The Green Deal, a Liberal Democrat manifesto commitment, is the
Government’s new and radical way of making energy efficiency available
to all, whether people own or rent their property.

Liberal Democrat Energy and Climate Change Secretary, Chris Huhne
announced today that by 2015 up to 100,000 Green Deal workers could be
employed in the effort to upgrade and insulate Britain’s homes.

http://www.libdems.org.uk/news_detai...4-ab90caca278e



our outdated housing stock leaks heat and wastes carbon.

Our response is the Green Deal, a radical programme to bring our houses
out of the dark ages.

Over the next two years we expect to insulate 3.5 million homes, with a
renewed focus on those in fuel poverty - and those who need it most.

Then, from 2012 onwards, energy saving packages worth thousands will be
installed in millions of homes, with the capital and interest costs
covered by savings on energy bills.

And we will look at how we can apply the Green Deal model to businesses,
too – enabling them to cut carbon, and cut costs.

On Thu, 25 Nov 2010 13:26:55 +0000, george [dicegeorge] wrote:

Over the next two years we expect to insulate 3.5 million homes, with a
renewed focus on those in fuel poverty - and those who need it most.

I like that, well into fuel poverty here. But 3.5 million homes in
730 days? Nearly 5,000/day... that's not going to be what this place
needs, ie rip out all the uninsulated dry lining, replace with 50 to
100mm celetox or similar, reline and decorate. That's going to be
throw a few rolls of loft insulation about and stick in some draught
proofing.

Then, from 2012 onwards, energy saving packages worth thousands will be
installed in millions of homes, with the capital and interest costs
covered by savings on energy bills.

More free CFL's? Or perhaps LED lamps? The already announced and
progressing swap to "smart metering"?

--
Cheers
Dave.

On Nov 25, 3:56*pm, "Dave Liquorice"
wrote:
that's not going to be what this place needs, ie rip out all the
uninsulated dry lining, replace with 50 to 100mm celetox or similar,

Actually 50mm Celotex does very nicely indeed if you look at the
calcs.
A house insulated with 50mm Celotex on the inside needs only a f@rt
lighting every few hours to keep warm.

I find it really stupid that the houses with any solid walls (not just
entirely solid wall) are not getting internal insulation grants. I
have a suspicion it is so they can be classified as HTH housing and
thus cheap prey someday at the street level for Property Developers. I
guess that "will create new jobs too" as well as socioeconomic
cleansing...

george [dicegeorge] wrote:
The Green Deal, a Liberal Democrat manifesto commitment, is the
Governments new and radical way of making energy efficiency available
to all, whether people own or rent their property.

Liberal Democrat Energy and Climate Change Secretary, Chris Huhne
announced today that by 2015 up to 100,000 Green Deal workers could be
employed in the effort to upgrade and insulate Britains homes.

http://www.libdems.org.uk/news_detai...4-ab90caca278e




our outdated housing stock leaks heat and wastes carbon.

Our response is the Green Deal, a radical programme to bring our houses
out of the dark ages.

Over the next two years we expect to insulate 3.5 million homes, with a
renewed focus on those in fuel poverty - and those who need it most.

Then, from 2012 onwards, energy saving packages worth thousands will be
installed in millions of homes, with the capital and interest costs
covered by savings on energy bills.

And we will look at how we can apply the Green Deal model to businesses,
too €“ enabling them to cut carbon, and cut costs.

Well, at least we know that home insulation, unlike just about every
other pie in the sky scheme Huhne the **** has come up with, actually
works and is cost effective.

Random monkey, I suppose.

On Thu, 25 Nov 2010 08:13:43 -0800 (PST), js.b1 wrote:

Actually 50mm Celotex does very nicely indeed if you look at the
calcs.

I've not done the numbers but I'm not at all surprised. Did the end
wall of the lads bedroom with 25mm bonded to plasterboard as it was
(probably still is behind the lining) a damp solid external wall.
Only two sheets but it made a tremendous difference to the comfort in
the room.

A house insulated with 50mm Celotex on the inside needs only a f@rt
lighting every few hours to keep warm.

I like that idea. 4,000l of oil a year costs a lot. I want to line
every square inch of the external walls, including the bits between
the floors. Install a large heat bank with inputs from woodburner and
solar thermal and the oil boiler and decent sized immersion heaters
as well.

