If I buy a new car or a piece of high-tech wizardry I'll receive a
user guide. But if I buy a much more expensive item like a house I get
sweet FA. If anyone asked me where the pipes and cables are routed in
my house I wouldn't have a clue. It would be a case of lifting
floorboards to locate the buggers.

So why don't we get a detailed specification of the entire property?

I didn't know until three years after moving in that my loft has a
hidden aerial booster tucked away. No one told me, least of all the
builder. It was just screwed to a joist, waiting to be connected.

When I needed a replacement ball valve for the toilet cistern, I had
to dismantle the cistern to match the part. No user guide to say e.g.
"The toilet cistern in this property is made by Armitage Shanks with
the model number XYZ. A replacement ball valve has part number 123."

So why do we "take delivery" of our most expensive purchase and then
it's a magical mystery tour where the onus is on us to find out what
we need to know?

MM

MM wrote:
If I buy a new car or a piece of high-tech wizardry I'll receive a
user guide. But if I buy a much more expensive item like a house I get
sweet FA. If anyone asked me where the pipes and cables are routed in
my house I wouldn't have a clue. It would be a case of lifting
floorboards to locate the buggers.

So why don't we get a detailed specification of the entire property?

I didn't know until three years after moving in that my loft has a
hidden aerial booster tucked away. No one told me, least of all the
builder. It was just screwed to a joist, waiting to be connected.

When I needed a replacement ball valve for the toilet cistern, I had
to dismantle the cistern to match the part. No user guide to say e.g.
"The toilet cistern in this property is made by Armitage Shanks with
the model number XYZ. A replacement ball valve has part number 123."

So why do we "take delivery" of our most expensive purchase and then
it's a magical mystery tour where the onus is on us to find out what
we need to know?

MM

Quite simple really, very often the builders don't follow the architect's
plans and any alterations/additions/omissions are not logged or plans
amended to take them onto consideration.

In message , MM
writes
If I buy a new car or a piece of high-tech wizardry I'll receive a
user guide. But if I buy a much more expensive item like a house I get
sweet FA. If anyone asked me where the pipes and cables are routed in
my house I wouldn't have a clue. It would be a case of lifting
floorboards to locate the buggers.

So why don't we get a detailed specification of the entire property?

I didn't know until three years after moving in that my loft has a
hidden aerial booster tucked away. No one told me, least of all the
builder. It was just screwed to a joist, waiting to be connected.

When I needed a replacement ball valve for the toilet cistern, I had
to dismantle the cistern to match the part. No user guide to say e.g.
"The toilet cistern in this property is made by Armitage Shanks with
the model number XYZ. A replacement ball valve has part number 123."

So why do we "take delivery" of our most expensive purchase and then
it's a magical mystery tour where the onus is on us to find out what
we need to know?

Good point. One for the Govt. web site?

In our case: a rented out flat does.

Copies of all the operating manuals for washing m/c, boiler, etc.
together with notes on operating the heat recovery extract system. It
sometimes avoids tradesman call outs by the agent which are billed to
us.

Not all tenants RTFM though!

Last *failure* I attended was *no heat* to bathroom and toilet
radiators. Not surprising when all the TRVs were wound fully open!

regards

--
Tim Lamb

Tim Lamb wrote:
Last *failure* I attended was *no heat* to bathroom and toilet
radiators. Not surprising when all the TRVs were wound fully open!

My tenants refused to believe such frippery as timers and roomstats
and controlled everything by turning the boiler on and off at the
supply.

JGH

In article ,
says...
Last *failure* I attended was *no heat* to bathroom and toilet
radiators. Not surprising when all the TRVs were wound fully open!

Shouldn't matter, if the system has been correctly balanced in the first
place.

More common is fiddling with the lockshield valves and /then/
complaining that some of the radiators are cold.

--
Skipweasel - never knowingly understood.

On Tue, 28 Dec 2010 16:56:03 +0000, MM wrote:

If I buy a new car or a piece of high-tech wizardry I'll receive a user
guide. But if I buy a much more expensive item like a house I get sweet
FA. If anyone asked me where the pipes and cables are routed in my house
I wouldn't have a clue. It would be a case of lifting floorboards to
locate the buggers.

So why don't we get a detailed specification of the entire property?

Dunno about new properties, but when we moved out of our last house, I
left something much like this.

