Hi,

We had a BT engineer visit yesterday to install BT Infinity. When I
got home, my wife told me that he managed to trip the main circuit
break when he was setting things up. I thought that this was a bit
odd as he was meant to be working on the telephone line! I bit of
investigation shows 2 screw holes above the mains sockets next to the
telephone line. It looks like he tried to wall mount the VDSL modem
directly above the power sockets and I am guessing that he put one of
the screws through the power cable behind the plasterboard. He must
have realised what he had done and mounted it next to the sockets
instead (he didnt say anything). All the sockets work OK. Is this
something to be worried about? What would be the next step if it
something to be worried about? I was planning on calling them and
saying that they need to get an electrician out to take a look, but I
suspect that they will try and get out of this. If I were to diy it
what would be the correct course of action? Remove a section of
plasterboard and cut out the wire between the damage and the socket
and put a new piece in (soldering?)?

Thanks

Alan

From the POV of professionalism - that's pretty bad - doing some
damage that has safety implications, and covering it up - he should be
hauled over the coals for that.

I was planning on calling them and
saying that they need to get an electrician out to take a look, but I
suspect that they will try and get out of this.

I'm sure they will try to wriggle, but at the very least I'd expect
them to supply or pay for a qualified electrician, and the circuit
tested.

Scream "electrical safety hazard", "wiring left in a dangerous state",
and "contravention of the wiring regulations" - and such things.

Without dissecting the wiring no-one can be certain. It could be a
live conductor or earth is now all but severed, or that there's only a
hairs-breadth of air acting as insulation between them - or it could
be that the pvc jacket closed up nicely when the screw was withdrawn.

On Apr 16, 8:17*am, AlanC wrote:
Hi,

We had a BT engineer visit yesterday to install BT Infinity. *When I
got home, my wife told me that he managed to trip the main circuit
break when he was setting things up. *I thought that this was a bit
odd as he was meant to be working on the telephone line! *I bit of
investigation shows 2 screw holes above the mains sockets next to the
telephone line. *It looks like he tried to wall mount the VDSL modem
directly above the power sockets and I am guessing that he put one of
the screws through the power cable behind the plasterboard. *He must
have realised what he had done and mounted it next to the sockets
instead (he didnt say anything). *All the sockets work OK. *Is this
something to be worried about? *What would be the next step if it
something to be worried about? *I was planning on calling them and
saying that they need to get an electrician out to take a look, but I
suspect that they will try and get out of this. *If I were to diy it
what would be the correct course of action? Remove a section of
plasterboard and cut out the wire between the damage and the socket
and put a new piece in (soldering?)?

Thanks

Alan

It wants checking out and SOON and the damage repaired. This fault
could potentially start a fire.
Isolate the circuit.
Get some extention leads for fridges etc.
Ring them straight away and read the riot act The ******* should be
sacked for sneaking off and leaving it like this.

AlanC wrote:
It looks like he tried to wall mount the VDSL modem
directly above the power sockets and I am guessing that he put one of
the screws through the power cable behind the plasterboard.

In 1997 Yorkshire Cable came to fit TV+Phone in my flat.
"A power cable runs under the floor 12 inches from the wall just
there" sayeth I, pointing. "Drill as close to the corner as possible".

I come back later to find a hole 12" from the wall, and another one
6" from the wall with the cable running under the carpet to it.

A couple of days later the tenant mentions the bedroom socket isn't
working. I lift the floorboard and run my hand along the cable to
find where it runs to. GNAB! Cooked pine smell. The buggers had only
gone and drilled right through the lbooyd cable, right where I'd
warned them not to.

Cue earlier-than-planned rewire and moved cable TV cable to a new
hole tight up to the corner of the floor instead of half a mile
under the carpet.

JGH

On 16/04/2011 08:17, AlanC wrote:
Hi,

We had a BT engineer visit yesterday to install BT Infinity. When I
got home, my wife told me that he managed to trip the main circuit
break when he was setting things up. I thought that this was a bit
odd as he was meant to be working on the telephone line! I bit of
investigation shows 2 screw holes above the mains sockets next to the
telephone line. It looks like he tried to wall mount the VDSL modem
directly above the power sockets and I am guessing that he put one of
the screws through the power cable behind the plasterboard. He must
have realised what he had done and mounted it next to the sockets
instead (he didnt say anything). All the sockets work OK. Is this
something to be worried about? What would be the next step if it
something to be worried about? I was planning on calling them and
saying that they need to get an electrician out to take a look, but I
suspect that they will try and get out of this. If I were to diy it
what would be the correct course of action? Remove a section of
plasterboard and cut out the wire between the damage and the socket
and put a new piece in (soldering?)?

Thanks

Alan
Lack of training. He was drilling into a 'protected zone' as defined in
IEE regs. They MUST come out and repair the damage.

Malcolm

AlanC wrote:
Hi,

We had a BT engineer visit yesterday to install BT Infinity. When I
got home, my wife told me that he managed to trip the main circuit
break when he was setting things up. I thought that this was a bit
odd as he was meant to be working on the telephone line! I bit of
investigation shows 2 screw holes above the mains sockets next to the
telephone line. It looks like he tried to wall mount the VDSL modem
directly above the power sockets and I am guessing that he put one of
the screws through the power cable behind the plasterboard. He must
have realised what he had done and mounted it next to the sockets
instead (he didnt say anything). All the sockets work OK. Is this
something to be worried about?

Yes.

What would be the next step if it
something to be worried about?