I findrt it really stupid that the houses with any solid walls (not just
entirely solid wall) are not getting internal insulation grants.

I agree and not purely because I'd benefit from such a grant. But it
takes a compartively long time and is very disruptive compared to
squirting something into a cavity... The former is expensive the
latter cheap.

--
Cheers
Dave.

Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Thu, 25 Nov 2010 13:26:55 +0000, george [dicegeorge] wrote:

Over the next two years we expect to insulate 3.5 million homes, with a
renewed focus on those in fuel poverty - and those who need it most.

I like that, well into fuel poverty here. But 3.5 million homes in
730 days? Nearly 5,000/day... that's not going to be what this place
needs, ie rip out all the uninsulated dry lining, replace with 50 to
100mm celetox or similar, reline and decorate. That's going to be
throw a few rolls of loft insulation about and stick in some draught
proofing.


Well let's see. What for example, is it worth to YOU to have that done.

Then, from 2012 onwards, energy saving packages worth thousands will be
installed in millions of homes, with the capital and interest costs
covered by savings on energy bills.

More free CFL's? Or perhaps LED lamps? The already announced and
progressing swap to "smart metering"?


Oh purllease.

more pie in the sky ****tishness from Huhne. Trying desperately to make
windpower work.


What honestly can you do AT THE METER.

smart appliances is far more relevant.

Get the freezer to come on only at night, or when the frequency is above
50hz.Or when its getting dangerously warm..

Same for immersion heaters.

it could be a simple board, that has mains in, mains out, and an
override. Cost would be a couple of quid.

her is bags of room to level off demand so that we use less by day, more
at night.

Wont make the windmills work of course. There is no load I can think of
that I can put on when the wind blows, that I wont want to use just
because its flat calm and icy for a week.

Only way to sort THAT one out would be to spend about £30,000 on each
house, on a heat pump, a bloody great swimming pool full of boiling water..

js.b1 wrote:
On Nov 25, 3:56 pm, "Dave Liquorice"
wrote:
that's not going to be what this place needs, ie rip out all the
uninsulated dry lining, replace with 50 to 100mm celetox or similar,

Actually 50mm Celotex does very nicely indeed if you look at the
calcs.
A house insulated with 50mm Celotex on the inside needs only a f@rt
lighting every few hours to keep warm.


That depends entirely on how big the house is, and the boiler size,.

I am fully specced to regs and I still need 10KW continuous at -5C and a
15mph wind to mantain 17C.

..


I find it really stupid that the houses with any solid walls (not just
entirely solid wall) are not getting internal insulation grants. I
have a suspicion it is so they can be classified as HTH housing and
thus cheap prey someday at the street level for Property Developers. I
guess that "will create new jobs too" as well as socioeconomic
cleansing...

I am not hat paranoid or cynical, but in principle I agree.

Solid walled houses are THE prime candidates for upgrades. The big
problem is the building regs. You have to do it to full spec or not at all.

If they relaxed that to 'at least twice as good as it was for a refurb'
then instead on 100mm insulation, 10-20mm of celotex would work.

On Nov 25, 5:05*pm, "Dave Liquorice"
wrote:
On Thu, 25 Nov 2010 08:13:43 -0800 (PST), js.b1 wrote:
Actually 50mm Celotex does very nicely indeed if you look at the
calcs.

I've not done the numbers but I'm not at all surprised. Did the end
wall of the lads bedroom with 25mm bonded to plasterboard as it was
(probably still is behind the lining) a damp solid external wall.
Only two sheets but it made a tremendous difference to the comfort in
the room.

A house insulated with 50mm Celotex on the inside needs only a f@rt
lighting every few hours to keep warm.

I like that idea. 4,000l of oil a year costs a lot. I want to line
every square inch of the external walls, including the bits between
the floors. Install a large heat bank with inputs from woodburner and
solar thermal and the oil boiler and decent sized immersion heaters
as well.

I findrt it really stupid that the houses with any solid walls (not just
entirely solid wall) are not getting internal insulation grants.

I agree and not purely because I'd benefit from such a grant. But it
takes a compartively long time and is very disruptive compared to
squirting something into a cavity... The former is expensive the
latter cheap.

