How would one go about deliberately rusting a sheet of cold rolled
steel?

My daughter has decided that the *must have* fireproof hearth under her
new log burner should be a rusted sheet of steel she saw lying about the
farmyard. Unfortunately it is not quite big enough and extending it by
welding is likely to cause buckling and discolouration.

I can purchase sheet steel from our agricultural merchant but it is
likely they will have tried hard to prevent rusting in store.

Presumably a detergent to remove any oil followed by??

I have spent battery acid, brick cleaner, hypochlorite (sp) bleach plus
the usual domestic cleaning products.

regards
--
Tim Lamb

Tim Lamb wrote:

How would one go about deliberately rusting a sheet of cold rolled steel?
Presumably a detergent to remove any oil followed by??

Degrease it (fairly liquid, squirt of brake cleaner) and throw it
outside. Shouldn't take long.

--
Scott

Where are we going and why am I in this handbasket?

"Tim Lamb" wrote in message
...
How would one go about deliberately rusting a sheet of cold rolled steel?

My daughter has decided that the *must have* fireproof hearth under her
new log burner should be a rusted sheet of steel she saw lying about the
farmyard. Unfortunately it is not quite big enough and extending it by
welding is likely to cause buckling and discolouration.

I can purchase sheet steel from our agricultural merchant but it is likely
they will have tried hard to prevent rusting in store.

Presumably a detergent to remove any oil followed by??

I have spent battery acid, brick cleaner, hypochlorite (sp) bleach plus
the usual domestic cleaning products.

regards
--
Tim Lamb


why not try local scrap or demolition yards?

regards

On Dec 8, 11:32 am, Tim Lamb wrote:
How would one go about deliberately rusting a sheet of cold rolled
steel?

My daughter has decided that the *must have* fireproof hearth under her
new log burner should be a rusted sheet of steel she saw lying about the
farmyard. Unfortunately it is not quite big enough and extending it by
welding is likely to cause buckling

tut tut ;) just tack it along the overlapped edge ?

and discolouration.

it'll soon rust again shurely? might be more "charming" too?

Jim K

Tim Lamb wrote:
How would one go about deliberately rusting a sheet of cold rolled steel?

My daughter has decided that the *must have* fireproof hearth under her
new log burner should be a rusted sheet of steel she saw lying about the
farmyard. Unfortunately it is not quite big enough and extending it by
welding is likely to cause buckling and discolouration.

I can purchase sheet steel from our agricultural merchant but it is
likely they will have tried hard to prevent rusting in store.

Presumably a detergent to remove any oil followed by??

I have spent battery acid, brick cleaner, hypochlorite (sp) bleach plus
the usual domestic cleaning products.


Now they used to do this to rally cars.. I remember seeing the rally
garage I lived over take delivery of a brand new escort body shell that
looked like it had been dredged out of the Marianas trench.."what is
THAT?" I asked "oh, its just been 'left out in the rain' a bit'" was the
reply, accompanied by a wink.

I THINK it was acid etched...in a bath, with possible electrolytic
assistance..


Looks like for STEEL hydrochloric or nitric acid or ferric chloride..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Industrial_etching

MM I left a screwdriver on ferric chloride years ago.that for sure
rusted it!

Brick acid is hydrochloric, so try that..



regards

On 08/12/11 12:39, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Brick acid is hydrochloric, so try that..

I'd second that, I made the mistake of cleaning my cheap brickie trowel
with brick acid to try and remove the residual mortar stains, that it
did, but next morning it was also covered in corrosion.

On Dec 8, 11:32*am, Tim Lamb wrote:
How would one go about deliberately rusting a sheet of cold rolled
steel?

My daughter has decided that the *must have* fireproof hearth under her
new log burner should be a rusted sheet of steel she saw lying about the
farmyard. Unfortunately it is not quite big enough and extending it by
welding is likely to cause buckling and discolouration.

I can purchase sheet steel from our agricultural merchant but it is
likely they will have tried hard to prevent rusting in store.

Presumably a detergent to remove any oil followed by??

I have spent battery acid, brick cleaner, hypochlorite (sp) bleach plus
the usual domestic cleaning products.

regards

sal****er is best, just leave it immersed overnight


NT

On Dec 8, 12:39 pm, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:
Tim Lamb wrote:
How would one go about deliberately rusting a sheet of cold rolled steel?

My daughter has decided that the *must have* fireproof hearth under her
new log burner should be a rusted sheet of steel she saw lying about the
farmyard. Unfortunately it is not quite big enough and extending it by
welding is likely to cause buckling and discolouration.

I can purchase sheet steel from our agricultural merchant but it is
likely they will have tried hard to prevent rusting in store.

Presumably a detergent to remove any oil followed by??

I have spent battery acid, brick cleaner, hypochlorite (sp) bleach plus
the usual domestic cleaning products.

Now they used to do this to rally cars.. I remember seeing the rally
garage I lived over take delivery of a brand new escort body shell that
looked like it had been dredged out of the Marianas trench.."what is
THAT?" I asked "oh, its just been 'left out in the rain' a bit'" was the
reply, accompanied by a wink.

