I took up the carpet and underlay expecting a nice cement screed. I found
chipboard over concrete.

I've had a poke around on Google and the results are mixed. Some say it'll
end in disaster, rip up the chipboard and replace it with 18mm ply. Some
say it can be done.

I don't want the expense of replacing the chipboard or the height change of
plating it with ply.

Since I've already bought the tiles and tiling is my first choice, I am
interested to hear from anyone who has experience of such a project.

mark

mark ) wibbled on Tuesday 01 February 2011
13:58:

I took up the carpet and underlay expecting a nice cement screed. I
found chipboard over concrete.

I've had a poke around on Google and the results are mixed. Some say
it'll
end in disaster, rip up the chipboard and replace it with 18mm ply. Some
say it can be done.

I don't want the expense of replacing the chipboard or the height change
of plating it with ply.

Since I've already bought the tiles and tiling is my first choice, I am
interested to hear from anyone who has experience of such a project.

mark

Can you not pull up the chip and tile onto the concrete?

How is the chip suported? Battens or just laying direct? Is the concrete DPM
good or is the chip there with a battened air gap and/or plastic surface DPM
because the subfloor is damp?

If the chip is fully supported, I might just be persuaded to give it a go -
*with* a Class S2 (them be important magic words) flexible adhesive (BAL,
Mapei etc - sometimes a single mix powder, sometimes a liquid additive that
is matched o one of their normally non flexible powders) - Tile Giant is
quite a good place to obtain "proper" tile adhesives. Flexible grout too...

Chip's lack of resistance to water would make me a little nervous through -
if you lost water down there, even just from vigourous floor mopping and a
bad wall-floor silicone joint on a regular basis - or more disasterously,
from a major flood, it would almost certainly end in tears. At least WBP ply
will not spontaneously go pear shaped under such conditions as long as there
is a way it can dry out.

Also - is it Green chip - some (all?) of that, whilst water resistant, is
waxed which might bugger up your chances of getting tiles to bond.

Best tell us a bit more about this chip and how it's laid...

--
Tim Watts

On 01/02/2011 13:58, mark wrote:
I took up the carpet and underlay expecting a nice cement screed. I found
chipboard over concrete.

I've had a poke around on Google and the results are mixed. Some say it'll
end in disaster, rip up the chipboard and replace it with 18mm ply. Some
say it can be done.

I don't want the expense of replacing the chipboard or the height change of
plating it with ply.

Since I've already bought the tiles and tiling is my first choice, I am
interested to hear from anyone who has experience of such a project.

mark






Will this be a bathroom or kitchen? If the chip is waterproof (usually
has a green caste IIRC), you should be ok. Ply is the norm with a
suspended floor but, over concrete, I wouldn't bother.

"Tim Watts" wrote in message
...
mark ) wibbled on Tuesday 01 February 2011
13:58:

I took up the carpet and underlay expecting a nice cement screed. I
found chipboard over concrete.

I've had a poke around on Google and the results are mixed. Some say
it'll
end in disaster, rip up the chipboard and replace it with 18mm ply. Some
say it can be done.

I don't want the expense of replacing the chipboard or the height change
of plating it with ply.

Since I've already bought the tiles and tiling is my first choice, I am
interested to hear from anyone who has experience of such a project.

mark

Can you not pull up the chip and tile onto the concrete?

How is the chip suported? Battens or just laying direct? Is the concrete
DPM
good or is the chip there with a battened air gap and/or plastic surface
DPM
because the subfloor is damp?

If the chip is fully supported, I might just be persuaded to give it a
go -
*with* a Class S2 (them be important magic words) flexible adhesive (BAL,
Mapei etc - sometimes a single mix powder, sometimes a liquid additive
that
is matched o one of their normally non flexible powders) - Tile Giant is
quite a good place to obtain "proper" tile adhesives. Flexible grout
too...

Chip's lack of resistance to water would make me a little nervous
through -
if you lost water down there, even just from vigourous floor mopping and a
bad wall-floor silicone joint on a regular basis - or more disasterously,
from a major flood, it would almost certainly end in tears. At least WBP
ply
will not spontaneously go pear shaped under such conditions as long as
there
is a way it can dry out.

Also - is it Green chip - some (all?) of that, whilst water resistant, is
waxed which might bugger up your chances of getting tiles to bond.

Best tell us a bit more about this chip and how it's laid...