Loose leaf binder with documentation for all the fixtures, details of
stoptaps, all the other non-obvious things.



--
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
http://www.mirrorservice.org

*lightning protection* - a w_tom conductor

In article , says...
Dunno about new properties, but when we moved out of our last house, I
left something much like this.

Loose leaf binder with documentation for all the fixtures, details of
stoptaps, all the other non-obvious things.

Here, too. Found it the other day - it didn't contain anything I really
needed, but I can imagine for some it'd be useful.

--
Skipweasel - never knowingly understood.

"Tim Lamb" wrote in message
...

Last *failure* I attended was *no heat* to bathroom and toilet radiators.
Not surprising when all the TRVs were wound fully open!

That's a fault, the system needs balancing.

"Skipweasel" wrote in message
om...
In article , says...
Dunno about new properties, but when we moved out of our last house, I
left something much like this.

Loose leaf binder with documentation for all the fixtures, details of
stoptaps, all the other non-obvious things.

Here, too. Found it the other day - it didn't contain anything I really
needed, but I can imagine for some it'd be useful.

--
Skipweasel - never knowingly understood.


With many manuals now being downloadable, I keep PDF files in a folder.
Could be passed on.

"Owain" wrote in message
...
On Dec 28, 4:56 pm, MM wrote:
If I buy a new car or a piece of high-tech wizardry I'll receive a
user guide. But if I buy a much more expensive item like a house I get
sweet FA. ...
So why don't we get a detailed specification of the entire property?

Because car manufacturers are liable for what they make under Sale of
Goods legislation, but housebuilders can throw up any old tat with
almost complete immunity from redress.

O well I thought for a laugh I would pass this on to my son as he has just
recently purchased a new property...
Egg on face! :-( they supplied manuals for just about everything including
a wiring and plumbing diagram!

On Dec 28, 4:56*pm, MM wrote:
If I buy a new car or a piece of high-tech wizardry I'll receive a
user guide. But if I buy a much more expensive item like a house I get
sweet FA. If anyone asked me where the pipes and cables are routed in
my house I wouldn't have a clue. It would be a case of lifting
floorboards to locate the buggers.

So why don't we get a detailed specification of the entire property?

I didn't know until three years after moving in that my loft has a
hidden aerial booster tucked away. No one told me, least of all the
builder. It was just screwed to a joist, waiting to be connected.

When I needed a replacement ball valve for the toilet cistern, I had
to dismantle the cistern to match the part. No user guide to say e.g.
"The toilet cistern in this property is made by Armitage Shanks with
the model number XYZ. A replacement ball valve has part number 123."

So why do we "take delivery" of our most expensive purchase and then
it's a magical mystery tour where the onus is on us to find out what
we need to know?

MM

its extra work, its liable to be wrong, that creates liability, and
too often it would men admitting things they'd rather not.


NT

"Owain" wrote in message
...
On Dec 28, 9:21 pm, "SS" wrote:
O well I thought for a laugh I would pass this on to my son as he has just
recently purchased a new property...
Egg on face! :-( they supplied manuals for just about everything including
a wiring and plumbing diagram!

As installed, or as the architect hoped for?

Owain

Well thats another matter! I was trying to be a smart A..
Didnt expect him to come back saying he had them. :-(
I suspect as per architect as it was part of this governemnt thing to help
new buyers 75/25 equity.
And they had to be built to some government standard and checked. They have
extra wide doors electrics installed should they require a stair lift
entry from the street is level in case of wheelchairs and a host of other
things I would not normally associate with a new build.
Mind you I last bought a house 20 years ago.
I doubt they would be allowed to deviate from the original plans.

But then again.......

On 28 Dec 2010 19:58:52 GMT, Bob Eager wrote:

On Tue, 28 Dec 2010 16:56:03 +0000, MM wrote:

If I buy a new car or a piece of high-tech wizardry I'll receive a user
guide. But if I buy a much more expensive item like a house I get sweet
FA. If anyone asked me where the pipes and cables are routed in my house
I wouldn't have a clue. It would be a case of lifting floorboards to
locate the buggers.

So why don't we get a detailed specification of the entire property?

Dunno about new properties, but when we moved out of our last house, I
left something much like this.

Loose leaf binder with documentation for all the fixtures, details of
stoptaps, all the other non-obvious things.

