in 1047725 20110613 223614 fred wrote:
In article , Frank Erskine
writes
On Mon, 13 Jun 2011 13:36:59 +0100, fred wrote:

In article , Bob Martin
writes

About 20 years ago I chased a grey squirrel out of my loft and blocked the
access
holes.
For the next few weeks it was in my face whenever I looked out of the landing
window
or went into the garden.
The next time I went up to the loft I found the remains of 3 baby squirrels.
I have felt bad about it ever since.

Would you have felt so bad if they had been baby rats?

_I_ would.

In my book vermin are vermin, but out of respect I'll hold of on the
mice and shovel follow-up story.

I'm sure we've done this to death before but who decides what is vermin and
what isn't?
Isn't just a selfish "it conveniences me"?
In my book anyone who causes unnecessary pain, suffering or death to
another creature is "vermin".

On Tue, 14 Jun 2011 07:20:29 BST, Bob Martin
wrote:

in 1047725 20110613 223614 fred wrote:
In article , Frank Erskine
writes
On Mon, 13 Jun 2011 13:36:59 +0100, fred wrote:

In article , Bob Martin
writes

About 20 years ago I chased a grey squirrel out of my loft and blocked the
access
holes.
For the next few weeks it was in my face whenever I looked out of the landing
window
or went into the garden.
The next time I went up to the loft I found the remains of 3 baby squirrels.
I have felt bad about it ever since.

Would you have felt so bad if they had been baby rats?

_I_ would.

In my book vermin are vermin, but out of respect I'll hold of on the
mice and shovel follow-up story.

I'm sure we've done this to death before but who decides what is vermin and
what isn't?
Isn't just a selfish "it conveniences me"?
In my book anyone who causes unnecessary pain, suffering or death to
another creature is "vermin".

Hear hear.

--
Frank Erskine

On Tue, 14 Jun 2011 07:20:29 BST, Bob Martin wrote:

In my book vermin are vermin, but out of respect I'll hold of on
the
mice and shovel follow-up story.

I'm sure we've done this to death before but who decides what is vermin
and what isn't?

To some extent it's laid down in law but not very well. A very quick
google finds this Hansard entry:

8 Oct 2003 : Column WA60
Vermin

Lord Selsdon asked Her Majesty's Government:

Which mammals and other animals are classified as
"vermin".[HL4559]

Lord Whitty: There is no definition of the term "vermin" in UK law.
In such a situation the Oxford Dictionary definition should be
applied.

The Oxford Dictionary defines "vermin" as "Animals of a noxious or
objectionable kind. Originally applied to reptiles, stealthy, or
slinky animals, and various wild beasts; now, excluding in US and
Australia, almost entirely restricted to those animals or birds which
prey upon preserved game . . ."

The Small Ground Vermin Traps Order 1958 and the various Spring Traps
Approval Orders, refer to "small ground vermin". Neither the orders
nor the Pests Act 1954, under which they are made, define this term
or provide an exclusive list of species. However, the following
animals are listed under various orders: moles, grey squirrels,
rabbits, mink, stoats, weasels, rabbits, rats, and mice.

Traps approved under the Spring Traps Approval Order 1995 do not
apply to small ground vermin listed in Schedules 5 and 6 to the
Wildlife and Countryside Act 1981. This means that red squirrels,
dormice, water voles, shrews, hedgehogs, polecats and a number of
other species are excluded.

Isn't just a selfish "it conveniences me"?


In my book anyone who causes unnecessary pain, suffering or death to
another creature is "vermin".

You are a vegan? 'cause you can't be sure that the animals used for
the production of meat or diary products have never suffered. Or is
that "necessary"?

--
Cheers
Dave.

"Dave Liquorice" wrote:

the

To some extent it's laid down in law but not very well. A very quick
google finds this Hansard entry:

8 Oct 2003 : Column WA60
Vermin

Lord Selsdon asked Her Majesty's Government:

Which mammals and other animals are classified as
"vermin".[HL4559]

Lord Whitty: There is no definition of the term "vermin" in UK law.
In such a situation the Oxford Dictionary definition should be
applied.

