I got a quote some 6 months ago for installing PV panels - it was
about £15k for 14(?) panels - ie around £1k per panel.

This BBC article caught my eye as it is local to me

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotlan...-fife-15856440

This quotes £300k for 800 panels, so pro-rata my 14 should have cost
me £5.3k. I'm glad I didn't go ahead. I now know quite why there
were so many cowboys jumping on the bandwagon.

Rob

Well a friend of mine has gone ahead with a company I consider to be if not
Cowboys, at least wearing spurs, so we shall see what comes out of it.
Brian

--
Brian Gaff -
Note:- In order to reduce spam, any email without 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name may be lost.
Blind user, so no pictures please!
"robgraham" wrote in message
...
I got a quote some 6 months ago for installing PV panels - it was
about £15k for 14(?) panels - ie around £1k per panel.

This BBC article caught my eye as it is local to me

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotlan...-fife-15856440

This quotes £300k for 800 panels, so pro-rata my 14 should have cost
me £5.3k. I'm glad I didn't go ahead. I now know quite why there
were so many cowboys jumping on the bandwagon.

Rob

robgraham wrote:
I got a quote some 6 months ago for installing PV panels - it was
about £15k for 14(?) panels - ie around £1k per panel.

This BBC article caught my eye as it is local to me

See the "solar meadow" thread, since you're local, perhaps you can be
our "ears" to see how much money it really saves/costs them?

On Nov 25, 8:58*am, robgraham wrote:
I got a quote some 6 months ago for installing PV panels - it was
about £15k for 14(?) panels - ie around £1k per panel.

This BBC article caught my eye as it is local to me

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotlan...-fife-15856440

This quotes £300k for 800 panels, so pro-rata my 14 should have cost
me £5.3k. *I'm glad I didn't go ahead. * I now know quite why there
were so many cowboys jumping on the bandwagon.

Rob


Economies of scale. Price depends on height/access to building and
other factors.
Panels vary in size, so price per panel is niether here nor there.
And of course BBC are ******s, haven't you realised?

Why are you glad you didn't go ahead at 8% to 12% income from capital
invested?
Now you have missed the bus, not very clever eh?

On 25/11/2011 08:58, robgraham wrote:

I got a quote some 6 months ago for installing PV panels - it was
about £15k for 14(?) panels - ie around £1k per panel.

This BBC article caught my eye as it is local to me

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotlan...-fife-15856440

This quotes £300k for 800 panels, so pro-rata my 14 should have cost
me £5.3k. I'm glad I didn't go ahead. I now know quite why there
were so many cowboys jumping on the bandwagon.


That seems to be about par for the 4KW course to date. Much cheaper if
you do it yourself but as with most d-i-y you won't get the subsidies
which are reserved for those tradesmen who have coughed up a wedge to be
registered installers and quite possibly the electricity company won't
give you anything for your surplus electricity either.


--
Roger Chapman

On 25/11/2011 10:11, Roger Chapman wrote:
On 25/11/2011 08:58, robgraham wrote:

I got a quote some 6 months ago for installing PV panels - it was
about £15k for 14(?) panels - ie around £1k per panel.

This BBC article caught my eye as it is local to me

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotlan...-fife-15856440

This quotes £300k for 800 panels, so pro-rata my 14 should have cost
me £5.3k. I'm glad I didn't go ahead. I now know quite why there
were so many cowboys jumping on the bandwagon.


That seems to be about par for the 4KW course to date. Much cheaper if
you do it yourself but as with most d-i-y you won't get the subsidies
which are reserved for those tradesmen who have coughed up a wedge to be
registered installers and quite possibly the electricity company won't
give you anything for your surplus electricity either.

Having said that, given the quantity of riders on this particular gravy
train, I expect registration is neither that difficult or expensive. If
there really is a vast profit margin being charged on the panels it
could pay to join the scheme just to DIY!


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 25/11/2011 11:26, John Rumm wrote:
On 25/11/2011 10:11, Roger Chapman wrote:
On 25/11/2011 08:58, robgraham wrote:

I got a quote some 6 months ago for installing PV panels - it was
about £15k for 14(?) panels - ie around £1k per panel.

This BBC article caught my eye as it is local to me

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotlan...-fife-15856440

This quotes £300k for 800 panels, so pro-rata my 14 should have cost
me £5.3k. I'm glad I didn't go ahead. I now know quite why there
were so many cowboys jumping on the bandwagon.


That seems to be about par for the 4KW course to date. Much cheaper if
you do it yourself but as with most d-i-y you won't get the subsidies
which are reserved for those tradesmen who have coughed up a wedge to be
registered installers and quite possibly the electricity company won't
give you anything for your surplus electricity either.