The circuit needs testing, it may even need the cable exposing where he
drilled the wall,

I was planning on calling them and
saying that they need to get an electrician out to take a look, but I
suspect that they will try and get out of this.

They made the mess they should fix it, including any decorationg costs.

If I were to diy it
what would be the correct course of action? Remove a section of
plasterboard and cut out the wire between the damage and the socket
and put a new piece in (soldering?)?

The cable would need replacing.
Usually with crimps
http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?title=Cable_crimping

Is this a stud wall or a dot and dab wall? You mention screwholes not drill
holes.

--
Adam

Lack of training. He was drilling into a 'protected zone' as defined
in IEE regs. They MUST come out and repair the damage.


I think they are usually described as "safe zones" in the regs and in
many publications (including the illustrious Wiki). So the root problem
might be that the idiot went on a course once where he was taught about
the "safe zones", got confused, and now thinks it means "safe to drill
here"?
--
Robin
PM may be sent to rbw0{at}hotmail{dot}com

On Sat, 16 Apr 2011 16:46:08 +0100, Malcolm wrote:

Lack of training. He was drilling into a 'protected zone' as defined in
IEE regs. They MUST come out and repair the damage.

But if the OP is contacting them, it would be a good idea to 'get it
right' and say 'IET regs'....



--
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
http://www.mirrorservice.org

*lightning protection* - a w_tom conductor

Bob Eager wrote:

On Sat, 16 Apr 2011 16:46:08 +0100, Malcolm wrote:

Lack of training. He was drilling into a 'protected zone' as defined in
IEE regs. They MUST come out and repair the damage.

But if the OP is contacting them, it would be a good idea to 'get it
right' and say 'IET regs'....




They seem to still be keeping the name "IEE" in such titles:

http://www.theiet.org/publishing/wir...ions/index.cfm

--
Tim Watts

On 16/04/2011 20:49, Bob Eager wrote:
On Sat, 16 Apr 2011 16:46:08 +0100, Malcolm wrote:

Lack of training. He was drilling into a 'protected zone' as defined in
IEE regs. They MUST come out and repair the damage.

But if the OP is contacting them, it would be a good idea to 'get it
right' and say 'IET regs'....

They are still called the IEE wiring regulations, even by the IET (IEE
Wiring Regulations - now available in e-book format, see
http://electrical.theiet.org/wiring-...tal/index.cfm). Of
course, the correct title is BS 7671:2008.


--
Old Codger
e-mail use reply to field

What matters in politics is not what happens, but what you can make
people believe has happened. [Janet Daley 27/8/2003]

On Sat, 16 Apr 2011 21:11:16 +0100, Tim Watts wrote:

Bob Eager wrote:

On Sat, 16 Apr 2011 16:46:08 +0100, Malcolm wrote:

Lack of training. He was drilling into a 'protected zone' as defined in
IEE regs. They MUST come out and repair the damage.

But if the OP is contacting them, it would be a good idea to 'get it
right' and say 'IET regs'....




They seem to still be keeping the name "IEE" in such titles:

http://www.theiet.org/publishing/wir...ions/index.cfm

In much the same way as "MOT" testing in DVLA-speak :-)

--
Frank Erskine

On Sat, 16 Apr 2011 21:22:48 +0100, Old Codger wrote:

On 16/04/2011 20:49, Bob Eager wrote:
On Sat, 16 Apr 2011 16:46:08 +0100, Malcolm wrote:

Lack of training. He was drilling into a 'protected zone' as defined
in IEE regs. They MUST come out and repair the damage.

But if the OP is contacting them, it would be a good idea to 'get it
right' and say 'IET regs'....

They are still called the IEE wiring regulations, even by the IET (IEE
Wiring Regulations - now available in e-book format, see
http://electrical.theiet.org/wiring-...tal/index.cfm). Of
course, the correct title is BS 7671:2008.

Apparently the latest amendments finally have 'IET' on them (found that
out at an IET meeting last Wednesday!).

Having said that, I think I was misinformed. The IET appear to be keeping
the 'IEE' imprint specifically for wiring regulations.

My apologies!



--
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
http://www.mirrorservice.org

*lightning protection* - a w_tom conductor

Just thought I would update you guys.

I spent most of this morning and afternoon on the phone to various
people at BT customer services (I think it was call centre in India),
insisting that they send someone out now to investigate and rectify
any faults. I kept getting the same response that no one will come
out at the weekend and all they can do is get BT Open Reach to call me
on Monday. It didnt matter how much I complained about leaving the
house in a dangerous state and a potential fire hazard. I even tried
the 'I have got children in the house' line (which I do). They
eventually gave me the number of their compensation department and
told me to arrange for an electrician myself.

I eventually managed to get someone to come out (harder than I
thought, most of them didnt even answer their phone and the ones that
did said they would call back and didnt). He cut out a square of the
plasterboard (I think its dot and dab as its quite close to the
thermal blocks behind) and we could see where the screw went traight
through the middle of the cable trunking. The guy removed part of the
trunking and the screw had gone straight through the middle of the
cable, severing the earth and exposing part of the live. He cut off
the damaged wire and replaced it with a new piece.

I took photo's of the various stages just in case BT try and get out
of it, which I am sure they will.

Just need to get someone in to repair the wall now. I could have done
all of this myself, but I kept thinking that if I do, we probably wont
be able to charge them for it. The electrician callout and first hour
was £130 plus £43 for every half hour after that. He did it in the
first hour.

