Hello helpful people,

I have a few questions regarding our converted loft which is currently
my bedroom!

Situation: No insulation between rafters at all, this makes the room
feel very very cold in winter (drops to around 8ºc in the cold). There
is only a small amount of insulation under the floorboards between the
joists, it's extremely old and has turned black with dirt/dust. There
is a 1.7kw radiator in the room which does heat the room to a
comfortable temperature but an awful amount of heat is lost from the
roof - snow melts quicker than any other house on the street.

The ideal solution I am told is to remove all insulation between
joists, removed plasterboard which is covering the rafters and
insulate using Kingspan or Celotex boards and then fix the boards back
on.

However this will cause a lot of upheaval to the room which is not
desirable.

I am thinking of a good compromise that could be made. In loft space
there are storage compartments which can be accessed from doors in the
loft like this:

http://i363.photobucket.com/albums/o...9092011001.jpg

The storage space looks like this inside:

http://i363.photobucket.com/albums/o...8072011003.jpg

Walls of the room (view from storage area)

http://i363.photobucket.com/albums/o...8072011005.jpg

In this picture here you can see: http://i363.photobucket.com/albums/o...72011004-1.jpg

The arrow points to a gap which can be accessed from all the storage
areas.

Would it be possible to slide some insulation board up these gaps to
at least stop the heat loss from the main heated part of the loft?

Would there be problems with damp?

I hope you can visualise what I am talking about.

Thanks

snip

Apologies, first set of links don't work.

Corrected links:

Access to storage area:

http://i363.photobucket.com/albums/o...9092011001.jpg

Inside storage area:

http://i363.photobucket.com/albums/o...8072011003.jpg

Rear view of plasterboard which are the walls of the room:

http://i363.photobucket.com/albums/o...8072011005.jpg

Proposed place to slide insulation up:

http://i363.photobucket.com/albums/o...8072011004.jpg

On 09/09/2011 18:40, David wrote:
Hello helpful people,

I have a few questions regarding our converted loft which is currently
my bedroom!

Situation: No insulation between rafters at all, this makes the room
feel very very cold in winter (drops to around 8ºc in the cold). There
is only a small amount of insulation under the floorboards between the
joists, it's extremely old and has turned black with dirt/dust. There
is a 1.7kw radiator in the room which does heat the room to a
comfortable temperature but an awful amount of heat is lost from the
roof - snow melts quicker than any other house on the street.

The ideal solution I am told is to remove all insulation between
joists, removed plasterboard which is covering the rafters and
insulate using Kingspan or Celotex boards and then fix the boards back
on.

However this will cause a lot of upheaval to the room which is not
desirable.

I am thinking of a good compromise that could be made. In loft space
there are storage compartments which can be accessed from doors in the
loft like this:

http://i363.photobucket.com/albums/o...9092011001.jpg

The storage space looks like this inside:

http://i363.photobucket.com/albums/o...8072011003.jpg

Walls of the room (view from storage area)

http://i363.photobucket.com/albums/o...8072011005.jpg

In this picture here you can see: http://i363.photobucket.com/albums/o...72011004-1.jpg

The arrow points to a gap which can be accessed from all the storage
areas.

Would it be possible to slide some insulation board up these gaps to
at least stop the heat loss from the main heated part of the loft?

Yes.

Would there be problems with damp?

You need to leave a gap between the insulation and the underfelt - that
will allow air to circulate against the rafters and keep them dry.
Ideally you would need soffit and ridge vents as well. However you may
be able to get away with stripping out some felt top and bottom.

One option would be to clad the inside with PIR foam backed plasterboard
and reskim. Less upheaval, but a loss of a couple of inches of space.

Ideally you would need at least 85 (possibly more - not looked for a few
years) of PIR foam insulation under the rafters to achieve modern
building regs standards. However even 50mm would make a massive difference.

When I did mine, I did 50mm gap, and then 50mm PIR board between the
rafters, and then 30mm underlayer.

http://www.internode.co.uk/loft/insulating.htm


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 09/09/2011 18:53, David wrote:
snip

Apologies, first set of links don't work.

Corrected links:

Access to storage area:

http://i363.photobucket.com/albums/o...9092011001.jpg

Inside storage area:

http://i363.photobucket.com/albums/o...8072011003.jpg

Rear view of plasterboard which are the walls of the room:

http://i363.photobucket.com/albums/o...8072011005.jpg

Proposed place to slide insulation up:

http://i363.photobucket.com/albums/o...8072011004.jpg


Should have also said - be wary about taking insulation out from under
the floor if this is a second floor conversion. It may be there as much
to act as a fire break than for insulation!

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

David wrote:
Hello helpful people,

I have a few questions regarding our converted loft which is currently
my bedroom!

Situation: No insulation between rafters at all, this makes the room
feel very very cold in winter (drops to around 8ºc in the cold). There
is only a small amount of insulation under the floorboards between the
joists, it's extremely old and has turned black with dirt/dust. There
is a 1.7kw radiator in the room which does heat the room to a
comfortable temperature but an awful amount of heat is lost from the
roof - snow melts quicker than any other house on the street.

