Is it correct that the BT drop wire only has 2 wires connected in the
junction box?
Yet the output side of the junction box that goes to the actual telephone
sockets has 4 wires. So in effect 2 of these wires weren't doing something
or were they?

When I cut my external cable by accident, I had to connect all 4 wires to
get my broadband working correctly it wouldn't work with 2. Which I can't
fathom out.
However since I had to renew the cabling from the junction box in the loft,
I have only connected 2 wires and the broadband appears to be fine.

Here is a link to the junction box as a picture is worth a 1000 words.
http://i918.photobucket.com/albums/a...r/IMG_4858.jpg

What I'm asking is should I just leave as it is as 2 wires or go back to the
4?

Cheers.

"Steven Campbell" spam@away wrote in message
o.uk...
Is it correct that the BT drop wire only has 2 wires connected in the
junction box?
Yet the output side of the junction box that goes to the actual telephone
sockets has 4 wires. So in effect 2 of these wires weren't doing something
or were they?

When I cut my external cable by accident, I had to connect all 4 wires to
get my broadband working correctly it wouldn't work with 2. Which I can't
fathom out.
However since I had to renew the cabling from the junction box in the
loft,
I have only connected 2 wires and the broadband appears to be fine.

Here is a link to the junction box as a picture is worth a 1000 words.
http://i918.photobucket.com/albums/a...r/IMG_4858.jpg

What I'm asking is should I just leave as it is as 2 wires or go back to
the
4?

Just 2. Perhaps your external cable had been connected with two sets of
paired wires to try and get a better signal or perhaps as part of a fault
repair when the existing pair of wires went bad the engineer just added a
second pair of wires without removing the duff pair although I can't see
why. Every external line to the nearest telephone pole has spare wires in
the cable. I'm sure if you'd worked out which 2 of the 4 wires was the good
pair it would have worked ok.
--
Dave Baker

"DA" wrote in message
ups.com...
responding to
http://www.homeownershub.com/uk-diy/...rd-706733-.htm
DA wrote:
Here is a link to the junction box as a picture is worth a 1000 words.
http://i918.photobucket.com/albums/a...r/IMG_4858.jpg

What I'm asking is should I just leave as it is as 2 wires or go back
to the
4?

The second pair is for a second line. If you don't have the second line,
you don't need to worry about the second pair.

I did have a second line (now no more) but this was connected via the black
and green on the drop wire. It didn't actually come in to the junction box!
The second pair you refer to go to the actual sockets and are connected
there, hence 4 wires in the sockets yet only 2 in the junction box.


I do have a comment regarding your junction box though - your cables on
the right are 4 pair UTP (unshielded twisted pair) which means that
they'll have best performance if you use wires as they are paired. In
other words, if you only need to use one pair, you need to use blue and
white-blue conductors out of that 8-conductor cable. You could have used
other pairs, too, but blue is traditionally the pair #1 and it's also one
of the shortest conductors (because of its twist).

Thanks for that tip. I never installed the wiring that is how I found it. (I
took this picture before I changed the untwisted wiring)

You've used one conductor from each pair (only blue but not white-blue)
which left the other conductor in the pair unconnected and thus the pair
imbalanced, collecting EMI.

Again thanks. I'll make sure I use a pair. However I notice the drop wire
is untwisted so would using twisted for part of the journey, really not have
any benefit?

It's also not recommended to connect the two
conductors of the pair together to double up the cross-section (and use
another shortened pair as the second conductor) as it appears has been
done to the orange pair. In this case there is very little twist between
pairs in the cable and therefore it's no longer unshielded *Twisted* pair.
That, again, makes it susceptible to EMI.

Cheers. The orange/white cable isn't actually connected. I think looking at
the picture it is just a stray cable.

Steven.

Steven Campbell wrote:

Is it correct that the BT drop wire only has 2 wires connected in the
junction box?
Yet the output side of the junction box that goes to the actual telephone
sockets has 4 wires. So in effect 2 of these wires weren't doing something
or were they?