If only they did a self install option for BT Infinity. I would have
been better off doing it myself.

Thanks for the advice guys.

On Sat, 16 Apr 2011 15:19:13 -0700 (PDT), AlanC
wrote:

Just thought I would update you guys.

I spent most of this morning and afternoon on the phone to various
people at BT customer services (I think it was call centre in India),
insisting that they send someone out now to investigate and rectify
any faults. I kept getting the same response that no one will come
out at the weekend and all they can do is get BT Open Reach to call me
on Monday. It didnt matter how much I complained about leaving the
house in a dangerous state and a potential fire hazard. I even tried
the 'I have got children in the house' line (which I do).

I can't really see the significance of "chilldren in the house". Are
they more inflammable than normal people?

--
Frank Erskine

"Frank Erskine" wrote in message ...
On Sat, 16 Apr 2011 21:11:16 +0100, Tim Watts wrote:

Bob Eager wrote:

On Sat, 16 Apr 2011 16:46:08 +0100, Malcolm wrote:

Lack of training. He was drilling into a 'protected zone' as defined in
IEE regs. They MUST come out and repair the damage.

But if the OP is contacting them, it would be a good idea to 'get it
right' and say 'IET regs'....




They seem to still be keeping the name "IEE" in such titles:

http://www.theiet.org/publishing/wir...ions/index.cfm

In much the same way as "MOT" testing in DVLA-speak :-)

--
Frank Erskine
VOSA speak or DfT speak more like.

--
Graham.

%Profound_observation%

On 16/04/2011 21:32, Bob Eager wrote:

Having said that, I think I was misinformed. The IET appear to be keeping
the 'IEE' imprint specifically for wiring regulations.

Not for much longer. The first amendment to BS 7671:2008 will be
subtitled "IET Wiring regulations, 17th edition." This was originally
due to be out this July. I don't know whether that date has slipped
(and their website seems to be down at the moment).

--
Andy

On Sun, 17 Apr 2011 01:15:40 +0100, Andy Wade wrote:

On 16/04/2011 21:32, Bob Eager wrote:

Having said that, I think I was misinformed. The IET appear to be
keeping the 'IEE' imprint specifically for wiring regulations.

Not for much longer. The first amendment to BS 7671:2008 will be
subtitled "IET Wiring regulations, 17th edition." This was originally
due to be out this July. I don't know whether that date has slipped
(and their website seems to be down at the moment).

Ah, I wasn't misinformed then! The guy was a long-time IET member working
for many years as an electrical contractor, so I would have expected him
to have been right...



--
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
http://www.mirrorservice.org

*lightning protection* - a w_tom conductor

On Apr 17, 12:23*am, Frank Erskine
wrote:

I can't really see the significance of "chilldren in the house". Are
they more inflammable than normal people?

--
Frank Erskine

Hang on, I'll check.

'Kid's, dad needs you for a minute......'

On Sat, 16 Apr 2011 15:19:13 -0700 (PDT), AlanC wrote:

I eventually managed to get someone to come out (harder than I
thought, most of them didnt even answer their phone and the ones that
did said they would call back and didnt).

It's the weekend people don't work weekends...

I took photo's of the various stages just in case BT try and get out
of it, which I am sure they will.

Oh they will wriggle and squirm and say that you shouldn't have got
someone in etc etc. But don't take any of that nonsense and don't
bother phoning other than to get the address to send your claim to.

Keep copies of everything you send, send it recorded delivery and
keep notes of all contact (dates/times) etc of the whole tale right
from the beginning.

The claim should be for the whole amounts (inc VAT etc) that you have
been charged plus lets say £100 compensation for your stress, time
and incidental costs incurred (calls to electricians, builders etc).
Give them 30 days from date of claim to pay. Hopefully they will
contact you and probably haggle about the compensation, they really
can't about the direct costs you have incurred. That's why I suggest
£100 so you can come down a and still cover you incidentals and have
a bit for a stress relieving beer or two.

If (when...) you haven't been paid by 30 days write again giving the
7 days to pay otherwise you will file a Small Claims Court case
against them. They really don't have a leg to stand on and the claim
can be filed on line.

You can't really do much about the disciplinary action that should
also be taken against the BT Openreach employee that caused the
problem in the first place. It might be worth trying to get in touch
with the local BT Openreach office and formally reporting/complaining
to them. That employee really needs some training or the sack.

--
Cheers
Dave.

On Apr 16, 11:19*pm, AlanC wrote:
Just thought I would update you guys.

I spent most of this morning and afternoon on the phone to various
people at BT customer services (I think it was call centre in India),
insisting that they send someone out now to investigate and rectify
any faults. *I kept getting the same response that no one will come
out at the weekend and all they can do is get BT Open Reach to call me
on Monday. *It didnt matter how much I complained about leaving the
house in a dangerous state and a potential fire hazard. *I even tried
the 'I have got children in the house' line (which I do). *They
eventually gave me the number of their compensation department and
told me to arrange for an electrician myself.

I eventually managed to get someone to come out (harder than I
thought, most of them didnt even answer their phone and the ones that
did said they would call back and didnt). *He cut out a square of the
plasterboard (I think its dot and dab as its quite close to the
thermal blocks behind) and we could see where the screw went traight
through the middle of the cable trunking. *The guy removed part of the
trunking and the screw had gone straight through the middle of the
cable, severing the earth and exposing part of the live. *He cut off
the damaged wire and replaced it with a new piece.