The ideal solution I am told is to remove all insulation between
joists, removed plasterboard which is covering the rafters and
insulate using Kingspan or Celotex boards and then fix the boards back
on.

However this will cause a lot of upheaval to the room which is not
desirable.

I am thinking of a good compromise that could be made. In loft space
there are storage compartments which can be accessed from doors in the
loft like this:

http://i363.photobucket.com/albums/o...9092011001.jpg

The storage space looks like this inside:

http://i363.photobucket.com/albums/o...8072011003.jpg

Walls of the room (view from storage area)

http://i363.photobucket.com/albums/o...8072011005.jpg

In this picture here you can see: http://i363.photobucket.com/albums/o...72011004-1.jpg

The arrow points to a gap which can be accessed from all the storage
areas.

Would it be possible to slide some insulation board up these gaps to
at least stop the heat loss from the main heated part of the loft?

Would there be problems with damp?

I hope you can visualise what I am talking about.


I can but please dont.

Insulation that isn't totally airproof is almost useless.

If you cat face stripping the ceiling, dry line it.


Thanks

The Natural Philosopher wrote:
David wrote:
Hello helpful people,

I have a few questions regarding our converted loft which is
currently my bedroom!

Situation: No insulation between rafters at all, this makes the room
feel very very cold in winter (drops to around 8ºc in the cold).
There is only a small amount of insulation under the floorboards between
the joists, it's extremely old and has turned black with dirt/dust. There
is a 1.7kw radiator in the room which does heat the room to a
comfortable temperature but an awful amount of heat is lost from the
roof - snow melts quicker than any other house on the street.

The ideal solution I am told is to remove all insulation between
joists, removed plasterboard which is covering the rafters and
insulate using Kingspan or Celotex boards and then fix the boards
back on.

However this will cause a lot of upheaval to the room which is not
desirable.

I am thinking of a good compromise that could be made. In loft space
there are storage compartments which can be accessed from doors in
the loft like this:

http://i363.photobucket.com/albums/o...9092011001.jpg

The storage space looks like this inside:

http://i363.photobucket.com/albums/o...8072011003.jpg

Walls of the room (view from storage area)

http://i363.photobucket.com/albums/o...8072011005.jpg

In this picture here you can see:
http://i363.photobucket.com/albums/o...72011004-1.jpg The
arrow points to a gap which can be accessed from all the storage
areas.

Would it be possible to slide some insulation board up these gaps to
at least stop the heat loss from the main heated part of the loft?

Would there be problems with damp?

I hope you can visualise what I am talking about.


I can but please dont.

Insulation that isn't totally airproof is almost useless.

If you cat face stripping the ceiling, dry line it.



I agree, dog face.
:-p

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
David wrote:
Hello helpful people,

I have a few questions regarding our converted loft which is currently
my bedroom!

Situation: No insulation between rafters at all, this makes the room
feel very very cold in winter (drops to around 8ºc in the cold). There
is only a small amount of insulation under the floorboards between the
joists, it's extremely old and has turned black with dirt/dust. There
is a 1.7kw radiator in the room which does heat the room to a
comfortable temperature but an awful amount of heat is lost from the
roof - snow melts quicker than any other house on the street.

The ideal solution I am told is to remove all insulation between
joists, removed plasterboard which is covering the rafters and
insulate using Kingspan or Celotex boards and then fix the boards back
on.

However this will cause a lot of upheaval to the room which is not
desirable.

I am thinking of a good compromise that could be made. In loft space
there are storage compartments which can be accessed from doors in the
loft like this:

http://i363.photobucket.com/albums/o...9092011001.jpg

The storage space looks like this inside:

http://i363.photobucket.com/albums/o...8072011003.jpg

Walls of the room (view from storage area)

http://i363.photobucket.com/albums/o...8072011005.jpg

In this picture here you can see:
http://i363.photobucket.com/albums/o...72011004-1.jpg

The arrow points to a gap which can be accessed from all the storage
areas.

Would it be possible to slide some insulation board up these gaps to
at least stop the heat loss from the main heated part of the loft?

Would there be problems with damp?

I hope you can visualise what I am talking about.


I can but please dont.

Insulation that isn't totally airproof is almost useless.

I don't understand this comment.

Normal loft insulation is open to the air (on one side) but isn't useless

tim

tim.... wrote:

"The Natural wrote:

Insulation that isn't totally airproof is almost useless.

I don't understand this comment.
Normal loft insulation is open to the air (on one side) but isn't useless

But if air can circulate around gaps in the insulation, heat doesn't
have to permeate through the insulation, and just shoving insulation up
those slots and hoping, rather than being able to tape and foam it will
lead to gaps.

On Sep 9, 8:09*pm, "tim...." wrote:
"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in ...





David wrote:
Hello helpful people,

I have a few questions regarding our converted loft which is currently
my bedroom!

Situation: No insulation between rafters at all, this makes the room
feel very very cold in winter (drops to around 8ºc in the cold). There
is only a small amount of insulation under the floorboards between the
joists, it's extremely old and has turned black with dirt/dust. There
is a 1.7kw radiator in the room which does heat the room to a
comfortable temperature but an awful amount of heat is lost from the
roof - snow melts quicker than any other house on the street.