This is what I shall do when it's time to move. But I was pretty
cheesed off when I moved in, having to ring the builder especially to
ask one or two things and him behaving with some irritation as if I
was disturbing him. Plus, he told me when I was looking around the
property that there was "plenty of oil in the tank" only to find when
I moved in six weeks later that there was about a cupful left, I
couldn't get any oil delivered till after Christmas and had to use a
single fan heater for warmth.

MM

On Tue, 28 Dec 2010 13:01:58 -0800 (PST), Owain
wrote:

On Dec 28, 4:56*pm, MM wrote:
If I buy a new car or a piece of high-tech wizardry I'll receive a
user guide. But if I buy a much more expensive item like a house I get
sweet FA. ...
So why don't we get a detailed specification of the entire property?

Because car manufacturers are liable for what they make under Sale of
Goods legislation, but housebuilders can throw up any old tat with
almost complete immunity from redress.

Spot on, that comment.

MM

On Tue, 28 Dec 2010 21:21:14 -0000, "SS"
wrote:


"Owain" wrote in message
...
On Dec 28, 4:56 pm, MM wrote:
If I buy a new car or a piece of high-tech wizardry I'll receive a
user guide. But if I buy a much more expensive item like a house I get
sweet FA. ...
So why don't we get a detailed specification of the entire property?

Because car manufacturers are liable for what they make under Sale of
Goods legislation, but housebuilders can throw up any old tat with
almost complete immunity from redress.

O well I thought for a laugh I would pass this on to my son as he has just
recently purchased a new property...
Egg on face! :-( they supplied manuals for just about everything including
a wiring and plumbing diagram!

Good to know, then, that SOME builders are doing it. Now the practice
needs to spread to ALL housebuilders, no matter how small.

MM

On Tue, 28 Dec 2010 15:01:49 -0800 (PST), Tabby
wrote:

On Dec 28, 4:56*pm, MM wrote:
If I buy a new car or a piece of high-tech wizardry I'll receive a
user guide. But if I buy a much more expensive item like a house I get
sweet FA. If anyone asked me where the pipes and cables are routed in
my house I wouldn't have a clue. It would be a case of lifting
floorboards to locate the buggers.

So why don't we get a detailed specification of the entire property?

I didn't know until three years after moving in that my loft has a
hidden aerial booster tucked away. No one told me, least of all the
builder. It was just screwed to a joist, waiting to be connected.

When I needed a replacement ball valve for the toilet cistern, I had
to dismantle the cistern to match the part. No user guide to say e.g.
"The toilet cistern in this property is made by Armitage Shanks with
the model number XYZ. A replacement ball valve has part number 123."

So why do we "take delivery" of our most expensive purchase and then
it's a magical mystery tour where the onus is on us to find out what
we need to know?

MM

its extra work, its liable to be wrong, that creates liability, and
too often it would men admitting things they'd rather not.

It's extra work, I grant you, but after spending several months
building the house what are a few hours to collate the various notes
made or should have been? As for creating liability, what for?
"Drawing A shows the pipe runs. Exact measurements not guaranteed."
That should be enough to indicated where the pipes are without
nitpickers complaining that a pipe is 1 mm further east than on the
drawing.

MM

In message , Skipweasel
writes
In article ,
says...
Last *failure* I attended was *no heat* to bathroom and toilet
radiators. Not surprising when all the TRVs were wound fully open!

Shouldn't matter, if the system has been correctly balanced in the first
place.

OK. But a working fix. I was more concerned about pump failure or some
such.

More common is fiddling with the lockshield valves and /then/
complaining that some of the radiators are cold.

Yes. Who knows what they get up to. These lockshields are fitted with
protective covers rather than active knobs but that doesn't overcome
those in possession of pliers.

regards


--
Tim Lamb

On 28/12/2010 21:21, SS wrote:

O well I thought for a laugh I would pass this on to my son as he has just
recently purchased a new property...
Egg on face! :-( they supplied manuals for just about everything including
a wiring and plumbing diagram!

They deserve a good pat on the back. Or some publicity... who was it?

Andy

In article ,
MM wrote:
If I buy a new car or a piece of high-tech wizardry I'll receive a
user guide. But if I buy a much more expensive item like a house I get
sweet FA. If anyone asked me where the pipes and cables are routed in
my house I wouldn't have a clue. It would be a case of lifting
floorboards to locate the buggers.

