On Nov 26, 10:22*am, Jim K wrote:
On Nov 26, 10:08 am, mick wrote:





On Fri, 25 Nov 2011 16:18:15 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Mike Tomlinson wrote:
In article , Andrew Gabriel
writes

You need to factor in an average of 2 additional inverter replacements
during a 25 year period.

why? it's solid state electronics, so should be reliable.

cos its power and has electrolytic capacitors in it.

The problem isn't with the electrolytics really, it's the installation
site. Generally people are told that, for best efficiency, the inverter
should be installed as close as possible to the panels - so it usually
ends up in the roof space. That's a hostile environment for any
electronics so it reduces the life. You are probably better getting the
installer to put the inverter somewhere where the temperature is more
stable and a bit cooler, paying a bit extra for longer runs of a slightly
thicker cable up to the panels. That will probably save the cost of
inverter replacements.

--
mick

now you tell them ;))

I doubt *anyone* was given that option... even if the installation
grunts understood the concept...

Where;s yours Harry?

Jim K- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Garage, quite cool see previous post.
They did show an inclination to put it in the roof space but I soon
put a stop to that. I also made them put in bigger cable than they
were going to.
The whole installation team were a bunch of ******s. Young boys.
I had to go on the roof and show them how to connect it up myself.
I had a roof leak too,they had to come back and fix it.
They just hadn't been propertly trained and no one in the management
was even slightly technical.
They were good lads really, I felt a bit sorry for them. They had
just been chucked in the deep end.
f***k knows what will happen to them now the whole business seems in
jeopardy.

No problems with the technology so far.

On Nov 26, 10:54*am, "js.b1" wrote:
On Nov 26, 10:08*am, mick wrote:

the inverter should be installed as close as possible to the
panels - so it usually ends up in the roof space.

Risk of 40oC temperatures & condensing humidity, cooling obstructed by
airborne dust & even soot. Surely they stick them 6ft lower in a
cupboard?

I am sure it would be better to bulk buy a block of land in the South
of France or Spain, then people anywhere in UK or Europe pay a fee to
buy PV panels and receive the FiT that way. You gain 1) true bulk buy
2) economy of scale of installation 3) better output re closer to
equator re insolation 4) better industrial invertor 5) direct feed
into supergrid.

It could be set up as a non-profit organisation, everyone basically
buys shares. The FiT could have been set more reasonably yet still
giving a good return. The existing system is pure welfare for DG firm
directors & fitters, the directors having no skills apart from
collecting the lolly and phoenixing if their fitters make a balls up
of a few.

Local microgeneration does not save more than the insolation of
southern France/Spain vs cloudy wet northern latitude UK. Bizarre. Why
are companies such as EDF not doing a scheme, it could be made cheaper
for taxpayer & consumers alike? So whilst there is some subsidy it at
least uses economy of scale!

Local microgeneration reduces losses in the grid ie I am supplying my
nieghbours houses.

harry wrote:

the scheme has ceased [...]it was too good a deal [...]

Too true harry.

Tell me where I can get 12% return inflation linked and tax free?

If it was in the bank, fair enough you would struggle to make 4% on it,
but at least you could get your lump sum back.

Your lump sum is essentially gone, a comparable new system is already
2/3 the price you paid and falling, would be worth even less if you
flogged it secondhand, especially as it wouldn't be "blessed" to give
the new owner FIT payments (unless they paid a licensed installer full
whack to have it re-installed) plus you'll have to pay for maintenance
on it at some point down the line.

On 26/11/2011 19:07, harry wrote:
On Nov 26, 10:05 am, wrote:
wrote in message

...
On Nov 25, 8:58 am, wrote:

I got a quote some 6 months ago for installing PV panels - it was
about £15k for 14(?) panels - ie around £1k per panel.

This BBC article caught my eye as it is local to me

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotlan...-fife-15856440

This quotes £300k for 800 panels, so pro-rata my 14 should have cost
me £5.3k. I'm glad I didn't go ahead. I now know quite why there
were so many cowboys jumping on the bandwagon.

Rob

Economies of scale. Price depends on height/access to building and
other factors.
Panels vary in size, so price per panel is niether here nor there.
And of course BBC are ******s, haven't you realised?

Why are you glad you didn't go ahead at 8% to 12% income from capital
invested?
Now you have missed the bus, not very clever eh?

---------------------------------------------------------------------

With having to write down the capital to zero in 25 years, 8% return for a
quite risky, illiquid investment is rubbish and I don't know why anyone
(except the financially illiterate) thinks otherwise.

(that's looking at it from an individual household pov, from a bulk
installer pov, some of the risks factor out, but even the 8% is only "just
enough").

tim

Well, the scheme has ceased through over subscription.
Over 90,000 have been installed. ie, it was too good a deal to last.
I have had 8% of my money back in 6 months from April 21. I hope to
get 12% in the full twelve months.
Tell me where I can get 12% return inflation linked and tax free?
Also around 25% reduction in electricity bill.

I would be surprised if you could get more than 11% over the course of a
year and that isn't your return on capital which is appreciably less.

Over the course of 25 years you have to recover the whole of your
£15,000 investment as well as making a sufficient surplus to cover
interest, maintenance costs and eventually decommissioning costs. You
might have invested in pounds Sterling but the return is in pounds
Wilsonian so that part of the deal is certainly not inflation linked
except in a negative way.

There is a long way to go of course but if you are expecting to make 12%
and you have only made 11% then your deemed capital investment has just
gone up by 1%. If you want to settle on 10% then it has gone down by 1%
but it will have to go down much more quickly than that in future years
if you are ever to get the return you have been dreaming about.

--
Roger Chapman

On Nov 26, 7:28*pm, Andy Burns wrote:
harry wrote:
the scheme has ceased [...]it was too good a deal [...]

Too true harry.

Tell me where I can get 12% return inflation linked and tax free?

