Not sure if many are aware of the detailed test carried out by a US
woodworking magazine ...


I spend a fair amount of money buying quite expensive Polyurethane glue,
and while it is still my first choice for fast setting glue .... esp for
mitres & plugs ... I was surprised that Gorilla glue came out the worst
in the test for strength.

It may be gap filling and fast setting, but so is jelly.

PVA type 1 came out the best

I have loaded the full report here ..


http://www.mediafire.com/?p0hlovbg4sdvdn7

On Feb 22, 8:31 pm, Rick wrote:
Not sure if many are aware of the detailed test carried out by a US
woodworking magazine ...

I spend a fair amount of money buying quite expensive Polyurethane glue,
and while it is still my first choice for fast setting glue .... esp for
mitres & plugs ... I was surprised that Gorilla glue came out the worst
in the test for strength.

It may be gap filling and fast setting, but so is jelly.

PVA type 1 came out the best

I have loaded the full report here ..

http://www.mediafire.com/?p0hlovbg4sdvdn7

interesting especially how all the glues did well with Ipe which was
chosen for testing because of its alleged "difficulty" being glued?

Jim K

On 22/02/2012 8:40 PM, Jim K wrote:


interesting especially how all the glues did well with Ipe which was
chosen for testing because of its alleged "difficulty" being glued?

Jim K


Not a wood I have ever come across

On Feb 22, 8:31*pm, Rick wrote:
Not sure if many are aware of the detailed test carried out by a US
woodworking magazine ...

I spend a fair amount of money buying quite expensive Polyurethane glue,
and while it is still my first choice for fast setting glue .... esp for
mitres & plugs ... I was surprised that Gorilla glue came out the worst
in the test for strength.

It may be gap filling and fast setting, but so is jelly.

PVA type 1 came out the best

I have loaded the full report here ..

http://www.mediafire.com/?p0hlovbg4sdvdn7

At the very highest it was pop-science as between brands/formulations
on test.

And, even then, you can't extrapolate beyond the particular brands/
formulations on test.

On Feb 22, 8:31*pm, Rick wrote:
Not sure if many are aware of the detailed test carried out by a US
woodworking magazine ...

I spend a fair amount of money buying quite expensive Polyurethane glue,
and while it is still my first choice for fast setting glue .... esp for
mitres & plugs ... I was surprised that Gorilla glue came out the worst
in the test for strength.

It may be gap filling and fast setting, but so is jelly.

PVA type 1 came out the best

I have loaded the full report here ..

http://www.mediafire.com/?p0hlovbg4sdvdn7

Epoxy is used for joints where failure could cause injury, not only
because of its strength under ideal conditions, but because it stays
strong when wet. PVA can fail when wet.


NT

On Wed, 22 Feb 2012 20:31:28 +0000, Rick
wrote:

Not sure if many are aware of the detailed test carried out by a US
woodworking magazine ...


I spend a fair amount of money buying quite expensive Polyurethane glue,
and while it is still my first choice for fast setting glue .... esp for
mitres & plugs ... I was surprised that Gorilla glue came out the worst
in the test for strength.

It may be gap filling and fast setting, but so is jelly.

PVA type 1 came out the best

I have loaded the full report here ..


http://www.mediafire.com/?p0hlovbg4sdvdn7


We have gorilla glue that's pretty fab for lots of things.
--
http://www.voucherfreebies.co.uk

Bolted wrote:
On Feb 22, 8:31 pm, Rick wrote:
Not sure if many are aware of the detailed test carried out by a US
woodworking magazine ...

I spend a fair amount of money buying quite expensive Polyurethane glue,
and while it is still my first choice for fast setting glue .... esp for
mitres & plugs ... I was surprised that Gorilla glue came out the worst
in the test for strength.

It may be gap filling and fast setting, but so is jelly.

PVA type 1 came out the best

I have loaded the full report here ..

http://www.mediafire.com/?p0hlovbg4sdvdn7

At the very highest it was pop-science as between brands/formulations
on test.

And, even then, you can't extrapolate beyond the particular brands/
formulations on test.

