Sorry to spam, but this e-petition really does need signing. The couple
involved were our neighbours. Dreadful business.

http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/5851

Pasting the subject line into Google will bring up the site if the link
doesn't work. Many thanks

On Aug 30, 11:22*am, stuart noble wrote:
Sorry to spam, but this e-petition really does need signing. The couple
involved were our neighbours. Dreadful business.

http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/5851

Pasting the subject line into Google will bring up the site if the link
doesn't work. Many thanks

Things are seldom as simple as they initally seem

"NT" wrote in message
...
On Aug 30, 11:22 am, stuart noble wrote:
Sorry to spam, but this e-petition really does need signing. The couple
involved were our neighbours. Dreadful business.

http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/5851

Pasting the subject line into Google will bring up the site if the link
doesn't work. Many thanks

Things are seldom as simple as they initally seem

---------------------------------------------------------

I assume that you are talking about the actual petition rather than pasting
the link :-)

I agree.

AIUI

1) There are no indicators of sleep apnoea that don't require the suffer to
volunteer the information

2) Even with treatment an HGV driver suffer is likely to lose his license.

The driver is in a lose-lose here, why should he report the problem if it is
dead easy to claim that he didn't realise?

tim

stuart noble wrote:
Sorry to spam, but this e-petition really does need signing. The couple
involved were our neighbours. Dreadful business.

http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/5851

Pasting the subject line into Google will bring up the site if the link
doesn't work. Many thanks



It may be more effective to lobby the Freight Transport Association, who
are the trade body responsible for road transport.

Sleep apnoea is a known problem, but hard to diagnose without tests that
are too expensive to use for screening, though a sleeping partner could
probably tell you....

--
Tciao for Now!

John.

1) There are no indicators of sleep apnoea that don't require the
suffer to volunteer the information

Moreover as
http://www.nhs.uk/conditions/Sleep-a...roduction.aspx state
"A person with OSA will usually have no memory of breathlessness, so
they are often unaware that they are not getting a proper night's
sleep." AIUI a diagnosis often starts with a partner reporting symptoms
such as interrupted breathing and frequent waking. So does that mean no
driving an HGV if sleeping alone?


--
Robin
PM may be sent to rbw0{at}hotmail{dot}com

On Aug 30, 1:15*pm, "tim...." wrote:
"NT" wrote in message

...
On Aug 30, 11:22 am, stuart noble wrote:

Sorry to spam, but this e-petition really does need signing. The couple
involved were our neighbours. Dreadful business.

http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/5851

Pasting the subject line into Google will bring up the site if the link
doesn't work. Many thanks

Things are seldom as simple as they initally seem

---------------------------------------------------------

I assume that you are talking about the actual petition rather than pasting
the link :-)

I agree.

I mean the political position that lies behind this petition.

First sleep apnea testing is done with drugs that are counterindicated
for a number of truck drivers, so that would remove a number of
healthy able truckers as well. Second, truckers have a relatively good
safety record on the road, they really arent the main problem area.

3rd there are lots of people with lots of risk factors out there
driving, but these risk factors cause a lot less accidents than the
nut behind the wheel. You'd do far better in reducing mortality by
spending money on advanced driver training courses rather than apnea
screening.

When you look at the pros and cons of letting most people drive versus
requiring a vast battery of health tests and ruling half the
population out, the end result is better when most can drive. Driving
kills a lot of people, of that there's no doubt. Now imagine what
would happen to the economy if 50% of drivers were taken off the road
due to risk factors. The result is we wouldnt be able to afford the
NHS services we can today, the healthy food we can today, and numerous
other things that reduce deaths. The idea that we can and should live
in a safe society that doesnt kill anyone is certainly appealing in
principle, but is unfortunately still a fantasy in the economics of
our time.


NT


AIUI

1) There are no indicators of sleep apnoea that don't require the suffer to
volunteer the information

2) Even with treatment an HGV driver suffer is likely to lose his license..

The driver is in a lose-lose here, why should he report the problem if it is
dead easy to claim that he didn't realise?

tim

AIUI

1) There are no indicators of sleep apnoea that don't require the suffer to
volunteer the information

So if nobody can diagnose the condition, how come the driver can use it
as grounds to escape prosecution?
I guess this is probably all to do with insurance. Since the final bill
will run into millions, the lawyers will be pulling whatever strokes
they can to pass the buck.

"stuart noble" wrote in message
...

AIUI

1) There are no indicators of sleep apnoea that don't require the suffer
to
volunteer the information

So if nobody can diagnose the condition, how come the driver can use it as
grounds to escape prosecution?

AIUI you diagnose the condition by going to the doctor and reporting the
symptoms.

But as the symptoms are (normally) fairly benign you don't know that you
might be a suffer, so you don't go to the doctor.

