double glazing firm (well respected local firm) wants just over £1,000 to
supply and fit three windows (part of a potentially larger order).
B&Q windows are approximately £129 per window for similar sizes (waiting for
quote for exact sizes).
So potentially say £450 for 3 windows and a couple of general builders on
site building the rest of everything - shouldn't cost £550 in labour to
screw the windows in and run some foam and mastic round.

O.K. don't have the DG firm's warranty but B&Q are liable for quality and
the builders are liable for fitting.
So I don't see any reason to employ the DG company to do this bit.

Is there any reason not to just buy and fit?
And is there a bettter supplier than B&Q for ready made or made to measure
windows?
Oh, and I do find it frustrating that you can't see UPVC windows on the B&Q
website but have to go into the store to discover that they actually sell
the damn things and can also have them made to measure.


I bought and fitted all my own.
Small ones are dead easy.
Doors are more difficult.
Double doors are very difficult.

The difficulty revolves around installing them so they are absolutely
flat and undistorted by the fixing screws. All the packing has to be
dead right,
If you get it wrong the locks/catches don't work properly and you get
air leaks and they are stiff.

You need to put packing in the glazing to prevent the doors from
"dropping". The glass stiffens the frames. (Which are quite weak).
If you get it wrong, the door droops and catches on the frame.

You need to find the technique for putting the beads in for your door/
window (they vary slightly)
There are lots of adjustments on the catches and hinges.

"fred" wrote in message ...
In article , David WE Roberts
writes
I know I went down this route a couple of years back for the Mother Of All
Sheds but just thought I'd check back.

Double glazing firm (well respected local firm) wants just over £1,000 to
supply and fit three windows (part of a potentially larger order).
B&Q windows are approximately £129 per window for similar sizes (waiting
for
quote for exact sizes).
So potentially say £450 for 3 windows and a couple of general builders on
site building the rest of everything - shouldn't cost £550 in labour to
screw the windows in and run some foam and mastic round.

O.K. don't have the DG firm's warranty but B&Q are liable for quality and
the builders are liable for fitting.
So I don't see any reason to employ the DG company to do this bit.

Is there any reason not to just buy and fit?
And is there a bettter supplier than B&Q for ready made or made to measure
windows?
Oh, and I do find it frustrating that you can't see UPVC windows on the
B&Q
website but have to go into the store to discover that they actually sell
the damn things and can also have them made to measure.

If it's in the home then getting a team in will save some hassle and it
doesn't sound like too much to pay for labour and margin. If it's another
shed then no brainer, DIY.

These guys have been mentioned favourably here in the past but I've no
experience of them as they don't deliver to Scotland:

http://windowsanddoors.co.uk/estimate/

Beware getting a parts estimate there and showing it to a DG contractor,
I've scared a potentially quite good one away by knowing too much about
his margins.


Thanks - very useful looking site.
As I will have builders in making the new window openings I think I will
source the windows myself and get the builders to fit them.
Having done two in the shed, it isn't rocket science and I have loads of
spacers and packers left.
For the bifold doors I will get the pros in because they are much more
difficult and I want someone who will come back and adjust as part of their
regular business.

--
No plan survives contact with the enemy.
[Not even bunny]

Helmuth von Moltke the Elder

(\__/)
(='.'=)
(")_(")

In article ,
David WE Roberts wrote:
Is there any reason not to just buy and fit? And is there a bettter
supplier than B&Q for ready made or made to measure windows?

I've fitted myself two UPVC windows and patio doors from Screwfix - at the
time I bought them they only did stock sizes. Which suited my application.
Been very pleased with them.

As regards quotes from DG firms, I'm told you never accept the first quote.

--
*Time is the best teacher; unfortunately it kills all its students.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 12/06/2012 09:39, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In ,
David WE wrote:
Is there any reason not to just buy and fit? And is there a bettter
supplier than B&Q for ready made or made to measure windows?
I've fitted myself two UPVC windows and patio doors from Screwfix - at the
time I bought them they only did stock sizes. Which suited my application.
Been very pleased with them.