I think you can. PVA is PVA and doesn't vary greatly between generic
'white' brands and generic 'aliphatic;' or yellow brands.

It also echoes my experience making models..ultimately cheap white PVA
has proved better than anything - epoxy, or superglue or foaming poly -
for ultimate strength.

With hot glue being a surprisingly GOOD thing - much better than expected.

NT wrote:
On Feb 22, 8:31 pm, Rick wrote:
Not sure if many are aware of the detailed test carried out by a US
woodworking magazine ...

I spend a fair amount of money buying quite expensive Polyurethane glue,
and while it is still my first choice for fast setting glue .... esp for
mitres & plugs ... I was surprised that Gorilla glue came out the worst
in the test for strength.

It may be gap filling and fast setting, but so is jelly.

PVA type 1 came out the best

I have loaded the full report here ..

http://www.mediafire.com/?p0hlovbg4sdvdn7

Epoxy is used for joints where failure could cause injury, not only
because of its strength under ideal conditions, but because it stays
strong when wet. PVA can fail when wet.


Epoxy does not actually work that well on wood. It tends to grab te
surface layer only, and not penetrate into the wood like a solvent or
water based glue does.

it fails not by breaking itself, but by tearing off the wood surface.

If you heat it till its runny and/or apply pressure, its a bit better.

I use it extensively to bond wire undercarriages to ply formers. Covered
with a later of glass cloth impregnated with epoxy. usually heated with
a heat gun and then covered in a polythene sheet with modelling clay
used to apply uniform pressure for a few minutes till its set.

Even so it is in the limit possible to tear the whole thing off the wood
without breaking the wood..fibres of the wood come off with it.



NT

On 23/02/2012 12:17 AM, Bolted wrote:

At the very highest it was pop-science as between brands/formulations
on test.



That is a bit unfair .. it was far more scientific than any other DIY
test I have seen on glues.

On 23/02/2012 8:54 AM, mogga wrote:
On Wed, 22 Feb 2012 20:31:28 +0000, Rick
wrote:

Not sure if many are aware of the detailed test carried out by a US
woodworking magazine ...


I spend a fair amount of money buying quite expensive Polyurethane glue,
and while it is still my first choice for fast setting glue .... esp for
mitres& plugs ... I was surprised that Gorilla glue came out the worst
in the test for strength.

It may be gap filling and fast setting, but so is jelly.

PVA type 1 came out the best

I have loaded the full report here ..


http://www.mediafire.com/?p0hlovbg4sdvdn7


We have gorilla glue that's pretty fab for lots of things.


didn't do well in the tests .. came out bottom

On Feb 23, 11:26*am, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:
Bolted wrote:
On Feb 22, 8:31 pm, Rick wrote:
Not sure if many are aware of the detailed test carried out by a US
woodworking magazine ...

I spend a fair amount of money buying quite expensive Polyurethane glue,
and while it is still my first choice for fast setting glue .... esp for
mitres & plugs ... I was surprised that Gorilla glue came out the worst
in the test for strength.

It may be gap filling and fast setting, but so is jelly.

PVA type 1 came out the best

I have loaded the full report here ..

http://www.mediafire.com/?p0hlovbg4sdvdn7

At the very highest it was pop-science as between brands/formulations
on test.

And, even then, you can't extrapolate beyond the particular brands/
formulations on test.

I think you can. PVA is PVA and doesn't vary greatly between generic
'white' brands and generic 'aliphatic;' or yellow brands.

The irony being that that the one distinction you draw is the most
meaningless marketing bull****. Much more meaningful is whether it is
a cross-linking PVA (D3 or D4) or not, not whether it has some yellow
dye in it and extra tackifier resins.

But generally, I'm not going to disagree much with you over decent
quality PVAs with or without yellow dye.

But polys and epoxies vary very much more as between each other.

On Feb 23, 11:02*pm, Rick wrote:
On 23/02/2012 12:17 AM, Bolted wrote:

At the very highest it was pop-science as between brands/formulations
on test.

That is a bit unfair .. it was far more scientific than any other DIY
test I have seen on glues.

From a very low base point, you may well be correct, but that doesn't
make my observation wrong. Are you claiming it was worthy of a
journal?

