I share this with the group in case the conclusion (wire the bells in
series, not parallel) is useful to anyone, and to see if anyone has
any better advice about all this! And whether to use a snubber or
not...


I tried to follow this...
http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?...es_explain ed
....when installing my new door bell.

One push, one transformer, two ding-dong bells in parallel.
push:
http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/VE814.html
bells:
http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/VE117.html

With the standard transformer from tlc...
http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/TCTR7.html
....it worked OK on the 12V winding, but with two issues:
1) while the door bell is pushed in (i.e. between the "ding" and the
"dong") the AC made the bells buzz/hum
2) good old transformers use electricity even when the bell isn't
being pushed

I though a switched mode DC PSU could solve both problems, so tried to
figure out what to buy...

The bells were rated 8-16V. 9V batteries or 16V transformer were
suggested on the packaging, 1A load. I was quite surprised they'd
worked in parallel from the 12V 1A transformer, but they seemed fairly
happy with it.


I referred to the FAQ, and saw that I needed plenty of voltage and
current. Taking all things into consideration, I chose this...
http://cpc.farnell.com/stontronics/d...70?Ntt=PW02470
1.25A, 15V.

Long story short, it does this:

1) one bell - works, but with such force that the initial "ding" is
more like a "BANG" that's going to shoot the sounder through the wall
2) two bells in parallel - holding the door bell push in (i.e. you'd
just expect a "Ding"), you get a ding ... dong-ding ... dong-ding ...
etc. Seems the PSU has some sort of short-circuit or overload
protection that kicks in.
3) two bells in series - fine.

So, that was the solution: put the bells in series. Works fine, but
I'm wondering if a lower powered PSU with the bells in parallel might
have been a better solution, or worse?

Also, for just one bell, when using a switched mode PSU, it seems you
need far less voltage (or current) than the packaging or FAQ would
suggest. Not that I've tried it - but with 15V 1.25A, I don't think
the bell is going to last long, and while it lasts, it won't make a
very nice "Ding"!


In all cases, the crackle in the door bell push itself is quite
considerable. I could try a snubber, but I'm worried that's just going
to draw a little current 24/7 - the whole point of the switched mode
PSU is that it draws basically nothing when there's no load (i.e.
99.9999% of the time).

Skinflint that I am, I'm trying to do the mental calculation of the
cost of replacing the door bell push when it's prematurely worn out
due to the arcing, vs the cost of the current drawn by a snubber. But
I can't begin to figure it out!

Cheers,
David.

"David Robinson" wrote in message
...
I share this with the group in case the conclusion (wire the bells in
series, not parallel) is useful to anyone, and to see if anyone has
any better advice about all this! And whether to use a snubber or
not...


I tried to follow this...
http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?...es_explain ed
...when installing my new door bell.

One push, one transformer, two ding-dong bells in parallel.
push:
http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/VE814.html
bells:
http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/VE117.html

With the standard transformer from tlc...
http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/TCTR7.html
...it worked OK on the 12V winding, but with two issues:
1) while the door bell is pushed in (i.e. between the "ding" and the
"dong") the AC made the bells buzz/hum
2) good old transformers use electricity even when the bell isn't
being pushed

I though a switched mode DC PSU could solve both problems, so tried to
figure out what to buy...

The bells were rated 8-16V. 9V batteries or 16V transformer were
suggested on the packaging, 1A load. I was quite surprised they'd
worked in parallel from the 12V 1A transformer, but they seemed fairly
happy with it.


I referred to the FAQ, and saw that I needed plenty of voltage and
current. Taking all things into consideration, I chose this...
http://cpc.farnell.com/stontronics/d...70?Ntt=PW02470
1.25A, 15V.

Long story short, it does this:

1) one bell - works, but with such force that the initial "ding" is
more like a "BANG" that's going to shoot the sounder through the wall
2) two bells in parallel - holding the door bell push in (i.e. you'd
just expect a "Ding"), you get a ding ... dong-ding ... dong-ding ...
etc. Seems the PSU has some sort of short-circuit or overload
protection that kicks in.
3) two bells in series - fine.