As regards quotes from DG firms, I'm told you never accept the first quote.

Double glazing firms are as different as a man in a shed making a kit
car to the likes of BMW with all the research and development they have.

The big mistake people make is thinking that the product and expected
support is the same. So the maxim don't take the first quote is like
saying I really wanted a BMW 3 series so I got a good deal and the man
said it was the same. look I got a bubble car made in china.

Don't take the first quote from a company but haggle and stick with the
same company. otherwise you are not getting a better price you are
getting something different.

I know because i was in the business for 7 years. The sad stories I
have been told by disappointed victims.

Gary

In article ,
Gary wrote:
As regards quotes from DG firms, I'm told you never accept the first quote.

Double glazing firms are as different as a man in a shed making a kit
car to the likes of BMW with all the research and development they have.

Since I've owned several BMWs, not a good comparison. They are perhaps the
most troublesome 'quality' cars sold. ;-)

The big mistake people make is thinking that the product and expected
support is the same.

I've not needed any 'support' on my Screwfix ones. They are as good as the
day I fitted them.

So the maxim don't take the first quote is like
saying I really wanted a BMW 3 series so I got a good deal and the man
said it was the same. look I got a bubble car made in china.

I thought it was obvious I was talking about the same product from the
same company?

Don't take the first quote from a company but haggle and stick with the
same company. otherwise you are not getting a better price you are
getting something different.

I'd say that obvious.

I know because i was in the business for 7 years. The sad stories I
have been told by disappointed victims.

Many of the problems seem to be caused by poor installation. And it
proving difficult to get this rectified.

--
*The statement above is false

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Gary wrote:
As regards quotes from DG firms, I'm told you never accept the first
quote.

Double glazing firms are as different as a man in a shed making a kit
car to the likes of BMW with all the research and development they have.

Since I've owned several BMWs, not a good comparison. They are perhaps the
most troublesome 'quality' cars sold. ;-)

The big mistake people make is thinking that the product and expected
support is the same.

I've not needed any 'support' on my Screwfix ones. They are as good as the
day I fitted them.

So the maxim don't take the first quote is like
saying I really wanted a BMW 3 series so I got a good deal and the man
said it was the same. look I got a bubble car made in china.

I thought it was obvious I was talking about the same product from the
same company?

Don't take the first quote from a company but haggle and stick with the
same company. otherwise you are not getting a better price you are
getting something different.

I'd say that obvious.

I know because i was in the business for 7 years. The sad stories I
have been told by disappointed victims.

Many of the problems seem to be caused by poor installation. And it
proving difficult to get this rectified.


One thing I've noted.
National chains seem to offer reasonable quality windows but the
installation is a lottery.
Guy just up the road insists on going with national chains but has always
had to call them back at least once to rectify installation faults.

--
No plan survives contact with the enemy.
[Not even bunny]

Helmuth von Moltke the Elder

(\__/)
(='.'=)
(")_(")

In article ,
David WE Roberts wrote:
One thing I've noted.
National chains seem to offer reasonable quality windows but the
installation is a lottery.

Yes. The windows being machine made should be consistent.

Guy just up the road insists on going with national chains but has
always had to call them back at least once to rectify installation
faults.

Quite. Another reason to DIY. It's not difficult - although you'll likely
need help for lifting and holding things, etc.

--
*I am a nobody, and nobody is perfect; therefore I am perfect*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 12/06/2012 10:58, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In ,
wrote:
As regards quotes from DG firms, I'm told you never accept the first quote.

Double glazing firms are as different as a man in a shed making a kit
car to the likes of BMW with all the research and development they have.
Since I've owned several BMWs, not a good comparison. They are perhaps the
most troublesome 'quality' cars sold. ;-)

The big mistake people make is thinking that the product and expected
support is the same.
I've not needed any 'support' on my Screwfix ones. They are as good as the
day I fitted them.

So the maxim don't take the first quote is like
saying I really wanted a BMW 3 series so I got a good deal and the man
said it was the same. look I got a bubble car made in china.
I thought it was obvious I was talking about the same product from the
same company?