If it was in the bank, fair enough you would struggle to make 4% on it,
but at least you could get your lump sum back.

Your lump sum is essentially gone, a comparable new system is already
2/3 the price you paid and falling, would be worth even less if you
flogged it secondhand, especially as it wouldn't be "blessed" to give
the new owner FIT payments (unless they paid a licensed installer full
whack to have it re-installed) plus you'll have to pay for maintenance
on it at some point down the line.


Peanuts.
The installations may well come down in price. However that just
means I would have had a smaller investment and less return as I don't
have enough space to go for the 10KW size.

Definitely not worth moving an array. The repairs to the roof would be
very costly.
Anyway, itis the site that is licensed, not the array.
However adds value to the propery if sold.
Now they have reduced the money given for new installations, if I sold
my house, the desireabilty of it has increased as there will be no
more installations generating this amount of return.

ie I can say I get £1500/year from it whereas post Dec12 ones will
only get £750.

How much is an asset worth that generates £1500 year, tax free
inflation linked?
Plus reduced electricity bills.
Anybody that could have got onto this and didn't is mad.

harry wrote:
On Nov 26, 7:28 pm, Andy Burns wrote:
harry wrote:
the scheme has ceased [...]it was too good a deal [...]
Too true harry.

Tell me where I can get 12% return inflation linked and tax free?
If it was in the bank, fair enough you would struggle to make 4% on it,
but at least you could get your lump sum back.

Your lump sum is essentially gone, a comparable new system is already
2/3 the price you paid and falling, would be worth even less if you
flogged it secondhand, especially as it wouldn't be "blessed" to give
the new owner FIT payments (unless they paid a licensed installer full
whack to have it re-installed) plus you'll have to pay for maintenance
on it at some point down the line.


Peanuts.
The installations may well come down in price. However that just
means I would have had a smaller investment and less return as I don't
have enough space to go for the 10KW size.

Definitely not worth moving an array. The repairs to the roof would be
very costly.
Anyway, itis the site that is licensed, not the array.
However adds value to the propery if sold.
Now they have reduced the money given for new installations, if I sold
my house, the desireabilty of it has increased as there will be no
more installations generating this amount of return.

ie I can say I get £1500/year from it whereas post Dec12 ones will
only get £750.

How much is an asset worth that generates £1500 year, tax free
inflation linked?

depends on how long it goes on doing it harry.

How's your insurance policy?


Plus reduced electricity bills.
Anybody that could have got onto this and didn't is mad.

harry wrote:
On Nov 26, 10:54 am, "js.b1" wrote:
On Nov 26, 10:08 am, mick wrote:

the inverter should be installed as close as possible to the
panels - so it usually ends up in the roof space.
Risk of 40oC temperatures & condensing humidity, cooling obstructed by
airborne dust & even soot. Surely they stick them 6ft lower in a
cupboard?

I am sure it would be better to bulk buy a block of land in the South
of France or Spain, then people anywhere in UK or Europe pay a fee to
buy PV panels and receive the FiT that way. You gain 1) true bulk buy
2) economy of scale of installation 3) better output re closer to
equator re insolation 4) better industrial invertor 5) direct feed
into supergrid.

It could be set up as a non-profit organisation, everyone basically
buys shares. The FiT could have been set more reasonably yet still
giving a good return. The existing system is pure welfare for DG firm
directors & fitters, the directors having no skills apart from
collecting the lolly and phoenixing if their fitters make a balls up
of a few.

Local microgeneration does not save more than the insolation of
southern France/Spain vs cloudy wet northern latitude UK. Bizarre. Why
are companies such as EDF not doing a scheme, it could be made cheaper
for taxpayer & consumers alike? So whilst there is some subsidy it at
least uses economy of scale!

Local microgeneration reduces losses in the grid ie I am supplying my
nieghbours houses.



I am sure they will be pleased to hear its at 4 times the cost of
anything else and they are required to pay you for it

On Fri, 25 Nov 2011 09:09:33 -0000, Brian Gaff wrote:

Well a friend of mine has gone ahead with a company I consider to be if not
Cowboys, at least wearing spurs, so we shall see what comes out of it.
Brian

IRTA "wiring spurs"!


--
http://petersparrots.com
http://petersphotos.com

Is a castrated pig disgruntled?

harry wrote:

How much is an asset worth that generates £1500 year, tax free
inflation linked?

Treat it as an annuity and assume future inflation locked at 3%, its
present value is £26k

Good luck to anyone who's recently spent £13k getting PV installed and
then unexpectedly need to move house, try to slap £26k on the asking
price, then see what the estate agent has to say :-)

Plus reduced electricity bills.

Even with that.

On Nov 26, 7:30*pm, Roger Chapman wrote:
On 26/11/2011 19:07, harry wrote:





On Nov 26, 10:05 am, *wrote:
*wrote in message

....
On Nov 25, 8:58 am, *wrote:

I got a quote some 6 months ago for installing PV panels - it was
about £15k for 14(?) panels - ie around £1k per panel.

This BBC article caught my eye as it is local to me

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotlan...-fife-15856440

This quotes £300k for 800 panels, so pro-rata my 14 should have cost
me £5.3k. I'm glad I didn't go ahead. I now know quite why there
were so many cowboys jumping on the bandwagon.

Rob

Economies of scale. Price depends on height/access to building and
other factors.
Panels vary in size, so price per panel is niether here nor there.
And of course BBC are ******s, haven't you realised?

Why are you glad you didn't go ahead at 8% to 12% income from capital
invested?
Now you have missed the bus, not very clever eh?

---------------------------------------------------------------------

With having to write down the capital to zero in 25 years, 8% return for a
quite risky, illiquid investment is rubbish and I don't know why anyone
(except the financially illiterate) thinks otherwise.