--
Cheers
Dave.

Solid walled houses are perfect for insulation. On the outside. The 8"
walls become a heat reservoir. Only possible on a detached house
unless you can get your neighbour(s) to do the same. I have 200mm+ (or
equivalent) of celotex everywhere. The main problem is heat bridges
and infiltration (micro-draughts). The TV and freezers keep my place
warm usually up to Christmas. I also have mainly quadruple glazing and
insulated shutters to all doors and windows.
there are v.large South windows and small North windows.
But the heat eventually leaks away. Dull cold weather is the problem
if it lasts more than a week. Then I light up my wood stove.

On Thu, 25 Nov 2010 17:11:13 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

A house insulated with 50mm Celotex on the inside needs only a
f@rt
lighting every few hours to keep warm.

That depends entirely on how big the house is, and the boiler size,.

I am fully specced to regs and I still need 10KW continuous at -5C and a
15mph wind to mantain 17C.

cough That is a fart compared to maintaining a similar temp here in
similar conditions, the 38kW boiler runs pretty much non-stop...

--
Cheers
Dave.

On 25/11/2010 17:05, Dave Liquorice wrote:

I findrt it really stupid that the houses with any solid walls (not just
entirely solid wall) are not getting internal insulation grants.

I agree and not purely because I'd benefit from such a grant. But it
takes a compartively long time and is very disruptive compared to
squirting something into a cavity... The former is expensive the
latter cheap.

Trouble with grants is that even if you can get one the grant comes
complete with a rip-off merchant who gets all the benefit and you end up
with a job you could diy for less without any grant.

Some time ago I came across information on a product called hempcrete -
a mixture of hemp and lime mortar - which apparently has good insulation
properties and is hideously green (allegedly negative CO2).
Unfortunately at the time all the information I could find was on
casting it into blocks for building with and I was looking for some sort
of insulated plaster to go on the inside of my solid stone walls.

Having had my interest rekindled by this thread I did a quick search,
passing on a video apparently spraying the stuff onto the outside of a
building before coming across this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=79gyuGToxKQ

Plastering the inside of a building in Switzerland.

Now that is the sort of diy I could do if only I had a bit more
information on the detail but I am not sure what thickness would be
needed to satisfy current BRs so perhaps I should wait another ten years
for the appropriate section to be consigned to the con-artists bonfire
of regulations. ;-)

On Thu, 25 Nov 2010 17:05:46 +0000, Dave Liquorice wrote:

... Install a large heat bank with inputs from woodburner and
solar thermal and the oil boiler and decent sized immersion heaters
as well.


Why input from the oil boiler? What does that do for you?
Obviously you have to store energy from solar and your wood stove when
it's available, but an oil boiler can provide heat when you need it.



--
John Stumbles -- http://yaph.co.uk

Pessimists are never disappointed

On Nov 25, 5:11*pm, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

I am not hat paranoid or cynical, but in principle I agree.

"hat paranoid" ? Is that when you start wearing the tinfoil one?

On Fri, 26 Nov 2010 02:38:12 -0800 (PST), Andy Dingley
wrote:

On Nov 25, 5:11*pm, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

I am not hat paranoid or cynical, but in principle I agree.

"hat paranoid" ? Is that when you start wearing the tinfoil one?

http://www.eclectech.co.uk/mindcontrol.php

--
Frank Erskine

On Fri, 26 Nov 2010 11:04:11 +0000, Frank Erskine wrote:

http://www.eclectech.co.uk/mindcontrol.php

Heh! I hadn't seen that for a while.
Quite like the compost bin one http://www.eclectech.co.uk/compostbin.php

--
John Stumbles

Things don't like being anthropomorphised.

On Nov 26, 1:00*pm, Owain wrote:
On Nov 25, 4:13*pm, "js.b1" *wrote:

I find it really stupid that the houses with any solid walls (not just
entirely solid wall) are not getting internal insulation grants.

Internal insulation makes rooms smaller and requires internal
redecoration, and causes occupant disruption. This leaves the grant
awarding body or the contractor open to large unpredictable costs for
reinstatement and possible tenant decant.