The external line has only two wires. The master socket splits off a
third, and in some cases a fourth, so the internal line has (up to) four
wires - not all of which are necessarily needed.

The pair that connect direct to the external line are usually blue and
white-blue. These carry voice, ringing, and ADSL. An ADSL router
connects direct to this pair (if you use a filter, the ADSL port is a
pass-through). Phones connect to this pair via a filter, or direct if
ADSL is not in use.

The orange wire is the bell wire, which carries only ringing. Most
phones don't need this and get their ring signal from the blue pair -
unless you have phones with actual bells in. Leaving this unconnected
can improve ADSL - the blue wires are a twisted pair but adding an extra
untwisted wire introduces noise.

The white-orange wire is earth. Nothing uses this nowadays on a standard
phone line, so this is not connected.

The green wires, if present, are not used.

There's something rather odd about your photo. The black cable is
presumably the incoming BT cable. Two pairs are connected, so presumably
two lines. One is crimped to the blue wires leading off the bottom of
the photo, so presumably that leads to a BT master socket. The other
pair goes into the junction box, where it all gets a bit confused. This
is BT's side of the master socket, so there should only be one cable -
but there are two, and the top one looks like cat5 rather than phone
cable (it is marked 4pr, phone cable has only three pairs). Also the
bottom terminal has three wires attached.
There should only be one cable on the right-hand side. The blue wire
should be attached to the top terminal, the white-blue to the bottom
terminal, and nothing to the middle one. The orange and green wires
should not be connected to anything. This should run to a BT master
socket. Any extensions should run from there - either from the removable
front if it's a linebox, or via a plug if it isn't.
It looks like someone has run an extension on the cheap by tapping into
the junction box. If BT find out this has been done then they can refuse
to fix any faults until they've corrected it - which they charge quite a
lot for. Also as the line isn't on a proper pair, it won't do ADSL speed
any good.


Mike

In message , Mike
Humphrey writes
Steven Campbell wrote:

Is it correct that the BT drop wire only has 2 wires connected in the
junction box?
Yet the output side of the junction box that goes to the actual telephone
sockets has 4 wires. So in effect 2 of these wires weren't doing something
or were they?


The external line has only two wires. The master socket splits off a
third, and in some cases a fourth, so the internal line has (up to) four
wires - not all of which are necessarily needed.

The pair that connect direct to the external line are usually blue and
white-blue. These carry voice, ringing, and ADSL. An ADSL router
connects direct to this pair (if you use a filter, the ADSL port is a
pass-through). Phones connect to this pair via a filter, or direct if
ADSL is not in use.

The orange wire is the bell wire, which carries only ringing. Most
phones don't need this and get their ring signal from the blue pair -
unless you have phones with actual bells in. Leaving this unconnected
can improve ADSL - the blue wires are a twisted pair but adding an extra
untwisted wire introduces noise.

The white-orange wire is earth. Nothing uses this nowadays on a standard
phone line, so this is not connected.

The green wires, if present, are not used.

There's something rather odd about your photo. The black cable is
presumably the incoming BT cable. Two pairs are connected, so presumably
two lines. One is crimped to the blue wires leading off the bottom of
the photo, so presumably that leads to a BT master socket. The other
pair goes into the junction box, where it all gets a bit confused. This
is BT's side of the master socket, so there should only be one cable -
but there are two, and the top one looks like cat5 rather than phone
cable (it is marked 4pr, phone cable has only three pairs). Also the
bottom terminal has three wires attached.
There should only be one cable on the right-hand side. The blue wire
should be attached to the top terminal, the white-blue to the bottom
terminal, and nothing to the middle one. The orange and green wires
should not be connected to anything. This should run to a BT master
socket. Any extensions should run from there - either from the removable
front if it's a linebox, or via a plug if it isn't.
It looks like someone has run an extension on the cheap by tapping into
the junction box. If BT find out this has been done then they can refuse
to fix any faults until they've corrected it - which they charge quite a
lot for. Also as the line isn't on a proper pair, it won't do ADSL speed
any good.