(that's looking at it from an individual household pov, from a bulk
installer pov, some of the risks factor out, but even the 8% is only "just
enough").

tim

Well, the scheme has ceased through over subscription.
Over 90,000 have been installed. ie, it was too good a deal to last.
I have had 8% of my money back in 6 months from April 21. *I hope to
get 12% in the full twelve months.
Tell me where I can get 12% return inflation linked and tax free?
Also around 25% reduction in electricity bill.

I would be surprised if you could get more than 11% over the course of a
year and that isn't your return on capital which is appreciably less.

Over the course of 25 years you have to recover the whole of your
£15,000 investment as well as making a sufficient surplus to cover
interest, maintenance costs and eventually decommissioning costs. You
might have invested in pounds Sterling but the return is in pounds
Wilsonian so that part of the deal is certainly not inflation linked
except in a negative way.

There is a long way to go of course but if you are expecting to make 12%
and you have only made 11% then your deemed capital investment has just
gone up by 1%. If you want to settle on 10% then it has gone down by 1%
but it will have to go down much more quickly than that in future years
if you are ever to get the return you have been dreaming about.

--
Roger Chapman- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Well the rate inflationis going I might get it back in five or six
years.
You forgot about the tax free bit, that adds what? 20%?

If I left the money in the bank it would be worth less every year.

The way the price of electricity is going up,maybe I'll get it back
in less than that.

On 26/11/2011 20:20, harry wrote:
On Nov 26, 7:30 pm, Roger wrote:
On 26/11/2011 19:07, harry wrote:





On Nov 26, 10:05 am, wrote:
wrote in message

...
On Nov 25, 8:58 am, wrote:

I got a quote some 6 months ago for installing PV panels - it was
about £15k for 14(?) panels - ie around £1k per panel.

This BBC article caught my eye as it is local to me

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotlan...-fife-15856440

This quotes £300k for 800 panels, so pro-rata my 14 should have cost
me £5.3k. I'm glad I didn't go ahead. I now know quite why there
were so many cowboys jumping on the bandwagon.

Rob

Economies of scale. Price depends on height/access to building and
other factors.
Panels vary in size, so price per panel is niether here nor there.
And of course BBC are ******s, haven't you realised?

Why are you glad you didn't go ahead at 8% to 12% income from capital
invested?
Now you have missed the bus, not very clever eh?

---------------------------------------------------------------------

With having to write down the capital to zero in 25 years, 8% return for a
quite risky, illiquid investment is rubbish and I don't know why anyone
(except the financially illiterate) thinks otherwise.

(that's looking at it from an individual household pov, from a bulk
installer pov, some of the risks factor out, but even the 8% is only "just
enough").

tim

Well, the scheme has ceased through over subscription.
Over 90,000 have been installed. ie, it was too good a deal to last.
I have had 8% of my money back in 6 months from April 21. I hope to
get 12% in the full twelve months.
Tell me where I can get 12% return inflation linked and tax free?
Also around 25% reduction in electricity bill.

I would be surprised if you could get more than 11% over the course of a
year and that isn't your return on capital which is appreciably less.

Over the course of 25 years you have to recover the whole of your
£15,000 investment as well as making a sufficient surplus to cover
interest, maintenance costs and eventually decommissioning costs. You
might have invested in pounds Sterling but the return is in pounds
Wilsonian so that part of the deal is certainly not inflation linked
except in a negative way.

There is a long way to go of course but if you are expecting to make 12%
and you have only made 11% then your deemed capital investment has just
gone up by 1%. If you want to settle on 10% then it has gone down by 1%
but it will have to go down much more quickly than that in future years
if you are ever to get the return you have been dreaming about.

--
Roger Chapman- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Well the rate inflationis going I might get it back in five or six
years.

Target inflation is 2.5%. Given the recent failure to hit target
undershooting may be the order of the day once the present mess is
tidied up.

You forgot about the tax free bit, that adds what? 20%?

Only on the net profit and if you make a loss well hard cheese because
you won't get any tax relief on that. You won't know how much of a real
profit you have made until the 25 years is up and you might well see
everything going pear shaped well into the period when you have no
come-back on the installer and repair/replacement costs might be
horrendous if inflation has been as high as you want.

If I left the money in the bank it would be worth less every year.

That's the problem with banks. At least if you put some of in an ISA you
would get the income tax free.

The way the price of electricity is going up,maybe I'll get it back
in less than that.

Huhne was claiming a bit ago that the price would actually be falling
some years hence. I can't remember the detail.

--
Roger Chapman

Peanuts.
The installations may well come down in price. However that just
means I would have had a smaller investment and less return as I don't
have enough space to go for the 10KW size.

Definitely not worth moving an array. The repairs to the roof would be
very costly.
Anyway, itis the site that is licensed, not the array.
However adds value to the propery if sold.
Now they have reduced the money given for new installations, if I sold
my house, the desireabilty of it has increased as there will be no
more installations generating this amount of return.


You say that it will add to the value of the property if sold; has this
been proven anywhere?. Personally I think they look terrible, and
are an eyesore on the homes that have them in my area.
I would consider buying a home where they were fitted if they were
out of sight, but I certainly wouldn't pay more than I would for an
otherwise identical neighbouring property.
The cost of maintenance, or the cost of making good the roof after
removal may well make it less attractive to buyers.

"harry" wrote in message
...
On Nov 26, 10:05 am, "tim...." wrote:
"harry" wrote in message

...
On Nov 25, 8:58 am, robgraham wrote:

I got a quote some 6 months ago for installing PV panels - it was
about £15k for 14(?) panels - ie around £1k per panel.

This BBC article caught my eye as it is local to me

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotlan...-fife-15856440

This quotes £300k for 800 panels, so pro-rata my 14 should have cost
me £5.3k. I'm glad I didn't go ahead. I now know quite why there
were so many cowboys jumping on the bandwagon.

Rob

Economies of scale. Price depends on height/access to building and
other factors.
Panels vary in size, so price per panel is niether here nor there.
And of course BBC are ******s, haven't you realised?