So, that was the solution: put the bells in series. Works fine, but
I'm wondering if a lower powered PSU with the bells in parallel might
have been a better solution, or worse?

Also, for just one bell, when using a switched mode PSU, it seems you
need far less voltage (or current) than the packaging or FAQ would
suggest. Not that I've tried it - but with 15V 1.25A, I don't think
the bell is going to last long, and while it lasts, it won't make a
very nice "Ding"!


In all cases, the crackle in the door bell push itself is quite
considerable. I could try a snubber, but I'm worried that's just going
to draw a little current 24/7 - the whole point of the switched mode
PSU is that it draws basically nothing when there's no load (i.e.
99.9999% of the time).

Skinflint that I am, I'm trying to do the mental calculation of the
cost of replacing the door bell push when it's prematurely worn out
due to the arcing, vs the cost of the current drawn by a snubber. But
I can't begin to figure it out!

Cheers,
David.

We could have a whip-round and get you a new bell-push

On Jun 23, 11:00*am, David Robinson
wrote:
I share this with the group in case the conclusion (wire the bells in
series, not parallel) is useful to anyone, and to see if anyone has
any better advice about all this! And whether to use a snubber or
not...

I tried to follow this...http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?...ower_supplies_...
...when installing my new door bell.

One push, one transformer, two ding-dong bells in parallel.
push:http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/VE814.html
bells:http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/VE117.html

With the standard transformer from tlc...http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/TCTR7.html
...it worked OK on the 12V winding, but with two issues:
1) while the door bell is pushed in (i.e. between the "ding" and the
"dong") the AC made the bells buzz/hum
2) good old transformers use electricity even when the bell isn't
being pushed

I though a switched mode DC PSU could solve both problems, so tried to
figure out what to buy...

The bells were rated 8-16V. 9V batteries or 16V transformer were
suggested on the packaging, 1A load. I was quite surprised they'd
worked in parallel from the 12V 1A transformer, but they seemed fairly
happy with it.

I referred to the FAQ, and saw that I needed plenty of voltage and
current. Taking all things into consideration, I chose this...http://cpc.farnell.com/stontronics/d...top-15v-1-2a/d...
1.25A, 15V.

Long story short, it does this:

1) one bell - works, but with such force that the initial "ding" is
more like a "BANG" that's going to shoot the sounder through the wall
2) two bells in parallel - holding the door bell push in (i.e. you'd
just expect a "Ding"), you get a ding ... dong-ding ... dong-ding ...
etc. Seems the PSU has some sort of short-circuit or overload
protection that kicks in.
3) two bells in series - fine.

So, that was the solution: put the bells in series. Works fine, but
I'm wondering if a lower powered PSU with the bells in parallel might
have been a better solution, or worse?

Also, for just one bell, when using a switched mode PSU, it seems you
need far less voltage (or current) than the packaging or FAQ would
suggest. Not that I've tried it - but with 15V 1.25A, I don't think
the bell is going to last long, and while it lasts, it won't make a
very nice "Ding"!

In all cases, the crackle in the door bell push itself is quite
considerable. I could try a snubber, but I'm worried that's just going
to draw a little current 24/7 - the whole point of the switched mode
PSU is that it draws basically nothing when there's no load (i.e.
99.9999% of the time).

Skinflint that I am, I'm trying to do the mental calculation of the
cost of replacing the door bell push when it's prematurely worn out
due to the arcing, vs the cost of the current drawn by a snubber. But
I can't begin to figure it out!

Cheers,
David.


The main problem is your high voltage, 15v for doorbells is way OTT.
Rewiring them in series gets you about 7.5v per chime, which is still
high, but they should survive it. The thing is with 2 tone chimes is
that they use a motion activated switch to chop the power they take,
so when you wire 2 in series you get total chaos, as you've found.