I THINK it was acid etched...in a bath, with possible electrolytic
assistance..

now WHY on earth would anyone WANT to do that?

Jim K

In message
, Jim
K writes
On Dec 8, 11:32 am, Tim Lamb wrote:
How would one go about deliberately rusting a sheet of cold rolled
steel?

My daughter has decided that the *must have* fireproof hearth under her
new log burner should be a rusted sheet of steel she saw lying about the
farmyard. Unfortunately it is not quite big enough and extending it by
welding is likely to cause buckling

tut tut ;) just tack it along the overlapped edge ?

Huh!

This is a precision job for others to fit. Nearest millimetre at least.

I had thought butted with a mitre for weld but the heat will discolour
the rest and shrinkage from one side only welding will cause distortion.

and discolouration.

Indoors in a fancy garden *shed*.

it'll soon rust again shurely? might be more "charming" too?

regards

--
Tim Lamb

To rust...
- Strip all protective oil off (obviously do not buy Zintec coated)
- Heat with a blow torch or fire evenly all over
- Plunge into salt solution
- Leave out in the rain at 45-degrees if you want a multi-coloured
patina.

It will take on a surface orange patina very quickly.
Black millscale requires much higher temperatures.


To remove rust...
- Acetic acid solution (there are others, but this tends to be cheap)
- Do not leave in beyond shiny steel or you may find hey-presto you
are losing thickness fast
- Acid etch & zinc passivation spray (may be combined or separate) to
stop surface rust

The alloy of the steel matters if you want a certain patina etc.

In message , The Natural Philosopher
writes
Tim Lamb wrote:
How would one go about deliberately rusting a sheet of cold rolled steel?
My daughter has decided that the *must have* fireproof hearth under
her new log burner should be a rusted sheet of steel she saw lying
about the farmyard. Unfortunately it is not quite big enough and
extending it by welding is likely to cause buckling and discolouration.
I can purchase sheet steel from our agricultural merchant but it is
likely they will have tried hard to prevent rusting in store.
Presumably a detergent to remove any oil followed by??
I have spent battery acid, brick cleaner, hypochlorite (sp) bleach
plus the usual domestic cleaning products.


Now they used to do this to rally cars.. I remember seeing the rally
garage I lived over take delivery of a brand new escort body shell
that looked like it had been dredged out of the Marianas trench.."what
is THAT?" I asked "oh, its just been 'left out in the rain' a bit'" was
the reply, accompanied by a wink.

I THINK it was acid etched...in a bath, with possible electrolytic
assistance..


Looks like for STEEL hydrochloric or nitric acid or ferric chloride..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Industrial_etching

MM I left a screwdriver on ferric chloride years ago.that for sure
rusted it!

Brick acid is hydrochloric, so try that..

OK.

A plan:-)

regards

--
Tim Lamb

Jim K wrote:
On Dec 8, 12:39 pm, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:
Tim Lamb wrote:
How would one go about deliberately rusting a sheet of cold rolled steel?
My daughter has decided that the *must have* fireproof hearth under her
new log burner should be a rusted sheet of steel she saw lying about the
farmyard. Unfortunately it is not quite big enough and extending it by
welding is likely to cause buckling and discolouration.
I can purchase sheet steel from our agricultural merchant but it is
likely they will have tried hard to prevent rusting in store.
Presumably a detergent to remove any oil followed by??
I have spent battery acid, brick cleaner, hypochlorite (sp) bleach plus
the usual domestic cleaning products.
Now they used to do this to rally cars.. I remember seeing the rally
garage I lived over take delivery of a brand new escort body shell that
looked like it had been dredged out of the Marianas trench.."what is
THAT?" I asked "oh, its just been 'left out in the rain' a bit'" was the
reply, accompanied by a wink.

I THINK it was acid etched...in a bath, with possible electrolytic
assistance..

now WHY on earth would anyone WANT to do that?


Are you being sarcastic?

Look a rally car has to have, by regulation, a full rollcage inside it.
This roll cage is, by itself all the car needs to be stiff and strong
and stand up to cartwheeling down a welsh forest slope. It connects ALL
the suspension points.

The bodyshell is mere decoration and added weight. Well it keeps the mud
out a bit as well.

If it turns out to be made of paper thin steel that crumples on impact
and only lasts a year - well that's about five times longer than any
rally car bodyshell driven in a competitive way lasts, anyway.

Ergo that's the way they 'come' :-)





Jim K

In message , The Natural Philosopher
writes
Jim K wrote:
On Dec 8, 12:39 pm, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:
Tim Lamb wrote:
How would one go about deliberately rusting a sheet of cold rolled steel?
My daughter has decided that the *must have* fireproof hearth under her
new log burner should be a rusted sheet of steel she saw lying about the
farmyard. Unfortunately it is not quite big enough and extending it by
welding is likely to cause buckling and discolouration.
I can purchase sheet steel from our agricultural merchant but it is
likely they will have tried hard to prevent rusting in store.
Presumably a detergent to remove any oil followed by??
I have spent battery acid, brick cleaner, hypochlorite (sp) bleach plus
the usual domestic cleaning products.
Now they used to do this to rally cars.. I remember seeing the rally
garage I lived over take delivery of a brand new escort body shell that
looked like it had been dredged out of the Marianas trench.."what is
THAT?" I asked "oh, its just been 'left out in the rain' a bit'" was the
reply, accompanied by a wink.