I don't know of any car or other piece of high-wizard technology that
includes a repair manual with it these days. Indeed, most makers try to
make sure you can't buy such a thing. Especially car ones.

If you want an equivalent of a car driver's handbook - fine. But most
already know how to switch on a light or flush the loo in the house.

--
*It's not hard to meet expenses... they're everywhere.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Wed, 29 Dec 2010 13:35:08 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

In article ,
MM wrote:
If I buy a new car or a piece of high-tech wizardry I'll receive a
user guide. But if I buy a much more expensive item like a house I get
sweet FA. If anyone asked me where the pipes and cables are routed in
my house I wouldn't have a clue. It would be a case of lifting
floorboards to locate the buggers.

I don't know of any car or other piece of high-wizard technology that
includes a repair manual with it these days. Indeed, most makers try to
make sure you can't buy such a thing. Especially car ones.

If you want an equivalent of a car driver's handbook - fine. But most
already know how to switch on a light or flush the loo in the house.

I'm not asking for a *repair* manual. Simply a guide to where pipes
and cables are routed and similar technical information about one's
new house. Why are you obviously so against it? Builder, are you?

MM

On Dec 29, 3:22*pm, MM wrote:
On Wed, 29 Dec 2010 13:35:08 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)"

wrote:
In article ,
* MM wrote:
If I buy a new car or a piece of high-tech wizardry I'll receive a
user guide. But if I buy a much more expensive item like a house I get
sweet FA. If anyone asked me where the pipes and cables are routed in
my house I wouldn't have a clue. It would be a case of lifting
floorboards to locate the buggers.

I don't know of any car or other piece of high-wizard technology that
includes a repair manual with it these days. Indeed, most makers try to
make sure you can't buy such a thing. Especially car ones.

If you want an equivalent of a car driver's handbook - fine. But most
already know how to switch on a light or flush the loo in the house.

I'm not asking for a *repair* manual. Simply a guide to where pipes
and cables are routed and similar technical information about one's
new house. Why are you obviously so against it? Builder, are you?

MM

A copy of the drawings as approved under Building Regulations would be
useful with any new property, especially if any re-modelling works
arise in the future. The local authority will probably not be willing
to supply these later, due to copyright restrictions.

In article ,
MM wrote:
If you want an equivalent of a car driver's handbook - fine. But most
already know how to switch on a light or flush the loo in the house.

I'm not asking for a *repair* manual. Simply a guide to where pipes
and cables are routed and similar technical information about one's
new house. Why are you obviously so against it? Builder, are you?

I'm not against it at all. Indeed the next purchaser of this house will
get very full documentation of such things.

I'm merely saying you don't get such information with anything else you
buy these days. You *are* essentially asking for repair details.
A car driver's handbook doesn't give you the part numbers for say brake
pads. Or tell you where something like the aerial amp is located. Nor does
it tell you who actually made these parts. You're expected to go to your
dealer for them. With a house, getting someone who knows in would be the
same sort of thing.

--
*My designated driver drove me to drink

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

If you want an equivalent of a car driver's handbook - fine. But most
already know how to switch on a light or flush the loo in the house.

I think houses are built on the assumption that the occupant has spent
all their previous life living in one already and so knows how houses
work.

JGH

On Dec 29, 9:20*am, MM wrote:
On Tue, 28 Dec 2010 15:01:49 -0800 (PST), Tabby
wrote:



On Dec 28, 4:56*pm, MM wrote:
If I buy a new car or a piece of high-tech wizardry I'll receive a
user guide. But if I buy a much more expensive item like a house I get
sweet FA. If anyone asked me where the pipes and cables are routed in
my house I wouldn't have a clue. It would be a case of lifting
floorboards to locate the buggers.

So why don't we get a detailed specification of the entire property?

I didn't know until three years after moving in that my loft has a
hidden aerial booster tucked away. No one told me, least of all the
builder. It was just screwed to a joist, waiting to be connected.

When I needed a replacement ball valve for the toilet cistern, I had
to dismantle the cistern to match the part. No user guide to say e.g.
"The toilet cistern in this property is made by Armitage Shanks with
the model number XYZ. A replacement ball valve has part number 123."