Having said that, given the quantity of riders on this particular gravy
train, I expect registration is neither that difficult or expensive. If
there really is a vast profit margin being charged on the panels it
could pay to join the scheme just to DIY!

I have been looking for the retail price of PV panels and the
information seems extremely sparse. The one price I have found so far is
£559 for a 260W panel. So 15 for a 3.9KW array would cost £8385 on that
basis and with inverter and ancillary items the total cost for a DIY
install would be at least £10,000. Scaffolding and possible labouring
assistance would add to the cost and at the end of the day the lack of a
scheme guarantee would mean that you would be carrying an increased risk
for the first 5 or quite possibly 10 years of the expected 25 year time
span. To make DIY viable the basic costs need to be much lower than this
example.

--
Roger Chapman

On Nov 25, 9:34 am, harry wrote:
On Nov 25, 8:58 am, robgraham wrote:

I got a quote some 6 months ago for installing PV panels - it was
about £15k for 14(?) panels - ie around £1k per panel.

This BBC article caught my eye as it is local to me

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotlan...-fife-15856440

This quotes £300k for 800 panels, so pro-rata my 14 should have cost
me £5.3k. I'm glad I didn't go ahead. I now know quite why there
were so many cowboys jumping on the bandwagon.

Rob

Economies of scale. Price depends on height/access to building and
other factors.
Panels vary in size, so price per panel is niether here nor there.
And of course BBC are ******s, haven't you realised?

Why are you glad you didn't go ahead at 8% to 12% income from capital
invested?
Now you have missed the bus, not very clever eh?

seems some words are missing here --- "projected" "unproven" "fingers
crossed" "bare arsed greed" etc
;)

Jim K

In article ,
Roger Chapman writes:

I have been looking for the retail price of PV panels and the
information seems extremely sparse. The one price I have found so far is
£559 for a 260W panel. So 15 for a 3.9KW array would cost £8385 on that
basis and with inverter and ancillary items the total cost for a DIY
install would be at least £10,000. Scaffolding and possible labouring

You need to factor in an average of 2 additional inverter
replacements during a 25 year period. Panels will also need
periodic cleaning to keep efficiency, but the frequency will
depend on lots of things.

assistance would add to the cost and at the end of the day the lack of a
scheme guarantee would mean that you would be carrying an increased risk
for the first 5 or quite possibly 10 years of the expected 25 year time
span. To make DIY viable the basic costs need to be much lower than this
example.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

Jim K wrote:
On Nov 25, 9:34 am, harry wrote:
On Nov 25, 8:58 am, robgraham wrote:

I got a quote some 6 months ago for installing PV panels - it was
about £15k for 14(?) panels - ie around £1k per panel.
This BBC article caught my eye as it is local to me
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotlan...-fife-15856440
This quotes £300k for 800 panels, so pro-rata my 14 should have cost
me £5.3k. I'm glad I didn't go ahead. I now know quite why there
were so many cowboys jumping on the bandwagon.
Rob
Economies of scale. Price depends on height/access to building and
other factors.
Panels vary in size, so price per panel is niether here nor there.
And of course BBC are ******s, haven't you realised?

Why are you glad you didn't go ahead at 8% to 12% income from capital
invested?
Now you have missed the bus, not very clever eh?

seems some words are missing here --- "projected" "unproven" "fingers
crossed" "bare arsed greed" etc
;)

Jim K
harry's house is full of Betamax cassettes. old sinclair calculators, a
sinclair C5, and on the wall is a huge poster of a Ford Edsel..

On Nov 25, 8:58*am, robgraham wrote:
I got a quote some 6 months ago for installing PV panels - it was
about £15k for 14(?) panels - ie around £1k per panel.

This BBC article caught my eye as it is local to me

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotlan...-fife-15856440

This quotes £300k for 800 panels, so pro-rata my 14 should have cost
me £5.3k. *I'm glad I didn't go ahead. * I now know quite why there
were so many cowboys jumping on the bandwagon.

Rob

Never heard of quantity discounts?

MBQ

On Nov 25, 12:13*pm, Roger Chapman wrote:
On 25/11/2011 11:26, John Rumm wrote:









On 25/11/2011 10:11, Roger Chapman wrote:
On 25/11/2011 08:58, robgraham wrote:

I got a quote some 6 months ago for installing PV panels - it was
about £15k for 14(?) panels - ie around £1k per panel.

This BBC article caught my eye as it is local to me

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotlan...-fife-15856440

This quotes £300k for 800 panels, so pro-rata my 14 should have cost
me £5.3k. I'm glad I didn't go ahead. I now know quite why there
were so many cowboys jumping on the bandwagon.