Why are you glad you didn't go ahead at 8% to 12% income from capital
invested?
Now you have missed the bus, not very clever eh?

---------------------------------------------------------------------

With having to write down the capital to zero in 25 years, 8% return for a
quite risky, illiquid investment is rubbish and I don't know why anyone
(except the financially illiterate) thinks otherwise.

(that's looking at it from an individual household pov, from a bulk
installer pov, some of the risks factor out, but even the 8% is only "just
enough").

tim

Well, the scheme has ceased through over subscription.
Over 90,000 have been installed. ie, it was too good a deal to last.
I have had 8% of my money back in 6 months from April 21. I hope to
get 12% in the full twelve months.
Tell me where I can get 12% return inflation linked and tax free?

Also around 25% reduction in electricity bill.

-----------------------------------------------------------------

I didn't say that you could get 12%. I said that 8% when representing BOTH
return of capital AND interest on that capital isn't enough.

And you have a very small leccy bill if it saves you 25%

tim

"Roger Chapman" wrote in message
...
On 26/11/2011 20:20, harry wrote:
On Nov 26, 7:30 pm, Roger wrote:
On 26/11/2011 19:07, harry wrote:





On Nov 26, 10:05 am, wrote:
wrote in message

...
On Nov 25, 8:58 am, wrote:

I got a quote some 6 months ago for installing PV panels - it was
about £15k for 14(?) panels - ie around £1k per panel.

This BBC article caught my eye as it is local to me

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotlan...-fife-15856440

This quotes £300k for 800 panels, so pro-rata my 14 should have cost
me £5.3k. I'm glad I didn't go ahead. I now know quite why there
were so many cowboys jumping on the bandwagon.

Rob

Economies of scale. Price depends on height/access to building and
other factors.
Panels vary in size, so price per panel is niether here nor there.
And of course BBC are ******s, haven't you realised?

Why are you glad you didn't go ahead at 8% to 12% income from capital
invested?
Now you have missed the bus, not very clever eh?

---------------------------------------------------------------------

With having to write down the capital to zero in 25 years, 8% return
for a
quite risky, illiquid investment is rubbish and I don't know why
anyone
(except the financially illiterate) thinks otherwise.

(that's looking at it from an individual household pov, from a bulk
installer pov, some of the risks factor out, but even the 8% is only
"just
enough").

tim

Well, the scheme has ceased through over subscription.
Over 90,000 have been installed. ie, it was too good a deal to last.
I have had 8% of my money back in 6 months from April 21. I hope to
get 12% in the full twelve months.
Tell me where I can get 12% return inflation linked and tax free?
Also around 25% reduction in electricity bill.

I would be surprised if you could get more than 11% over the course of a
year and that isn't your return on capital which is appreciably less.

Over the course of 25 years you have to recover the whole of your
£15,000 investment as well as making a sufficient surplus to cover
interest, maintenance costs and eventually decommissioning costs. You
might have invested in pounds Sterling but the return is in pounds
Wilsonian so that part of the deal is certainly not inflation linked
except in a negative way.

There is a long way to go of course but if you are expecting to make 12%
and you have only made 11% then your deemed capital investment has just
gone up by 1%. If you want to settle on 10% then it has gone down by 1%
but it will have to go down much more quickly than that in future years
if you are ever to get the return you have been dreaming about.

--
Roger Chapman- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Well the rate inflationis going I might get it back in five or six
years.

Target inflation is 2.5%. Given the recent failure to hit target
undershooting may be the order of the day once the present mess is tidied
up.

You forgot about the tax free bit, that adds what? 20%?

Only on the net profit and if you make a loss well hard cheese because you
won't get any tax relief on that. You won't know how much of a real profit
you have made until the 25 years is up and you might well see everything
going pear shaped well into the period when you have no come-back on the
installer and repair/replacement costs might be horrendous if inflation
has been as high as you want.

If I left the money in the bank it would be worth less every year.

That's the problem with banks. At least if you put some of in an ISA you
would get the income tax free.

The way the price of electricity is going up,maybe I'll get it back
in less than that.

Huhne was claiming a bit ago that the price would actually be falling some
years hence. I can't remember the detail.

No he didn't.

He is claiming that "green" generation will eventually be less that fossil
fuel generation when (at some point in the future) fossil fuel generation
has inflated in cost by 200%

(though I agree he did in in a way that suggested the absolute bill would be
smaller than today)

tim

In article ,
harry writes:
Exactly right. My inverter is in the subterranean garage, coldest
place in the building. The cooling fan only ever runs for a few
minutes at low speed.
Mind, it is rated for up to 40degC environments.

My loft goes up to 55C. Not often. Only when the sun's really strong ;-)

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

On Nov 26, 11:05*pm, "tim...." wrote:
"harry" wrote in message

...
On Nov 26, 10:05 am, "tim...." wrote:





"harry" wrote in message

....
On Nov 25, 8:58 am, robgraham wrote:

I got a quote some 6 months ago for installing PV panels - it was
about £15k for 14(?) panels - ie around £1k per panel.

This BBC article caught my eye as it is local to me

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotlan...-fife-15856440

This quotes £300k for 800 panels, so pro-rata my 14 should have cost
me £5.3k. I'm glad I didn't go ahead. I now know quite why there
were so many cowboys jumping on the bandwagon.

Rob

Economies of scale. Price depends on height/access to building and
other factors.
Panels vary in size, so price per panel is niether here nor there.
And of course BBC are ******s, haven't you realised?

Why are you glad you didn't go ahead at 8% to 12% income from capital
invested?
Now you have missed the bus, not very clever eh?

---------------------------------------------------------------------

With having to write down the capital to zero in 25 years, 8% return for a
quite risky, illiquid investment is rubbish and I don't know why anyone
(except the financially illiterate) thinks otherwise.