By using a nonstandard approach, you've run into several problems at
once. The voltage is excessive, affecting the chimes and switch, and
the way chimes work means that seriesing them causes all sorts of
wacky timing issues. You seem to have escaped the current issue,
namely that smpsus will only put out their rated current, whereas
tranformer supplies will put out well above that for brief periods,
and some chimes demand that extra current.

The standard solution would be to put them in parallel and use
something a standard 5v transformer to run them - or if your wiring's
very long, go up to 8v. This will solve all the problems.

If instead you decide to keep it as is, definitely fit a snubber, or
your switch wont survive, and there's a miniscule chance of someone
getting a nasty shock off the system. Snubbers dont eat any current
when the bell's not operating. I'd be tempted to put a snubber across
each chime, to reduce the peak voltages the wiring an switch are
seeing.

My gut feel is that including all this on the wiki page will only end
up confusing people. Mayb a bit more could be made of putting
mechanical sounders in series.


NT

On Jun 23, 12:07*pm, "brass monkey" wrote:
"David Robinson" wrote in message

...



I share this with the group in case the conclusion (wire the bells in
series, not parallel) is useful to anyone, and to see if anyone has
any better advice about all this! And whether to use a snubber or
not...

I tried to follow this...
http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?...ower_supplies_....
...when installing my new door bell.

One push, one transformer, two ding-dong bells in parallel.
push:
http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/VE814.html
bells:
http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/VE117.html

With the standard transformer from tlc...
http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/TCTR7.html
...it worked OK on the 12V winding, but with two issues:
1) while the door bell is pushed in (i.e. between the "ding" and the
"dong") the AC made the bells buzz/hum
2) good old transformers use electricity even when the bell isn't
being pushed

I though a switched mode DC PSU could solve both problems, so tried to
figure out what to buy...

The bells were rated 8-16V. 9V batteries or 16V transformer were
suggested on the packaging, 1A load. I was quite surprised they'd
worked in parallel from the 12V 1A transformer, but they seemed fairly
happy with it.

I referred to the FAQ, and saw that I needed plenty of voltage and
current. Taking all things into consideration, I chose this...
http://cpc.farnell.com/stontronics/d...top-15v-1-2a/d...
1.25A, 15V.

Long story short, it does this:

1) one bell - works, but with such force that the initial "ding" is
more like a "BANG" that's going to shoot the sounder through the wall
2) two bells in parallel - holding the door bell push in (i.e. you'd
just expect a "Ding"), you get a ding ... dong-ding ... dong-ding ...
etc. Seems the PSU has some sort of short-circuit or overload
protection that kicks in.
3) two bells in series - fine.

So, that was the solution: put the bells in series. Works fine, but
I'm wondering if a lower powered PSU with the bells in parallel might
have been a better solution, or worse?

Also, for just one bell, when using a switched mode PSU, it seems you
need far less voltage (or current) than the packaging or FAQ would
suggest. Not that I've tried it - but with 15V 1.25A, I don't think
the bell is going to last long, and while it lasts, it won't make a
very nice "Ding"!

In all cases, the crackle in the door bell push itself is quite
considerable. I could try a snubber, but I'm worried that's just going
to draw a little current 24/7 - the whole point of the switched mode
PSU is that it draws basically nothing when there's no load (i.e.
99.9999% of the time).

Skinflint that I am, I'm trying to do the mental calculation of the
cost of replacing the door bell push when it's prematurely worn out
due to the arcing, vs the cost of the current drawn by a snubber. But
I can't begin to figure it out!

Cheers,
David.

We could have a whip-round and get you a new bell-push

Once you've got it working, its not hard to make a good nice bellpush.


NT

On Jun 23, 11:00*am, David Robinson
wrote:
I share this with the group in case the conclusion (wire the bells in
series, not parallel) is useful to anyone, and to see if anyone has
any better advice about all this! And whether to use a snubber or
not...

I tried to follow this...http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?...ower_supplies_...
...when installing my new door bell.