The Oxford Dictionary defines "vermin" as "Animals of a noxious or
objectionable kind. Originally applied to reptiles, stealthy, or
slinky animals, and various wild beasts; now, excluding in US and
Australia, almost entirely restricted to those animals or birds which
prey upon preserved game . . ."

The Small Ground Vermin Traps Order 1958 and the various Spring Traps
Approval Orders, refer to "small ground vermin". Neither the orders
nor the Pests Act 1954, under which they are made, define this term
or provide an exclusive list of species. However, the following
animals are listed under various orders: moles, grey squirrels,
rabbits, mink, stoats, weasels, rabbits, rats, and mice.

Traps approved under the Spring Traps Approval Order 1995 do not
apply to small ground vermin listed in Schedules 5 and 6 to the
Wildlife and Countryside Act 1981. This means that red squirrels,
dormice, water voles, shrews, hedgehogs, polecats and a number of
other species are excluded.

You are a vegan? 'cause you can't be sure that the animals used for
the production of meat or diary products have never suffered. Or is
that "necessary"?

snip diary products /snip
squirrel fur journal anyone?

I'm toying with the idea of annexing off the loft and creating a 'box' for
the fella, as was suggested earlier in this thread and I also considered at
the outset, so it was nice to know that 'another' had the same musings and
rendered me sane, at least partially

I have heard from a friend who ended up exterminating a treerat in his loft
after attempts to gently remove it nearly ended up with him being facially
disfigured... a chainsaw mask and welders gloves seem sensible when faced
with a cornered squirrel, on all fours, in a tight space



--
What else are opposable thumbs for? Get to me at
masterfix{at}btinternet{dot}com

In message
-septembe
r.org, Dean Heighington writes
"Dave Liquorice" wrote:

the

To some extent it's laid down in law but not very well. A very quick
google finds this Hansard entry:

8 Oct 2003 : Column WA60
Vermin

Lord Selsdon asked Her Majesty's Government:

Which mammals and other animals are classified as
"vermin".[HL4559]

Lord Whitty: There is no definition of the term "vermin" in UK law.
In such a situation the Oxford Dictionary definition should be
applied.

The Oxford Dictionary defines "vermin" as "Animals of a noxious or
objectionable kind. Originally applied to reptiles, stealthy, or
slinky animals, and various wild beasts; now, excluding in US and
Australia, almost entirely restricted to those animals or birds which
prey upon preserved game . . ."

The Small Ground Vermin Traps Order 1958 and the various Spring Traps
Approval Orders, refer to "small ground vermin". Neither the orders
nor the Pests Act 1954, under which they are made, define this term
or provide an exclusive list of species. However, the following
animals are listed under various orders: moles, grey squirrels,
rabbits, mink, stoats, weasels, rabbits, rats, and mice.

Traps approved under the Spring Traps Approval Order 1995 do not
apply to small ground vermin listed in Schedules 5 and 6 to the
Wildlife and Countryside Act 1981. This means that red squirrels,
dormice, water voles, shrews, hedgehogs, polecats and a number of
other species are excluded.

You are a vegan? 'cause you can't be sure that the animals used for
the production of meat or diary products have never suffered. Or is
that "necessary"?

snip diary products /snip
squirrel fur journal anyone?

I'm toying with the idea of annexing off the loft and creating a 'box' for
the fella, as was suggested earlier in this thread and I also considered at
the outset, so it was nice to know that 'another' had the same musings and
rendered me sane, at least partially

I have heard from a friend who ended up exterminating a treerat in his loft
after attempts to gently remove it nearly ended up with him being facially
disfigured... a chainsaw mask and welders gloves seem sensible when faced
with a cornered squirrel, on all fours, in a tight space

Why not wait until it is busy elsewhere before barricading the access?