Have a look at:
http://www.wppltd.demon.co.uk/WPP/Wiring/UK_telephone/uk_telephone.html

--
ian

"Mike Humphrey" wrote in message
o.uk...
Steven Campbell wrote:

Is it correct that the BT drop wire only has 2 wires connected in the
junction box?
Yet the output side of the junction box that goes to the actual telephone
sockets has 4 wires. So in effect 2 of these wires weren't doing
something
or were they?


The external line has only two wires. The master socket splits off a
third, and in some cases a fourth, so the internal line has (up to) four
wires - not all of which are necessarily needed.

The pair that connect direct to the external line are usually blue and
white-blue. These carry voice, ringing, and ADSL. An ADSL router
connects direct to this pair (if you use a filter, the ADSL port is a
pass-through). Phones connect to this pair via a filter, or direct if
ADSL is not in use.

The orange wire is the bell wire, which carries only ringing. Most
phones don't need this and get their ring signal from the blue pair -
unless you have phones with actual bells in. Leaving this unconnected
can improve ADSL - the blue wires are a twisted pair but adding an extra
untwisted wire introduces noise.

The white-orange wire is earth. Nothing uses this nowadays on a standard
phone line, so this is not connected.

The green wires, if present, are not used.


Thanks for that. Some very good information there.


There's something rather odd about your photo. The black cable is
presumably the incoming BT cable. Two pairs are connected, so presumably
two lines. One is crimped to the blue wires leading off the bottom of
the photo, so presumably that leads to a BT master socket.

This was a second line that had a completely different cable connected to
it. I used to use this as an always on dial-up so our main line wasn't
always engaged. It has since been disconnected so those wires can be
ignored.

The other
pair goes into the junction box, where it all gets a bit confused. This
is BT's side of the master socket, so there should only be one cable -
but there are two, and the top one looks like cat5 rather than phone
cable (it is marked 4pr, phone cable has only three pairs). Also the
bottom terminal has three wires attached.

That is just a loose wire (orange /white) that isn't connected.

The top wire (4pr) runs from one side of the loft to the other and into
another junction box. From there the wire changes to proper telephone cable
wire and runs into my bedroom. Which I thought was the BT master socket but
since part of the run is in 4pr wire I doubt very much now that it is.
The bottom wire ran all the way down to the dining room and terminated in
what looked like a small accessory socket!

There should only be one cable on the right-hand side. The blue wire
should be attached to the top terminal, the white-blue to the bottom
terminal, and nothing to the middle one. The orange and green wires
should not be connected to anything. This should run to a BT master
socket. Any extensions should run from there - either from the removable
front if it's a linebox, or via a plug if it isn't.
It looks like someone has run an extension on the cheap by tapping into
the junction box. If BT find out this has been done then they can refuse
to fix any faults until they've corrected it - which they charge quite a
lot for.

I think you are right. Although I haven't done any work to the telephone
system apart from yesterday when I changed the wire going to the dining
room.

Also as the line isn't on a proper pair, it won't do ADSL speed
any good.

I don't follow you re the line on a proper pair?

Thanks.

Steven Campbell expressed precisely :
Is it correct that the BT drop wire only has 2 wires connected in the
junction box?
Yet the output side of the junction box that goes to the actual telephone
sockets has 4 wires. So in effect 2 of these wires weren't doing something
or were they?

When I cut my external cable by accident, I had to connect all 4 wires to
get my broadband working correctly it wouldn't work with 2. Which I can't
fathom out.
However since I had to renew the cabling from the junction box in the loft,
I have only connected 2 wires and the broadband appears to be fine.

Here is a link to the junction box as a picture is worth a 1000 words.
http://i918.photobucket.com/albums/a...r/IMG_4858.jpg

What I'm asking is should I just leave as it is as 2 wires or go back to the
4?

Cheers.