I took photo's of the various stages just in case BT try and get out
of it, which I am sure they will.

Just need to get someone in to repair the wall now. *I could have done
all of this myself, but I kept thinking that if I do, we probably wont
be able to charge them for it. *The electrician callout and first hour
was £130 plus £43 for every half hour after that. *He did it in the
first hour.

If only they did a self install option for BT Infinity. *I would have
been better off doing it myself.

Thanks for the advice guys.

Ofcom is your friend:

http://www.ofcom.org.uk/

I'd also suggest communicating only by letter, and insisting they do
likewise.

If they try to settle on the phone, say you've been advised not to
discuss it.

AlanC wrote:
Just thought I would update you guys.

I spent most of this morning and afternoon on the phone to various
people at BT customer services (I think it was call centre in India),
insisting that they send someone out now to investigate and rectify
any faults. I kept getting the same response that no one will come
out at the weekend and all they can do is get BT Open Reach to call me
on Monday. It didnt matter how much I complained about leaving the
house in a dangerous state and a potential fire hazard. I even tried
the 'I have got children in the house' line (which I do). They
eventually gave me the number of their compensation department and
told me to arrange for an electrician myself.

I eventually managed to get someone to come out (harder than I
thought, most of them didnt even answer their phone and the ones that
did said they would call back and didnt). He cut out a square of the
plasterboard (I think its dot and dab as its quite close to the
thermal blocks behind) and we could see where the screw went traight
through the middle of the cable trunking. The guy removed part of the
trunking and the screw had gone straight through the middle of the
cable, severing the earth and exposing part of the live. He cut off
the damaged wire and replaced it with a new piece.

I took photo's of the various stages just in case BT try and get out
of it, which I am sure they will.


If they told you to get an electrician out then I doubt very much that they
will try to wriggle.

They are used to it.

--
Adam

On 17/04/2011 00:23, Frank Erskine wrote:
On Sat, 16 Apr 2011 15:19:13 -0700 (PDT), AlanC
wrote:

Just thought I would update you guys.

I spent most of this morning and afternoon on the phone to various
people at BT customer services (I think it was call centre in India),
insisting that they send someone out now to investigate and rectify
any faults. I kept getting the same response that no one will come
out at the weekend and all they can do is get BT Open Reach to call me
on Monday. It didnt matter how much I complained about leaving the
house in a dangerous state and a potential fire hazard. I even tried
the 'I have got children in the house' line (which I do).

I can't really see the significance of "chilldren in the house". Are
they more inflammable than normal people?

They are certainly more at risk and also increase the risk to adults as
they are more likely to make silly decisions in a fire, such as hiding
under a bed or in a wardrobe because they are scared - firefighters are
trained to look in such places for this very reason. Many children have
died trapped in fires while adults have managed to make it out and
adults have also died going back in to get them.

You could isolate the supply, but whether that is sensible with young
kids that may be scared of the dark, the risks of using candles as
emergency lighting, lack of heating and hot water if the weather is cold
and even the problem of kids using a toilet in the dark is questionable,
when an organisation such as BT should be able to get hold of an
emergeny electrician for you 24/7.

Of course what BT really meant was that their inflexible procedures
won't allow someone to make the sensible decision to simply call a local
emergency electrician and have them send the invoice directly.

SteveW

Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Sat, 16 Apr 2011 15:19:13 -0700 (PDT), AlanC wrote:

I eventually managed to get someone to come out (harder than I
thought, most of them didnt even answer their phone and the ones that
did said they would call back and didnt).

It's the weekend people don't work weekends...

I took photo's of the various stages just in case BT try and get out
of it, which I am sure they will.

Oh they will wriggle and squirm and say that you shouldn't have got
someone in etc etc. But don't take any of that nonsense and don't
bother phoning other than to get the address to send your claim to.

Keep copies of everything you send, send it recorded delivery and
keep notes of all contact (dates/times) etc of the whole tale right
from the beginning.

The claim should be for the whole amounts (inc VAT etc) that you have
been charged plus lets say £100 compensation for your stress, time
and incidental costs incurred (calls to electricians, builders etc).
Give them 30 days from date of claim to pay. Hopefully they will
contact you and probably haggle about the compensation, they really
can't about the direct costs you have incurred. That's why I suggest
£100 so you can come down a and still cover you incidentals and have
a bit for a stress relieving beer or two.

If (when...) you haven't been paid by 30 days write again giving the
7 days to pay otherwise you will file a Small Claims Court case
against them. They really don't have a leg to stand on and the claim
can be filed on line.

You can't really do much about the disciplinary action that should
also be taken against the BT Openreach employee that caused the
problem in the first place. It might be worth trying to get in touch
with the local BT Openreach office and formally reporting/complaining
to them. That employee really needs some training or the sack.

Very good advice from Dave there. As an ex-BT engineer with 25 years
service, all I can say is that they will sort it. I've had a disaster or two
in my time (including losing balance of my ladders whilst carrying them
extended and they smashed through a window, and also damaging a hand-painted
pub sign (driving a higher-than-normal van that day) that cost £1,500 to
have replaced) and our boss said that he didn't care what we'd done as long
as we told him immediately and were honest about it.

Steve Walker wrote:
On 17/04/2011 00:23, Frank Erskine wrote:
On Sat, 16 Apr 2011 15:19:13 -0700 (PDT), AlanC
wrote:

Just thought I would update you guys.