So why do we "take delivery" of our most expensive purchase and then
it's a magical mystery tour where the onus is on us to find out what
we need to know?

MM

its extra work, its liable to be wrong, that creates liability, and
too often it would men admitting things they'd rather not.

It's extra work, I grant you, but after spending several months
building the house what are a few hours to collate the various notes
made or should have been?

Real life doesnt match drawing, and the contractors may not have kept
the data

As for creating liability, what for?

'You said the pipe was here but its over there. I drilled over there &
flooded the house, its your fault and I want £5000 and to ruin your
reputation.'

"Drawing A shows the pipe runs. Exact measurements not guaranteed."
That should be enough to indicated where the pipes are without
nitpickers complaining that a pipe is 1 mm further east than on the
drawing.

MM

1mm isnt an issue, 10 feet is.


NT

In message
,
jgharston writes
If you want an equivalent of a car driver's handbook - fine. But most
already know how to switch on a light or flush the loo in the house.

I think houses are built on the assumption that the occupant has spent
all their previous life living in one already and so knows how houses
work.

Yebbut.... Technology is moving along and not everyone has exposure.

Currently I don't have any radio controlled gismos. Taking over a house
with battery powered thermostats could lead to a lot of wasted time.

Simple things like marking the position of soakaways, drain and cable
routes where they are not obvious.

Heat pumps and other exotica will link to current heating systems in
ways not obvious to the average householder. How many pumps, non return
valves and motorised valves are there in Drivel's thermal store system?

regards

--
Tim Lamb

On Wed, 29 Dec 2010 09:47:34 -0800 (PST), jgharston
wrote:

If you want an equivalent of a car driver's handbook - fine. But most
already know how to switch on a light or flush the loo in the house.

I think houses are built on the assumption that the occupant has spent
all their previous life living in one already and so knows how houses
work.

Ah, so you know where all your pipes and cables are routed?

MM

On Tue, 28 Dec 2010 21:21:14 -0000, SS wrote:

O well I thought for a laugh I would pass this on to my son as he has
just recently purchased a new property... Egg on face! :-( they
supplied manuals for just about everything including a wiring and
plumbing diagram!

Diagrams or plans?

If diagrams do they agree with what is installed?

If plans has son checked they agree, within say a foot, with reality?

--
Cheers
Dave.

On Wed, 29 Dec 2010 23:22:40 +0000, Tim Streater
wrote:

In article ,
MM wrote:

If I buy a new car or a piece of high-tech wizardry I'll receive a
user guide. But if I buy a much more expensive item like a house I get
sweet FA. If anyone asked me where the pipes and cables are routed in
my house I wouldn't have a clue. It would be a case of lifting
floorboards to locate the buggers.

So why don't we get a detailed specification of the entire property?

I didn't know until three years after moving in that my loft has a
hidden aerial booster tucked away. No one told me, least of all the
builder. It was just screwed to a joist, waiting to be connected.

When I needed a replacement ball valve for the toilet cistern, I had
to dismantle the cistern to match the part. No user guide to say e.g.
"The toilet cistern in this property is made by Armitage Shanks with
the model number XYZ. A replacement ball valve has part number 123."

So why do we "take delivery" of our most expensive purchase and then
it's a magical mystery tour where the onus is on us to find out what
we need to know?

Ah, give over. Look, your house is second hand.

No, it's not.

MM

Owain wrote:
A lot of houses *don't* work, particularly.

Yeah, sitting here in my coat and gloves wondering what idiot
thought a single large open-plan ground floor was a good idea
in Scotland.

I blame Sarah "let's just take out this wall" Beany.

JGH

On 29/12/2010 23:22, Tim Streater wrote:

Ah, give over. Look, your house is second hand. Why do you expect the
previous owner to construct a 50-page user guide for your benefit? Did
you do one for the last car you sold, like: "There are sweet papers
under the rug" or "the rear near-side window winder was always a bit
dicky"? Eh? Eh? Well - did you or not?


If I want to know where cable runs are in my car I can refer to the
service manual. OK, I'll have a job getting one, but they do exist and
they are a record of what colour wires went where and do what. Those
brake pads someone mentioned - the manufacturer will have in their
computers somewhere who supplied the originals, and from which batch, in
case there's a recall.