That seems to be about par for the 4KW course to date. Much cheaper if
you do it yourself but as with most d-i-y you won't get the subsidies
which are reserved for those tradesmen who have coughed up a wedge to be
registered installers and quite possibly the electricity company won't
give you anything for your surplus electricity either.

Having said that, given the quantity of riders on this particular gravy
train, I expect registration is neither that difficult or expensive. If
there really is a vast profit margin being charged on the panels it
could pay to join the scheme just to DIY!

I have been looking for the retail price of PV panels and the
information seems extremely sparse. The one price I have found so far is
£559 for a 260W panel. So 15 for a 3.9KW array would cost £8385 on that
basis and with inverter and ancillary items the total cost for a DIY
install would be at least £10,000. Scaffolding and possible labouring
assistance would add to the cost and at the end of the day the lack of a
scheme guarantee would mean that you would be carrying an increased risk
for the first 5 or quite possibly 10 years of the expected 25 year time
span. To make DIY viable the basic costs need to be much lower than this
example.

--
Roger Chapman

I predict prices will plummet over the next 12 months.

MBQ

On 25/11/2011 12:54, Andrew Gabriel wrote:
In ,
Roger writes:

I have been looking for the retail price of PV panels and the
information seems extremely sparse. The one price I have found so far is
£559 for a 260W panel. So 15 for a 3.9KW array would cost £8385 on that
basis and with inverter and ancillary items the total cost for a DIY
install would be at least £10,000. Scaffolding and possible labouring

You need to factor in an average of 2 additional inverter
replacements during a 25 year period. Panels will also need
periodic cleaning to keep efficiency, but the frequency will
depend on lots of things.

Which would also apply to commercial installations (which casts doubt on
the alleged 10% return).

I am sure I have seen somewhere that the panels are self cleaning.

assistance would add to the cost and at the end of the day the lack of a
scheme guarantee would mean that you would be carrying an increased risk
for the first 5 or quite possibly 10 years of the expected 25 year time
span. To make DIY viable the basic costs need to be much lower than this
example.

So even with the FIT starting at 43.3p is the now superseded set-up
economic? Adverts are already appearing claiming that the reduced
figure of 21p is viable but I can't see how if the installation is still
going to cost over £10,000.

--
Roger Chapman

In article , Andrew Gabriel
writes

You need to factor in an average of 2 additional inverter
replacements during a 25 year period.

why? it's solid state electronics, so should be reliable.

--
(\__/)
(='.'=)
(")_(")

On Fri, 25 Nov 2011 11:26:26 +0000, John Rumm wrote:

On 25/11/2011 10:11, Roger Chapman wrote:
On 25/11/2011 08:58, robgraham wrote:

I got a quote some 6 months ago for installing PV panels - it was
about £15k for 14(?) panels - ie around £1k per panel.

This BBC article caught my eye as it is local to me

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotlan...-fife-15856440

This quotes £300k for 800 panels, so pro-rata my 14 should have cost
me £5.3k. I'm glad I didn't go ahead. I now know quite why there
were so many cowboys jumping on the bandwagon.


That seems to be about par for the 4KW course to date. Much cheaper if
you do it yourself but as with most d-i-y you won't get the subsidies
which are reserved for those tradesmen who have coughed up a wedge to be
registered installers and quite possibly the electricity company won't
give you anything for your surplus electricity either.

Having said that, given the quantity of riders on this particular gravy
train, I expect registration is neither that difficult or expensive. If
there really is a vast profit margin being charged on the panels it
could pay to join the scheme just to DIY!

micro-generatio accreditation schemes seem to be day courses but I'm
confused about costs - £990 for MCS which includes

- Marketing
- Sales Presentation & Survey
- System Design
- Roof Mounting Systems
- Complete personalised Quality Control Manual
- Full Quality Management System
- MCS Procedures Documentation
- Solar Calculation Tool (Based on SAP 2009) for project design
- Installation inspection checklist
- Step by Step guide through the MCS process
- Full support after the course
- Support from accreditation body


but £330 for solar which says it includes

- Sales
- Surveying
- Solar Calculation
- Feed In Tariff
- Basic Roofing Structure & Integrity Issues
- Hands on PV Panel Mounting
- Mechanical Installation of Roof Fixings
- Scaffolding
- G83/1 Grid Connection Requirements
- Paperwork & test forms
- Supply of PV Kits


cant really tel if these give you the accreditation or just the training
for it :-)
--
(º€¢.¸(¨*€¢.¸ ¸.€¢*¨)¸.€¢Âº)
.€¢Â°€¢. Nik .€¢Â°€¢.
(¸.€¢Âº(¸.€¢Â¨* *¨€¢.¸)º€¢.¸)

On 25/11/2011 12:13, Roger Chapman wrote:
On 25/11/2011 11:26, John Rumm wrote:
On 25/11/2011 10:11, Roger Chapman wrote:
On 25/11/2011 08:58, robgraham wrote:

I got a quote some 6 months ago for installing PV panels - it was
about £15k for 14(?) panels - ie around £1k per panel.