I THINK it was acid etched...in a bath, with possible electrolytic
assistance..
now WHY on earth would anyone WANT to do that?


Are you being sarcastic?

Look a rally car has to have, by regulation, a full rollcage inside it.
This roll cage is, by itself all the car needs to be stiff and strong
and stand up to cartwheeling down a welsh forest slope. It connects ALL
the suspension points.

The bodyshell is mere decoration and added weight. Well it keeps the
mud out a bit as well.

If it turns out to be made of paper thin steel that crumples on impact
and only lasts a year - well that's about five times longer than any
rally car bodyshell driven in a competitive way lasts, anyway.

Ergo that's the way they 'come' :-)

ISTR that the early Mini shell was lighter and hence sought after for
the above reason.

regards

--
Tim Lamb

In message
, NT
writes
On Dec 8, 11:32*am, Tim Lamb wrote:
How would one go about deliberately rusting a sheet of cold rolled
steel?

My daughter has decided that the *must have* fireproof hearth under her
new log burner should be a rusted sheet of steel she saw lying about the
farmyard. Unfortunately it is not quite big enough and extending it by
welding is likely to cause buckling and discolouration.

I can purchase sheet steel from our agricultural merchant but it is
likely they will have tried hard to prevent rusting in store.

Presumably a detergent to remove any oil followed by??

I have spent battery acid, brick cleaner, hypochlorite (sp) bleach plus
the usual domestic cleaning products.

regards

sal****er is best, just leave it immersed overnight

Bit big,: roughly 1m square.

I'll go with the washing up liquid and sprayed on brick acid.

regards


NT

--
Tim Lamb

On 8 Dec, 11:32, Tim Lamb wrote:
How would one go about deliberately rusting a sheet of cold rolled
steel?
[snip]

I have spent battery acid, brick cleaner, hypochlorite (sp) bleach plus
the usual domestic cleaning products.

As noted else-thread, brick acid (possibly with additional salt) will
do nicely (after thorough degreasing). Don't forget the brick acid is
just there to provide chloride ions and disrupt any solid film. The
actual Fe - Fe2O3 reaction requires oxygen from the air - so a thin
film of the acid is what is required.

If trying other combinations, DO NOT mix the bleach with any of the
acids!

On Dec 8, 1:12 pm, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:
Jim K wrote:
On Dec 8, 12:39 pm, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:
Tim Lamb wrote:
How would one go about deliberately rusting a sheet of cold rolled steel?
My daughter has decided that the *must have* fireproof hearth under her
new log burner should be a rusted sheet of steel she saw lying about the
farmyard. Unfortunately it is not quite big enough and extending it by
welding is likely to cause buckling and discolouration.
I can purchase sheet steel from our agricultural merchant but it is
likely they will have tried hard to prevent rusting in store.
Presumably a detergent to remove any oil followed by??
I have spent battery acid, brick cleaner, hypochlorite (sp) bleach plus
the usual domestic cleaning products.
Now they used to do this to rally cars.. I remember seeing the rally
garage I lived over take delivery of a brand new escort body shell that
looked like it had been dredged out of the Marianas trench.."what is
THAT?" I asked "oh, its just been 'left out in the rain' a bit'" was the
reply, accompanied by a wink.

I THINK it was acid etched...in a bath, with possible electrolytic
assistance..

now WHY on earth would anyone WANT to do that?

Are you being sarcastic?

MOI?

Look a rally car has to have, by regulation, a full rollcage inside it.
This roll cage is, by itself all the car needs to be stiff and strong
and stand up to cartwheeling down a welsh forest slope. It connects ALL
the suspension points.

The bodyshell is mere decoration and added weight. Well it keeps the mud
out a bit as well.

If it turns out to be made of paper thin steel that crumples on impact
and only lasts a year - well that's about five times longer than any
rally car bodyshell driven in a competitive way lasts, anyway.

Ergo that's the way they 'come' :-)

and it makes *that* much difference? when was this?

sounds like a(nother) cock n bull story... any refs?

Jim K

Jim K wrote:
On Dec 8, 1:12 pm, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:
Jim K wrote:
On Dec 8, 12:39 pm, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:
Tim Lamb wrote:
How would one go about deliberately rusting a sheet of cold rolled steel?
My daughter has decided that the *must have* fireproof hearth under her
new log burner should be a rusted sheet of steel she saw lying about the
farmyard. Unfortunately it is not quite big enough and extending it by
welding is likely to cause buckling and discolouration.
I can purchase sheet steel from our agricultural merchant but it is
likely they will have tried hard to prevent rusting in store.
Presumably a detergent to remove any oil followed by??
I have spent battery acid, brick cleaner, hypochlorite (sp) bleach plus
the usual domestic cleaning products.
Now they used to do this to rally cars.. I remember seeing the rally
garage I lived over take delivery of a brand new escort body shell that
looked like it had been dredged out of the Marianas trench.."what is
THAT?" I asked "oh, its just been 'left out in the rain' a bit'" was the
reply, accompanied by a wink.
I THINK it was acid etched...in a bath, with possible electrolytic
assistance..
now WHY on earth would anyone WANT to do that?
Are you being sarcastic?