It was done about 4 years ago as part of a barn conversion under building
control. I assume that there is a dpm as there are no signs of damp. This
was before my time. Not sure if it's on battens, will have a tap dance to
determine when I'm on site next, prolly later today.
Everything seems to have been done neatly and properly so I am loath to rip
up the chipboard as it would require redoing the skirting, some of which is
on a studwork wall and might bring the plasterboard with it. A can of worms
I'd sooner leave unopened. Plan B is some sort of vinyl flooring.

The chipboard is the usual 2400 by 600 t&g. It is not green and doesn't
appear waxy.

I take your point about water but would have thought that there is some sort
of swish on sealer out there somewhere to cope with this issue.

mark

"stuart noble" wrote in message
...
On 01/02/2011 13:58, mark wrote:
I took up the carpet and underlay expecting a nice cement screed. I
found
chipboard over concrete.

I've had a poke around on Google and the results are mixed. Some say
it'll
end in disaster, rip up the chipboard and replace it with 18mm ply. Some
say it can be done.

I don't want the expense of replacing the chipboard or the height change
of
plating it with ply.

Since I've already bought the tiles and tiling is my first choice, I am
interested to hear from anyone who has experience of such a project.

mark






Will this be a bathroom or kitchen? If the chip is waterproof (usually has
a green caste IIRC), you should be ok. Ply is the norm with a suspended
floor but, over concrete, I wouldn't bother.

It will be a kitchen.

mark

"mark" wrote in message
...

"stuart noble" wrote in message
...
On 01/02/2011 13:58, mark wrote:
I took up the carpet and underlay expecting a nice cement screed. I
found
chipboard over concrete.

I've had a poke around on Google and the results are mixed. Some say
it'll
end in disaster, rip up the chipboard and replace it with 18mm ply.
Some
say it can be done.

I don't want the expense of replacing the chipboard or the height
change of
plating it with ply.

Since I've already bought the tiles and tiling is my first choice, I am
interested to hear from anyone who has experience of such a project.

mark






Will this be a bathroom or kitchen? If the chip is waterproof (usually
has a green caste IIRC), you should be ok. Ply is the norm with a
suspended floor but, over concrete, I wouldn't bother.

It will be a kitchen.

mark

I would give a good coating of unibond PVA first, then a flexible adhesive
and grout if you
can get it, then seal the corners with a matching silican sealant

A Plumber ) wibbled on Tuesday 01 February 2011 16:12:


I would give a good coating of unibond PVA first, then a flexible adhesive
and grout if you
can get it,

I would upgrade that to "must get" - with respect, I don't think it's really
optional on a wooden base.

As I say, Tile Giant, if they don't have it in stock can order in most
things Mapei. Screwfix keep a few and http://lilleytileandstone.co.uk/ [1]
stock pretty much everything (though IIRC there may be a minimum order).

I used Mapei Keraquick + Isolastic for floor tiles over marmox - but it is a
very fast seting adhesive so you need to work quick.

If you wanted more time, I personally would check out Ultraflex S2 which
I've not used personally but the blurb seems to suggest it fits the bill.

Another option is Ultramastic III which, although a tub adhesive, is rated
for the job. I've used that for wall tiling onto plywood panels and although
my preference is for heavy duty powder adhesives for floors, this looks OK.

I'd reference the Mapei website, but some ****wit has given it a makeover to
****sville so there is now no useful information on it whatsoever (yes I did
email them, and it wasn't polite).

BAL is also worth looking at and it's possible their website might still be
useful - *sigh* - in fact it is: http://www.bal-adhesives.co.uk/

then seal the corners with a matching silican sealant

Totally agree - Mapei (sigh again) do have a very wide range of coloured
silicones.

[1] At least Lilley have un****ed their website after gawdknows how many
months.

**** what is it with this coporate obsession in replacing a perfectly well
informed website with one that is full of little but utter marketing
********...

Cheers

Tim

--
Tim Watts

On Feb 1, 1:58*pm, "mark" wrote:
I took up the carpet and underlay expecting a nice cement screed. * I found
chipboard over concrete.

I've had a poke around on Google and the results are mixed. *Some say it'll
end in disaster, rip up the chipboard and replace it with 18mm ply. *Some
say it can be done.

I don't want the expense of replacing *the chipboard or the height change of
plating it with ply.