As others have said, you really need to check for dependant offspring.

regards

--
Tim Lamb

In message , Bob Martin
writes
in 1047725 20110613 223614 fred wrote:
In article , Frank Erskine
writes
On Mon, 13 Jun 2011 13:36:59 +0100, fred wrote:

In article , Bob Martin
writes

About 20 years ago I chased a grey squirrel out of my loft and blocked the
access
holes.
For the next few weeks it was in my face whenever I looked out of
the landing
window
or went into the garden.
The next time I went up to the loft I found the remains of 3 baby
squirrels.
I have felt bad about it ever since.

Would you have felt so bad if they had been baby rats?

_I_ would.

In my book vermin are vermin, but out of respect I'll hold of on the
mice and shovel follow-up story.

I'm sure we've done this to death before but who decides what is vermin and
what isn't?

I guess people whose livelihood is/was affected by the activities of
other creatures. Now that we mostly live remotely from any aspect of
food production other views can flourish.

Isn't just a selfish "it conveniences me"?

Umm.. I suppose mice sharing your breakfast cereals or Squirrels
potentially destroying the cables in the loft can be a personal choice.
However, when it comes to producing and storing food I'm happy with the
current rules.

In my book anyone who causes unnecessary pain, suffering or death to
another creature is "vermin".

OK on unnecessary pain/suffering but death? How many ants do you
unwittingly kill crossing your lawn? Do you stop eating rice because of
the creatures killed in production?

regards

--
Tim Lamb

Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Tue, 14 Jun 2011 07:20:29 BST, Bob Martin wrote:

You are a vegan? 'cause you can't be sure that the animals used for
the production of meat or diary products have never suffered. Or is
that "necessary"?

How can anyone be a vegan when such things as bacon sandwiches exist?

--
Adam

In article , Bob Martin
writes
in 1047725 20110613 223614 fred wrote:
In article , Frank Erskine
writes
On Mon, 13 Jun 2011 13:36:59 +0100, fred wrote:

In article , Bob Martin
writes

About 20 years ago I chased a grey squirrel out of my loft and blocked the
access
holes.
For the next few weeks it was in my face whenever I looked out of the landing
window
or went into the garden.
The next time I went up to the loft I found the remains of 3 baby squirrels.
I have felt bad about it ever since.

Would you have felt so bad if they had been baby rats?

_I_ would.

In my book vermin are vermin, but out of respect I'll hold of on the
mice and shovel follow-up story.

I'm sure we've done this to death before but who decides what is vermin and
what isn't?

Start with destruction of crops or property and move on from there.

Isn't just a selfish "it conveniences me"?
In my book anyone who causes unnecessary pain, suffering or death to
another creature is "vermin".

Oh, boo hoo, you're not a bad person for accidentally killing those
squirrels and who said anything about causing intentional or unnecessary
suffering?
--
fred
FIVE TV's superbright logo - not the DOG's, it's ********

In article , ARWadsworth
writes
Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Tue, 14 Jun 2011 07:20:29 BST, Bob Martin wrote:

You are a vegan? 'cause you can't be sure that the animals used for
the production of meat or diary products have never suffered. Or is
that "necessary"?

How can anyone be a vegan when such things as bacon sandwiches exist?

Or muslim for that matter, one such chum has confessed that it is a
weakness of his.
--
fred
FIVE TV's superbright logo - not the DOG's, it's ********

fred wrote:
In article , Bob Martin
writes
in 1047725 20110613 223614 fred wrote:
In article , Frank
Erskine writes
On Mon, 13 Jun 2011 13:36:59 +0100, fred wrote:

In article , Bob Martin
writes

About 20 years ago I chased a grey squirrel out of my loft and
blocked the access holes.
For the next few weeks it was in my face whenever I looked out
of the landing window
or went into the garden.
The next time I went up to the loft I found the remains of 3
baby squirrels. I have felt bad about it ever since.

Would you have felt so bad if they had been baby rats?