MOI?

Look a rally car has to have, by regulation, a full rollcage inside it.
This roll cage is, by itself all the car needs to be stiff and strong
and stand up to cartwheeling down a welsh forest slope. It connects ALL
the suspension points.

The bodyshell is mere decoration and added weight. Well it keeps the mud
out a bit as well.

If it turns out to be made of paper thin steel that crumples on impact
and only lasts a year - well that's about five times longer than any
rally car bodyshell driven in a competitive way lasts, anyway.

Ergo that's the way they 'come' :-)

and it makes *that* much difference? when was this?


yes it does.


sounds like a(nother) cock n bull story... any refs?

Well the garage was Andy Dawson in Belsize park and the date would be
around 1974

And I can assure you its gospel true.

I lived in a flat over it..


Now it MIGHT have been the way to remove any factory paint from it prior
to seam welding it..that was certainly done as well,. but the impression
I got was that it was also left in the bath a lot longer than necessary
to remove weight as well.

most rally car prep consists in removing everything and only putting
back the bits needed to make it go faster. No insulation, no interior
beyond seats for the driver/co-driver..


http://racesource.net/how_rally_cars_work.php


"Body Shell

The body itself has to remain as the steel unit that the manufacturer
builds, although it is totally stripped, lightened by removing
unnecessary brackets, seam welded along all every structural joints, and
sometimes acid-dipped to thin the metal in non-structural areas. A very
light and extremely strong internal roll cage is welded into the body
shell. "



Jim K

"Tim Lamb" wrote in message
...

How would one go about deliberately rusting a sheet of cold rolled steel?

My daughter has decided that the *must have* fireproof hearth under her new
log burner should be a rusted sheet of steel she saw lying about the
farmyard. Unfortunately it is not quite big enough and extending it by
welding is likely to cause buckling and discolouration.

I can purchase sheet steel from our agricultural merchant but it is likely
they will have tried hard to prevent rusting in store.

Presumably a detergent to remove any oil followed by??

I have spent battery acid, brick cleaner, hypochlorite (sp) bleach plus the
usual domestic cleaning products.

regards


Tim,

I have a couple of sheets of 9mm in the yard that are about 8'x4' and have
stood outside for about 6 years so have a 'nice rust patina' if she wants to
look and see if they are what she wants. Just down the road from you.

AWEM

On Thu, 08 Dec 2011 12:39:53 +0000, Chris Hogg wrote:

On Thu, 8 Dec 2011 11:32:26 +0000, Tim Lamb
wrote:

How would one go about deliberately rusting a sheet of cold rolled
steel?

My daughter has decided that the *must have* fireproof hearth under her
new log burner should be a rusted sheet of steel she saw lying about the
farmyard. Unfortunately it is not quite big enough and extending it by
welding is likely to cause buckling and discolouration.

I can purchase sheet steel from our agricultural merchant but it is
likely they will have tried hard to prevent rusting in store.

Presumably a detergent to remove any oil followed by??

I have spent battery acid, brick cleaner, hypochlorite (sp) bleach plus
the usual domestic cleaning products.

regards

Salty water, or just a dusting of salt, and leave outside but covered
so that the salt doesn't get washed away. Degrease it first. We live
by the sea. Any mild steel exposed to the salty sea-air rusts _very_
quickly.

Blood has the same effect, so 'degrease' it with an AG and don't bother with
protection.
--
Peter.
The gods will stay away
whilst religions hold sway

In message
,
Martin Bonner writes
On 8 Dec, 11:32, Tim Lamb wrote:
How would one go about deliberately rusting a sheet of cold rolled
steel?
[snip]

I have spent battery acid, brick cleaner, hypochlorite (sp) bleach plus
the usual domestic cleaning products.

As noted else-thread, brick acid (possibly with additional salt) will
do nicely (after thorough degreasing). Don't forget the brick acid is
just there to provide chloride ions and disrupt any solid film. The
actual Fe - Fe2O3 reaction requires oxygen from the air - so a thin
film of the acid is what is required.

If trying other combinations, DO NOT mix the bleach with any of the
acids!

Point taken:-)

Actually, No1 daughter, having seen the *pretty* colours of cold rolled
steel has decided that rusting is unnecessary!!

My plan is to rust one side and protect the other.

Thanks all for the comments and suggestions.

regards

--
Tim Lamb

In message , Andrew Mawson
writes
"Tim Lamb" wrote in message
.. .

How would one go about deliberately rusting a sheet of cold rolled steel?

My daughter has decided that the *must have* fireproof hearth under
her new log burner should be a rusted sheet of steel she saw lying
about the farmyard. Unfortunately it is not quite big enough and
extending it by welding is likely to cause buckling and discolouration.

I can purchase sheet steel from our agricultural merchant but it is
likely they will have tried hard to prevent rusting in store.