Pole to house - two wires is normal as a figure of 8 copper covered
steel core (grey). Later type is black, 2 copper cores, with two steel
reinforcing wires to form a round outer.

On an older installed, those two incoming wires may have been jointed
in a joint box to run to a new phone location using 2x pair or 3x pair.
With the spare wires used to double up or simply left unused.

The above should go to a master socket and from the master two pairs (4
wires) needed for most phones to work correctly in extra sockets.
Broadband can manage across just the two main wires from the pole.

--
Regards,
Harry (M1BYT) (L)
http://www.ukradioamateur.co.uk

Steven Campbell wrote:
Is it correct that the BT drop wire only has 2 wires connected in the
junction box?

yes.

Yet the output side of the junction box that goes to the actual telephone
sockets has 4 wires.

in reality, three IIRC.

So in effect 2 of these wires weren't doing something
or were they?


Might be.

When I cut my external cable by accident, I had to connect all 4 wires to
get my broadband working correctly it wouldn't work with 2. Which I can't
fathom out.

Thats probably because you reconnected the wrong 2. I've got 2 pair
coming in, but only one pair goes anywhere anymore. Used to be two lines...


However since I had to renew the cabling from the junction box in the loft,
I have only connected 2 wires and the broadband appears to be fine.

Exactly

Here is a link to the junction box as a picture is worth a 1000 words.
http://i918.photobucket.com/albums/a...r/IMG_4858.jpg

What I'm asking is should I just leave as it is as 2 wires or go back to the
4?

leave as 2 for broadband.

The 3rd wire is are reconstituted by a 'master' socket with a resistor
and a capacitor.

IIRC the 4th wire is 'anti-tinkle and tells local phone extensions not
to ring because someone is dialling out on a LD phone.



Cheers.

On Wed, 18 May 2011 21:12:56 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

The 3rd wire is are reconstituted by a 'master' socket with a resistor
and a capacitor.

IIRC the 4th wire is 'anti-tinkle and tells local phone extensions not
to ring because someone is dialling out on a LD phone.

No the wire at the junction of the C & R is the "anti-tinkle" as well
as the "bell" wire. It is shorted to the "A" wire (pins 3 & 5) when
the dial is moved off the backstop.

The other one would be earth for earth recall. Very rarely used these
days.

--
Cheers
Dave.

Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Wed, 18 May 2011 21:12:56 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

The 3rd wire is are reconstituted by a 'master' socket with a resistor
and a capacitor.

IIRC the 4th wire is 'anti-tinkle and tells local phone extensions not
to ring because someone is dialling out on a LD phone.

No the wire at the junction of the C & R is the "anti-tinkle" as well
as the "bell" wire. It is shorted to the "A" wire (pins 3 & 5) when
the dial is moved off the backstop.

The other one would be earth for earth recall. Very rarely used these
days.

ISC.

yep. that sounds better!

Steven Campbell wrote:

The top wire (4pr) runs from one side of the loft to the other and into
another junction box. From there the wire changes to proper telephone cable
wire and runs into my bedroom. Which I thought was the BT master socket but
since part of the run is in 4pr wire I doubt very much now that it is.
The bottom wire ran all the way down to the dining room and terminated in
what looked like a small accessory socket!

OK, one of those should be the master ond one a secondary. Does either
of them have a BT logo on it? If so, that's almost certainly the master.
If you can take the front off the socket, the master will have a
capacitor, resistor and surge supressor on the back.

If you want to make it look "normal", then you need the wire to go from
the junction box to the master socket, which must have a BT logo, using
standard phone cable. There should be no branches before the master
socket.
Since it sounds like neither socket is a linebox (with a split across
the middle), then the extension to the other room should be plugged into
the front of the master socket.

Also as the line isn't on a proper pair, it won't do ADSL speed
any good.

I don't follow you re the line on a proper pair?


From your picture, the line is on the orange and blue wires, which
aren't a pair. Each wire is twisted with its corresponding white: blue
with white-blue, orange with white-orange, green with white-green. The
twisting reduces interference that can slow down ADSL connections - two
wires from different pairs aren't twisted with each other, removing this
advantage.