Don't take the first quote from a company but haggle and stick with the
same company. otherwise you are not getting a better price you are
getting something different.
I'd say that obvious.

I know because i was in the business for 7 years. The sad stories I
have been told by disappointed victims.
Many of the problems seem to be caused by poor installation. And it
proving difficult to get this rectified.

My reply was because I saw many punters that had mistaken that advise.

They would get a quote from a big company then a quote from a local
cowboy and it would be maybe a 3rd of the big company's price..

Then when 2 years later the windows had buckled and leaked and changed
colour they would realise that not all window suppliers are the same
and not all windows are the same.

The hard part is convincing the first time buyer . they think all
plastic windows are identical and the price difference is just
profiteering.

A point about the fitting is that most punters have not got the ability
to DIY and the need to have a company that will come back if the fitting
is not good is important.

The people I felt MOST sorry for were the ones that had a local cowboy
supply and the quote from that cowboy was only just lower than the big
boys. That customer was ripped off.

The people that bought cheep and got cheep, they got what they deserved.

Gary

The hard part is convincing the first time buyer . they think all
plastic windows are identical and the price difference is just
profiteering.


A point of view it's hard to disagree with

In article ,
Gary wrote:
Many of the problems seem to be caused by poor installation. And it
proving difficult to get this rectified.

My reply was because I saw many punters that had mistaken that advise.

They would get a quote from a big company then a quote from a local
cowboy and it would be maybe a 3rd of the big company's price..

At least some of the 'big companies' could be described as cowboys.
Quoting one price initially (always including a vast discount) then
reducing it if the client doesn't bite first time. And again.

A local company which was a cowboy simply wouldn't last - so look for one
which has been in business for some time.

Then when 2 years later the windows had buckled and leaked and changed
colour they would realise that not all window suppliers are the same
and not all windows are the same.

The hard part is convincing the first time buyer . they think all
plastic windows are identical and the price difference is just
profiteering.

A salesman will always try and convince a customer his product is the
best.

A point about the fitting is that most punters have not got the ability
to DIY and the need to have a company that will come back if the fitting
is not good is important.

Perhaps you've not noticed, but this is a DIY group. Fitting new windows
is well within the capabilities of many here - I did it simply by
following the instructions. And although a keen DIYer, I'd never done
anything similar before. And by taking care, have results superior to
those installed next door by one of your 'big companies' that advertise
nationally. The actual product appears better made too.

The people I felt MOST sorry for were the ones that had a local cowboy
supply and the quote from that cowboy was only just lower than the big
boys. That customer was ripped off.

Really? Have you researched all of this to come to such a broad
conclusion? It's at odds with what I've read elsewhere. Generally, a
*decent* local firm gives better service and results than a national.

The people that bought cheep and got cheep, they got what they
deserved.

Birds don't need DG. ;-)

--
*Never underestimate the power of very stupid people in large groups *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Wed, 13 Jun 2012 09:25:07 +0100, Gary wrote:

The hard part is convincing the first time buyer . they think all
plastic windows are identical and the price difference is just
profiteering.

In the case of Everest and Anglian I feel that it is, not to mention
the extremely hard sell that those companies use. Going with a
smaller established local firm, almost certainly get a better job for
less money at the end of the day. I speak from direct experience of
both.

A point about the fitting is that most punters have not got the ability
to DIY and the need to have a company that will come back if the fitting
is not good is important.

A small company will come back they have their local reputation to
protect. Mind you a small company will also make damn sure they don't
have to come back as it eats into their profit margins. Anglian is
run as a collection of franchises, part of my (bitter) experience was
that head office didn't care at tinker cuss about the problems we had
with an installation. It's says something when that franchise had to
employ, full time, a team of fitters going around correcting
installation problems. I don't think any of the windows that Anglian
installed were done without a fault for some sort, from displaced
seals to missing frame sealing. Not to mention the mess they left
inside and out, bits of old frame and broken glass, discarded sealant
tubes, no attempt to cover interior carpets or clean up afterwards.