Presumably a detergent to remove any oil followed by??

I have spent battery acid, brick cleaner, hypochlorite (sp) bleach
plus the usual domestic cleaning products.

regards


Tim,

I have a couple of sheets of 9mm in the yard that are about 8'x4' and
have stood outside for about 6 years so have a 'nice rust patina' if
she wants to look and see if they are what she wants. Just down the
road from you.

That's a few bobsworth in weight! I had shown her some chequer plate of
6mm or so but that was rejected

The intention was to use 2mm. In the event my supplier had only 16g
available. The convenience of a nearly suitable thickness and a
guillotine led to a snap decision.

If I ever want to armour plate my truck, I'll know who to ask:-)

regards
--
Tim Lamb

Tim Lamb wrote:
In message
,
Martin Bonner writes
On 8 Dec, 11:32, Tim Lamb wrote:
How would one go about deliberately rusting a sheet of cold rolled
steel?
[snip]

I have spent battery acid, brick cleaner, hypochlorite (sp) bleach plus
the usual domestic cleaning products.

As noted else-thread, brick acid (possibly with additional salt) will
do nicely (after thorough degreasing). Don't forget the brick acid is
just there to provide chloride ions and disrupt any solid film. The
actual Fe - Fe2O3 reaction requires oxygen from the air - so a thin
film of the acid is what is required.

If trying other combinations, DO NOT mix the bleach with any of the
acids!

Point taken:-)

Actually, No1 daughter, having seen the *pretty* colours of cold rolled
steel has decided that rusting is unnecessary!!


go for a bit of heat and quench for gold-straw/blue colors..

My plan is to rust one side and protect the other.

Thanks all for the comments and suggestions.

regards

Tim Lamb wrote:

Actually, No1 daughter, having seen the *pretty* colours of cold rolled
steel has decided that rusting is unnecessary!!

No point suggesting Cor-ten steel than?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weathering_steel

Chris
--
Chris J Dixon Nottingham UK


Have dancing shoes, will ceilidh.

On Dec 8, 2:47*pm, Jim K wrote:
On Dec 8, 1:12 pm, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:



Jim K wrote:
On Dec 8, 12:39 pm, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:
Tim Lamb wrote:
How would one go about deliberately rusting a sheet of cold rolled steel?
My daughter has decided that the *must have* fireproof hearth under her
new log burner should be a rusted sheet of steel she saw lying about the
farmyard. Unfortunately it is not quite big enough and extending it by
welding is likely to cause buckling and discolouration.
I can purchase sheet steel from our agricultural merchant but it is
likely they will have tried hard to prevent rusting in store.
Presumably a detergent to remove any oil followed by??
I have spent battery acid, brick cleaner, hypochlorite (sp) bleach plus
the usual domestic cleaning products.
Now they used to do this to rally cars.. I remember seeing the rally
garage I lived over take *delivery of a brand new escort body shell that
looked like it had been dredged out of the Marianas trench.."what is
THAT?" I asked "oh, its just been 'left out in the rain' a bit'" was the
reply, accompanied by a wink.

I THINK it was acid etched...in a bath, with possible electrolytic
assistance..

now WHY on earth would anyone WANT to do that?

Are you being sarcastic?

MOI?

Look a rally car has to have, by regulation, a full rollcage inside it.
This roll cage is, by itself all the car needs to be stiff and strong
and stand up to cartwheeling down a welsh forest slope. It connects ALL
the suspension points.

The bodyshell is mere decoration and added weight. Well it keeps the mud
out a bit as well.

If it turns out to be made of paper thin steel that crumples on impact
and only lasts a year - well that's about five times longer than any
rally car bodyshell driven in a competitive way lasts, anyway.

Ergo that's the way they 'come' :-)

and it makes *that* much difference? when was this?

sounds like a(nother) cock n bull story... any refs?

I believe it was done in the 50's for stock car racing, long before
there were anything more safety conscious than brakes fitted to them.

On Dec 8, 10:26*pm, Tim Lamb wrote:
In message , Andrew Mawson
writes



"Tim Lamb" *wrote in message
.. .

How would one go about deliberately rusting a sheet of cold rolled steel?

My daughter has decided that the *must have* fireproof hearth under
her new log burner should be a rusted sheet of steel she saw lying
about the farmyard. Unfortunately it is not quite big enough and
extending it by welding is likely to cause buckling and discolouration.

I can purchase sheet steel from our agricultural merchant but it is
likely they will have tried hard to prevent rusting in store.

Presumably a detergent to remove any oil followed by??

I have spent battery acid, brick cleaner, hypochlorite (sp) bleach
plus the usual domestic cleaning products.

regards

Tim,

I have a couple of sheets of 9mm in the yard that are about 8'x4' and
have stood outside for about 6 years so have a 'nice rust patina' if
she wants to look and see if they are what she wants. Just down the
road from you.

That's a few bobsworth in weight! I had shown her some chequer plate of
6mm or so but that was rejected

The intention was to use 2mm. In the event my supplier had only 16g
available. The convenience of a nearly suitable thickness and a
guillotine led to a snap decision.