(that's looking at it from an individual household pov, from a bulk
installer pov, some of the risks factor out, but even the 8% is only "just
enough").

tim

Well, the scheme has ceased through over subscription.
Over 90,000 have been installed. ie, it was too good a deal to last.
I have had 8% of my money back in 6 months from April 21. *I hope to
get 12% in the full twelve months.
Tell me where I can get 12% return inflation linked and tax free?

Also around 25% reduction in electricity bill.

-----------------------------------------------------------------

I didn't say that you could get 12%. *I said that 8% when representing BOTH
return of capital AND interest on that capital isn't enough.

And you have a very small leccy bill if it saves you 25%

tim- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I do have a very small electricity bill. The whole house is geared
towards energy efficiency. Net zero energy in fact.
I export more electricity than I use and get much more money back than
I give them.
I have no heating bill.

On Nov 26, 11:08*pm, "tim...." wrote:
"Roger Chapman" wrote in message

...





On 26/11/2011 20:20, harry wrote:
On Nov 26, 7:30 pm, Roger *wrote:
On 26/11/2011 19:07, harry wrote:

On Nov 26, 10:05 am, * *wrote:
* *wrote in message

...
On Nov 25, 8:58 am, * *wrote:

I got a quote some 6 months ago for installing PV panels - it was
about £15k for 14(?) panels - ie around £1k per panel.

This BBC article caught my eye as it is local to me

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotlan...-fife-15856440

This quotes £300k for 800 panels, so pro-rata my 14 should have cost
me £5.3k. I'm glad I didn't go ahead. I now know quite why there
were so many cowboys jumping on the bandwagon.

Rob

Economies of scale. Price depends on height/access to building and
other factors.
Panels vary in size, so price per panel is niether here nor there.
And of course BBC are ******s, haven't you realised?

Why are you glad you didn't go ahead at 8% to 12% income from capital
invested?
Now you have missed the bus, not very clever eh?

---------------------------------------------------------------------

With having to write down the capital to zero in 25 years, 8% return
for a
quite risky, illiquid investment is rubbish and I don't know why
anyone
(except the financially illiterate) thinks otherwise.

(that's looking at it from an individual household pov, from a bulk
installer pov, some of the risks factor out, but even the 8% is only
"just
enough").

tim

Well, the scheme has ceased through over subscription.
Over 90,000 have been installed. ie, it was too good a deal to last.
I have had 8% of my money back in 6 months from April 21. *I hope to
get 12% in the full twelve months.
Tell me where I can get 12% return inflation linked and tax free?
Also around 25% reduction in electricity bill.

I would be surprised if you could get more than 11% over the course of a
year and that isn't your return on capital which is appreciably less.

Over the course of 25 years you have to recover the whole of your
£15,000 investment as well as making a sufficient surplus to cover
interest, maintenance costs and eventually decommissioning costs. You
might have invested in pounds Sterling but the return is in pounds
Wilsonian so that part of the deal is certainly not inflation linked
except in a negative way.

There is a long way to go of course but if you are expecting to make 12%
and you have only made 11% then your deemed capital investment has just
gone up by 1%. If you want to settle on 10% then it has gone down by 1%
but it will have to go down much more quickly than that in future years
if you are ever to get the return you have been dreaming about.

--
Roger Chapman- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Well the rate inflationis going I might get it back in five or six
years.

Target inflation is 2.5%. Given the recent failure to hit target
undershooting may be the order of the day once the present mess is tidied
up.

You forgot about the tax free bit, that adds what? 20%?

Only on the net profit and if you make a loss well hard cheese because you
won't get any tax relief on that. You won't know how much of a real profit
you have made until the 25 years is up and you might well see everything
going pear shaped well into the period when you have no come-back on the
installer and repair/replacement costs might be horrendous if inflation
has been as high as you want.

If I left the money in the bank it would be worth less every year.

That's the problem with banks. At least if you put some of in an ISA you
would get the income tax free.

The way the price of electricity is going up,maybe I'll *get it back
in less than that.

Huhne was claiming a bit ago that the price would actually be falling some
years hence. I can't remember the detail.

No he didn't.

He is claiming that "green" generation will eventually be less that fossil
fuel generation when (at some point in the future) fossil fuel generation
has inflated in cost by 200%

(though I agree he did in in a way that suggested the absolute bill would be
smaller than today)

tim- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

The point of the present scheme was to get people interested in micro
generation. So, from that point of view it has succeeded.
I think PV panels will continue to be installed but only the ideal
sites will be used. There are lots of them, about half of all roofs
are suitable.
And the SE of England is clearly one of the bes tplaces.

It might be in the future that some people can only come in to work on
a sunny day or that energy hungry operations are only done on sunny
days.

On Nov 27, 1:41*am, (Andrew Gabriel)
wrote:
In article ,
* * * * harry writes:

Exactly right. My inverter is in the subterranean garage, coldest
place in the building. *The cooling fan only ever runs for a few
minutes at low speed.
Mind, it is rated for up to 40degC environments.

My loft goes up to 55C. Not often. Only when the sun's really strong ;-)


The exact time the inverter will be working hard.

On Nov 26, 8:36*pm, Roger Chapman wrote:
On 26/11/2011 20:20, harry wrote:





On Nov 26, 7:30 pm, Roger *wrote:
On 26/11/2011 19:07, harry wrote:

On Nov 26, 10:05 am, * *wrote:
* *wrote in message

...
On Nov 25, 8:58 am, * *wrote:

I got a quote some 6 months ago for installing PV panels - it was
about £15k for 14(?) panels - ie around £1k per panel.

This BBC article caught my eye as it is local to me

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotlan...-fife-15856440

This quotes £300k for 800 panels, so pro-rata my 14 should have cost
me £5.3k. I'm glad I didn't go ahead. I now know quite why there
were so many cowboys jumping on the bandwagon.