External insulation would upset the conservationists. about the only
time it is used in large quantities is on pre-fab concrete council
houses. Even then, although it raises the insulation to current
levels, the concrete walls are still within the thermal envelope and
the house 'feels' cold because of the high thermal mass.

Boiler replacement is only available to G rated boilers under a few
schemes - those are the very worst back boilers. Giving interest-free
loans for boiler replacement of C rated or worse, repayable on the
next sale of the property, might help many people - wouldn't cost much
in the longer term, and would help boost employment in the meantime.

Owain
Nah. There are commercial systems for insulating solid walls on the
outside though I did my own.

On Thu, 25 Nov 2010 09:51:07 -0800 (PST), harry wrote:

Solid walled houses are perfect for insulation. On the outside.

Yeah if you just have boring concrete, render or bricks. Not so good
with random stone and wanting to keep the building looking "in
keeping with the area".

The 8" walls become a heat reservoir.

Only 8"? Pah! the thinest here are 12". The nice "thermal store"
right through the middle of the house and full height/length of the
house is 18" thick and yes it does stabilse the house temperature.
But never ever let it get cold...

--
Cheers
Dave.

On 26 Nov 2010 00:06:27 GMT, YAPH wrote:

... Install a large heat bank with inputs from woodburner and
solar thermal and the oil boiler and decent sized immersion
heaters
as well.

Why input from the oil boiler? What does that do for you?

The heat bank would also heat the DHW, so without the wood burner or
solar providing enough energy there would be no DHW... The immersions
are for back up or possibly connection to a wind turbine. Oil is
still cheaper than electricity, just. E7 doesn't work well with
solar, unless you could get an "E7" tarrif that gave you the cheap
rate from say 1800.

--
Cheers
Dave.

In message , Roger Chapman
writes
On 25/11/2010 17:05, Dave Liquorice wrote:

I findrt it really stupid that the houses with any solid walls (not just
entirely solid wall) are not getting internal insulation grants.

I agree and not purely because I'd benefit from such a grant. But it
takes a compartively long time and is very disruptive compared to
squirting something into a cavity... The former is expensive the
latter cheap.

Trouble with grants is that even if you can get one the grant comes
complete with a rip-off merchant who gets all the benefit and you end
up with a job you could diy for less without any grant.


Depends. I don't think I could have got the loft insulation as cheap as
the subsided job cost. And I didn't have to do it which isn't fun.
--
Chris French

george [dicegeorge] wrote:
Liberal Democrat Energy and Climate Change Secretary, Chris Huhne
announced today that by 2015 up to 100,000 Green Deal workers could be
employed in the effort to upgrade and insulate Britain’s homes.
....

Ok, I'm a software engineer/programmer. Where's my job?

JGH

Andy Dingley wrote:
On Nov 25, 5:11 pm, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

I am not hat paranoid or cynical, but in principle I agree.

"hat paranoid" ? Is that when you start wearing the tinfoil one?
no. its when teh keboard is wering out again.

On Nov 26, 1:22*pm, "Dave Liquorice"
wrote:
On Thu, 25 Nov 2010 09:51:07 -0800 (PST), harry wrote:
Solid walled houses are perfect for insulation. On the outside.

Yeah if you just have boring concrete, render or bricks. Not so good
with random stone and wanting to keep the building looking "in
keeping with the area".

The 8" walls become a heat reservoir.

Only 8"? Pah! the thinest here are 12". The nice "thermal store"
right through the middle of the house and full height/length of the
house is 18" thick and yes it does stabilse the house temperature.
But never ever let it get cold...

--
Cheers
Dave.

You can have whatever appearance you like on the outside. And the
thicker the walls are, the better. My previous house had stone walls
four feet thick. The present one was/is a 1930's brick construction.
I put in addtional footings an an extra outer leaf all the way round.
The big job is extending the roof if there's not much/enough existing
overhang.

On 27/11/2010 09:57, harry wrote:

My previous house had stone walls
four feet thick.

A castle? A converted lighthouse? A jail?

On Thu, 25 Nov 2010 13:26:55 +0000 George [dicegeorge] wrote :
Liberal Democrat Energy and Climate Change Secretary, Chris Huhne
announced today that by 2015 up to 100,000 Green Deal workers could
be employed in the effort to upgrade and insulate Britain’s homes.