If I ever want to armour plate my truck, I'll know who to ask:-)

I believe the first tanks used were made of that.

On Thu, 8 Dec 2011 06:47:45 -0800 (PST), Jim K
wrote:

If it turns out to be made of paper thin steel that crumples on impact
and only lasts a year - well that's about five times longer than any
rally car bodyshell driven in a competitive way lasts, anyway.

Ergo that's the way they 'come' :-)

and it makes *that* much difference? when was this?

Yep; every kilo saved is extra speed/accel. About thirty years ago and
later.

sounds like a(nother) cock n bull story... any refs?

Mate of mine was a rallyist/engine preparer for Cosworth and
illuminated me about all sorts of 'competition' tricks.

On Thu, 08 Dec 2011 15:58:42 +0000, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:


Now it MIGHT have been the way to remove any factory paint from it prior
to seam welding it..that was certainly done as well,. but the impression
I got was that it was also left in the bath a lot longer than necessary
to remove weight as well.

most rally car prep consists in removing everything and only putting
back the bits needed to make it go faster. No insulation, no interior
beyond seats for the driver/co-driver..


http://racesource.net/how_rally_cars_work.php


"Body Shell

The body itself has to remain as the steel unit that the manufacturer
builds, although it is totally stripped, lightened by removing
unnecessary brackets, seam welded along all every structural joints, and
sometimes acid-dipped to thin the metal in non-structural areas. A very
light and extremely strong internal roll cage is welded into the body
shell. "

Taking weight out of the shell that way is neither here nor there, you
wouldn't do it for circuit racing and rallying is far harder on the
shell. Also minimum overall weight limits have always applied for a
long time - from the 60's for International events, can't recall when
for national sanctioned events. That's not to say you couldn't put
weight elsewhere where it works better, or by the use of ballast but
there are far bigger areas for enhancing performance than thinning a
shell. Putting the driver on a diet helps (although Gerry Marshall did
ok!)

The dipping is only to remove the seam sealer to ease the later
welding process. The sound deadening mats also come off in the dip.
Often manufacturers provide shells via their competition department
that only go part way through the manufacturing process. You get the
panels welded, occasionally with weld through sealer / primer on some
joints but with no additional seam sealer painted over.

In one circuit racing category I am familiar with over a number of
years the difference in weights from the lightest to the heaviest cars
were in the order of less a small handful of kilos - less than 1%
spread. The lightest cars weren't always the quickest either.


--

The Other Mike wrote:
On Thu, 08 Dec 2011 15:58:42 +0000, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:


Now it MIGHT have been the way to remove any factory paint from it prior
to seam welding it..that was certainly done as well,. but the impression
I got was that it was also left in the bath a lot longer than necessary
to remove weight as well.

most rally car prep consists in removing everything and only putting
back the bits needed to make it go faster. No insulation, no interior
beyond seats for the driver/co-driver..


http://racesource.net/how_rally_cars_work.php


"Body Shell

The body itself has to remain as the steel unit that the manufacturer
builds, although it is totally stripped, lightened by removing
unnecessary brackets, seam welded along all every structural joints, and
sometimes acid-dipped to thin the metal in non-structural areas. A very
light and extremely strong internal roll cage is welded into the body
shell. "

Taking weight out of the shell that way is neither here nor there, you
wouldn't do it for circuit racing and rallying is far harder on the
shell.

sigh.
You do and that's what the roll cage is for respectively.



Also minimum overall weight limits have always applied for a
long time - from the 60's for International events, can't recall when
for national sanctioned events. That's not to say you couldn't put
weight elsewhere where it works better, or by the use of ballast but
there are far bigger areas for enhancing performance than thinning a
shell. Putting the driver on a diet helps (although Gerry Marshall did
ok!)

The dipping is only to remove the seam sealer to ease the later
welding process. The sound deadening mats also come off in the dip.
Often manufacturers provide shells via their competition department
that only go part way through the manufacturing process. You get the
panels welded, occasionally with weld through sealer / primer on some
joints but with no additional seam sealer painted over.

In one circuit racing category I am familiar with over a number of
years the difference in weights from the lightest to the heaviest cars
were in the order of less a small handful of kilos - less than 1%
spread. The lightest cars weren't always the quickest either.


Thats probably because they were on a min weight spec,

On 08/12/2011 11:32, Tim Lamb wrote:
How would one go about deliberately rusting a sheet of cold rolled steel?

My daughter has decided that the *must have* fireproof hearth under her
new log burner should be a rusted sheet of steel she saw lying about the
farmyard. Unfortunately it is not quite big enough and extending it by
welding is likely to cause buckling and discolouration.

I can purchase sheet steel from our agricultural merchant but it is
likely they will have tried hard to prevent rusting in store.

Presumably a detergent to remove any oil followed by??

I have spent battery acid, brick cleaner, hypochlorite (sp) bleach plus
the usual domestic cleaning products.

regards
Leave it under the pier down at Worthing for a few weeks.

Even stainless steel would (eventually) object to that.