This BBC article caught my eye as it is local to me

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotlan...-fife-15856440

This quotes £300k for 800 panels, so pro-rata my 14 should have cost
me £5.3k. I'm glad I didn't go ahead. I now know quite why there
were so many cowboys jumping on the bandwagon.


That seems to be about par for the 4KW course to date. Much cheaper if
you do it yourself but as with most d-i-y you won't get the subsidies
which are reserved for those tradesmen who have coughed up a wedge to be
registered installers and quite possibly the electricity company won't
give you anything for your surplus electricity either.

Having said that, given the quantity of riders on this particular gravy
train, I expect registration is neither that difficult or expensive. If
there really is a vast profit margin being charged on the panels it
could pay to join the scheme just to DIY!

I have been looking for the retail price of PV panels and the

Its the wholesale price that would be more interesting to know...

say we take:

http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/31...anel_230w.html

at $1.55/watt, that sounds like $356 a panel or about £230 at today's
exchange rate. Don't know if there woul dbe import duty, but with vat
that would be £276. Sounds like 90% mark-up should be doable.

information seems extremely sparse. The one price I have found so far is
£559 for a 260W panel. So 15 for a 3.9KW array would cost £8385 on that
basis and with inverter and ancillary items the total cost for a DIY
install would be at least £10,000. Scaffolding and possible labouring

Should be doable for 6K perhaps based on the above. Still not cost
effective without subsidy, but you can see the attraction to the ex DG
salesman type!

assistance would add to the cost and at the end of the day the lack of a
scheme guarantee would mean that you would be carrying an increased risk
for the first 5 or quite possibly 10 years of the expected 25 year time
span. To make DIY viable the basic costs need to be much lower than this
example.

Indeed, unless you can get the total install cost down to a couple of
grand there is no real attraction.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On Nov 25, 2:03*pm, Ghostrecon wrote:
On Fri, 25 Nov 2011 11:26:26 +0000, John Rumm wrote:
On 25/11/2011 10:11, Roger Chapman wrote:
On 25/11/2011 08:58, robgraham wrote:

I got a quote some 6 months ago for installing PV panels - it was
about £15k for 14(?) panels - ie around £1k per panel.

This BBC article caught my eye as it is local to me

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotlan...-fife-15856440

This quotes £300k for 800 panels, so pro-rata my 14 should have cost
me £5.3k. I'm glad I didn't go ahead. I now know quite why there
were so many cowboys jumping on the bandwagon.

That seems to be about par for the 4KW course to date. Much cheaper if
you do it yourself but as with most d-i-y you won't get the subsidies
which are reserved for those tradesmen who have coughed up a wedge to be
registered installers and quite possibly the electricity company won't
give you anything for your surplus electricity either.

Having said that, given the quantity of riders on this particular gravy
train, I expect registration is neither that difficult or expensive. If
there really is a vast profit margin being charged on the panels it
could pay to join the scheme just to DIY!

micro-generatio accreditation schemes seem to be day courses but I'm
confused about costs - £990 for MCS which includes

- Marketing
- Sales Presentation & Survey
- System Design
- Roof Mounting Systems
- Complete personalised Quality Control Manual
- Full Quality Management System
- MCS Procedures Documentation
- Solar Calculation Tool (Based on SAP 2009) for project design
- Installation inspection checklist
- Step by Step guide through the MCS process
- Full support after the course
- Support from accreditation body

but £330 for solar which says it includes

- Sales
- Surveying
- Solar Calculation
- Feed In Tariff
- Basic Roofing Structure & Integrity Issues
- Hands on PV Panel Mounting
- Mechanical Installation of Roof Fixings
- Scaffolding
- G83/1 Grid Connection Requirements
- Paperwork & test forms
- Supply of PV Kits

cant really tel if these give you the accreditation or just the training
for it :-)
--
*(º•.¸(¨*•.¸ * ¸.•*¨)¸.•º)
* * .•°•. *Nik .•°•.
*(¸.•º(¸.•¨* **¨•.¸)º•.¸)- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

That is a baffling figure. The average electrician would need no
training beyond the instructions that come with the panels/inverter.
The only slightly skilled bit is cutting and forming all the bits of
lead weathering that goes round the roof mountings.
That just leaves the bumf. Now that might take some training.