One push, one transformer, two ding-dong bells in parallel.
push:http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/VE814.html
bells:http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/VE117.html

With the standard transformer from tlc...http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/TCTR7.html
...it worked OK on the 12V winding, but with two issues:
1) while the door bell is pushed in (i.e. between the "ding" and the
"dong") the AC made the bells buzz/hum
2) good old transformers use electricity even when the bell isn't
being pushed

I though a switched mode DC PSU could solve both problems, so tried to
figure out what to buy...

The bells were rated 8-16V. 9V batteries or 16V transformer were
suggested on the packaging, 1A load. I was quite surprised they'd
worked in parallel from the 12V 1A transformer, but they seemed fairly
happy with it.

I referred to the FAQ, and saw that I needed plenty of voltage and
current. Taking all things into consideration, I chose this...http://cpc.farnell.com/stontronics/d...top-15v-1-2a/d...
1.25A, 15V.

Long story short, it does this:

1) one bell - works, but with such force that the initial "ding" is
more like a "BANG" that's going to shoot the sounder through the wall
2) two bells in parallel - holding the door bell push in (i.e. you'd
just expect a "Ding"), you get a ding ... dong-ding ... dong-ding ...
etc. Seems the PSU has some sort of short-circuit or overload
protection that kicks in.

It will, very fast acting in the order of milliseconds.

3) two bells in series - fine.

So, that was the solution: put the bells in series. Works fine, but
I'm wondering if a lower powered PSU with the bells in parallel might
have been a better solution, or worse?

You need a higher current rated supply if you don't want it to cut
out. The voltage from a transformer based supply (assuming no current
limited regulation) will sag under excess load rather than cut out.
You also need a lower voltage, which will reduce the current
requirement.

the whole point of the switched mode
PSU is that it draws basically nothing when there's no load (i.e.
99.9999% of the time).

I wouldn't assume that for cheap consumer stuff like you bought.

MBQ

David Robinson wrote:
I share this with the group in case the conclusion (wire the bells in
series, not parallel) is useful to anyone, and to see if anyone has
any better advice about all this! And whether to use a snubber or
not...


I tried to follow this...
http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?...es_explain ed
...when installing my new door bell.

One push, one transformer, two ding-dong bells in parallel.
push:
http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/VE814.html
bells:
http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/VE117.html

With the standard transformer from tlc...
http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/TCTR7.html
...it worked OK on the 12V winding, but with two issues:
1) while the door bell is pushed in (i.e. between the "ding" and the
"dong") the AC made the bells buzz/hum
2) good old transformers use electricity even when the bell isn't
being pushed

I though a switched mode DC PSU could solve both problems, so tried to
figure out what to buy...

The bells were rated 8-16V. 9V batteries or 16V transformer were
suggested on the packaging, 1A load. I was quite surprised they'd
worked in parallel from the 12V 1A transformer, but they seemed fairly
happy with it.


I referred to the FAQ, and saw that I needed plenty of voltage and
current. Taking all things into consideration, I chose this...
http://cpc.farnell.com/stontronics/d...70?Ntt=PW02470
1.25A, 15V.

Long story short, it does this:

1) one bell - works, but with such force that the initial "ding" is
more like a "BANG" that's going to shoot the sounder through the wall
2) two bells in parallel - holding the door bell push in (i.e. you'd
just expect a "Ding"), you get a ding ... dong-ding ... dong-ding ...
etc. Seems the PSU has some sort of short-circuit or overload
protection that kicks in.
3) two bells in series - fine.

So, that was the solution: put the bells in series. Works fine, but
I'm wondering if a lower powered PSU with the bells in parallel might
have been a better solution, or worse?

Also, for just one bell, when using a switched mode PSU, it seems you
need far less voltage (or current) than the packaging or FAQ would
suggest. Not that I've tried it - but with 15V 1.25A, I don't think
the bell is going to last long, and while it lasts, it won't make a
very nice "Ding"!


In all cases, the crackle in the door bell push itself is quite
considerable. I could try a snubber, but I'm worried that's just going
to draw a little current 24/7 - the whole point of the switched mode
PSU is that it draws basically nothing when there's no load (i.e.
99.9999% of the time).