Andrew

Andrew wrote:

On 08/12/2011 11:32, Tim Lamb wrote:
How would one go about deliberately rusting a sheet of cold rolled steel?

My daughter has decided that the *must have* fireproof hearth under her
new log burner should be a rusted sheet of steel she saw lying about the
farmyard. Unfortunately it is not quite big enough and extending it by
welding is likely to cause buckling and discolouration.

I can purchase sheet steel from our agricultural merchant but it is
likely they will have tried hard to prevent rusting in store.

Presumably a detergent to remove any oil followed by??

I have spent battery acid, brick cleaner, hypochlorite (sp) bleach plus
the usual domestic cleaning products.

regards
Leave it under the pier down at Worthing for a few weeks.

Even stainless steel would (eventually) object to that.

Andrew

I think it would object more to the pikies that would nick it that night...
--
Tim Watts

On 08/01/2012 17:43, Tim Watts wrote:
Andrew wrote:

On 08/12/2011 11:32, Tim Lamb wrote:
How would one go about deliberately rusting a sheet of cold rolled steel?

My daughter has decided that the *must have* fireproof hearth under her
new log burner should be a rusted sheet of steel she saw lying about the
farmyard. Unfortunately it is not quite big enough and extending it by
welding is likely to cause buckling and discolouration.

I can purchase sheet steel from our agricultural merchant but it is
likely they will have tried hard to prevent rusting in store.

Presumably a detergent to remove any oil followed by??

I have spent battery acid, brick cleaner, hypochlorite (sp) bleach plus
the usual domestic cleaning products.

regards
Leave it under the pier down at Worthing for a few weeks.

Even stainless steel would (eventually) object to that.

Andrew

I think it would object more to the pikies that would nick it that night...

How about going around farms looking for old muckspreaders and the like
parked up in the corner of a field. You might get some nice rusty panels
from a bit of old agricultural kit. Something made a few years ago with
panels thicker than bakofoil which may have lost all its paint but
not actually motheaten ?. In Horsham we have long established
haulage contractor who also hired out excavators and suchlike. They
used to have a field next to Ifield station where old ruston-bucyrus
stuff and similar was just abandoned. I think Les Searle was his name.
He has (had) a traction engine that appears at the Dorset steam fest
and elsewhere. Old fuel/CH tanks that have rusted their outside and are
now being replaced by double-skinned plastic are another possibility.
Old skips would be a nice source of thick rusty sheet metal.

Judging by the way rust developed on my shovel after clearing salt
laden snow, could you just make up a 'tank' with some dpc sheet and
four bits of wood or a few bricks and chuck loads of salt in and immerse
the panel for a few weeks ?.

Andrew

In message , Andrew
writes
On 08/01/2012 17:43, Tim Watts wrote:
Andrew wrote:

On 08/12/2011 11:32, Tim Lamb wrote:
How would one go about deliberately rusting a sheet of cold rolled steel?

My daughter has decided that the *must have* fireproof hearth under her
new log burner should be a rusted sheet of steel she saw lying about the
farmyard. Unfortunately it is not quite big enough and extending it by
welding is likely to cause buckling and discolouration.

I can purchase sheet steel from our agricultural merchant but it is
likely they will have tried hard to prevent rusting in store.

Presumably a detergent to remove any oil followed by??

I have spent battery acid, brick cleaner, hypochlorite (sp) bleach plus
the usual domestic cleaning products.

regards
Leave it under the pier down at Worthing for a few weeks.

Even stainless steel would (eventually) object to that.

Andrew

I think it would object more to the pikies that would nick it that night...

How about going around farms looking for old muckspreaders and the like
parked up in the corner of a field. You might get some nice rusty panels
from a bit of old agricultural kit. Something made a few years ago with
panels thicker than bakofoil which may have lost all its paint but
not actually motheaten ?. In Horsham we have long established
haulage contractor who also hired out excavators and suchlike. They
used to have a field next to Ifield station where old ruston-bucyrus
stuff and similar was just abandoned. I think Les Searle was his name.
He has (had) a traction engine that appears at the Dorset steam fest
and elsewhere. Old fuel/CH tanks that have rusted their outside and are
now being replaced by double-skinned plastic are another possibility.
Old skips would be a nice source of thick rusty sheet metal.

Judging by the way rust developed on my shovel after clearing salt
laden snow, could you just make up a 'tank' with some dpc sheet and
four bits of wood or a few bricks and chuck loads of salt in and immerse
the panel for a few weeks ?.

This job was solved before Christmas when she decided she liked the
pretty blue colour of cold rolled steel!

Have you been away?:-)

regards

--
Tim Lamb

On 08/01/2012 13:50, Andrew wrote:

Even stainless steel would (eventually) object to that.

Good stainless won't rust in salt water. That's why they use it on boats.

Andy

On Sun, 08 Jan 2012 19:50:24 -0000, Andy Champ
wrote:

On 08/01/2012 13:50, Andrew wrote:

Even stainless steel would (eventually) object to that.

Good stainless won't rust in salt water. That's why they use it on
boats.

Andy

Wasn't there something about keels falling off yachts due to corrosion of
stainless steel bolts? And lack of oxygen around the bolts.