Mike Tomlinson wrote:
In article , Andrew Gabriel
writes

You need to factor in an average of 2 additional inverter
replacements during a 25 year period.

why? it's solid state electronics, so should be reliable.

cos its power and has electrolytic capacitors in it.

On Nov 25, 1:53*pm, Mike Tomlinson wrote:
In article , Andrew Gabriel
writes

You need to factor in an average of 2 additional inverter
replacements during a 25 year period.

why? it's solid state electronics, so should be reliable.

--
(\__/)
(='.'=)
(")_(")

The only moving part is the ventilation fan.

On Fri, 25 Nov 2011 08:16:02 -0800 (PST), harry wrote:

On Nov 25, 2:03Â*pm, Ghostrecon wrote:
On Fri, 25 Nov 2011 11:26:26 +0000, John Rumm wrote:
On 25/11/2011 10:11, Roger Chapman wrote:
On 25/11/2011 08:58, robgraham wrote:

I got a quote some 6 months ago for installing PV panels - it was
about £15k for 14(?) panels - ie around £1k per panel.

This BBC article caught my eye as it is local to me

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotlan...-fife-15856440

This quotes £300k for 800 panels, so pro-rata my 14 should have cost
me £5.3k. I'm glad I didn't go ahead. I now know quite why there
were so many cowboys jumping on the bandwagon.

That seems to be about par for the 4KW course to date. Much cheaper if
you do it yourself but as with most d-i-y you won't get the subsidies
which are reserved for those tradesmen who have coughed up a wedge to be
registered installers and quite possibly the electricity company won't
give you anything for your surplus electricity either.

Having said that, given the quantity of riders on this particular gravy
train, I expect registration is neither that difficult or expensive. If
there really is a vast profit margin being charged on the panels it
could pay to join the scheme just to DIY!

micro-generatio accreditation schemes seem to be day courses but I'm
confused about costs - £990 for MCS which includes

- Marketing
- Sales Presentation & Survey
- System Design
- Roof Mounting Systems
- Complete personalised Quality Control Manual
- Full Quality Management System
- MCS Procedures Documentation
- Solar Calculation Tool (Based on SAP 2009) for project design
- Installation inspection checklist
- Step by Step guide through the MCS process
- Full support after the course
- Support from accreditation body

but £330 for solar which says it includes

- Sales
- Surveying
- Solar Calculation
- Feed In Tariff
- Basic Roofing Structure & Integrity Issues
- Hands on PV Panel Mounting
- Mechanical Installation of Roof Fixings
- Scaffolding
- G83/1 Grid Connection Requirements
- Paperwork & test forms
- Supply of PV Kits

cant really tel if these give you the accreditation or just the training
for it :-)
--
Â*(º€¢.¸(¨*€¢.¸ Â* ¸.€¢*¨)¸.€¢Âº)
Â* Â* .€¢Â°€¢. Â*Nik .€¢Â°€¢.
Â*(¸.€¢Âº(¸.€¢Â¨* Â**¨€¢.¸)º€¢.¸)- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

That is a baffling figure. The average electrician would need no
training beyond the instructions that come with the panels/inverter.
The only slightly skilled bit is cutting and forming all the bits of
lead weathering that goes round the roof mountings.
That just leaves the bumf. Now that might take some training.

why is it baffling - none of the above is about the ability to install
anything its about training for the accreditation its a capitalist economy
so its about what the market will bear not about what it costs
--
(º€¢.¸(¨*€¢.¸ ¸.€¢*¨)¸.€¢Âº)
.€¢Â°€¢. Nik .€¢Â°€¢.
(¸.€¢Âº(¸.€¢Â¨* *¨€¢.¸)º€¢.¸)

In article ,
Mike Tomlinson wrote:
In article , Andrew Gabriel
writes

You need to factor in an average of 2 additional inverter
replacements during a 25 year period.

why? it's solid state electronics, so should be reliable.

held together with lead-free solder, so won't be.

--
From KT24

Using a RISC OS computer running v5.16

On Nov 25, 1:53*pm, Mike Tomlinson wrote:
In article , Andrew Gabriel
writes

You need to factor in an average of 2 additional inverter
replacements during a 25 year period.

why? it's solid state electronics, so should be reliable.