The ideal solution I am told is to remove all insulation between
joists, removed plasterboard which is covering the rafters and
insulate using Kingspan or Celotex boards and then fix the boards back
on.

However this will cause a lot of upheaval to the room which is not
desirable.

I am thinking of a good compromise that could be made. In loft space
there are storage compartments which can be accessed from doors in the
loft like this:

http://i363.photobucket.com/albums/o...9092011001.jpg

The storage space looks like this inside:

http://i363.photobucket.com/albums/o...8072011003.jpg

Walls of the room (view from storage area)

http://i363.photobucket.com/albums/o...8072011005.jpg

In this picture here you can see:
http://i363.photobucket.com/albums/o...72011004-1.jpg

The arrow points to a gap which can be accessed from all the storage
areas.

Would it be possible to slide some insulation board up these gaps to
at least stop the heat loss from the main heated part of the loft?

Would there be problems with damp?

I hope you can visualise what I am talking about.

I can but please dont.

Insulation that isn't totally airproof is almost useless.

I don't understand this comment.

Normal loft insulation *is open to the air (on one side) but isn't useless

tim- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

He means there needs to be no gaps, ie airtight joins. Exactly so.
There are no easy solutions. The work should have been done at the
time of the conversion. It was just incompetence that it wasn't. Now
you are paying for the incompetence.

snip

Thank you for all your replies.

So the conclusion is, sliding some insulation up the said gap would
not work; it needs to be completely airtight.

I have considered drylining but to be honest I am not very confident
in doing it myself and I am considering calling someone in to give an
estimate now. The loft was done in 2001-2002 and was used as an office
until late 2006.

On Sep 10, 3:01*pm, David wrote:
snip

Thank you for all your replies.

So the conclusion is, sliding some insulation up the said gap would
not work; it needs to be completely airtight.

I have considered drylining but to be honest I am not very confident
in doing it myself and I am considering calling someone in to give an
estimate now. The loft was done in 2001-2002 and was used as an office
until late 2006.

Do it properly. Strip the room and fit as much rigid insulation
between rafters to leave a 50 mm air gap between the insulation and
the tile underfelt. Seal the gaps with spray foam. Then if possible
put 30-40 mm insulation under the rafters. Then screw tapered edge
plasterboard through the 30-40 mm insulation into the rafters.
If money is tight tape the plasterboard joints yourself and fit
flexible (rather than rigid) insulation between the floor joists.
Check out the many suppliers of 'seconds' rigid insulation. They just
have dings and rough edges.

On 10/09/2011 15:01, David wrote:
snip

Thank you for all your replies.

So the conclusion is, sliding some insulation up the said gap would
not work; it needs to be completely airtight.

I am not as pessimistic as some. If you slid solid foam insulation up,
so that it was a snug fit between the rafters, and was in contact with
the plasterboard, then the air currents would be on the reverse side of
the board. This would not particularly reduce its effectiveness.

The only time air passage is going to be a problem is when you get
circulation from the warm side to the cool side such that it circumvents
the insulation. With the insulation hard against the inner skin, that
can't really happen even if the coverage is not perfectly air tight.

I have considered drylining but to be honest I am not very confident
in doing it myself and I am considering calling someone in to give an
estimate now. The loft was done in 2001-2002 and was used as an office
until late 2006.

Dry lining would be fairly simple. Mark out the rafter positions, get
some long screws and some taper edge insulation backed plasterboard.
Screw the new boards to the rafters through the old. Tape and fill the
joints, sand off when done.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

I have considered drylining but to be honest I am not very confident
in doing it myself and I am considering calling someone in to give an
estimate now. The loft was done in 2001-2002 and was used as an office
until late 2006.

Dry lining would be fairly simple. Mark out the rafter positions, get
some long screws and some taper edge insulation backed plasterboard.
Screw the new boards to the rafters through the old. Tape and fill the
joints, sand off when done.

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| * * * * *Internode Ltd - *http://www.internode.co.uk* * * * * *|
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| * * * *John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk * * * * * * *|
\================================================= ================/

Can you recommend any particular brand of insulation backed
plasterboard? It seems a nice solution, any skimming required after
the plasterboard has all been screwed in before painting?

Sorry I don't really have much experience with this sort of thing at
my age but it seems like a nice project for me especially if it will
make my room feel warmer.

On 10/09/2011 20:49, David wrote:

Dry lining would be fairly simple. Mark out the rafter positions, get
some long screws and some taper edge insulation backed plasterboard.
Screw the new boards to the rafters through the old. Tape and fill the
joints, sand off when done.

Can you recommend any particular brand of insulation backed
plasterboard? It seems a nice solution, any skimming required after
the plasterboard has all been screwed in before painting?

I suspect it will be a case of take whatever the builders merchant has.
While there are lots of brands on insulation, there are only a few big
makers of plasterboard.

The insulation bonded PB will be easier to use. Separate insulation
boards and PB will probably be cheaper.

Sorry I don't really have much experience with this sort of thing at
my age but it seems like a nice project for me especially if it will
make my room feel warmer.

Compared to no insulation, even 50mm of PIR foam insulation will make a
very significant difference.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 10 Sep, 07:29, harry wrote:
On Sep 9, 8:09*pm, "tim...." wrote:









"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in ...