Skinflint that I am, I'm trying to do the mental calculation of the
cost of replacing the door bell push when it's prematurely worn out
due to the arcing, vs the cost of the current drawn by a snubber. But
I can't begin to figure it out!

Cheers,
David.
Knockers are very effective and consume no power at all.

Bob

On Jun 23, 12:38*pm, Tabby wrote:
On Jun 23, 11:00*am, David Robinson
wrote:



I share this with the group in case the conclusion (wire the bells in
series, not parallel) is useful to anyone, and to see if anyone has
any better advice about all this! And whether to use a snubber or
not...

I tried to follow this...http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?...ower_supplies_...
...when installing my new door bell.

One push, one transformer, two ding-dong bells in parallel.
push:http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/VE814.html
bells:http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/VE117.html

With the standard transformer from tlc...http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/TCTR7.html
...it worked OK on the 12V winding, but with two issues:
1) while the door bell is pushed in (i.e. between the "ding" and the
"dong") the AC made the bells buzz/hum
2) good old transformers use electricity even when the bell isn't
being pushed

I though a switched mode DC PSU could solve both problems, so tried to
figure out what to buy...

The bells were rated 8-16V. 9V batteries or 16V transformer were
suggested on the packaging, 1A load. I was quite surprised they'd
worked in parallel from the 12V 1A transformer, but they seemed fairly
happy with it.

I referred to the FAQ, and saw that I needed plenty of voltage and
current. Taking all things into consideration, I chose this...http://cpc.farnell.com/stontronics/d...top-15v-1-2a/d...
1.25A, 15V.

Long story short, it does this:

1) one bell - works, but with such force that the initial "ding" is
more like a "BANG" that's going to shoot the sounder through the wall
2) two bells in parallel - holding the door bell push in (i.e. you'd
just expect a "Ding"), you get a ding ... dong-ding ... dong-ding ...
etc. Seems the PSU has some sort of short-circuit or overload
protection that kicks in.
3) two bells in series - fine.

So, that was the solution: put the bells in series. Works fine, but
I'm wondering if a lower powered PSU with the bells in parallel might
have been a better solution, or worse?

Also, for just one bell, when using a switched mode PSU, it seems you
need far less voltage (or current) than the packaging or FAQ would
suggest. Not that I've tried it - but with 15V 1.25A, I don't think
the bell is going to last long, and while it lasts, it won't make a
very nice "Ding"!

In all cases, the crackle in the door bell push itself is quite
considerable. I could try a snubber, but I'm worried that's just going
to draw a little current 24/7 - the whole point of the switched mode
PSU is that it draws basically nothing when there's no load (i.e.
99.9999% of the time).

Skinflint that I am, I'm trying to do the mental calculation of the
cost of replacing the door bell push when it's prematurely worn out
due to the arcing, vs the cost of the current drawn by a snubber. But
I can't begin to figure it out!

Cheers,
David.

The main problem is your high voltage, 15v for doorbells is way OTT.
Rewiring them in series gets you about 7.5v per chime, which is still
high, but they should survive it. The thing is with 2 tone chimes is
that they use a motion activated switch to chop the power they take,
so when you wire 2 in series you get total chaos, as you've found.

But it was in series that they worked!

And honestly, they really did say 8V-16V, with 9V suggested for
batteries and 16V suggested for transformers.

By using a nonstandard approach, you've run into several problems at
once. The voltage is excessive, affecting the chimes and switch...

I can quite believe that. But then either the packaging, or the wiki,
is incorrect. However, both agree on the need for a higher voltage
when using a transformer.

So I can only think that it's using a switched mode PSU which causes
this issue. If I ever have a lower voltage PSU handy, I'll try it -
though the current handling would have to be stupidly high to avoid
cutting out, surely?

I'd be tempted to put a snubber across
each chime, to reduce the peak voltages the wiring an switch are
seeing.

As well as the bell push?

Cheers,
David.

On Thu, 23 Jun 2011 20:02:10 +0100, Bob Minchin wrote:

Knockers are very effective and consume no power at all.