Now suppose it turned out that XYZ boiler company had shipped a batch of
faulty units, and they were likely to explode when the external
temperature got to -10. There is no way that there will be a record of
which houses have those units.

Perhaps it's only when they are wired in a certain way. There is no
documentation anywhere that will record how the wiring was done - it's
all done pretty much on an ad-hoc basis by the people who fitted them.

House building in this country is still a craft, rather than an industry.

Andy

"jgharston" wrote in message
...
Owain wrote:
A lot of houses *don't* work, particularly.

Yeah, sitting here in my coat and gloves wondering what idiot
thought a single large open-plan ground floor was a good idea
in Scotland.

I blame Sarah "let's just take out this wall" Beany.

I bought a house like that once. I just put the walls back.

--
Bartc

On Dec 28, 5:25*pm, "Woodworm" wrote:
MM wrote:
If I buy a new car or a piece of high-tech wizardry I'll receive a
user guide. But if I buy a much more expensive item like a house I get
sweet FA. If anyone asked me where the pipes and cables are routed in
my house I wouldn't have a clue. It would be a case of lifting
floorboards to locate the buggers.

So why don't we get a detailed specification of the entire property?

I didn't know until three years after moving in that my loft has a
hidden aerial booster tucked away. No one told me, least of all the
builder. It was just screwed to a joist, waiting to be connected.

When I needed a replacement ball valve for the toilet cistern, I had
to dismantle the cistern to match the part. No user guide to say e.g.
"The toilet cistern in this property is made by Armitage Shanks with
the model number XYZ. A replacement ball valve has part number 123."

So why do we "take delivery" of our most expensive purchase and then
it's a magical mystery tour where the onus is on us to find out what
we need to know?

MM

Quite simple really, very often the builders don't follow the architect's
plans and any alterations/additions/omissions are not logged or plans
amended to take them onto consideration.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

The above is correct. They are called "As installed" plans done when
the job is complete for record/maintenance purposes. However they cost
lots of money and aren't done for that reason.
Many drawings don't show detail, it's left to the individual trades
person to sort out many problems overlooked by architect swho are a
bunch of idle ******s. Failed artists.

On 28/12/2010 19:43, jgharston wrote:
Tim Lamb wrote:
Last *failure* I attended was *no heat* to bathroom and toilet
radiators. Not surprising when all the TRVs were wound fully open!

My tenants refused to believe such frippery as timers and roomstats
and controlled everything by turning the boiler on and off at the
supply.

The new integrated system expensive boilers I've seen installed as
efficient replacements for older almost clockwork controlled systems by
way of a council grant, feature fidgety digital timers and many funny
symbols next to knobs and buttons instead of plain english.

I've got some friends that resort to mastering the on/off switch as well ;-(

--
Adrian C

Owain wrote:
I thought it was The Honourable Kirstie Allsopp who went in for
knocking through; if you have a family kitchen-diner with access to
the garden you've been Beanied.

Oh yes, very definitely Beanied:
http://mdfs.net/User/HWPS/Docs/Plans.../TheElmsGF.gif

JGH

In article ,
Andy Champ wrote:
If I want to know where cable runs are in my car I can refer to the
service manual. OK, I'll have a job getting one, but they do exist and
they are a record of what colour wires went where and do what. Those
brake pads someone mentioned - the manufacturer will have in their
computers somewhere who supplied the originals, and from which batch, in
case there's a recall.


Now suppose it turned out that XYZ boiler company had shipped a batch of
faulty units, and they were likely to explode when the external
temperature got to -10. There is no way that there will be a record of
which houses have those units.

The manufacturer will have details of who bought those boilers and would
hopefully inform them. If it was a serious fault - life threatening - it
would get a general mention in the same way as certain car safety re-calls.

Oh - every boiler I've seen comes with installation and service
instructions as well as registration for perhaps an extended warrenty. If
they weren't supplied with your brand new house, demand them. These can
also often be found online, though.

--
*Why is the third hand on the watch called a second hand?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article 0d7e8ab2-15e2-4153-bb3b-
,
says...
Oh yes, very definitely Beanied:
http://mdfs.net/User/HWPS/Docs/Plans.../TheElmsGF.gif


Ah - the glories of a race-track in your own home, if you have kids of
that age. They chase each other around endlessly.

--
Skipweasel - never knowingly understood.