David wrote:
Hello helpful people,

I have a few questions regarding our converted loft which is currently
my bedroom!

Situation: No insulation between rafters at all, this makes the room
feel very very cold in winter (drops to around 8ºc in the cold). There
is only a small amount of insulation under the floorboards between the
joists, it's extremely old and has turned black with dirt/dust. There
is a 1.7kw radiator in the room which does heat the room to a
comfortable temperature but an awful amount of heat is lost from the
roof - snow melts quicker than any other house on the street.

The ideal solution I am told is to remove all insulation between
joists, removed plasterboard which is covering the rafters and
insulate using Kingspan or Celotex boards and then fix the boards back
on.

However this will cause a lot of upheaval to the room which is not
desirable.

I am thinking of a good compromise that could be made. In loft space
there are storage compartments which can be accessed from doors in the
loft like this:

http://i363.photobucket.com/albums/o...9092011001.jpg

The storage space looks like this inside:

http://i363.photobucket.com/albums/o...8072011003.jpg

Walls of the room (view from storage area)

http://i363.photobucket.com/albums/o...8072011005.jpg

In this picture here you can see:
http://i363.photobucket.com/albums/o...72011004-1.jpg

The arrow points to a gap which can be accessed from all the storage
areas.

Would it be possible to slide some insulation board up these gaps to
at least stop the heat loss from the main heated part of the loft?

Would there be problems with damp?

I hope you can visualise what I am talking about.

I can but please dont.

Insulation that isn't totally airproof is almost useless.

I don't understand this comment.

Normal loft insulation *is open to the air (on one side) but isn't useless

tim- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

He means there needs to be no gaps, ie airtight joins. Exactly so.
There are no easy solutions. The work should have been done at the
time of the conversion. It was just incompetence that it wasn't. Now
you are paying for the incompetence.

Surely this is b****x.

If put a coat on and don't button it up it still keeps me warmer than
no coat at all. Perhaps ideally it should be air tight but even then
an element of air flow might be desirable

Paul Mc Cann

On Sun, 11 Sep 2011 00:29:05 -0700 (PDT), fred wrote:

On 10 Sep, 07:29, harry wrote:
On Sep 9, 8:09*pm, "tim...." wrote:









"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in ...

David wrote:
Hello helpful people,

I have a few questions regarding our converted loft which is currently
my bedroom!

Situation: No insulation between rafters at all, this makes the room
feel very very cold in winter (drops to around 8ºc in the cold). There
is only a small amount of insulation under the floorboards between the
joists, it's extremely old and has turned black with dirt/dust. There
is a 1.7kw radiator in the room which does heat the room to a
comfortable temperature but an awful amount of heat is lost from the
roof - snow melts quicker than any other house on the street.

The ideal solution I am told is to remove all insulation between
joists, removed plasterboard which is covering the rafters and
insulate using Kingspan or Celotex boards and then fix the boards back
on.

However this will cause a lot of upheaval to the room which is not
desirable.

I am thinking of a good compromise that could be made. In loft space
there are storage compartments which can be accessed from doors in the
loft like this:

http://i363.photobucket.com/albums/o...9092011001.jpg

The storage space looks like this inside:

http://i363.photobucket.com/albums/o...8072011003.jpg

Walls of the room (view from storage area)

http://i363.photobucket.com/albums/o...8072011005.jpg

In this picture here you can see:
http://i363.photobucket.com/albums/o...72011004-1.jpg

The arrow points to a gap which can be accessed from all the storage
areas.

Would it be possible to slide some insulation board up these gaps to
at least stop the heat loss from the main heated part of the loft?

Would there be problems with damp?

I hope you can visualise what I am talking about.

I can but please dont.

Insulation that isn't totally airproof is almost useless.

I don't understand this comment.

Normal loft insulation *is open to the air (on one side) but isn't useless

tim- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

He means there needs to be no gaps, ie airtight joins. Exactly so.
There are no easy solutions. The work should have been done at the
time of the conversion. It was just incompetence that it wasn't. Now
you are paying for the incompetence.

Surely this is b****x.

If put a coat on and don't button it up it still keeps me warmer than
no coat at all. Perhaps ideally it should be air tight but even then
an element of air flow might be desirable

Paul Mc Cann

That's my feeling too. I noticed how much difference vertical blinds made -
and they're about the worst 'sealed' of anything. Adding net curtains
(again, no sealing) resulted in a lot more ice on the windows under
like-for-like conditions. I assume that this is due to the convection being
greatly reduced, as the 'waterfall' of cold air became imperceptable.
--
Peter.
The gods will stay away
whilst religions hold sway

On Sun, 11 Sep 2011 00:29:05 -0700 (PDT), fred
wrote:

He means there needs to be no gaps, ie airtight joins. Exactly so.
There are no easy solutions. The work should have been done at the
time of the conversion. It was just incompetence that it wasn't. Now
you are paying for the incompetence.

Surely this is b****x.

If put a coat on and don't button it up it still keeps me warmer than
no coat at all. Perhaps ideally it should be air tight but even then
an element of air flow might be desirable

It's only partially ********. The efficacy of board-type insulation is
reduced by air gaps, but in the 10-20% range, iirc. Mind you, that 20%
can amount to a fair cost in heating fuel over a few years.