I hope it works out better than the Australian loft insulation
programme:

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/poli...-1225857019940

--
Tony Bryer, Greentram: 'Software to build on' Melbourne, Australia
www.superbeam.co.uk www.eurobeam.co.uk www.greentram.com

harry wrote:
On Nov 26, 1:22 pm, "Dave Liquorice"
wrote:
On Thu, 25 Nov 2010 09:51:07 -0800 (PST), harry wrote:
Solid walled houses are perfect for insulation. On the outside.
Yeah if you just have boring concrete, render or bricks. Not so good
with random stone and wanting to keep the building looking "in
keeping with the area".

The 8" walls become a heat reservoir.
Only 8"? Pah! the thinest here are 12". The nice "thermal store"
right through the middle of the house and full height/length of the
house is 18" thick and yes it does stabilse the house temperature.
But never ever let it get cold...

--
Cheers
Dave.

You can have whatever appearance you like on the outside.

Subject to planning permission.

And the
thicker the walls are, the better. My previous house had stone walls
four feet thick. The present one was/is a 1930's brick construction.
I put in addtional footings an an extra outer leaf all the way round.
The big job is extending the roof if there's not much/enough existing
overhang.

Mmm. a friend may years ago had a listed farmhouse. They solved the
crappy structural and damp problems by essentially building a new block
work house INSIDE it.

That supported the rather rotted outer structure after they had fixed
the damp..

Tony Bryer wrote:
I hope it works out better than the Australian loft insulation
programme:

Yebbutt... everybody knows Australia doesn't need insulating.
Are telling me Neighbours lied to me?

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/poli...n-program-flaw...

"up to 1000 electrified roofs" ???

I'm guessing standard Oz roofs are sheet aluminium or something,
and a scattergun approach to nailing.

JGH

On Sat, 27 Nov 2010 09:59:05 -0800 (PST) Jgharston wrote :
Yebbutt... everybody knows Australia doesn't need insulating.
Are telling me Neighbours lied to me?

You do down here - it doesn't get that cold compared with the UK but most
'houses' are bungalows so the roof losses are significant. And it stops the
heat radiating down during the summer when loft spaces get seriously hot.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/poli...n-program-flaw...

"up to 1000 electrified roofs" ???

I'm guessing standard Oz roofs are sheet aluminium or something,
and a scattergun approach to nailing.

No, foil-faced insulation stapled into cables by untrained teenagers.

--
Tony Bryer, Greentram: 'Software to build on' Melbourne, Australia
www.superbeam.co.uk www.eurobeam.co.uk www.greentram.com

On Nov 27, 11:42*am, Roger Chapman wrote:
On 27/11/2010 09:57, harry wrote:

My previous house had stone walls
four feet thick.

A castle? A converted lighthouse? A jail?

Farmhouse. Late Tudor. Welsh hills. Elevation 1000' Raised cruck
construction. Footings nil. Depth of "foundation" abour six inches.
Walls thick enough to incorporate spiral staircases.

On 28/11/2010 08:25, harry wrote:

My previous house had stone walls
four feet thick.

A castle? A converted lighthouse? A jail?

Farmhouse. Late Tudor. Welsh hills. Elevation 1000' Raised cruck
construction. Footings nil. Depth of "foundation" abour six inches.
Walls thick enough to incorporate spiral staircases.

I happen to know someone who lives in an old (not that old) Welsh
farmhouse with a spiral stair built into the gable end. Gable ends apart
the walls are the typical thickness for rubble filled stone walls - 2
feet. Walls plus chimney breasts can also be up to 4 feet thick (I am am
sitting right next to one as I type) but unless wall thickness is
required for stairs or fireplaces there was no benefit from building
houses with walls more than two feet thick except for defence or support
for a massive structure above.

harry wrote:
On Nov 27, 11:42 am, Roger Chapman wrote:
On 27/11/2010 09:57, harry wrote:

My previous house had stone walls
four feet thick.
A castle? A converted lighthouse? A jail?

Farmhouse. Late Tudor. Welsh hills. Elevation 1000' Raised cruck
construction. Footings nil. Depth of "foundation" abour six inches.
Walls thick enough to incorporate spiral staircases.

Ah. been living on teh sosh that long huh?