Since I've already bought the tiles and tiling is my first choice, I am
interested to hear from anyone who has experience of such a project.

mark

I've got experience of tiles on chip, and I assure you I wont be
recreating it, its a fool idea. Yes, you can, if youre doing it for
someone else, and dont care how long it lasts. Tile onto concrete and
it can last a lifetime. Can you rip out the chip and screed upto the
required height? Might be able to leave the skirting in situ if you
saw round close to it first for the corner sheets.


NT

mark ) wibbled on Tuesday 01 February 2011
15:08:


It was done about 4 years ago as part of a barn conversion under building
control. I assume that there is a dpm as there are no signs of damp. This
was before my time. Not sure if it's on battens, will have a tap dance to
determine when I'm on site next, prolly later today.

Barn conversion... OK - they either had crap or concrete there originally.

If it's crap and they dug out and laid a new slab - I cannot see why they
would not have insulated that and screeded it and dispensed with the chip.

If there was concrete (and I have little experience - I'm hypothesising),
perhaps they got away with plastic on top for the DPM and chip.

Or possibly insulation - I have seen this done, once. 25mm jablite direct to
concrete (and this was a barn conversion) the chip dirct on top.

1st option - yes you could easily have the chip out, if necessary use some
flooring compound (eg Stopgap 300) to raise the level (that will ass 3-20
odd mm with little fuss compared to trying to SBR screed such a thing layer)
and tile. As the tile + adhesive has thickness, you may not even notice much
level change compared to 18mm ply, unless battens were involved.

2nd option - bit stuffed unless you use an epoxy DPM (I did) then compound
on top. Still very DIYable with one extra pair of hands.

Everything seems to have been done neatly and properly so I am loath to
rip
up the chipboard as it would require redoing the skirting, some of which
is

It wouldn't in all likelyhood. It might involve buying or borrowing a
circular saw and a Fein like tool (eg Fein Multimaste or Bosch version).

The plunge cut ability withh let you get under the skirting to relase the
bits at the edge or cut flush to the skirting (be slow but doable).

on a studwork wall and might bring the plasterboard with it. A can of
worms I'd sooner leave unopened. Plan B is some sort of vinyl flooring.

The chipboard is the usual 2400 by 600 t&g. It is not green and doesn't
appear waxy.

I take your point about water but would have thought that there is some
sort of swish on sealer out there somewhere to cope with this issue.

mark

I would make a simple choice:

Vinyl if it's too much work - and there is nothing wrong with a good vinyl -
I've had vinyl in kitchens and going for the good makes means the pattern
doesn't not fall off in 5 minutes and it can give a pretty convincing tiled
look. If you got a flood and the cjip goes pop, you at least won't be
killing yourself over the expense wasted - and vinyl can be ripped up to
allow the floor to dry out.

Tiles: investigate and decide and depending, at least switch ply in.

It's a grey area (given the unknowns) but I would be ****ed off it if were
me and I spent ages tiling chip just to have it go pop later.

Cheers

Tim

--
Tim Watts

mark wrote:

I am interested to hear from anyone who has experience of such a project.

We have a floating floor in the kitchen. The sub-floor is concrete with
100mm of polystyrene over that. The floor is plywood over the
polystyrene. To stop the plywood from bouncing it had to be screwed down
at 100mm centres. That was fun. Finding a long enough SDS drill to go
through ply, polystyrene and concrete was among the many fun experiences
that I had.

The screws used were Multi-Monti 200mm long to ensure a good grip in the
concrete. This has worked well, the floor doesn't move at all. The tiles
were applied to the ply using a flexible adhesive and grout. No cracked
tiles or cracked grout and the work was done almost a decade ago.

I've not tried tiling on chipboard and I wouldn't like to.

Tabby wrote:
On Feb 1, 1:58 pm, "mark" wrote:
I took up the carpet and underlay expecting a nice cement screed. I found
chipboard over concrete.

I've had a poke around on Google and the results are mixed. Some say it'll
end in disaster, rip up the chipboard and replace it with 18mm ply. Some
say it can be done.

I don't want the expense of replacing the chipboard or the height change of
plating it with ply.

Since I've already bought the tiles and tiling is my first choice, I am
interested to hear from anyone who has experience of such a project.

mark

I've got experience of tiles on chip, and I assure you I wont be
recreating it, its a fool idea. Yes, you can, if youre doing it for
someone else, and dont care how long it lasts. Tile onto concrete and
it can last a lifetime. Can you rip out the chip and screed upto the
required height? Might be able to leave the skirting in situ if you
saw round close to it first for the corner sheets.
#

Its not the chip per se. Its the overall stiffness that counts. I've got
perfectly sound tiles on chip BUT you MUST take as much of the flex out
as you can, and use a flexible adhesive at least 5mm thick.