I spent most of this morning and afternoon on the phone to various
people at BT customer services (I think it was call centre in
India), insisting that they send someone out now to investigate and
rectify any faults. I kept getting the same response that no one
will come out at the weekend and all they can do is get BT Open
Reach to call me on Monday. It didnt matter how much I complained
about leaving the house in a dangerous state and a potential fire
hazard. I even tried the 'I have got children in the house' line
(which I do).

I can't really see the significance of "chilldren in the house". Are
they more inflammable than normal people?

They are certainly more at risk and also increase the risk to adults
as they are more likely to make silly decisions in a fire, such as
hiding under a bed or in a wardrobe because they are scared -
firefighters are trained to look in such places for this very reason.
Many children have died trapped in fires while adults have managed to
make it out and adults have also died going back in to get them.

You could isolate the supply, but whether that is sensible with young
kids that may be scared of the dark, the risks of using candles as
emergency lighting, lack of heating and hot water if the weather is
cold and even the problem of kids using a toilet in the dark

He said that it's a cable feeding the "power sockets" so isolating that
would not cause anyone to be in the dark as lights are run on different
circuits.

On 17/04/2011 15:09, Dave wrote:
Steve Walker wrote:
On 17/04/2011 00:23, Frank Erskine wrote:
On Sat, 16 Apr 2011 15:19:13 -0700 (PDT), AlanC
wrote:

Just thought I would update you guys.

I spent most of this morning and afternoon on the phone to various
people at BT customer services (I think it was call centre in
India), insisting that they send someone out now to investigate and
rectify any faults. I kept getting the same response that no one
will come out at the weekend and all they can do is get BT Open
Reach to call me on Monday. It didnt matter how much I complained
about leaving the house in a dangerous state and a potential fire
hazard. I even tried the 'I have got children in the house' line
(which I do).

I can't really see the significance of "chilldren in the house". Are
they more inflammable than normal people?

They are certainly more at risk and also increase the risk to adults
as they are more likely to make silly decisions in a fire, such as
hiding under a bed or in a wardrobe because they are scared -
firefighters are trained to look in such places for this very reason.
Many children have died trapped in fires while adults have managed to
make it out and adults have also died going back in to get them.

You could isolate the supply, but whether that is sensible with young
kids that may be scared of the dark, the risks of using candles as
emergency lighting, lack of heating and hot water if the weather is
cold and even the problem of kids using a toilet in the dark

He said that it's a cable feeding the "power sockets" so isolating that
would not cause anyone to be in the dark as lights are run on different
circuits.

I was answering the inflammable children post, not the original post and
therefore speaking of damage in a general sense, not the specific case.
I should have made that clearer.

Some householders would not know what to do and would either leave
everything on or everything off.

As an aside a damaged cable with a continuous neutral to earth fault
would still trip an RCD even if the circuit's MCB was switched off and
with a 17th edition installation, this would take out all the upstairs
(or downstairs) lights along with the sockets of the downstairs (or
upstairs) floor.

SteveW

Steve Walker wrote:
On 17/04/2011 15:09, Dave wrote:
Steve Walker wrote:
On 17/04/2011 00:23, Frank Erskine wrote:
On Sat, 16 Apr 2011 15:19:13 -0700 (PDT), AlanC
wrote:

Just thought I would update you guys.

I spent most of this morning and afternoon on the phone to various
people at BT customer services (I think it was call centre in
India), insisting that they send someone out now to investigate
and rectify any faults. I kept getting the same response that no
one will come out at the weekend and all they can do is get BT
Open Reach to call me on Monday. It didnt matter how much I
complained about leaving the house in a dangerous state and a
potential fire hazard. I even tried the 'I have got children in
the house' line (which I do).

I can't really see the significance of "chilldren in the house".
Are they more inflammable than normal people?

They are certainly more at risk and also increase the risk to adults
as they are more likely to make silly decisions in a fire, such as
hiding under a bed or in a wardrobe because they are scared -
firefighters are trained to look in such places for this very
reason. Many children have died trapped in fires while adults have
managed to make it out and adults have also died going back in to
get them. You could isolate the supply, but whether that is sensible
with
young kids that may be scared of the dark, the risks of using
candles as emergency lighting, lack of heating and hot water if the
weather is cold and even the problem of kids using a toilet in the
dark

He said that it's a cable feeding the "power sockets" so isolating
that would not cause anyone to be in the dark as lights are run on
different circuits.

I was answering the inflammable children post, not the original post
and therefore speaking of damage in a general sense, not the specific
case. I should have made that clearer.

Some householders would not know what to do and would either leave
everything on or everything off.

There are plenty of people that do not know what to do. The OP did the right
thing IMHO.
I would have liked to said not to get an electrician in until Monday, but I
decided not to as the OP had not given enough info. Personally I did not see
it as a fire risk, however as I had not seen the damage I kept my mouth
shut. The damage was not he OPs fault and BT should pay for the weekend
callout for an electrician.


As an aside a damaged cable with a continuous neutral to earth fault
would still trip an RCD even if the circuit's MCB was switched off and
with a 17th edition installation, this would take out all the upstairs
(or downstairs) lights along with the sockets of the downstairs (or
upstairs) floor.

Only on the cheap installations. A 17th edition CU can mean anything from a
dual RCD setup to all RCBOs.

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?...onsumer_Units#

Cheers
--
Adam

On 17/04/2011 21:23, ARWadsworth wrote:
Steve wrote:
On 17/04/2011 15:09, Dave wrote:
Steve Walker wrote:
On 17/04/2011 00:23, Frank Erskine wrote:
On Sat, 16 Apr 2011 15:19:13 -0700 (PDT), AlanC
wrote:

Just thought I would update you guys.