On Feb 22, 8:31*pm, Rick wrote:
Not sure if many are aware of the detailed test carried out by a US
woodworking magazine ...

I spend a fair amount of money buying quite expensive Polyurethane glue,
and while it is still my first choice for fast setting glue .... esp for
mitres & plugs ... I was surprised that Gorilla glue came out the worst
in the test for strength.

It may be gap filling and fast setting, but so is jelly.

PVA type 1 came out the best

I have loaded the full report here ..

http://www.mediafire.com/?p0hlovbg4sdvdn7

The review is very much from a furniture POV, doesn't consider
waterproofness and only instantaneous high-load failure, not slow
fatiguing.

Pity they didn't review a cascamite type glue alongside them.

I was also taught, that polyurethane especially needs a high clamping
pressure to produce a high-strength joint. i.e. any of the glue that
foams is lousy for strength.

On Thu, 23 Feb 2012 23:04:24 +0000, Rick
wrote:

We have gorilla glue that's pretty fab for lots of things.


didn't do well in the tests .. came out bottom

Ugghh.. chewy..

I'd imagine it has negligible fibre content.

On 24/02/2012 12:41 PM, wrote:

Pity they didn't review a cascamite type glue alongside them.

I was also taught, that polyurethane especially needs a high clamping
pressure to produce a high-strength joint. i.e. any of the glue that
foams is lousy for strength.

I have used Cascamite myself .. found it a damn good glue ... seems to
have dropped out of favour.
I have horses in filed next door .. maybe I should boil up some hoof
glue :-)

Rick wrote:
On 24/02/2012 12:41 PM, wrote:

Pity they didn't review a cascamite type glue alongside them.

I was also taught, that polyurethane especially needs a high clamping
pressure to produce a high-strength joint. i.e. any of the glue that
foams is lousy for strength.

I have used Cascamite myself .. found it a damn good glue ... seems to
have dropped out of favour.
I have horses in filed next door

I am trying to work out what that means..they are in serried ranks? Or
filing cabinets?


... maybe I should boil up some hoof
glue :-)

An editor might be an investment.

Anyway, do remove the hoof first.

On 23/02/2012 23:54, Bolted wrote:
On Feb 23, 11:02 pm, wrote:
On 23/02/2012 12:17 AM, Bolted wrote:

At the very highest it was pop-science as between brands/formulations
on test.

That is a bit unfair .. it was far more scientific than any other DIY
test I have seen on glues.

From a very low base point, you may well be correct, but that doesn't
make my observation wrong. Are you claiming it was worthy of a
journal?

Since it was supposed to be useful guidance for woodworkers, and not
masturbatory stimulus for materials scientists, it did a fair job, and
gave a fair amount of practical advice on usage along the way.

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
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|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 24/02/2012 13:41, Tim Watts wrote:
wrote:

On Feb 22, 8:31 pm, wrote:
Not sure if many are aware of the detailed test carried out by a US
woodworking magazine ...

I spend a fair amount of money buying quite expensive Polyurethane glue,
and while it is still my first choice for fast setting glue .... esp for
mitres& plugs ... I was surprised that Gorilla glue came out the worst
in the test for strength.

It may be gap filling and fast setting, but so is jelly.

PVA type 1 came out the best

I have loaded the full report here ..

http://www.mediafire.com/?p0hlovbg4sdvdn7

The review is very much from a furniture POV, doesn't consider
waterproofness and only instantaneous high-load failure, not slow
fatiguing.

Pity they didn't review a cascamite type glue alongside them.

I was also taught, that polyurethane especially needs a high clamping
pressure to produce a high-strength joint. i.e. any of the glue that
foams is lousy for strength.

I took the view that for joints with large contact area by poor/irregular
finish, PU was likely to do better than PVA which may end up with a small
effective contact area.

Its a hard call - PU has little strength where the contact is gaped and
foamed, and less strength than the PVA on the good points of contact. If
you really need a gap filling glue for irregular surfaces you are
probably better off with epoxy.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
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|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

John Rumm wrote:


Its a hard call - PU has little strength where the contact is gaped and
foamed, and less strength than the PVA on the good points of contact. If
you really need a gap filling glue for irregular surfaces you are
probably better off with epoxy.