Rob

Economies of scale. Price depends on height/access to building and
other factors.
Panels vary in size, so price per panel is niether here nor there.
And of course BBC are ******s, haven't you realised?

Why are you glad you didn't go ahead at 8% to 12% income from capital
invested?
Now you have missed the bus, not very clever eh?

---------------------------------------------------------------------

With having to write down the capital to zero in 25 years, 8% return for a
quite risky, illiquid investment is rubbish and I don't know why anyone
(except the financially illiterate) thinks otherwise.

(that's looking at it from an individual household pov, from a bulk
installer pov, some of the risks factor out, but even the 8% is only "just
enough").

tim

Well, the scheme has ceased through over subscription.
Over 90,000 have been installed. ie, it was too good a deal to last.
I have had 8% of my money back in 6 months from April 21. *I hope to
get 12% in the full twelve months.
Tell me where I can get 12% return inflation linked and tax free?
Also around 25% reduction in electricity bill.

I would be surprised if you could get more than 11% over the course of a
year and that isn't your return on capital which is appreciably less.

Over the course of 25 years you have to recover the whole of your
£15,000 investment as well as making a sufficient surplus to cover
interest, maintenance costs and eventually decommissioning costs. You
might have invested in pounds Sterling but the return is in pounds
Wilsonian so that part of the deal is certainly not inflation linked
except in a negative way.

There is a long way to go of course but if you are expecting to make 12%
and you have only made 11% then your deemed capital investment has just
gone up by 1%. If you want to settle on 10% then it has gone down by 1%
but it will have to go down much more quickly than that in future years
if you are ever to get the return you have been dreaming about.

--
Roger Chapman- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Well the rate inflationis going I might get it back in five or six
years.

Target inflation is 2.5%. Given the recent failure to hit target
undershooting may be the order of the day once the present mess is
tidied up.

You forgot about the tax free bit, that adds what? 20%?

Only on the net profit and if you make a loss well hard cheese because
you won't get any tax relief on that. You won't know how much of a real
profit you have made until the 25 years is up and you might well see
everything going pear shaped well into the period when you have no
come-back on the installer and repair/replacement costs might be
horrendous if inflation has been as high as you want.

If I left the money in the bank it would be worth less every year.

That's the problem with banks. At least if you put some of in an ISA you
would get the income tax free.

The way the price of electricity is going up,maybe I'll *get it back
in less than that.

Huhne was claiming a bit ago that the price would actually be falling
some years hence. I can't remember the detail.

Tell me how it is going to go "pear shaped",
The cost of fossil energy is going to go up. Especially as our N.Sea
gas dwindles to nothing.
The BRICS are going to be competing for energy too.
If/when the reccession ends, energy demand will rise in the West too
The £ will fall in vlaue by accident or design so pushing our energy
costs up.

Can you believe anything that halfwit Huhne says?

They are clearly trying to get rid of ISAs. The tax saving is offsetby
them being low interest.

On Nov 26, 8:00*pm, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:
harry wrote:
On Nov 26, 7:28 pm, Andy Burns wrote:
harry wrote:
the scheme has ceased [...]it was too good a deal [...]
Too true harry.

Tell me where I can get 12% return inflation linked and tax free?
If it was in the bank, fair enough you would struggle to make 4% on it,
but at least you could get your lump sum back.

Your lump sum is essentially gone, a comparable new system is already
2/3 the price you paid and falling, would be worth even less if you
flogged it secondhand, especially as it wouldn't be "blessed" to give
the new owner FIT payments (unless they paid a licensed installer full
whack to have it re-installed) plus you'll have to pay for maintenance
on it at some point down the line.

Peanuts.
The installations may well come down in price. *However that just
means I would have had a smaller investment and less return as I don't
have enough space to go for the 10KW size.

Definitely not worth moving an array. The repairs to the roof would be
very costly.
Anyway, itis the site that is licensed, not the array.
However adds value to the propery if sold.
Now they have reduced the money given for new installations, if I sold
my house, the desireabilty of it has increased as there will be no
more installations generating this amount of return.

ie I can say I get £1500/year from it whereas post Dec12 ones will
only get £750.

How much is an asset worth that generates £1500 year, tax free
inflation linked?

depends on how long it goes on doing it harry.

How's your insurance policy?



Plus reduced electricity bills.
Anybody that could have got onto this and didn't is mad.-

Well you are among the mad.

On Nov 26, 8:04*pm, Andy Burns wrote:
harry wrote:
How much is an asset worth that generates £1500 year, tax free
inflation linked?

Treat it as an annuity and assume future inflation locked at 3%, its
present value is £26k

Good luck to anyone who's recently spent £13k getting PV installed and
then unexpectedly need to move house, try to slap £26k on the asking
price, then see what the estate agen
t has to say :-)

Plus reduced electricity bills.

Even with that.

Er , I only paid £14,000 not £26,000 so it is a great bargain.

On Nov 27, 6:57 am, harry wrote:
On Nov 27, 1:41 am, (Andrew Gabriel)
wrote:

In article ,
harry writes:

Exactly right. My inverter is in the subterranean garage, coldest
place in the building. The cooling fan only ever runs for a few
minutes at low speed.
Mind, it is rated for up to 40degC environments.

My loft goes up to 55C. Not often. Only when the sun's really strong ;-)

The exact time the inverter will be working hard.

no **** sherlock

Jim K

harry wrote:

Andy wrote:

harry wrote:

How much is an asset worth that generates £1500 year, tax free
inflation linked?

Treat it as an annuity and assume future inflation locked at 3%, its
present value is £26k

Er , I only paid £14,000 not £26,000 so it is a great bargain.

I know it's a paper value, try getting it tomorrow if something
unexpected happens...

harry wrote:

(Andrew Gabriel) wrote:

My loft goes up to 55C. Not often. Only when the sun's really strong ;-)

The exact time the inverter will be working hard.