On Sep 10, 4:29*pm, John Rumm wrote:
On 10/09/2011 15:01, David wrote:

snip

Thank you for all your replies.

So the conclusion is, sliding some insulation up the said gap would
not work; it needs to be completely airtight.

I am not as pessimistic as some. If you slid solid foam insulation up,
so that it was a snug fit between the rafters, and was in contact with
the plasterboard, then the air currents would be on the reverse side of
the board. This would not particularly reduce its effectiveness.

The only time air passage is going to be a problem is when you get
circulation from the warm side to the cool side such that it circumvents
the insulation. With the insulation hard against the inner skin, that
can't really happen even if the coverage is not perfectly air tight.

Hi John, sorry I didn't see this part of your reply last night. Maybe
should stick with my first plan then, like I said I am making a
compromise and even a small difference would be nice! So I could in
actual fact slide something like this:

http://buildingsuppliesdirect.co.uk/...Foilboard/4163

....snugly between the rafters and flush with the plasterboard leaving
a gap on the reverse.

Hopefully this will make for a warmer room and house and me not
feeling bad seeing the snow melt on the roof quicker than anyone else
(even those who have loft conversion)

snip

On Sep 11, 12:04*pm, Grimly Curmudgeon
wrote:
On Sun, 11 Sep 2011 00:29:05 -0700 (PDT), fred
wrote:

He means there needs to be no gaps, ie airtight joins. Exactly so.
There are no easy solutions. The work should have been done at the
time of the conversion. It was just incompetence that it wasn't. Now
you are paying for the incompetence.

Surely this is b****x.

If *put a coat on and don't button it up it still keeps me warmer than
no coat at all. Perhaps ideally it should be air tight but even then
an element of air flow might be desirable

It's only partially ********. The efficacy of board-type insulation is
reduced by air gaps, but in the 10-20% range, iirc. Mind you, that 20%
can amount to a fair cost in heating fuel over a few years.

But still, it will be better than absolutely nothing at all right?

On Sun, 11 Sep 2011 04:28:29 -0700 (PDT), David
wrote:

It's only partially ********. The efficacy of board-type insulation is
reduced by air gaps, but in the 10-20% range, iirc. Mind you, that 20%
can amount to a fair cost in heating fuel over a few years.

But still, it will be better than absolutely nothing at all right?

Well, yes; but a bit of care during installation gets rid of the
potential 20% loss.

On 11/09/2011 12:25, David wrote:
On Sep 10, 4:29 pm, John wrote:
On 10/09/2011 15:01, David wrote:

snip

Thank you for all your replies.

So the conclusion is, sliding some insulation up the said gap would
not work; it needs to be completely airtight.

I am not as pessimistic as some. If you slid solid foam insulation up,
so that it was a snug fit between the rafters, and was in contact with
the plasterboard, then the air currents would be on the reverse side of
the board. This would not particularly reduce its effectiveness.

The only time air passage is going to be a problem is when you get
circulation from the warm side to the cool side such that it circumvents
the insulation. With the insulation hard against the inner skin, that
can't really happen even if the coverage is not perfectly air tight.

Hi John, sorry I didn't see this part of your reply last night. Maybe
should stick with my first plan then, like I said I am making a
compromise and even a small difference would be nice! So I could in
actual fact slide something like this:

http://buildingsuppliesdirect.co.uk/...Foilboard/4163

...snugly between the rafters and flush with the plasterboard leaving
a gap on the reverse.

Yup, although I would not want to pay £30 for it! (£15 tops)



--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 10 Sep, 16:29, John Rumm wrote:
On 10/09/2011 15:01, David wrote:

snip

Thank you for all your replies.

So the conclusion is, sliding some insulation up the said gap would
not work; it needs to be completely airtight.

I am not as pessimistic as some. If you slid solid foam insulation up,
so that it was a snug fit between the rafters, and was in contact with
the plasterboard, then the air currents would be on the reverse side of
the board. This would not particularly reduce its effectiveness.

The only time air passage is going to be a problem is when you get
circulation from the warm side to the cool side such that it circumvents
the insulation. With the insulation hard against the inner skin, that
can't really happen even if the coverage is not perfectly air tight.

I have considered drylining but to be honest I am not very confident
in doing it myself and I am considering calling someone in to give an
estimate now. The loft was done in 2001-2002 and was used as an office
until late 2006.

Dry lining would be fairly simple. Mark out the rafter positions, get
some long screws and some taper edge insulation backed plasterboard.
Screw the new boards to the rafters through the old. Tape and fill the
joints, sand off when done.

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| * * * * *Internode Ltd - *http://www.internode.co.uk* * * * * *|
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| * * * *John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk * * * * * * *|
\================================================= ================/

I think if the insulation were cut as a snug fit, it would get stuck
as you tried to push it up. Also there will be some variance in the
gap between any two rafters. Either it will get stuck or you will have
an air gap. If you can bite the bullet and pull the existing PB off,
that's most of the mess out of the way in one session. I really would
do this properly; we did ours to regs (then 5 inches deep) and the
difference is phenominal. You'll thank yourself for doing it.