Is there a less expensive source of epoxy by the litre? (less expensive than
lots of tubes of araldite)...

--
Tim Watts

On Feb 24, 9:38*pm, Rick wrote:
On 24/02/2012 12:41 PM, wrote:

Pity they didn't review a cascamite type glue alongside them.

I was also taught, that polyurethane especially needs a high clamping
pressure to produce a high-strength joint. i.e. any of the glue that
foams is lousy for strength.

I have used Cascamite myself .. found it a damn good glue ... seems to
have dropped out of favour.
I have horses in filed next door .. maybe I should boil up some hoof
glue *:-)

It keeps changing its name. Also been marketed as Extramite, and now
as Polmite.

All the same stuff. As they sell it by up-to a 25Kg bag, it must still
be popular.

See: http://www.tooltrolley.co.uk/manufac.../cascamite-62/

It was certainly the most commonly used glue, along with epoxy, when I
was taught traditional wooden boatbuilding a few years ago.

It is slightly less convenient, and perhaps more suited to a
professional joinery set-up, where all the work will be prepped for a
gluing-up session at the end of the day - the cascamite made up in
sufficient quantity - and everything cramped up overnight (and having
a rack of dozens of g-clamps is the norm).

Another poster was asking about alternatives to tubes of Araldite -
West Systems epoxy is, in the UK, almost used to the exclusion of all
other epoxies in boatbuilding.

Not cheap to get started with West Systems, but if your usage
justifies the initial costs, the rolling costs probably aren't too
bad.

http://www.wessex-resins.com/westsystem/

Tim Watts wrote:
John Rumm wrote:


Its a hard call - PU has little strength where the contact is gaped and
foamed, and less strength than the PVA on the good points of contact. If
you really need a gap filling glue for irregular surfaces you are
probably better off with epoxy.

Is there a less expensive source of epoxy by the litre? (less expensive than
lots of tubes of araldite)...

well use polyester then - a.k.a. car body filler.

On Sat, 25 Feb 2012 03:55:45 +0000, John Rumm
wrote:

Its a hard call - PU has little strength where the contact is gaped and
foamed,

Not from what I've seen. PU foam has great sticking power over a wide
area, so for bunging insulation panels onto flat walls it just the
job, as they're not under great mechanical stress.
The makers also produce a low-expansion foam glue for exactly that,
but I've found a thin line from a gun of ordinary yellow foam works
well.

wrote:
On Sat, 25 Feb 2012 03:55:45 +0000, John Rumm
wrote:

Its a hard call - PU has little strength where the contact is gaped and
foamed,

Not from what I've seen. PU foam has great sticking power over a wide
area, so for bunging insulation panels onto flat walls it just the
job, as they're not under great mechanical stress.

That actually proves his point. It's a glue for large, low local stress,
joints.

Like tacking insulation up.


The makers also produce a low-expansion foam glue for exactly that,
but I've found a thin line from a gun of ordinary yellow foam works
well.
It all cracked within weeks when I used it outside.

The Natural Philosopher wrote:

wrote:
On Sat, 25 Feb 2012 03:55:45 +0000, John Rumm
wrote:

Its a hard call - PU has little strength where the contact is gaped and
foamed,

Not from what I've seen. PU foam has great sticking power over a wide
area, so for bunging insulation panels onto flat walls it just the
job, as they're not under great mechanical stress.

That actually proves his point. It's a glue for large, low local stress,
joints.

Like tacking insulation up.

In my case it was 75% area coverage on 11" x 8' ply sheets screwed to the
sides of double stacked joists (2 lots of 4x2") to stiffen them up.

I'd have loved to use epoxy, but it would have taken several pints worth -
and as I have about 60 screws per sheet, the glue was just an auxillary
mechanism.


The makers also produce a low-expansion foam glue for exactly that,
but I've found a thin line from a gun of ordinary yellow foam works
well.
It all cracked within weeks when I used it outside.


--
Tim Watts

On Feb 24, 10:02 pm, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:
Rick wrote:
On 24/02/2012 12:41 PM, wrote:

Pity they didn't review a cascamite type glue alongside them.