I spent most of this morning and afternoon on the phone to various
people at BT customer services (I think it was call centre in
India), insisting that they send someone out now to investigate
and rectify any faults. I kept getting the same response that no
one will come out at the weekend and all they can do is get BT
Open Reach to call me on Monday. It didnt matter how much I
complained about leaving the house in a dangerous state and a
potential fire hazard. I even tried the 'I have got children in
the house' line (which I do).

I can't really see the significance of "chilldren in the house".
Are they more inflammable than normal people?

They are certainly more at risk and also increase the risk to adults
as they are more likely to make silly decisions in a fire, such as
hiding under a bed or in a wardrobe because they are scared -
firefighters are trained to look in such places for this very
reason. Many children have died trapped in fires while adults have
managed to make it out and adults have also died going back in to
get them. You could isolate the supply, but whether that is sensible
with
young kids that may be scared of the dark, the risks of using
candles as emergency lighting, lack of heating and hot water if the
weather is cold and even the problem of kids using a toilet in the
dark

He said that it's a cable feeding the "power sockets" so isolating
that would not cause anyone to be in the dark as lights are run on
different circuits.

I was answering the inflammable children post, not the original post
and therefore speaking of damage in a general sense, not the specific
case. I should have made that clearer.

Some householders would not know what to do and would either leave
everything on or everything off.

There are plenty of people that do not know what to do. The OP did the right
thing IMHO.
I would have liked to said not to get an electrician in until Monday, but I
decided not to as the OP had not given enough info. Personally I did not see
it as a fire risk, however as I had not seen the damage I kept my mouth
shut. The damage was not he OPs fault and BT should pay for the weekend
callout for an electrician.

Agreed. The whole problem is that BT's employee has made a mistake that
he really shouldn't have and BT should have some way of dealing with it
promptly, without the housholder having to do anything other than call
them once. I'm sure that BT will refund the cost of the electrician, but
the OP shouldn't have had to pay it in the first place - some people may
not be able to easily do so at short notice.

With hindsight, further information from the OP indicates that the earth
had been cut. Many householders would have assumed that everything was
okay as everything was working and would have been left with one or more
unearthed sockets.

As an aside a damaged cable with a continuous neutral to earth fault
would still trip an RCD even if the circuit's MCB was switched off and
with a 17th edition installation, this would take out all the upstairs
(or downstairs) lights along with the sockets of the downstairs (or
upstairs) floor.

Only on the cheap installations. A 17th edition CU can mean anything from a
dual RCD setup to all RCBOs.

Indeed, but until the price of RCBOs comes down, I would expect a large
number of householders and landlords to opt for the cheaper setup - I
don't know, that's not my field of work, you would have a much better
idea of ratios here. I've seen basic 17th edition consumer units, fully
populated, for as little as £50. Unless you know somewhere particularly
good, that wouldn't even buy two RCBOs for most consumer units.

SteveW

"Steve Walker" wrote in message
...


I've seen basic 17th edition consumer units, fully populated, for as
little as £50. Unless you know somewhere particularly good, that wouldn't
even buy two RCBOs for most consumer units.

£20 each in toolstation,

Steve Walker wrote:
On 17/04/2011 21:23, ARWadsworth wrote:
Steve wrote:
On 17/04/2011 15:09, Dave wrote:
Steve Walker wrote:
On 17/04/2011 00:23, Frank Erskine wrote:
On Sat, 16 Apr 2011 15:19:13 -0700 (PDT), AlanC
wrote:

Just thought I would update you guys.

I spent most of this morning and afternoon on the phone to
various people at BT customer services (I think it was call
centre in India), insisting that they send someone out now to
investigate and rectify any faults. I kept getting the same
response that no one will come out at the weekend and all they
can do is get BT Open Reach to call me on Monday. It didnt
matter how much I complained about leaving the house in a
dangerous state and a potential fire hazard. I even tried the
'I have got children in the house' line (which I do).

I can't really see the significance of "chilldren in the house".
Are they more inflammable than normal people?

They are certainly more at risk and also increase the risk to
adults as they are more likely to make silly decisions in a fire,
such as hiding under a bed or in a wardrobe because they are
scared - firefighters are trained to look in such places for this
very reason. Many children have died trapped in fires while
adults have managed to make it out and adults have also died
going back in to get them. You could isolate the supply, but
whether that is sensible with
young kids that may be scared of the dark, the risks of using
candles as emergency lighting, lack of heating and hot water if
the weather is cold and even the problem of kids using a toilet
in the dark

He said that it's a cable feeding the "power sockets" so isolating
that would not cause anyone to be in the dark as lights are run on
different circuits.

I was answering the inflammable children post, not the original post
and therefore speaking of damage in a general sense, not the
specific case. I should have made that clearer.

Some householders would not know what to do and would either leave
everything on or everything off.

There are plenty of people that do not know what to do. The OP did
the right thing IMHO.
I would have liked to said not to get an electrician in until
Monday, but I decided not to as the OP had not given enough info.
Personally I did not see it as a fire risk, however as I had not
seen the damage I kept my mouth shut. The damage was not he OPs
fault and BT should pay for the weekend callout for an electrician.