Or have I got entirely the wrong end of the stick here?

--
Rod

On Sun, 08 Jan 2012 13:50:31 +0000, Andrew wrote:

My daughter has decided that the *must have* fireproof hearth
under her
new log burner should be a rusted sheet of steel she saw lying
about
the farmyard.

Sorry only just spotted this thread. What does the spec say for the
hearth? For our stove it has to be a constructional hearth 840mm
square minimum and at least 125mm thick. And extend at least 150mm
back and sides from the stove, 225 in front (300 if used with doors
open and no spark guard.

Or is this steel just a decorative cover over the constructional
hearth.

As for making cold rolled steel rust. I'd try a good degrease, engine
cleaner "Gunk"? followed by a good was maybe using a mild abrasive
(Bar Keepers Friend, Vim, Ajax?) rinse. Leave outside, it soon rust
but do you really want rust or the blueing?

--
Cheers
Dave.

In message o.uk, Dave
Liquorice writes
On Sun, 08 Jan 2012 13:50:31 +0000, Andrew wrote:

My daughter has decided that the *must have* fireproof hearth
under her
new log burner should be a rusted sheet of steel she saw lying
about
the farmyard.

Sorry only just spotted this thread. What does the spec say for the
hearth? For our stove it has to be a constructional hearth 840mm
square minimum and at least 125mm thick. And extend at least 150mm
back and sides from the stove, 225 in front (300 if used with doors
open and no spark guard.

Or is this steel just a decorative cover over the constructional
hearth.

Decorative really. It's a timber garden shed and the architect has
specified 2 layers of plasterboard let in to the floor to act as a
hearth. The stove is about as small as they come:-)

As for making cold rolled steel rust. I'd try a good degrease, engine
cleaner "Gunk"? followed by a good was maybe using a mild abrasive
(Bar Keepers Friend, Vim, Ajax?) rinse. Leave outside, it soon rust
but do you really want rust or the blueing?

She's happy with the cold rolled finish.

regards


--
Tim Lamb

On Sun, 8 Jan 2012 23:04:48 +0000, Tim Lamb wrote:

Decorative really. It's a timber garden shed and the architect has
specified 2 layers of plasterboard let in to the floor to act as a
hearth. The stove is about as small as they come:-)

Is the architect aware how heavy even a tiny stove is? The Stovax
Stockton 5 Midline weighs 100kg. That stove doesn't need a
constructional hearth just something non-combustable 12mm thick. But
even so I'd have thought plasterboard far to soft to a) take the
loading from the stove b) stand up to any logs or tools being dropped
on it.

OK the steel will protect PB from dropped objects but I'm still not
convinced about the stove weight. Think I'd look at a couple of full
size paving slabs if they are going to be covered.

--
Cheers
Dave.

In message o.uk, Dave
Liquorice writes
On Sun, 8 Jan 2012 23:04:48 +0000, Tim Lamb wrote:

Decorative really. It's a timber garden shed and the architect has
specified 2 layers of plasterboard let in to the floor to act as a
hearth. The stove is about as small as they come:-)

Is the architect aware how heavy even a tiny stove is? The Stovax
Stockton 5 Midline weighs 100kg. That stove doesn't need a
constructional hearth just something non-combustable 12mm thick. But
even so I'd have thought plasterboard far to soft to a) take the
loading from the stove b) stand up to any logs or tools being dropped
on it.

OK the steel will protect PB from dropped objects but I'm still not
convinced about the stove weight. Think I'd look at a couple of full
size paving slabs if they are going to be covered.

Probably the least of her problems. Residential street in North London.
Planning consent granted and neighbours happy about design.

She then discovered permitted development rights, particularly the 50%
rule and changed the plan!

Planning now concerned about height following complaints from
surrounding houses. Builder had assured her that height above soil level
is the critical factor and lowered the soil by 800mm. Because the
building is occupying nearly the full garden width, it is difficult to
return soil for the measurement.

This is all before wafting wood smoke filters into bedroom windows.

regards


--
Tim Lamb

On Mon, 9 Jan 2012 10:34:47 +0000, Tim Lamb wrote:

Probably the least of her problems. Residential street in North London.

And no doubt in a smokeless zone? Not sure how woodburners fit with
smokeless zones, I have a sneaky feeling that some may be OK if they
have the "clean burn" systems.

She then discovered permitted development rights, particularly the 50%
rule and changed the plan!

Afraid that is a whoosh.

--
Cheers
Dave.

In message o.uk, Dave
Liquorice writes
On Mon, 9 Jan 2012 10:34:47 +0000, Tim Lamb wrote:

Probably the least of her problems. Residential street in North London.

And no doubt in a smokeless zone? Not sure how woodburners fit with
smokeless zones, I have a sneaky feeling that some may be OK if they
have the "clean burn" systems.

I think the one she has chosen meets the regulations but so does mine.
Smokes visibly when initially fired and there is a slight odour around
the garden when it is burning without yellow flames.

She then discovered permitted development rights, particularly the 50%
rule and changed the plan!

Afraid that is a whoosh.

Yes.

regards


--
Tim Lamb