I was also taught, that polyurethane especially needs a high clamping
pressure to produce a high-strength joint. i.e. any of the glue that
foams is lousy for strength.

I have used Cascamite myself .. found it a damn good glue ... seems to
have dropped out of favour.
I have horses in filed next door

I am trying to work out what that means..they are in serried ranks? Or
filing cabinets?

.. maybe I should boil up some hoof

glue :-)

An editor might be an investment.

Kinell !! you of all people need an editor/new specs FFS

Jim K

Jim K wrote:
On Feb 24, 10:02 pm, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:
Rick wrote:
On 24/02/2012 12:41 PM, wrote:
Pity they didn't review a cascamite type glue alongside them.
I was also taught, that polyurethane especially needs a high clamping
pressure to produce a high-strength joint. i.e. any of the glue that
foams is lousy for strength.
I have used Cascamite myself .. found it a damn good glue ... seems to
have dropped out of favour.
I have horses in filed next door
I am trying to work out what that means..they are in serried ranks? Or
filing cabinets?

.. maybe I should boil up some hoof

glue :-)
An editor might be an investment.

Kinell !! you of all people need an editor/new specs FFS


I bought the new specs yesterday.


Jim K

On Feb 25, 3:51*am, John Rumm wrote:
On 23/02/2012 23:54, Bolted wrote:

On Feb 23, 11:02 pm, *wrote:
On 23/02/2012 12:17 AM, Bolted wrote:

At the very highest it was pop-science as between brands/formulations
on test.

That is a bit unfair .. it was far more scientific than any other DIY
test I have seen on glues.

*From a very low base point, you may well be correct, but that doesn't
make my observation wrong. *Are you claiming it was worthy of a
journal?

Since it was supposed to be useful guidance for woodworkers, and not
masturbatory stimulus for materials scientists, it did a fair job, and
gave a fair amount of practical advice on usage along the way.

I think you are agreeing that it was pop-science at best. You
certainly do not say anything which is inconsistent with that.

On Sat, 25 Feb 2012 13:05:58 +0000, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

Its a hard call - PU has little strength where the contact is gaped and
foamed,

Not from what I've seen. PU foam has great sticking power over a wide
area, so for bunging insulation panels onto flat walls it just the
job, as they're not under great mechanical stress.

That actually proves his point. It's a glue for large, low local stress,
joints.

Like tacking insulation up.

In that case, what does he mean by 'gaped and foamed'? Because that's
exactly what I'm talking about. It fills gaps and sticks like ****.


The makers also produce a low-expansion foam glue for exactly that,
but I've found a thin line from a gun of ordinary yellow foam works
well.
It all cracked within weeks when I used it outside.

You're supposed to cover it with paint if it's exposed.

On 25/02/2012 17:31, Bolted wrote:
On Feb 25, 3:51 am, John wrote:
On 23/02/2012 23:54, Bolted wrote:

On Feb 23, 11:02 pm, wrote:
On 23/02/2012 12:17 AM, Bolted wrote:

At the very highest it was pop-science as between brands/formulations
on test.

That is a bit unfair .. it was far more scientific than any other DIY
test I have seen on glues.

From a very low base point, you may well be correct, but that doesn't
make my observation wrong. Are you claiming it was worthy of a
journal?

Since it was supposed to be useful guidance for woodworkers, and not
masturbatory stimulus for materials scientists, it did a fair job, and
gave a fair amount of practical advice on usage along the way.

I think you are agreeing that it was pop-science at best. You
certainly do not say anything which is inconsistent with that.

Perhaps I was reading your comments wrongly, but you appeared to be
denigrating the article... and yet we seem to agree that it was well
suited to its target audience and of less use as a purely academic
study. Surely these are good things?


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
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|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 25/02/2012 12:12, wrote:
On Sat, 25 Feb 2012 03:55:45 +0000, John Rumm
wrote:

Its a hard call - PU has little strength where the contact is gaped and
foamed,

Not from what I've seen. PU foam has great sticking power over a wide
area, so for bunging insulation panels onto flat walls it just the
job, as they're not under great mechanical stress.
The makers also produce a low-expansion foam glue for exactly that,
but I've found a thin line from a gun of ordinary yellow foam works
well.