As the smilie subtly implied ... not often.

On 27/11/2011 07:16, harry wrote:
On Nov 26, 8:04 pm, Andy wrote:
harry wrote:
How much is an asset worth that generates £1500 year, tax free
inflation linked?

Treat it as an annuity and assume future inflation locked at 3%, its
present value is £26k

Good luck to anyone who's recently spent £13k getting PV installed and
then unexpectedly need to move house, try to slap £26k on the asking
price, then see what the estate agen
t has to say :-)

Plus reduced electricity bills.

Even with that.

Er , I only paid £14,000 not £26,000 so it is a great bargain.

The only thing that can go wrong with an annuity is the company paying
it going bust. The risks are much greater with your panels so the return
needs to be considerably higher to compensate for the increased risk.

--
Roger Chapman

harry wrote:

The point of the present scheme was to get people interested in micro
generation. So, from that point of view it has succeeded.
I think PV panels will continue to be installed but only the ideal
sites will be used. There are lots of them, about half of all roofs
are suitable.
And the SE of England is clearly one of the bes tplaces.

Here's an image posted to another group,

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/11023364/electric%20bill%20payers%27%20money%203.jpg

original comment ...

these particular photovoltaic panels shouldn't cost us too much,
since they face slightly north of east! The roof pitch is quite
shallow so they will never even properly face the low sun as it
rises. The main pic was taken at 11.55am.

some will know that Bill Wright isn't a fan of resizing huge images, so
beware if your bandwith is solar powered on this dingy morning

On 27/11/2011 07:09, harry wrote:

Tell me how it is going to go "pear shaped",
The cost of fossil energy is going to go up. Especially as our N.Sea
gas dwindles to nothing.

New technology comes along and previously uneconomic fuel sources
suddenly become dirt cheap - methane hydrates perhaps.

CND gets banned as a subversive organisation and TNP gets the chance to
build dozens of nuclear power stations round the coast of England and Wales.

Against all the odds the deniers get proved right and AGW turns out to
be a flawed theory or, more likely, AGW is overtaken by the next Ice Age
which, by some counts at least, is already overdue.
--
Roger Chapman

Roger Chapman wrote:
On 27/11/2011 07:09, harry wrote:

Tell me how it is going to go "pear shaped",
The cost of fossil energy is going to go up. Especially as our N.Sea
gas dwindles to nothing.

New technology comes along and previously uneconomic fuel sources
suddenly become dirt cheap - methane hydrates perhaps.

CND gets banned as a subversive organisation and TNP gets the chance to
build dozens of nuclear power stations round the coast of England and
Wales.

Against all the odds the deniers get proved right and AGW turns out to
be a flawed theory or, more likely, AGW is overtaken by the next Ice Age
which, by some counts at least, is already overdue.

Probably all of the above.

Huge wrote:

I wouldn't be at all surprised to find out that having PV panels *detracts*
from the value of a house, never mind adds to it.

I might be generous and count it as worth a couple of years FITs, but it
would have to be an inconspicuous installation to even be considered.

I wouldn't buy a house that had one of those "rent a roof" schemes in place

Me neither.

"Roger Chapman" wrote in message
...

Against all the odds the deniers get proved right and AGW turns out to be
a flawed theory or, more likely, AGW is overtaken by the next Ice Age
which, by some counts at least, is already overdue.

There are already reports that are backing away from the CO2 GW claims.
There are even claims that CO2 behaves differently when the climate is cold
to when the climate is hot, just to avoid the consequences of the data not
supporting AGW. So who are the deniers?

On Nov 27, 8:40*am, Andy Burns wrote:
harry wrote:
Andy *wrote:

harry wrote:

How much is an asset worth that generates £1500 year, tax free
inflation linked?

Treat it as an annuity and assume future inflation locked at 3%, its
present value is £26k

Er , I only paid £14,000 not £26,000 so it is a great bargain.

I know it's a paper value, try getting it tomorrow if something
unexpected happens...


I'll just nip down the building society if I want some money for the
unexpected.

A house cannot be liquidated either. If you sell it you will have to
buy another or rent one at little saving in outgoings.
Apart from "market" speculation, I think a house is the only single
thing you can buy that will increase in value tax free long term.

What if I went out and bought a car? Poor economics there.

On Nov 27, 8:48*am, Roger Chapman wrote:
On 27/11/2011 07:16, harry wrote:





On Nov 26, 8:04 pm, Andy *wrote:
harry wrote:
How much is an asset worth that generates £1500 year, tax free
inflation linked?

Treat it as an annuity and assume future inflation locked at 3%, its
present value is £26k

Good luck to anyone who's recently spent £13k getting PV installed and
then unexpectedly need to move house, try to slap £26k on the asking
price, then see what the estate agen
t has to say :-)

Plus reduced electricity bills.

Even with that.

Er , I only paid £14,000 not £26,000 so it is a great bargain.

The only thing that can go wrong with an annuity is the company paying
it going bust. The risks are much greater with your panels so the return
needs to be considerably higher to compensate for the increased risk.

--
Roger Chapman- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Fairly likely to go bust these days.
Technical risks are easier to assess.

On 27/11/2011 12:33, dennis@home wrote:

Against all the odds the deniers get proved right and AGW turns out to
be a flawed theory or, more likely, AGW is overtaken by the next Ice
Age which, by some counts at least, is already overdue.

There are already reports that are backing away from the CO2 GW claims.
There are even claims that CO2 behaves differently when the climate is
cold to when the climate is hot, just to avoid the consequences of the
data not supporting AGW. So who are the deniers?

But the data does support AGW. The sensible opposition argue that its
effects are much less than the mainstream consensus currently believes.
The deniers include those who do not accept either that CO2 is a
greenhouse gas or that the greenhouse effect doesn't exist and the
fundamentalist deniers who claim the world hasn't actually been warming
at all over the last 150 years.