But if you have an accident that might result in prosecution, chances are
the doctor will come to you and ask.

tim

I mean the political position that lies behind this petition.

First sleep apnea testing is done with drugs that are counterindicated
for a number of truck drivers, so that would remove a number of
healthy able truckers as well. Second, truckers have a relatively good
safety record on the road, they really arent the main problem area.

3rd there are lots of people with lots of risk factors out there
driving, but these risk factors cause a lot less accidents than the
nut behind the wheel. You'd do far better in reducing mortality by
spending money on advanced driver training courses rather than apnea
screening.

When you look at the pros and cons of letting most people drive versus
requiring a vast battery of health tests and ruling half the
population out, the end result is better when most can drive. Driving
kills a lot of people, of that there's no doubt. Now imagine what
would happen to the economy if 50% of drivers were taken off the road
due to risk factors. The result is we wouldnt be able to afford the
NHS services we can today, the healthy food we can today, and numerous
other things that reduce deaths. The idea that we can and should live
in a safe society that doesnt kill anyone is certainly appealing in
principle, but is unfortunately still a fantasy in the economics of
our time.


NT


+1. Well said.

On Tue, 30 Aug 2011 05:35:24 -0700 (PDT), NT
wrote:

I mean the political position that lies behind this petition.

First sleep apnea testing is done with drugs that are counterindicated
for a number of truck drivers,

?? My wife was tested prior to an operation by simply wearing a SPO2
monitor for one night as she slept.

A better diagnosis such as that might be required for medico-legal
purposes could have been done in a sleep lab including a bedroom
monitored with CCTV equipped with a lot of instrumentation.

But as for regular testing of all truck drivers ...

so that would remove a number of
healthy able truckers as well. Second, truckers have a relatively good
safety record on the road, they really arent the main problem area.


Possibly but they do seem to figure significantly in those very
serious accidents we see on the motorways at Ca. 5-oo am. A slightly
different problem, I know.

3rd there are lots of people with lots of risk factors out there
driving, but these risk factors cause a lot less accidents than the in b
nut behind the wheel. You'd do far better in reducing mortality by
spending money on advanced driver training courses rather than apnea
screening.


There is a simple questionaire that can flag up a tendency to sleep
apnea. However already the DVLA will pull the licence of anyone who is
suspected of suffering from S.A. (even self declared) until such time
as a doctor says their S.A. is under control.

Note that the airlines changed the rules so that pilots could at least
declare their own concerns about their own health without fear of
peremptory grounding.

Derek G

"stuart noble" wrote in message
...
Sorry to spam, but this e-petition really does need signing. The couple
involved were our neighbours. Dreadful business.

http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/5851

Pasting the subject line into Google will bring up the site if the link
doesn't work. Many thanks



This is yet another example of someone who has suffered a loss trying to
enact specific legislation to prevent this happening again.
Understandable, evinces sympathy, but may not be a good use of time and
money.
The suggestion is far too specific.

I see no cost benefit analysis included.
Ploughing through
http://www.britishsnoring.co.uk/hgv_...eep_apnoea.php it seems
that there are about 120 fatalities a year due to sleep related accidents
involving HGVs.
However this does not state that those 120 accidents were all caused by an
HGV driver falling asleep - fatalities could have been caused by a non-HGV
driver falling asleep and hitting an HGV.
It is reasonable to assume that if a car hits an HGV there is a higher
likelyhood of a fatality than if the car hit another car or just left the
road.
Additionally, it does not give a percentage of the overall accidents which
were caused by sleep apnea because this is generally an undiagnosed
condition.
If we assume that even 25% of those accidents (and this could be an order of
magnitude out) were cause by sleep apnea suffered by an HGV driver rather
than other causes of tiredness then that is 30 fatal accidents a year.
Or, using the 2007 figure of 2538 fatal accidents in total, 1.2% of fatal
accidents - or it could be 3 accidents/0.12% or lower.

So extending the HGV driver medical testing for another condition may save
few if any lives.

A few suggestions:

(1) Newer cars are starting to include detection devices which warn when the
driver is thought to be losing alertness and possibly falling asleep.
Inclusion of these in HGV cabs (assuming that they are proved effective) is
far more broad reaching than medical screening for one specific complaint
and could potentially make HGV driving safer. Again, this should be subject
to a cost benefit analysis.

(2) Look for the highest causes of driving fatalities. Discount drunkeness,
drug abuse and excessive speed (which are already being addressed/ignored)
and look for any medical condition which has a higher impact than sleep
apnea.

(3) If you really want to improve road safety in terms of medical fitness of
the drivers then extend the medical testing currently required for HGV
drivers to the general population. This will pick up, for example, all those
diabetics who are insulin users with poor hypo control who haven't declared
it because they know they will have to give up driving, and likewise all
those with serious heart conditions who are not declaring them for the same
reason. Also all those with poor eyesight. Also....... One upside of this
strategy would be the potential increase in early diagnosis of things such
as heart problems, poor sight and diabetes.