Agreed. The whole problem is that BT's employee has made a mistake
that he really shouldn't have and BT should have some way of dealing
with it promptly, without the housholder having to do anything other
than call them once. I'm sure that BT will refund the cost of the
electrician, but the OP shouldn't have had to pay it in the first
place - some people may not be able to easily do so at short notice.

The BT engineer said nothing and made it the OPs problem. BT really should
be able to deal with this, but in reallity BT can only just about manage to
make a telephone work!

With hindsight, further information from the OP indicates that the
earth had been cut. Many householders would have assumed that
everything was okay as everything was working and would have been
left with one or more unearthed sockets.

Not a good situation to be in, I agree. The OP came here for advice about
his electrics and he got some good advice and followed it up by getting an
electrician in. All that is left is to debate his compensation. Redecorating
the damaged plaster could result in a whole room being repainted.

As an aside a damaged cable with a continuous neutral to earth fault
would still trip an RCD even if the circuit's MCB was switched off
and with a 17th edition installation, this would take out all the
upstairs (or downstairs) lights along with the sockets of the
downstairs (or upstairs) floor.

Only on the cheap installations. A 17th edition CU can mean anything
from a dual RCD setup to all RCBOs.

Indeed, but until the price of RCBOs comes down, I would expect a
large number of householders and landlords to opt for the cheaper
setup - I don't know, that's not my field of work, you would have a
much better idea of ratios here. I've seen basic 17th edition
consumer units, fully populated, for as little as £50. Unless you
know somewhere particularly good, that wouldn't even buy two RCBOs
for most consumer units.

Not now that VAT is 20% :-)

--
Adam

dennis@home wrote:
"Steve Walker" wrote in
message ...


I've seen basic 17th edition consumer units, fully populated, for as
little as £50. Unless you know somewhere particularly good, that
wouldn't even buy two RCBOs for most consumer units.

£20 each in toolstation,

Jesus wept. I have just looked at their prices for Wylex RCBOs. £32.67 plus
VAT.

The last one I bought was £22.50 plus VAT at the wholesalers

--
Adam

ARWadsworth wrote:
dennis@home wrote:
"Steve Walker" wrote in
message ...


I've seen basic 17th edition consumer units, fully populated, for as
little as £50. Unless you know somewhere particularly good, that
wouldn't even buy two RCBOs for most consumer units.

£20 each in toolstation,

Jesus wept. I have just looked at their prices for Wylex RCBOs.
£32.67 plus VAT.

The last one I bought was £22.50 plus VAT at the wholesalers

Got that one wrong, it was £22.50 plus vat for a Hager RCBO, the Wylex RCBO
was only £17.50 plus vat.

--
Adam

"ARWadsworth" wrote in message
...
dennis@home wrote:
"Steve Walker" wrote in
message ...


I've seen basic 17th edition consumer units, fully populated, for as
little as £50. Unless you know somewhere particularly good, that
wouldn't even buy two RCBOs for most consumer units.

£20 each in toolstation,

Jesus wept. I have just looked at their prices for Wylex RCBOs. £32.67
plus VAT.

Their web prices include VAT.

The CED ones are 19.88 inc VAT.
I prefer MK myself.


The last one I bought was £22.50 plus VAT at the wholesalers

--
Adam

dennis@home wrote:
"ARWadsworth" wrote in message
...
dennis@home wrote:
"Steve Walker" wrote in
message ...


I've seen basic 17th edition consumer units, fully populated, for
as little as £50. Unless you know somewhere particularly good, that
wouldn't even buy two RCBOs for most consumer units.

£20 each in toolstation,

Jesus wept. I have just looked at their prices for Wylex RCBOs.
£32.67 plus VAT.

Their web prices include VAT.

The CED ones are 19.88 inc VAT.
I prefer MK myself.


CED is not a common brand of CU. It is heavily discounted to get good sales
with some wholesalers. BG are doing the same.

And MK are no longer the leaders IMHO. Hager are better. But only based on
my opinion of fitting lots of CUs. Wylex CU are now as good as MK but have a
more limited range of accessories to fit the CU.

If I was asked what CU I would prefer in my house then it would have to be
Hager.

--
Adam

In article , Steve Walker steve.m.walke
scribeth thus
On 17/04/2011 00:23, Frank Erskine wrote:
On Sat, 16 Apr 2011 15:19:13 -0700 (PDT), AlanC
wrote:

Just thought I would update you guys.

I spent most of this morning and afternoon on the phone to various
people at BT customer services (I think it was call centre in India),
insisting that they send someone out now to investigate and rectify
any faults. I kept getting the same response that no one will come
out at the weekend and all they can do is get BT Open Reach to call me
on Monday. It didnt matter how much I complained about leaving the
house in a dangerous state and a potential fire hazard. I even tried
the 'I have got children in the house' line (which I do).

I can't really see the significance of "chilldren in the house". Are
they more inflammable than normal people?

They are certainly more at risk and also increase the risk to adults as
they are more likely to make silly decisions in a fire, such as hiding
under a bed or in a wardrobe because they are scared - firefighters are
trained to look in such places for this very reason. Many children have
died trapped in fires while adults have managed to make it out and
adults have also died going back in to get them.


Once told to me by a mate who was in the service..


1. Get out.

2. Get the fire brigade out.

3. Stay out...


You could isolate the supply, but whether that is sensible with young
kids that may be scared of the dark, the risks of using candles as
emergency lighting, lack of heating and hot water if the weather is cold
and even the problem of kids using a toilet in the dark is questionable,
when an organisation such as BT should be able to get hold of an
emergeny electrician for you 24/7.