"Tim Streater" wrote in message
...
In article
,
4square wrote:

On Dec 29, 3:22pm, MM wrote:
On Wed, 29 Dec 2010 13:35:08 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)"

wrote:
In article ,
MM wrote:
If I buy a new car or a piece of high-tech wizardry I'll receive a
user guide. But if I buy a much more expensive item like a house I
get
sweet FA. If anyone asked me where the pipes and cables are routed
in
my house I wouldn't have a clue. It would be a case of lifting
floorboards to locate the buggers.

I don't know of any car or other piece of high-wizard technology that
includes a repair manual with it these days. Indeed, most makers try
to
make sure you can't buy such a thing. Especially car ones.

If you want an equivalent of a car driver's handbook - fine. But most
already know how to switch on a light or flush the loo in the house.

I'm not asking for a *repair* manual. Simply a guide to where pipes
and cables are routed and similar technical information about one's
new house. Why are you obviously so against it? Builder, are you?

A copy of the drawings as approved under Building Regulations would be
useful with any new property, especially if any re-modelling works
arise in the future. The local authority will probably not be willing
to supply these later, due to copyright restrictions.

Ours did, on the house we bought a year ago. Cost 40 or so for copying,
and only applied to the extension work done here, but it did mean that we
got answers to many of the questions that we had.

--
Tim

"That excessive bail ought not to be required, nor excessive fines
imposed,
nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted" -- Bill of Rights 1689



I think that house building is a shoddy - ill-disciplined trade.

More use should be made of factory made modules. We are stuck with the
concept of building a house from hand liftable components.

On TV we have seen cases where brickies have even left out the cavity ties.

Fortunately my house had lines marked on the upstairs floors to show pipe
and cable runs - presumably for the guy who then came to install the
partition walls. Handy though and I have painted the markings to ensure they
last and have colour coded them.

In message
,
jgharston writes
Owain wrote:
A lot of houses *don't* work, particularly.

Yeah, sitting here in my coat and gloves wondering what idiot
thought a single large open-plan ground floor was a good idea
in Scotland.

I blame Sarah "let's just take out this wall" Beany.

Soft northerners, eh ?

--
geoff

In message , Tim
Streater writes
In article ,
MM wrote:

If I buy a new car or a piece of high-tech wizardry I'll receive a
user guide. But if I buy a much more expensive item like a house I get
sweet FA. If anyone asked me where the pipes and cables are routed in
my house I wouldn't have a clue. It would be a case of lifting
floorboards to locate the buggers.
So why don't we get a detailed specification of the entire property?
I didn't know until three years after moving in that my loft has a
hidden aerial booster tucked away. No one told me, least of all the
builder. It was just screwed to a joist, waiting to be connected.
When I needed a replacement ball valve for the toilet cistern, I had
to dismantle the cistern to match the part. No user guide to say e.g.
"The toilet cistern in this property is made by Armitage Shanks with
the model number XYZ. A replacement ball valve has part number 123."
So why do we "take delivery" of our most expensive purchase and then
it's a magical mystery tour where the onus is on us to find out what
we need to know?

Ah, give over. Look, your house is second hand. Why do you expect the
previous owner to construct a 50-page user guide for your benefit? Did
you do one for the last car you sold, like: "There are sweet papers
under the rug" or "the rear near-side window winder was always a bit
dicky"? Eh? Eh? Well - did you or not?


He's an eejit


--
geoff

In message , Andy Champ
writes
On 29/12/2010 23:22, Tim Streater wrote:

Ah, give over. Look, your house is second hand. Why do you expect the
previous owner to construct a 50-page user guide for your benefit? Did
you do one for the last car you sold, like: "There are sweet papers
under the rug" or "the rear near-side window winder was always a bit
dicky"? Eh? Eh? Well - did you or not?


If I want to know where cable runs are in my car I can refer to the
service manual. OK, I'll have a job getting one, but they do exist and
they are a record of what colour wires went where and do what. Those
brake pads someone mentioned - the manufacturer will have in their
computers somewhere who supplied the originals, and from which batch,
in case there's a recall.

Now suppose it turned out that XYZ boiler company had shipped a batch
of faulty units, and they were likely to explode when the external
temperature got to -10. There is no way that there will be a record of
which houses have those units.

Perhaps it's only when they are wired in a certain way.

Calm down - you're talking ********



--
geoff