Cheers
Richard

On 12 Sep, 09:16, geraldthehamster wrote:
On 10 Sep, 16:29, John Rumm wrote:





On 10/09/2011 15:01, David wrote:

snip

Thank you for all your replies.

So the conclusion is, sliding some insulation up the said gap would
not work; it needs to be completely airtight.

I am not as pessimistic as some. If you slid solid foam insulation up,
so that it was a snug fit between the rafters, and was in contact with
the plasterboard, then the air currents would be on the reverse side of
the board. This would not particularly reduce its effectiveness.

The only time air passage is going to be a problem is when you get
circulation from the warm side to the cool side such that it circumvents
the insulation. With the insulation hard against the inner skin, that
can't really happen even if the coverage is not perfectly air tight.

I have considered drylining but to be honest I am not very confident
in doing it myself and I am considering calling someone in to give an
estimate now. The loft was done in 2001-2002 and was used as an office
until late 2006.

Dry lining would be fairly simple. Mark out the rafter positions, get
some long screws and some taper edge insulation backed plasterboard.
Screw the new boards to the rafters through the old. Tape and fill the
joints, sand off when done.

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| * * * * *Internode Ltd - *http://www.internode.co.uk** * * * *|
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| * * * *John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk * * * * * * *|
\================================================= ================/

I think if the insulation were cut as a snug fit, it would get stuck
as you tried to push it up. Also there will be some variance in the
gap between any two rafters. Either it will get stuck or you will have
an air gap. If you can bite the bullet and pull the existing PB off,
that's most of the mess out of the way in one session. I really would
do this properly; we did ours to regs (then 5 inches deep) and the
difference is phenominal. You'll thank yourself for doing it.

Cheers
Richard- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Sorry, I don't mean an air gap. You want an air gap, in the
traditional sense, behind the boards. I meant you'd get gaps between
the boards and the joists, creating cold spots and the potential for
condensation.

Cheers
Richard

if the room underneath is inhabited then you dont have to insulate the
floor.

easiest could be to stick kingspan or celotex to the inside of the walls
or ceilings,
using long screws of pink dryfix foam,
then stick plasterboard to that.

But you'd lose 6 inches.

[g]

On 12 Sep, 11:50, "george [dicegeorge]"
wrote:
if the room underneath is inhabited then you dont have to insulate the
floor.

easiest could be to stick kingspan or celotex to the inside of the walls
or ceilings,
using long screws of pink dryfix foam,
then stick plasterboard to that.

But you'd lose 6 inches.

[g]

As I think someone has already mentioned, insulation in the floor of a
loft conversion is there for fire prevention. I believe this is a
building regs requirement for new conversions above the first floor.

Cheers
Richard

On 12/09/2011 11:01, geraldthehamster wrote:
On 12 Sep, 09:16, wrote:
On 10 Sep, 16:29, John wrote:





On 10/09/2011 15:01, David wrote:

snip

Thank you for all your replies.

So the conclusion is, sliding some insulation up the said gap would
not work; it needs to be completely airtight.

I am not as pessimistic as some. If you slid solid foam insulation up,
so that it was a snug fit between the rafters, and was in contact with
the plasterboard, then the air currents would be on the reverse side of
the board. This would not particularly reduce its effectiveness.

The only time air passage is going to be a problem is when you get
circulation from the warm side to the cool side such that it circumvents
the insulation. With the insulation hard against the inner skin, that
can't really happen even if the coverage is not perfectly air tight.

I have considered drylining but to be honest I am not very confident
in doing it myself and I am considering calling someone in to give an
estimate now. The loft was done in 2001-2002 and was used as an office
until late 2006.

Dry lining would be fairly simple. Mark out the rafter positions, get
some long screws and some taper edge insulation backed plasterboard.
Screw the new boards to the rafters through the old. Tape and fill the
joints, sand off when done.


I think if the insulation were cut as a snug fit, it would get stuck
as you tried to push it up. Also there will be some variance in the
gap between any two rafters. Either it will get stuck or you will have
an air gap. If you can bite the bullet and pull the existing PB off,
that's most of the mess out of the way in one session. I really would
do this properly; we did ours to regs (then 5 inches deep) and the
difference is phenominal. You'll thank yourself for doing it.

Cheers
Richard- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Sorry, I don't mean an air gap. You want an air gap, in the
traditional sense, behind the boards. I meant you'd get gaps between
the boards and the joists, creating cold spots and the potential for
condensation.

I agree, in the sense that yes doing it without the original PB in place
will be easier and more effective. I was just highlighting that with the
insulation in contact with the back of the exiting PB, there will be
little scope for the kind of drafts that would render the insulation
ineffective, since the only air available will be that in the actual
gaps etc. You will get the cold bridging of the joists thought.

I think the order of preference (in terms of results and quality of job)
would be to:

1) strip the existing PB, insulate between and under the rafters, then
re board.

2) Dry line under the existing PB, or

3) attempt to retro fit insulation behind the exiting PB.

Only do 2 if you really can't face 1, and only do 3 if you really can't
afford the loss of headroom from 2!