After the small local firm had been all you could see was the changed
windows, no mess, cleaned and tidy inside and out. They weren't
faultless, two or three things over a similar number of windows, but
a damn sight better than Anglian.

The people that bought cheep and got cheep, they got what they deserved.

Who did you work for and in what position?

--
Cheers
Dave.

In article ,
stuart noble wrote:

The hard part is convincing the first time buyer . they think all
plastic windows are identical and the price difference is just
profiteering.


A point of view it's hard to disagree with


Really? If you simply look at an older street where many houses have had
DG fitted, it's rather obvious the windows ain't identical.

--
*A person who smiles in the face of adversity probably has a scapegoat *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Wed, 13 Jun 2012 10:49:23 +0100, stuart noble wrote:

The hard part is convincing the first time buyer . they think all
plastic windows are identical and the price difference is just
profiteering.

A point of view it's hard to disagree with

There aren't that many manufacturers of the profiles used to make the
frames etc. Yes there is some variation but not as much as "Gary" is
making out IMHO. Similar with the sealed units, only a few actual
manufacturers out there.

Most reasonably sized places will have a company that buys in the
profiles and has the machinery to make the frames. They may well have
their own sale/installation service as well as providing frames for
smaller local DG companies and builders. A bit of local research and
question asking will find all this out for a given locality.

--
Cheers
Dave.

In message , David WE Roberts
writes

Is there any reason not to just buy and fit?
And is there a bettter supplier than B&Q for ready made or made to
measure windows?

As long as the installation meets Building Regulations or you get a
FENSA certificate.

--
Ilene

On 13/06/2012 11:19, Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Wed, 13 Jun 2012 10:49:23 +0100, stuart noble wrote:

The hard part is convincing the first time buyer . they think all
plastic windows are identical and the price difference is just
profiteering.

A point of view it's hard to disagree with

There aren't that many manufacturers of the profiles used to make the
frames etc. Yes there is some variation but not as much as "Gary" is
making out IMHO. Similar with the sealed units, only a few actual
manufacturers out there.

Exactly

Most reasonably sized places will have a company that buys in the
profiles and has the machinery to make the frames. They may well have
their own sale/installation service as well as providing frames for
smaller local DG companies and builders. A bit of local research and
question asking will find all this out for a given locality.


The two local firms round here stopped making their own frames a few
years ago.

On Wednesday, June 13, 2012 11:08:16 AM UTC+1, Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Wed, 13 Jun 2012 09:25:07 +0100, Gary wrote:

The hard part is convincing the first time buyer . they think all
plastic windows are identical and the price difference is just
profiteering.

In the case of Everest and Anglian I feel that it is, not to mention
the extremely hard sell that those companies use.

I've had quotes from both and Anglian were far more hard sell, then even tried to get me to sign to have them done and when I said "you came to give me a free quote" and I pointed to my webcam recording him droppijng his window on my carpet and saying loko it didn;t break other windows would ours are the best" he picked up his demo stuff and left pretty sharpish.

Going with a
smaller established local firm, almost certainly get a better job for
less money at the end of the day. I speak from direct experience of
both.

I would have believed that but I could actually find a local firm one I did try missed two measuring appointments so gave up on them. Went wih everest in the expensive but low on hassle.


A point about the fitting is that most punters have not got the ability
to DIY and the need to have a company that will come back if the fitting
is not good is important.

A small company will come back they have their local reputation to
protect.

Trouble is with a small company what can you do about it, go to a solicitor ?


Mind you a small company will also make damn sure they don't
have to come back as it eats into their profit margins.

Or they just might not come back.

Anglian is
run as a collection of franchises, part of my (bitter) experience was
that head office didn't care at tinker cuss about the problems we had
with an installation. It's says something when that franchise had to
employ, full time, a team of fitters going around correcting
installation problems. I don't think any of the windows that Anglian
installed were done without a fault for some sort, from displaced
seals to missing frame sealing. Not to mention the mess they left
inside and out, bits of old frame and broken glass, discarded sealant
tubes, no attempt to cover interior carpets or clean up afterwards.