--
Roger Chapman

On Nov 27, 8:50*am, Andy Burns wrote:
harry wrote:
The point of the present scheme was to get people interested in micro
generation. *So, from that point of view it has succeeded.
I think PV panels will continue to be installed but only the ideal
sites will be used. *There are lots of them, about half of all roofs
are suitable.
And the SE of England is clearly one of the bes tplaces.

Here's an image posted to another group,

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/11023364/electric%20bill%20payers%27%20money%...

original comment ...

these particular photovoltaic panels shouldn't cost us too much,
since they face slightly north of east! The roof pitch is quite
shallow so they will never even properly face the low sun as it
rises. The main pic was taken at 11.55am.

some will know that Bill Wright isn't a fan of resizing huge images, so
beware if your bandwith is solar powered on this dingy morning

Well far from ideal. I expect they'll get around half the money/
output an ideally orientated array would give. I have a chart
somewhere ifyou want an exact figure.

"harry" wrote in message
...
On Nov 27, 8:40 am, Andy Burns wrote:
harry wrote:
Andy wrote:

harry wrote:

How much is an asset worth that generates £1500 year, tax free
inflation linked?

Treat it as an annuity and assume future inflation locked at 3%, its
present value is £26k

Er , I only paid £14,000 not £26,000 so it is a great bargain.

I know it's a paper value, try getting it tomorrow if something
unexpected happens...


I'll just nip down the building society if I want some money for the
unexpected.

A house cannot be liquidated either. If you sell it you will have to
buy another or rent one at little saving in outgoings.
Apart from "market" speculation, I think a house is the only single
thing you can buy that will increase in value tax free long term.

--------------------------------------------------------------

I don't think he literally meant "tomorrow".

He means that you will have to wait to find a buyer from the subset of
people who are prepared to buy BOTH your house and the solar panel
investment.

You could wait forever for this person to come along

tim

On Nov 27, 9:01*am, Roger Chapman wrote:
On 27/11/2011 07:09, harry wrote:

Tell me how it is going to go "pear shaped",
The cost of fossil energy is going to go up. Especially as our N.Sea
gas dwindles to nothing.

New technology comes along and previously uneconomic fuel sources
suddenly become dirt cheap - methane hydrates perhaps.

CND gets banned as a subversive organisation and TNP gets the chance to
build dozens of nuclear power stations round the coast of England and Wales.

Against all the odds the deniers get proved right and AGW turns out to
be a flawed theory or, more likely, AGW is overtaken by the next Ice Age
which, by some counts at least, is already overdue.
--
Roger Chapman

If it was uneconomic it will become economic as energy prices rise.
My point exactly.
Old gas/oil wells are re-opened regularly as rising prices make them
economic where they weren't previously.

This shale gas seems to be a damp squib,
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/06/26/us...pagewanted=all

On Nov 27, 8:44*am, Andy Burns wrote:
harry wrote:
(Andrew Gabriel) wrote:

My loft goes up to 55C. Not often. Only when the sun's really strong ;-)

The exact time the inverter will be working hard.

As the smilie subtly implied ... not often.

Well the sun shines round here, (and has been all day today)
Where are you? Wales?

Roger Chapman wrote:
On 27/11/2011 12:33, dennis@home wrote:

Against all the odds the deniers get proved right and AGW turns out to
be a flawed theory or, more likely, AGW is overtaken by the next Ice
Age which, by some counts at least, is already overdue.

There are already reports that are backing away from the CO2 GW claims.
There are even claims that CO2 behaves differently when the climate is
cold to when the climate is hot, just to avoid the consequences of the
data not supporting AGW. So who are the deniers?

But the data does support AGW.

The data supporst SOME AGW, but in reality it cant be all CO2 or the
historical record would not be the way it is .

"Simething is happening here,
But you dont (quite) know what it is
Do you, Mr Jones?"


The sensible opposition argue that its
effects are much less than the mainstream consensus currently believes.
The deniers include those who do not accept either that CO2 is a
greenhouse gas or that the greenhouse effect doesn't exist and the
fundamentalist deniers who claim the world hasn't actually been warming
at all over the last 150 years.


That would be the correct definition of a denier, but in reality its
applied to anyone who doesn't believe totally that AGW is the main
driver of modern climate warming, or that the IPCC's predictions are
anything less than 100% reliable.
..

harry wrote:
On Nov 27, 9:01 am, Roger Chapman wrote:
On 27/11/2011 07:09, harry wrote:

Tell me how it is going to go "pear shaped",
The cost of fossil energy is going to go up. Especially as our N.Sea
gas dwindles to nothing.
New technology comes along and previously uneconomic fuel sources
suddenly become dirt cheap - methane hydrates perhaps.

CND gets banned as a subversive organisation and TNP gets the chance to
build dozens of nuclear power stations round the coast of England and Wales.

Against all the odds the deniers get proved right and AGW turns out to
be a flawed theory or, more likely, AGW is overtaken by the next Ice Age
which, by some counts at least, is already overdue.
--
Roger Chapman

If it was uneconomic it will become economic as energy prices rise.
My point exactly.

If energy prices rose to the point where solar was economic, this
country would be a third world wasteland.


Old gas/oil wells are re-opened regularly as rising prices make them
economic where they weren't previously.

This shale gas seems to be a damp squib,
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/06/26/us...pagewanted=all

The NY times is a well known anti oil, anti- nuclear green spin outfit,
it's more 'Guardian' than the Guardian, if that is possible.

harry wrote:

On Nov 27, 8:50 am, Andy wrote:

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/11023364/electric%20bill%20payers%27%20money%...

Well far from ideal. I expect they'll get around half the money/
output an ideally orientated array would give. I have a chart
somewhere ifyou want an exact figure.

The estimator at

http://re.jrc.ec.europa.eu/pvgis/

claimed 655kWh per year per kW of installed capacity, so worth 68p/day
at non-FIT rates.