--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On Sep 12, 1:24*pm, geraldthehamster wrote:
On 12 Sep, 11:50, "george [dicegeorge]"
wrote:

if the room underneath is inhabited then you dont have to insulate the
floor.

easiest could be to stick kingspan or celotex to the inside of the walls
or ceilings,
using long screws of pink dryfix foam,
then stick plasterboard to that.

But you'd lose 6 inches.

[g]

As I think someone has already mentioned, insulation in the floor of a
loft conversion is there for fire prevention. I believe this is a
building regs requirement for new conversions above the first floor.


There are heaps of other building control requirements for loft
conversions creating habitable rooms. This sounds like a very
'informal' conversion.

Robert

On Sep 12, 2:47*pm, John Rumm wrote:
On 12/09/2011 11:01, geraldthehamster wrote:



On 12 Sep, 09:16, *wrote:
On 10 Sep, 16:29, John *wrote:

On 10/09/2011 15:01, David wrote:

snip

Thank you for all your replies.

So the conclusion is, sliding some insulation up the said gap would
not work; it needs to be completely airtight.

I am not as pessimistic as some. If you slid solid foam insulation up,
so that it was a snug fit between the rafters, and was in contact with
the plasterboard, then the air currents would be on the reverse side of
the board. This would not particularly reduce its effectiveness.

The only time air passage is going to be a problem is when you get
circulation from the warm side to the cool side such that it circumvents
the insulation. With the insulation hard against the inner skin, that
can't really happen even if the coverage is not perfectly air tight.

I have considered drylining but to be honest I am not very confident
in doing it myself and I am considering calling someone in to give an
estimate now. The loft was done in 2001-2002 and was used as an office
until late 2006.

Dry lining would be fairly simple. Mark out the rafter positions, get
some long screws and some taper edge insulation backed plasterboard.
Screw the new boards to the rafters through the old. Tape and fill the
joints, sand off when done.
I think if the insulation were cut as a snug fit, it would get stuck
as you tried to push it up. Also there will be some variance in the
gap between any two rafters. Either it will get stuck or you will have
an air gap. If you can bite the bullet and pull the existing PB off,
that's most of the mess out of the way in one session. I really would
do this properly; we did ours to regs (then 5 inches deep) and the
difference is phenominal. You'll thank yourself for doing it.

Cheers
Richard- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Sorry, I don't mean an air gap. You want an air gap, in the
traditional sense, behind the boards. I meant you'd get gaps between
the boards and the joists, creating cold spots and the potential for
condensation.

I agree, in the sense that yes doing it without the original PB in place
will be easier and more effective. I was just highlighting that with the
insulation in contact with the back of the exiting PB, there will be
little scope for the kind of drafts that would render the insulation
ineffective, since the only air available will be that in the actual
gaps etc. You will get the cold bridging of the joists thought.

I think the order of preference (in terms of results and quality of job)
would be to:

1) strip the existing PB, insulate between and under the rafters, then
re board.

2) Dry line under the existing PB, or

3) attempt to retro fit insulation behind the exiting PB.

Only do 2 if you really can't face 1, and only do 3 if you really can't
afford the loss of headroom from 2!

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| * * * * *Internode Ltd - *http://www.internode.co.uk* * * * * *|
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| * * * *John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk * * * * * * *|
\================================================= ================/

To be honest, I would love to strip the whole room, properly fit
insulation etc but it's just not feasible, option 2 would cause a loss
of headroom and that would not be very good seeing as I can *just*
stand upright without touching the ceiling. Anyway, just to confirm,
will this board be okay and can I insulate the walls too?

http://www.screwfix.com/p/pitch-roof...e-x-65mm/28148

On 12/10/2011 21:24, David wrote:
On Sep 12, 2:47 pm, John wrote:

I think the order of preference (in terms of results and quality of job)
would be to:

1) strip the existing PB, insulate between and under the rafters, then
re board.

2) Dry line under the existing PB, or

3) attempt to retro fit insulation behind the exiting PB.

Only do 2 if you really can't face 1, and only do 3 if you really can't
afford the loss of headroom from 2!


To be honest, I would love to strip the whole room, properly fit
insulation etc but it's just not feasible, option 2 would cause a loss
of headroom and that would not be very good seeing as I can *just*
stand upright without touching the ceiling. Anyway, just to confirm,
will this board be okay and can I insulate the walls too?

http://www.screwfix.com/p/pitch-roof...e-x-65mm/28148

Its about twice the price I would want to pay, but would appear to be
the right sort of stuff.

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On Oct 13, 2:00*am, John Rumm wrote:
On 12/10/2011 21:24, David wrote:





On Sep 12, 2:47 pm, John *wrote:
I think the order of preference (in terms of results and quality of job)
would be to:

1) strip the existing PB, insulate between and under the rafters, then
re board.

2) Dry line under the existing PB, or

3) attempt to retro fit insulation behind the exiting PB.

Only do 2 if you really can't face 1, and only do 3 if you really can't
afford the loss of headroom from 2!
To be honest, I would love to strip the whole room, properly fit
insulation etc but it's just not feasible, option 2 would cause a loss
of headroom and that would not be very good seeing as I can *just*
stand upright without touching the ceiling. Anyway, just to confirm,
will this board be okay and can I insulate the walls too?

http://www.screwfix.com/p/pitch-roof...m-centre-x-65m...