Eversest were good like that, it costs, but I didn't even need to 'dyson' after they left and they took all old bits with them.



After the small local firm had been all you could see was the changed
windows, no mess, cleaned and tidy inside and out. They weren't
faultless, two or three things over a similar number of windows, but
a damn sight better than Anglian.

The people that bought cheep and got cheep, they got what they deserved..

Who did you work for and in what position?

--
Cheers
Dave.

On 13/06/2012 11:07, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In ,
wrote:
Many of the problems seem to be caused by poor installation. And it
proving difficult to get this rectified.

My reply was because I saw many punters that had mistaken that advise.
They would get a quote from a big company then a quote from a local
cowboy and it would be maybe a 3rd of the big company's price..
At least some of the 'big companies' could be described as cowboys.
Quoting one price initially (always including a vast discount) then
reducing it if the client doesn't bite first time. And again.

A local company which was a cowboy simply wouldn't last - so look for one
which has been in business for some time.

Then when 2 years later the windows had buckled and leaked and changed
colour they would realise that not all window suppliers are the same
and not all windows are the same.
The hard part is convincing the first time buyer . they think all
plastic windows are identical and the price difference is just
profiteering.
A salesman will always try and convince a customer his product is the
best.

A point about the fitting is that most punters have not got the ability
to DIY and the need to have a company that will come back if the fitting
is not good is important.
Perhaps you've not noticed, but this is a DIY group. Fitting new windows
is well within the capabilities of many here - I did it simply by
following the instructions. And although a keen DIYer, I'd never done
anything similar before. And by taking care, have results superior to
those installed next door by one of your 'big companies' that advertise
nationally. The actual product appears better made too.

The people I felt MOST sorry for were the ones that had a local cowboy
supply and the quote from that cowboy was only just lower than the big
boys. That customer was ripped off.
Really? Have you researched all of this to come to such a broad
conclusion? It's at odds with what I've read elsewhere. Generally, a
*decent* local firm gives better service and results than a national.

The people that bought cheep and got cheep, they got what they
deserved.
Birds don't need DG. ;-)

but they 'crow about it' ;-)

I saw a door with safety glass. a dead bird and a small cone of missing
glass in a patio door. the door looked like it had been shot. I think
it was a large blackbird.

On 13/06/2012 11:08, Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Wed, 13 Jun 2012 09:25:07 +0100, Gary wrote:

The hard part is convincing the first time buyer . they think all
plastic windows are identical and the price difference is just
profiteering.
In the case of Everest and Anglian I feel that it is, not to mention
the extremely hard sell that those companies use. Going with a
smaller established local firm, almost certainly get a better job for
less money at the end of the day. I speak from direct experience of
both.

A point about the fitting is that most punters have not got the ability
to DIY and the need to have a company that will come back if the fitting
is not good is important.
A small company will come back they have their local reputation to
protect. Mind you a small company will also make damn sure they don't
have to come back as it eats into their profit margins. Anglian is
run as a collection of franchises, part of my (bitter) experience was
that head office didn't care at tinker cuss about the problems we had
with an installation. It's says something when that franchise had to
employ, full time, a team of fitters going around correcting
installation problems. I don't think any of the windows that Anglian
installed were done without a fault for some sort, from displaced
seals to missing frame sealing. Not to mention the mess they left
inside and out, bits of old frame and broken glass, discarded sealant
tubes, no attempt to cover interior carpets or clean up afterwards.

After the small local firm had been all you could see was the changed
windows, no mess, cleaned and tidy inside and out. They weren't
faultless, two or three things over a similar number of windows, but
a damn sight better than Anglian.

The people that bought cheep and got cheep, they got what they deserved.
Who did you work for and in what position?

Small firms go and just disappear. the amount that do that is amazing.
But as you say a GOOD firm will be GOOD. but how to tell. That is why DG
has a bad name it is not the companies that stick around, it is the ones
that just disappear with the warranties.