He he, likewise batteries. Can you stil get PP9's? or wander off the
Maplin and get a 6 x AA cell holder and have 9v supply that way. When
the push isn't pressed no current is drawn batteries will last for
years.


--
Cheers
Dave.

On Jun 23, 8:28*pm, David Robinson
wrote:
On Jun 23, 12:38*pm, Tabby wrote:



On Jun 23, 11:00*am, David Robinson
wrote:

I share this with the group in case the conclusion (wire the bells in
series, not parallel) is useful to anyone, and to see if anyone has
any better advice about all this! And whether to use a snubber or
not...

I tried to follow this...http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?...ower_supplies_...
...when installing my new door bell.

One push, one transformer, two ding-dong bells in parallel.
push:http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/VE814.html
bells:http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/VE117.html

With the standard transformer from tlc...http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/TCTR7.html
...it worked OK on the 12V winding, but with two issues:
1) while the door bell is pushed in (i.e. between the "ding" and the
"dong") the AC made the bells buzz/hum
2) good old transformers use electricity even when the bell isn't
being pushed

I though a switched mode DC PSU could solve both problems, so tried to
figure out what to buy...

The bells were rated 8-16V. 9V batteries or 16V transformer were
suggested on the packaging, 1A load. I was quite surprised they'd
worked in parallel from the 12V 1A transformer, but they seemed fairly
happy with it.

I referred to the FAQ, and saw that I needed plenty of voltage and
current. Taking all things into consideration, I chose this...http://cpc.farnell.com/stontronics/d...top-15v-1-2a/d...
1.25A, 15V.

Long story short, it does this:

1) one bell - works, but with such force that the initial "ding" is
more like a "BANG" that's going to shoot the sounder through the wall
2) two bells in parallel - holding the door bell push in (i.e. you'd
just expect a "Ding"), you get a ding ... dong-ding ... dong-ding ...
etc. Seems the PSU has some sort of short-circuit or overload
protection that kicks in.
3) two bells in series - fine.

So, that was the solution: put the bells in series. Works fine, but
I'm wondering if a lower powered PSU with the bells in parallel might
have been a better solution, or worse?

Also, for just one bell, when using a switched mode PSU, it seems you
need far less voltage (or current) than the packaging or FAQ would
suggest. Not that I've tried it - but with 15V 1.25A, I don't think
the bell is going to last long, and while it lasts, it won't make a
very nice "Ding"!

In all cases, the crackle in the door bell push itself is quite
considerable. I could try a snubber, but I'm worried that's just going
to draw a little current 24/7 - the whole point of the switched mode
PSU is that it draws basically nothing when there's no load (i.e.
99.9999% of the time).

Skinflint that I am, I'm trying to do the mental calculation of the
cost of replacing the door bell push when it's prematurely worn out
due to the arcing, vs the cost of the current drawn by a snubber. But
I can't begin to figure it out!

Cheers,
David.

The main problem is your high voltage, 15v for doorbells is way OTT.
Rewiring them in series gets you about 7.5v per chime, which is still
high, but they should survive it. The thing is with 2 tone chimes is
that they use a motion activated switch to chop the power they take,
so when you wire 2 in series you get total chaos, as you've found.

But it was in series that they worked!

And honestly, they really did say 8V-16V, with 9V suggested for
batteries and 16V suggested for transformers.

By using a nonstandard approach, you've run into several problems at
once. The voltage is excessive, affecting the chimes and switch...

I can quite believe that. But then either the packaging, or the wiki,
is incorrect. However, both agree on the need for a higher voltage
when using a transformer.

So I can only think that it's using a switched mode PSU which causes
this issue. If I ever have a lower voltage PSU handy, I'll try it -
though the current handling would have to be stupidly high to avoid
cutting out, surely?

I'd be tempted to put a snubber across
each chime, to reduce the peak voltages the wiring an switch are
seeing.

As well as the bell push?

Cheers,
David.

I guess youre understanding less than I thought. I'd wire them in
parallel, use a sensible supply voltage with more current, and add
snubbers


NT