_I_ would.

In my book vermin are vermin, but out of respect I'll hold of on the
mice and shovel follow-up story.

I'm sure we've done this to death before but who decides what is
vermin and what isn't?

Start with destruction of crops or property and move on from there.

I happily set the traps when rats infested my girlfriends house. The ****ers
ate the kitchen units. Mind you they also ate each other, I went in one
morning to check the traps and when I opened the cupboard door a rat was
eating it's dead mate.

Sometime death is the only solution, you cannot serve an eviction notice on
rats.

--
Adam

On Jun 14, 8:47*am, Tim Lamb wrote:

Why not wait until it is busy elsewhere before barricading the access?

As others have said, you really need to check for dependant offspring.

regards

--
Tim Lamb

Yeah, that makes sense.
I was going to probe around with a long batten while my son watched
the exit point for the bugger to vacate... then up into the loft to
check for babies and then, while he's out, put in the box or cap off
the soffits to keep him out... still pondering how much time to spend
in cramped loft Especially if there are no little ones and he can
relocate in these warmer months.

FWIW: I remember someone telling me (when I first discussed the cable
chewing incident in the pub) that using LowSmoke cable discourages
rodents from eating through it because it doesn't use the same kind of
oils used in its production as normal cable insulation, which they
like to chomp on.

A quick google to quantify this doesn't return much and the other
theory is that they use the cable as a "teething ring". Especially the
young 'uns which would explain why only the length of cable, between
the joists, in front of the nest was stripped!?

Google did however, also throw up this...
http://squirrelsatemywiring.com/
which makes me a little happier about my own small problem and less
inclined to exterminate the sod!

"ARWadsworth" wrote in message
...
Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Tue, 14 Jun 2011 07:20:29 BST, Bob Martin wrote:

You are a vegan? 'cause you can't be sure that the animals used for
the production of meat or diary products have never suffered. Or is
that "necessary"?

How can anyone be a vegan when such things as bacon sandwiches exist?

There is no such thing as a vegan (only people that think they are vegans)..
look at the stuff made from animal stuff and ask how they can avoid it..

tallow in fabric softeners rules out any shop bought cloths.
cattle hooves in fire fighting foam rules out air transport of anything they
use (like computer bits to read this post).
and that's just the start.
end of veganism in the UK.

On Jun 14, 7:20*am, Bob Martin wrote:
in 1047725 20110613 223614 fred wrote:









In article , Frank Erskine
writes
On Mon, 13 Jun 2011 13:36:59 +0100, fred wrote:

In article , Bob Martin
writes

About 20 years ago I chased a grey squirrel out of my loft and blocked the
access
holes.
For the next few weeks it was in my face whenever I looked out of the landing
window
or went into the garden.
The next time I went up to the loft I found the remains of 3 baby squirrels.
I have felt bad about it ever since.

Would you have felt so bad if they had been baby rats?

_I_ would.

In my book vermin are vermin, but out of respect I'll hold of on the
mice and shovel follow-up story.

I'm sure we've done this to death before but who decides what is vermin and
what isn't?
Isn't just a selfish "it conveniences me"?
In my book anyone who causes unnecessary pain, suffering or death to
another creature is "vermin".

Who decides what is neccessary or unneccessary?

MBQ

dennis@home wrote:
"ARWadsworth" wrote in message
...
Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Tue, 14 Jun 2011 07:20:29 BST, Bob Martin wrote:

You are a vegan? 'cause you can't be sure that the animals used for
the production of meat or diary products have never suffered. Or is
that "necessary"?

How can anyone be a vegan when such things as bacon sandwiches exist?

There is no such thing as a vegan

I agree. Vegans are either stupid, students or hippies. Or a combination of
that list.


--
Adam

Bob Martin wrote:

I'm sure we've done this to death before but who decides what is vermin
and
what isn't?

The species which best fits the label is the human being.
"We're a virus with shoes, okay? That's all we are"
Bill Hicks, RIP