--
(\__/)
(='.'=)
(")_(")

And what is the life expectancy of your tv, your cd player, the
electronics that control your washing machine or CH boiler ? Need I
go on ? Using those household goods as examples would suggest that
Adam's 3 units per 25 years is kinda generous. And in reality an MTBF
of 70,000 hours for anything electronic and associated with power is
fairly impressive, so I stick even more with suggesting that only 2
replacements over 25 years is pretty generous.

Anyone know what these inverters will retail at - £1000 maybe a
conservative guess.

Rob

On Nov 25, 1:28*pm, "Man at B&Q" wrote:
On Nov 25, 8:58*am, robgraham wrote:

I got a quote some 6 months ago for installing PV panels - it was
about £15k for 14(?) panels - ie around £1k per panel.

This BBC article caught my eye as it is local to me

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotlan...-fife-15856440

This quotes £300k for 800 panels, so pro-rata my 14 should have cost
me £5.3k. *I'm glad I didn't go ahead. * I now know quite why there
were so many cowboys jumping on the bandwagon.

Rob

Never heard of quantity discounts?

MBQ

Yes, but the installers will be obtaining some of those quantity
discounts but not passing that element of the costs on. As said
somewhere higher up the thread, it is what the market will bear.

If my £15k had been £10k I might well have gone ahead but the
installers were making a killing while they could by taking advantage
of the stupidly high FIT to convince the punters that they would make
money regardless of however much they paid for the installation.

Rob

Design of invertors, like invertor MIG welders, is important.

All the components correctly orientated so as to optimise airflow over
where it matters (ie, wind-tunnel) rather than miserably grabbing a
little airflow cooling the screw over there but missing everything
that really requires it.

Component quality is a huge variable, never mind the long history of
dud capacitors.

I would feel pretty good if I got to replace one at Yr 12.5 and one at
Yr 25, however I suspect there will be a repair & exchange market at
some point. Probably "£250 for refurb with 2yr warranty or go buy
£1200 new with the same fault".

Oops, PV production is saturated right now with most companies making
a loss due to China dumping them. This has trashed their stock
prices... as well as Obama's backed PV maker going bust with a big
handout for setup.

I could be cynical and say politicians are merely giving a life-line
to such companies after relatives or charitable trust bought a shed
load of common stock knowing profitability will improve markedly at
some point due to gov't enforced demand. Sort of like Compact Flaming
Lightbulbs magically got endorsed yet suddenly became very short live
& slow turn on products (in the main).

"harry" wrote in message
...
On Nov 25, 8:58 am, robgraham wrote:
I got a quote some 6 months ago for installing PV panels - it was
about £15k for 14(?) panels - ie around £1k per panel.

This BBC article caught my eye as it is local to me

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotlan...-fife-15856440

This quotes £300k for 800 panels, so pro-rata my 14 should have cost
me £5.3k. I'm glad I didn't go ahead. I now know quite why there
were so many cowboys jumping on the bandwagon.

Rob


Economies of scale. Price depends on height/access to building and
other factors.
Panels vary in size, so price per panel is niether here nor there.
And of course BBC are ******s, haven't you realised?

Why are you glad you didn't go ahead at 8% to 12% income from capital
invested?
Now you have missed the bus, not very clever eh?

---------------------------------------------------------------------

With having to write down the capital to zero in 25 years, 8% return for a
quite risky, illiquid investment is rubbish and I don't know why anyone
(except the financially illiterate) thinks otherwise.

(that's looking at it from an individual household pov, from a bulk
installer pov, some of the risks factor out, but even the 8% is only "just
enough").

tim

On Fri, 25 Nov 2011 16:18:15 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Mike Tomlinson wrote:
In article , Andrew Gabriel
writes

You need to factor in an average of 2 additional inverter replacements
during a 25 year period.

why? it's solid state electronics, so should be reliable.

cos its power and has electrolytic capacitors in it.


The problem isn't with the electrolytics really, it's the installation
site. Generally people are told that, for best efficiency, the inverter
should be installed as close as possible to the panels - so it usually
ends up in the roof space. That's a hostile environment for any
electronics so it reduces the life. You are probably better getting the
installer to put the inverter somewhere where the temperature is more
stable and a bit cooler, paying a bit extra for longer runs of a slightly
thicker cable up to the panels. That will probably save the cost of
inverter replacements.

--
mick

On Nov 26, 10:08 am, mick wrote:
On Fri, 25 Nov 2011 16:18:15 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Mike Tomlinson wrote:
In article , Andrew Gabriel
writes

You need to factor in an average of 2 additional inverter replacements
during a 25 year period.

why? it's solid state electronics, so should be reliable.

cos its power and has electrolytic capacitors in it.