(4) Make sure that all non-UK licence holders have to provide evidence of
suitable medical screening before being allowed to drive in the UK (either
bringing in vehicles or hiring vehicles here).

I note also that this is a UK-centric petition.
The target should be EU legislation given the number of HGV drivers from
other parts of the EU who drive on UK roads.

Again, sympathy for the loss but there needs to be a lot more evidence of a
major problem before scarce resources are channeled into this specific area.

Interestingly
http://www.roadsafetyfoundation.org/...2011-2020.aspx
suggests that the most effective way to reduce road deaths is to improve the
safety of the roads where the majority of accidents occur.
Of course, this could just be a pressure group for road builders!

Finally, as there is a finite pot of money should this take precedence for
example over additional funding for anti-cancer and similar drugs to try and
reduce the post code lottery which currently exists in some areas.

Cheers

Dave R

--
No plan survives contact with the enemy.
[Not even bunny]

Helmuth von Moltke the Elder

(\__/)
(='.'=)
(")_(")

On 02/09/2011 19:06, David WE Roberts wrote:

"stuart noble" wrote in message
...
Sorry to spam, but this e-petition really does need signing. The
couple involved were our neighbours. Dreadful business.

http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/5851

Pasting the subject line into Google will bring up the site if the
link doesn't work. Many thanks



This is yet another example of someone who has suffered a loss trying to
enact specific legislation to prevent this happening again.
Understandable, evinces sympathy, but may not be a good use of time and
money.
The suggestion is far too specific.

I see no cost benefit analysis included.
Ploughing through
http://www.britishsnoring.co.uk/hgv_...eep_apnoea.php it
seems that there are about 120 fatalities a year due to sleep related
accidents involving HGVs.
However this does not state that those 120 accidents were all caused by
an HGV driver falling asleep - fatalities could have been caused by a
non-HGV driver falling asleep and hitting an HGV.
It is reasonable to assume that if a car hits an HGV there is a higher
likelyhood of a fatality than if the car hit another car or just left
the road.
Additionally, it does not give a percentage of the overall accidents
which were caused by sleep apnea because this is generally an
undiagnosed condition.
If we assume that even 25% of those accidents (and this could be an
order of magnitude out) were cause by sleep apnea suffered by an HGV
driver rather than other causes of tiredness then that is 30 fatal
accidents a year.
Or, using the 2007 figure of 2538 fatal accidents in total, 1.2% of
fatal accidents - or it could be 3 accidents/0.12% or lower.

So extending the HGV driver medical testing for another condition may
save few if any lives.

A few suggestions:

(1) Newer cars are starting to include detection devices which warn when
the driver is thought to be losing alertness and possibly falling
asleep. Inclusion of these in HGV cabs (assuming that they are proved
effective) is far more broad reaching than medical screening for one
specific complaint and could potentially make HGV driving safer. Again,
this should be subject to a cost benefit analysis.

(2) Look for the highest causes of driving fatalities. Discount
drunkeness, drug abuse and excessive speed (which are already being
addressed/ignored) and look for any medical condition which has a higher
impact than sleep apnea.

(3) If you really want to improve road safety in terms of medical
fitness of the drivers then extend the medical testing currently
required for HGV drivers to the general population. This will pick up,
for example, all those diabetics who are insulin users with poor hypo
control who haven't declared it because they know they will have to give
up driving, and likewise all those with serious heart conditions who are
not declaring them for the same reason. Also all those with poor
eyesight. Also....... One upside of this strategy would be the potential
increase in early diagnosis of things such as heart problems, poor sight
and diabetes.

(4) Make sure that all non-UK licence holders have to provide evidence
of suitable medical screening before being allowed to drive in the UK
(either bringing in vehicles or hiring vehicles here).

I note also that this is a UK-centric petition.
The target should be EU legislation given the number of HGV drivers from
other parts of the EU who drive on UK roads.

Again, sympathy for the loss but there needs to be a lot more evidence
of a major problem before scarce resources are channeled into this
specific area.

Interestingly
http://www.roadsafetyfoundation.org/...2011-2020.aspx

suggests that the most effective way to reduce road deaths is to improve
the safety of the roads where the majority of accidents occur.
Of course, this could just be a pressure group for road builders!

Finally, as there is a finite pot of money should this take precedence
for example over additional funding for anti-cancer and similar drugs to
try and reduce the post code lottery which currently exists in some areas.

Cheers

Dave R

You're right of course.
The elephant in the room is that this condition is obviously being used
as a loophole to avoid the death by dangerous driving charge. Hopefully
the petition is a round about way of asking for the whole issue to be
reviewed.