Up **** Brewery arrange in couldn't a ....

Of course what BT really meant was that their inflexible procedures
won't allow someone to make the sensible decision to simply call a local
emergency electrician and have them send the invoice directly.

SteveW

--
Tony Sayer

On 17/04/2011 23:05, tony sayer wrote:
In , Steve Walkersteve.m.walke
scribeth thus
On 17/04/2011 00:23, Frank Erskine wrote:
On Sat, 16 Apr 2011 15:19:13 -0700 (PDT), AlanC
wrote:

Just thought I would update you guys.

I spent most of this morning and afternoon on the phone to various
people at BT customer services (I think it was call centre in India),
insisting that they send someone out now to investigate and rectify
any faults. I kept getting the same response that no one will come
out at the weekend and all they can do is get BT Open Reach to call me
on Monday. It didnt matter how much I complained about leaving the
house in a dangerous state and a potential fire hazard. I even tried
the 'I have got children in the house' line (which I do).

I can't really see the significance of "chilldren in the house". Are
they more inflammable than normal people?

They are certainly more at risk and also increase the risk to adults as
they are more likely to make silly decisions in a fire, such as hiding
under a bed or in a wardrobe because they are scared - firefighters are
trained to look in such places for this very reason. Many children have
died trapped in fires while adults have managed to make it out and
adults have also died going back in to get them.


Once told to me by a mate who was in the service..


1. Get out.

2. Get the fire brigade out.

3. Stay out...

That's long been the advice and it's good advice. I would not go back
for pets or belongings, but if my wife or one of my children were to be
trapped in a burning house, I don't think that I would be staying out
and waiting for the fire brigade!

SteveW

On Sun, 17 Apr 2011 21:53:21 +0100, Steve Walker wrote:

With hindsight, further information from the OP indicates that the earth
had been cut. Many householders would have assumed that everything was
okay as everything was working and would have been left with one or more
unearthed sockets.

I agree, many people would assume that as the "trained engineer"
didn't say anything and everything works it's OK. All cable damage
needs to be inspected. Cable damage that causes an RCD to trip really
does need inspection before power is restored and I wouldn't be happy
leaving it with power applied.

The cable was power to a socket, presumably on a ring, with only a
single break in the earth. All sockets would still be earthed due to
the ring nature of the circuit. But would the earth loop impedance
now be high enough to stop some protection (plug top fuse?) operating
within the prescribed limits?

I can't decide if the sack is too good for this BT engineer. If he
doesn't know the basics of electrical installation practice (safe
zones etc) he shouldn't have been let loose in peoples homes with a
drill or screwdriver.

--
Cheers
Dave.

On Sun, 17 Apr 2011 23:52:12 +0100, Dave Liquorice wrote:

On Sun, 17 Apr 2011 21:53:21 +0100, Steve Walker wrote:

With hindsight, further information from the OP indicates that the
earth had been cut. Many householders would have assumed that
everything was okay as everything was working and would have been left
with one or more unearthed sockets.

I agree, many people would assume that as the "trained engineer" didn't
say anything and everything works it's OK. All cable damage needs to be
inspected. Cable damage that causes an RCD to trip really does need
inspection before power is restored and I wouldn't be happy leaving it
with power applied.

The cable was power to a socket, presumably on a ring, with only a
single break in the earth. All sockets would still be earthed due to the
ring nature of the circuit. But would the earth loop impedance now be
high enough to stop some protection (plug top fuse?) operating within
the prescribed limits?

I can't decide if the sack is too good for this BT engineer. If he
doesn't know the basics of electrical installation practice (safe zones
etc) he shouldn't have been let loose in peoples homes with a drill or
screwdriver.

How about reporting it to the HSE too?

--
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
http://www.mirrorservice.org

*lightning protection* - a w_tom conductor

On 17/04/2011 23:52, Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Sun, 17 Apr 2011 21:53:21 +0100, Steve Walker wrote:

With hindsight, further information from the OP indicates that the earth
had been cut. Many householders would have assumed that everything was
okay as everything was working and would have been left with one or more
unearthed sockets.

I agree, many people would assume that as the "trained engineer"
didn't say anything and everything works it's OK. All cable damage
needs to be inspected. Cable damage that causes an RCD to trip really
does need inspection before power is restored and I wouldn't be happy
leaving it with power applied.

The cable was power to a socket, presumably on a ring, with only a
single break in the earth. All sockets would still be earthed due to
the ring nature of the circuit. But would the earth loop impedance
now be high enough to stop some protection (plug top fuse?) operating
within the prescribed limits?

Could also have been a radial or spur.

SteveW

On 17 Apr 2011 23:03:06 GMT, Bob Eager wrote:

How about reporting it to the HSE too?

He he, though as nothing happened as a consequence they might not be
all that interested. But a nod in thier direction might be worth
while if BT are sending out engineers without suffcient
understanding/training.

--
Cheers
Dave.

On Mon, 18 Apr 2011 09:18:19 +0100, Dave Liquorice wrote:

On 17 Apr 2011 23:03:06 GMT, Bob Eager wrote:

How about reporting it to the HSE too?

He he, though as nothing happened as a consequence they might not be all
that interested. But a nod in thier direction might be worth while if BT
are sending out engineers without suffcient understanding/training.

I think they might well be interested. And it'd put the fear of God into
BT.



--
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
http://www.mirrorservice.org

*lightning protection* - a w_tom conductor