Its about twice the price I would want to pay, but would appear to be
the right sort of stuff.

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| * * * * *Internode Ltd - *http://www.internode.co.uk* * * * * *|
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| * * * *John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk * * * * * * *|
\================================================= ================/

Can I ask where you bought yours from? The price shown on the SF
website is for 5 boards but minimum order is 10.

On Oct 13, 5:17*pm, David wrote:
On Oct 13, 2:00*am, John Rumm wrote:





On 12/10/2011 21:24, David wrote:

On Sep 12, 2:47 pm, John *wrote:
I think the order of preference (in terms of results and quality of job)
would be to:

1) strip the existing PB, insulate between and under the rafters, then
re board.

2) Dry line under the existing PB, or

3) attempt to retro fit insulation behind the exiting PB.

Only do 2 if you really can't face 1, and only do 3 if you really can't
afford the loss of headroom from 2!
To be honest, I would love to strip the whole room, properly fit
insulation etc but it's just not feasible, option 2 would cause a loss
of headroom and that would not be very good seeing as I can *just*
stand upright without touching the ceiling. Anyway, just to confirm,
will this board be okay and can I insulate the walls too?

http://www.screwfix.com/p/pitch-roof...m-centre-x-65m....

Its about twice the price I would want to pay, but would appear to be
the right sort of stuff.

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| * * * * *Internode Ltd - *http://www.internode.co.uk** * * * *|
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| * * * *John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk * * * * * * *|
\================================================= ================/

Can I ask where you bought yours from? The price shown on the SF
website is for 5 boards but minimum order is 10.

Actually BnQ have quite a variety at what seems to be a good price.
Also the depth of the rafters is 80mm, would 60mm insulation cause any
damp?

http://search.diy.com/search#w=InsulAtion%20board

On 13/10/2011 17:31, David wrote:
On Oct 13, 5:17 pm, wrote:
On Oct 13, 2:00 am, John wrote:


On 12/10/2011 21:24, David wrote:

To be honest, I would love to strip the whole room, properly fit
insulation etc but it's just not feasible, option 2 would cause a loss
of headroom and that would not be very good seeing as I can *just*
stand upright without touching the ceiling. Anyway, just to confirm,
will this board be okay and can I insulate the walls too?

http://www.screwfix.com/p/pitch-roof...m-centre-x-65m...

Its about twice the price I would want to pay, but would appear to be
the right sort of stuff.

Can I ask where you bought yours from? The price shown on the SF
website is for 5 boards but minimum order is 10.

APCO Insulation in Benfleet Essex.

8x4' sheets of 50mm were (at the time) £12 for seconds, and £14 for new.
Discount on top of that for quantity.

Contact:

APCO Insulation,
77 Stanway Road,
Benfleet,
Essex,

01268 565 055

Actually BnQ have quite a variety at what seems to be a good price.

That's mostly polystyrene rather than PIR foam - a bit over only half
the insulation value for the depth...

Also the depth of the rafters is 80mm, would 60mm insulation cause any
damp?

As long as air can flow then you should be ok.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

[Default] On Wed, 12 Oct 2011 13:24:45 -0700 (PDT), a certain
chimpanzee, David , randomly hit the keyboard
and wrote:

To be honest, I would love to strip the whole room, properly fit
insulation etc but it's just not feasible, option 2 would cause a loss
of headroom and that would not be very good seeing as I can *just*
stand upright without touching the ceiling. Anyway, just to confirm,
will this board be okay and can I insulate the walls too?

http://www.screwfix.com/p/pitch-roof...e-x-65mm/28148

Be warned. Screwfix says about this stuff, "Meets Part L of Building
Regulations April 2002". This may have been true for loft conversions
(but not new-builds) then, but the requirements of Part L have changed
twice since then, including the renovation of thermal elements which
have to be upgraded to a maximum U-value of 0.18W/m^2K; it certainly
won't comply for any work you intended to carry out today.
--
Hugo Nebula
"If no-one on the internet wants a piece of this,
just how far from the pack have I strayed"?

On 16/10/2011 12:52, Hugo Nebula wrote:
[Default] On Wed, 12 Oct 2011 13:24:45 -0700 (PDT), a certain
chimpanzee, , randomly hit the keyboard
and wrote:

To be honest, I would love to strip the whole room, properly fit
insulation etc but it's just not feasible, option 2 would cause a loss
of headroom and that would not be very good seeing as I can *just*
stand upright without touching the ceiling. Anyway, just to confirm,
will this board be okay and can I insulate the walls too?

http://www.screwfix.com/p/pitch-roof...e-x-65mm/28148
Be warned. Screwfix says about this stuff, "Meets Part L of Building
Regulations April 2002". This may have been true for loft conversions
(but not new-builds) then, but the requirements of Part L have changed
twice since then, including the renovation of thermal elements which
have to be upgraded to a maximum U-value of 0.18W/m^2K; it certainly
won't comply for any work you intended to carry out today.
Thanks for the information, I am still on the look out for insulation at
a cheaper price anyway.

--
David