The problem isn't with the electrolytics really, it's the installation
site. Generally people are told that, for best efficiency, the inverter
should be installed as close as possible to the panels - so it usually
ends up in the roof space. That's a hostile environment for any
electronics so it reduces the life. You are probably better getting the
installer to put the inverter somewhere where the temperature is more
stable and a bit cooler, paying a bit extra for longer runs of a slightly
thicker cable up to the panels. That will probably save the cost of
inverter replacements.

--
mick

now you tell them ;))

I doubt *anyone* was given that option... even if the installation
grunts understood the concept...

Where;s yours Harry?

Jim K

On Nov 26, 10:22 am, Jim K wrote:
On Nov 26, 10:08 am, mick wrote:



On Fri, 25 Nov 2011 16:18:15 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Mike Tomlinson wrote:
In article , Andrew Gabriel
writes

You need to factor in an average of 2 additional inverter replacements
during a 25 year period.

why? it's solid state electronics, so should be reliable.

cos its power and has electrolytic capacitors in it.

The problem isn't with the electrolytics really, it's the installation
site. Generally people are told that, for best efficiency, the inverter
should be installed as close as possible to the panels - so it usually
ends up in the roof space. That's a hostile environment for any
electronics so it reduces the life. You are probably better getting the
installer to put the inverter somewhere where the temperature is more
stable and a bit cooler, paying a bit extra for longer runs of a slightly
thicker cable up to the panels. That will probably save the cost of
inverter replacements.

--
mick

now you tell them ;))

I doubt *anyone* was given that option... even if the installation
grunts understood the concept...

Where;s yours Harry?

er keep it clean people...

Jim K

mick wrote:
On Fri, 25 Nov 2011 16:18:15 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Mike Tomlinson wrote:
In article , Andrew Gabriel
writes

You need to factor in an average of 2 additional inverter replacements
during a 25 year period.
why? it's solid state electronics, so should be reliable.

cos its power and has electrolytic capacitors in it.


The problem isn't with the electrolytics really, it's the installation
site. Generally people are told that, for best efficiency, the inverter
should be installed as close as possible to the panels - so it usually
ends up in the roof space. That's a hostile environment for any
electronics so it reduces the life. You are probably better getting the
installer to put the inverter somewhere where the temperature is more
stable and a bit cooler, paying a bit extra for longer runs of a slightly
thicker cable up to the panels. That will probably save the cost of
inverter replacements.

Nah. You run aircon off the panels output to keep the inverter cool!

You KNOW it makes sense.

On Nov 26, 10:08*am, mick wrote:
the inverter should be installed as close as possible to the
panels - so it usually ends up in the roof space.

Risk of 40oC temperatures & condensing humidity, cooling obstructed by
airborne dust & even soot. Surely they stick them 6ft lower in a
cupboard?


I am sure it would be better to bulk buy a block of land in the South
of France or Spain, then people anywhere in UK or Europe pay a fee to
buy PV panels and receive the FiT that way. You gain 1) true bulk buy
2) economy of scale of installation 3) better output re closer to
equator re insolation 4) better industrial invertor 5) direct feed
into supergrid.

It could be set up as a non-profit organisation, everyone basically
buys shares. The FiT could have been set more reasonably yet still
giving a good return. The existing system is pure welfare for DG firm
directors & fitters, the directors having no skills apart from
collecting the lolly and phoenixing if their fitters make a balls up
of a few.

Local microgeneration does not save more than the insolation of
southern France/Spain vs cloudy wet northern latitude UK. Bizarre. Why
are companies such as EDF not doing a scheme, it could be made cheaper
for taxpayer & consumers alike? So whilst there is some subsidy it at
least uses economy of scale!

js.b1 wrote:
On Nov 26, 10:08 am, mick wrote:
the inverter should be installed as close as possible to the
panels - so it usually ends up in the roof space.

Risk of 40oC temperatures & condensing humidity, cooling obstructed by
airborne dust & even soot. Surely they stick them 6ft lower in a
cupboard?


I am sure it would be better to bulk buy a block of land in the South
of France or Spain, then people anywhere in UK or Europe pay a fee to
buy PV panels and receive the FiT that way. You gain 1) true bulk buy
2) economy of scale of installation 3) better output re closer to
equator re insolation 4) better industrial invertor 5) direct feed
into supergrid.

It could be set up as a non-profit organisation, everyone basically
buys shares. The FiT could have been set more reasonably yet still
giving a good return. The existing system is pure welfare for DG firm
directors & fitters, the directors having no skills apart from
collecting the lolly and phoenixing if their fitters make a balls up
of a few.

Local microgeneration does not save more than the insolation of
southern France/Spain vs cloudy wet northern latitude UK. Bizarre. Why
are companies such as EDF not doing a scheme, it could be made cheaper
for taxpayer & consumers alike? So whilst there is some subsidy it at
least uses economy of scale!