NT

On Feb 2, 7:01*am, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:
Tabby wrote:
On Feb 1, 1:58 pm, "mark" wrote:
I took up the carpet and underlay expecting a nice cement screed. * I found
chipboard over concrete.

I've had a poke around on Google and the results are mixed. *Some say it'll
end in disaster, rip up the chipboard and replace it with 18mm ply. *Some
say it can be done.

I don't want the expense of replacing *the chipboard or the height change of
plating it with ply.

Since I've already bought the tiles and tiling is my first choice, I am
interested to hear from anyone who has experience of such a project.

mark

I've got experience of tiles on chip, and I assure you I wont be
recreating it, its a fool idea. Yes, you can, if youre doing it for
someone else, and dont care how long it lasts. Tile onto concrete and
it can last a lifetime. Can you rip out the chip and screed upto the
required height? Might be able to leave the skirting in situ if you
saw round close to it first for the corner sheets.
#

Its not the chip per se. Its the overall stiffness that counts. I've got
perfectly sound tiles on chip BUT you MUST take as much of the flex out
as you can, and use a flexible adhesive at least 5mm thick.


Its both. Chip inevitably means flexible, you can support it as much
as possible but you're still liable to get microcracking. Now add the
occasional water spill, the water soaks into the crack and the
chipboard blows. Floor ruined, and its a pita to take the surface of
the chip back down so you can retile that patch. And of course it'll
happen again.

You can, but dont.


NT

"mark" wrote in
o.uk:


Since I've already bought the tiles and tiling is my first choice, I am
interested to hear from anyone who has experience of such a project.

Been there, bought the T-Shirt and ended up with the worst finish of any
job I've ever done and I'm not a complete klutz ... I would never tile over
chipboard again - ever.

Doing the job took less than a day ... but I'm still working on fixing it.

--

All the best,

Chris

On Feb 1, 3:15*pm, "mark" wrote:
"stuart noble" wrote in message

...



On 01/02/2011 13:58, mark wrote:
I took up the carpet and underlay expecting a nice cement screed. * I
found
chipboard over concrete.

I've had a poke around on Google and the results are mixed. *Some say
it'll
end in disaster, rip up the chipboard and replace it with 18mm ply. *Some
say it can be done.

I don't want the expense of replacing *the chipboard or the height change
of
plating it with ply.

Since I've already bought the tiles and tiling is my first choice, I am
interested to hear from anyone who has experience of such a project.

mark

Will this be a bathroom or kitchen? If the chip is waterproof (usually has
a green caste IIRC), you should be ok. Ply is the norm with a suspended
floor but, over concrete, I wouldn't bother.

It will be a kitchen.

mark

Just had my kitchen re done and lifted the tiles to replace. The tiles
had been fitted to plywood sheeting that had been nailed to the floor
boards. Made lifting the tiles a much easier job. I would recommend
putting down plywood sheeting over the chip and tile on that. A
simpler job in the future when or if you need to change the tiles.

On 02/02/2011 11:09, curious wrote:
On Feb 1, 3:15 pm, wrote:
"stuart wrote in message

...



On 01/02/2011 13:58, mark wrote:
I took up the carpet and underlay expecting a nice cement screed. I
found
chipboard over concrete.

I've had a poke around on Google and the results are mixed. Some say
it'll
end in disaster, rip up the chipboard and replace it with 18mm ply. Some
say it can be done.

I don't want the expense of replacing the chipboard or the height change
of
plating it with ply.

Since I've already bought the tiles and tiling is my first choice, I am
interested to hear from anyone who has experience of such a project.

mark

Will this be a bathroom or kitchen? If the chip is waterproof (usually has
a green caste IIRC), you should be ok. Ply is the norm with a suspended
floor but, over concrete, I wouldn't bother.

It will be a kitchen.

mark

Just had my kitchen re done and lifted the tiles to replace. The tiles
had been fitted to plywood sheeting that had been nailed to the floor
boards. Made lifting the tiles a much easier job. I would recommend
putting down plywood sheeting over the chip and tile on that. A
simpler job in the future when or if you need to change the tiles.

but that leaves you with a step at the door(s) and, if ply gets soaked,
it too would probably have to come up. I'd gamble on not having a flood.
I was in a posh new build block recently where all the kitchens were
tiled on chip