Yup indeed - good for that application - but to be fair that is a non
critical application that does not demand ultimate bond strength - just
something that sticks like **** to a blanket on irregular surfaces!

A half lap joint or some other cabinet makers joint on the other hand
has a different set of requirements. (note the article was focussed
particularly on furniture making applications)


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
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|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On Feb 25, 9:39*pm, John Rumm wrote:
On 25/02/2012 17:31, Bolted wrote:









On Feb 25, 3:51 am, John *wrote:
On 23/02/2012 23:54, Bolted wrote:

On Feb 23, 11:02 pm, * *wrote:
On 23/02/2012 12:17 AM, Bolted wrote:

At the very highest it was pop-science as between brands/formulations
on test.

That is a bit unfair .. it was far more scientific than any other DIY
test I have seen on glues.

* From a very low base point, you may well be correct, but that doesn't
make my observation wrong. *Are you claiming it was worthy of a
journal?

Since it was supposed to be useful guidance for woodworkers, and not
masturbatory stimulus for materials scientists, it did a fair job, and
gave a fair amount of practical advice on usage along the way.

I think you are agreeing that it was pop-science at best. *You
certainly do not say anything which is inconsistent with that.

Perhaps I was reading your comments wrongly, but you appeared to be
denigrating the article... and yet we seem to agree that it was well
suited to its target audience and of less use as a purely academic
study. Surely these are good things?

I wasn't really denigrating it in and of itself - just saying that it
was so limited in its scope that you can't draw any very useful
conclusions from it, despite all the pseudo-scientific gloss.

On 25/02/2012 22:01, Bolted wrote:
On Feb 25, 9:39 pm, John wrote:
On 25/02/2012 17:31, Bolted wrote:

On Feb 25, 3:51 am, John wrote:
On 23/02/2012 23:54, Bolted wrote:

On Feb 23, 11:02 pm, wrote:
On 23/02/2012 12:17 AM, Bolted wrote:

At the very highest it was pop-science as between brands/formulations
on test.

That is a bit unfair .. it was far more scientific than any other DIY
test I have seen on glues.

From a very low base point, you may well be correct, but that doesn't
make my observation wrong. Are you claiming it was worthy of a
journal?

Since it was supposed to be useful guidance for woodworkers, and not
masturbatory stimulus for materials scientists, it did a fair job, and
gave a fair amount of practical advice on usage along the way.

I think you are agreeing that it was pop-science at best. You
certainly do not say anything which is inconsistent with that.

Perhaps I was reading your comments wrongly, but you appeared to be
denigrating the article... and yet we seem to agree that it was well
suited to its target audience and of less use as a purely academic
study. Surely these are good things?

I wasn't really denigrating it in and of itself - just saying that it
was so limited in its scope that you can't draw any very useful
conclusions from it, despite all the pseudo-scientific gloss.

What makes you say that? How would you have liked the scope to be
different (wider)?



--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
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|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 25/02/2012 21:30, wrote:
On Sat, 25 Feb 2012 13:05:58 +0000, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

Its a hard call - PU has little strength where the contact is gaped and
foamed,

Not from what I've seen. PU foam has great sticking power over a wide
area, so for bunging insulation panels onto flat walls it just the
job, as they're not under great mechanical stress.

That actually proves his point. It's a glue for large, low local stress,
joints.

Like tacking insulation up.

In that case, what does he mean by 'gaped and foamed'? Because that's

He (i.e. me) means in applications like a mortice an tenon joint or a
lap joint or some other part of furniture construction.

(remember this is an article in Fine Woodworking Magazine, and as such
was not analysing the properties of the glues from the point of being
general building or DIY adhesives, but was looking specifically from the
wood working perspective)

exactly what I'm talking about. It fills gaps and sticks like ****.

Indeed - ideal for sticking sheets of low density insulation to an
irregular surface well enough that they won't fall off. A very different
requirement from a "stronger than wood" bond in a joint.



--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
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\================================================= ================/