Mike

"Mike Humphrey" wrote in message
o.uk...
Steven Campbell wrote:

The top wire (4pr) runs from one side of the loft to the other and into
another junction box. From there the wire changes to proper telephone
cable
wire and runs into my bedroom. Which I thought was the BT master socket
but
since part of the run is in 4pr wire I doubt very much now that it is.
The bottom wire ran all the way down to the dining room and terminated in
what looked like a small accessory socket!

OK, one of those should be the master ond one a secondary. Does either
of them have a BT logo on it? If so, that's almost certainly the master.
If you can take the front off the socket, the master will have a
capacitor, resistor and surge supressor on the back.

If you want to make it look "normal", then you need the wire to go from
the junction box to the master socket, which must have a BT logo, using
standard phone cable. There should be no branches before the master
socket.
Since it sounds like neither socket is a linebox (with a split across
the middle), then the extension to the other room should be plugged into
the front of the master socket.

Also as the line isn't on a proper pair, it won't do ADSL speed
any good.

I don't follow you re the line on a proper pair?


From your picture, the line is on the orange and blue wires, which
aren't a pair. Each wire is twisted with its corresponding white: blue
with white-blue, orange with white-orange, green with white-green. The
twisting reduces interference that can slow down ADSL connections - two
wires from different pairs aren't twisted with each other, removing this
advantage.

Mike

Thanks Mike. Your explanation of the wires being twisted with its
corresponding white wire makes sense to use as a pair however this drop wire
doesn't have the corresponding white wires, just solid coloured wires and
from what I can see they aren't twisted pairs.

On Fri, 20 May 2011 10:02:41 +0100, Steven Campbell wrote:

... however this drop wire doesn't have the corresponding white wires,
just solid coloured wires and from what I can see they aren't twisted

They will be further into the cable, they are paired orange/white and
green/black.

--
Cheers
Dave.

"Steven Campbell" spam@away wrote in message o.uk...

"Mike Humphrey" wrote in message o.uk...
Steven Campbell wrote:

The top wire (4pr) runs from one side of the loft to the other and into
another junction box. From there the wire changes to proper telephone cable
wire and runs into my bedroom. Which I thought was the BT master socket but
since part of the run is in 4pr wire I doubt very much now that it is.
The bottom wire ran all the way down to the dining room and terminated in
what looked like a small accessory socket!

OK, one of those should be the master ond one a secondary. Does either
of them have a BT logo on it? If so, that's almost certainly the master.
If you can take the front off the socket, the master will have a
capacitor, resistor and surge supressor on the back.

If you want to make it look "normal", then you need the wire to go from
the junction box to the master socket, which must have a BT logo, using
standard phone cable. There should be no branches before the master
socket.
Since it sounds like neither socket is a linebox (with a split across
the middle), then the extension to the other room should be plugged into
the front of the master socket.

Also as the line isn't on a proper pair, it won't do ADSL speed
any good.

I don't follow you re the line on a proper pair?


From your picture, the line is on the orange and blue wires, which
aren't a pair. Each wire is twisted with its corresponding white: blue
with white-blue, orange with white-orange, green with white-green. The
twisting reduces interference that can slow down ADSL connections - two
wires from different pairs aren't twisted with each other, removing this
advantage.

Mike

Thanks Mike. Your explanation of the wires being twisted with its corresponding white wire makes sense to use as a pair however
this drop wire doesn't have the corresponding white wires, just solid coloured wires and from what I can see they aren't twisted
pairs.

The white/orange and green/black wires are mutually twisted into pairs. the pairs
themselves are also mutually twisted at a lesser pitch.

The twist in telephone wire is not as pronounced as CAT5 but is very important
nonetheless to avoid crosstalk of speech frequencies and to act as a reasonably
efficient transmission line for radio frequencies (ADSL).

--
Graham.

%Profound_observation%