No better is to all club together and buy shares in a nuclear power
station and build it.

Far better ROI..and the shares will still be worth something in 20 years.

On 26/11/2011 11:15, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Far better ROI..and the shares will still be worth something in 20 years.

You didn't have any British Energy shares then.

--
Roger Chapman

Roger Chapman wrote:
On 26/11/2011 11:15, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Far better ROI..and the shares will still be worth something in 20 years.

You didn't have any British Energy shares then.

I did. I made a lot of money out of them when it was sold to EDF.

On 26/11/2011 14:46, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Roger Chapman wrote:
On 26/11/2011 11:15, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Far better ROI..and the shares will still be worth something in 20
years.

You didn't have any British Energy shares then.

I did. I made a lot of money out of them when it was sold to EDF.

Then you must have bought them after it went bust.

--
Roger Chapman

Roger Chapman wrote:
On 26/11/2011 14:46, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Roger Chapman wrote:
On 26/11/2011 11:15, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Far better ROI..and the shares will still be worth something in 20
years.

You didn't have any British Energy shares then.

I did. I made a lot of money out of them when it was sold to EDF.

Then you must have bought them after it went bust.


Probably... ;-)

mick wrote:

The problem isn't with the electrolytics really, it's the installation
site. Generally people are told that, for best efficiency, the inverter
should be installed as close as possible to the panels - so it usually
ends up in the roof space. That's a hostile environment for any
electronics so it reduces the life. You are probably better getting the
installer to put the inverter somewhere where the temperature is more
stable and a bit cooler, paying a bit extra for longer runs of a slightly
thicker cable up to the panels.

Mine is in the garage, and also makes it far easier to check the
display, though I do have a remote monitor.

The inverter is naturally-cooled, so no fan to worry about, or
convoluted air paths to clog.

Chris
--
Chris J Dixon Nottingham UK


Have dancing shoes, will ceilidh.

"Roger Chapman" wrote in message
...


Then you must have bought them after it went bust.

It didn't go bust, it was bankrupted by TB.

On Nov 26, 10:05*am, "tim...." wrote:
"harry" wrote in message

...
On Nov 25, 8:58 am, robgraham wrote:

I got a quote some 6 months ago for installing PV panels - it was
about £15k for 14(?) panels - ie around £1k per panel.

This BBC article caught my eye as it is local to me

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotlan...-fife-15856440

This quotes £300k for 800 panels, so pro-rata my 14 should have cost
me £5.3k. I'm glad I didn't go ahead. I now know quite why there
were so many cowboys jumping on the bandwagon.

Rob

Economies of scale. Price depends on height/access to building and
other factors.
Panels vary in size, so price per panel is niether here nor there.
And of course BBC are ******s, haven't you realised?

Why are you glad you didn't go ahead at 8% to 12% income from capital
invested?
Now you have missed the bus, not very clever eh?

---------------------------------------------------------------------

With having to write down the capital to zero in 25 years, 8% return for a
quite risky, illiquid investment is rubbish and I don't know why anyone
(except the financially illiterate) thinks otherwise.

(that's looking at it from an individual household pov, from a bulk
installer pov, some of the risks factor out, but even the 8% is only "just
enough").

tim

Well, the scheme has ceased through over subscription.
Over 90,000 have been installed. ie, it was too good a deal to last.
I have had 8% of my money back in 6 months from April 21. I hope to
get 12% in the full twelve months.
Tell me where I can get 12% return inflation linked and tax free?
Also around 25% reduction in electricity bill.

On Nov 26, 10:08*am, mick wrote:
On Fri, 25 Nov 2011 16:18:15 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Mike Tomlinson wrote:
In article , Andrew Gabriel
writes

You need to factor in an average of 2 additional inverter replacements
during a 25 year period.

why? it's solid state electronics, so should be reliable.

cos its power and has electrolytic capacitors in it.

The problem isn't with the electrolytics really, it's the installation
site. Generally people are told that, for best efficiency, the inverter
should be installed as close as possible to the panels - so it usually
ends up in the roof space. That's a hostile environment for any
electronics so it reduces the life. You are probably better getting the
installer to put the inverter somewhere where the temperature is more
stable and a bit cooler, paying a bit extra for longer runs of a slightly
thicker cable up to the panels. That will probably save the cost of
inverter replacements.

--
mick

Exactly right. My inverter is in the subterranean garage, coldest
place in the building. The cooling fan only ever runs for a few
minutes at low speed.
Mind, it is rated for up to 40degC environments.