Hello,

My FIL has fitted brass sockets. Perhaps it's me, but I can't
understand why anyone would want to get a socket made of metal and
connect it to 240v! But back to the point: they don't fit on the wall.
I have had a look at some old posts here and they hint that metal
sockets leave less room behind for the wires, so I guess this is his
problem. Why would a metal socket be deeper? After all, the three pin
plugs are the same length no matter what socket they are inserted
into.

What is the best solution to this? I haven't seen it so I don't know
how long the wires are or how deep the box is. Hopefully the wires
could be trimmed if there is excess; otherwise is it a matter of
chiseling out the back box and fitting a deeper one?

Thanks,
Stephen.

On Nov 14, 12:33*pm, Stephen wrote:
Hello,

My FIL has fitted brass sockets. Perhaps it's me, but I can't
understand why anyone would want to get a socket made of metal and
connect it to 240v! But back to the point: they don't fit on the wall.
I have had a look at some old posts here and they hint that metal
sockets leave less room behind for the wires, so I guess this is his
problem. Why would a metal socket be deeper? After all, the three pin
plugs are the same length no matter what socket they are inserted
into.

What is the best solution to this? I haven't seen it so I don't know
how long the wires are or how deep the box is. Hopefully the wires
could be trimmed if there is excess; otherwise is it a matter of
chiseling out the back box and fitting a deeper one?

Thanks,
Stephen.

There are various designs of metal sockets, some need deeper boxes
than others. Deeper boxes are always easier to work with.
As long as the metal is earthed, there is no danger. Most industrial
stuff is metal clad anyway. In days of yore, most stuff was metal
clad, until bakelite was invented. Don't trim off too much excess
wire, you never know when you might be glad of it.

Stephen wrote:
Hello,

My FIL has fitted brass sockets. Perhaps it's me, but I can't
understand why anyone would want to get a socket made of metal and
connect it to 240v!

My thoughts exactly!

Do check that the earth is connected, I've found several metal switches & a
few sockets where is wasn't...


--
Dave - The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk

On Nov 14, 1:14*pm, "The Medway Handyman" davidno-spam-
wrote:

Do check that the earth is connected, I've found several metal switches & a
few sockets where is wasn't...

Metal, or metal-faced plastic?

Metalclad boxes should be earthed, and if they aren't then it's simply
carelessness by the installer. Metal-faced plastic (and the crappy
ones from Aldi in particular) seem to depend too much on the quality
of their manufacture. I've seen a bunch of these where the metal is
very poorly attached and has fallen off, in a way that suggests its
earthing was quite tenuous to start with.

Some sockets require 35mm backboxes.
Indeed, if your wires enter from the rear then it is a good idea to
actually use 42mm backboxes due to bend-radius, risk of wire crushing
and space.

If the socket fronts are not sitting to the wall they contravene reg-
something re IPx4 on top (applies to sockets like anything else).
Additionally they may be crushing the wires behind, which is a good
way of a) having nuisance RCD tripping or even a fire since hot debris
can drop out of the box vs be contained b) having to replace the
cable(s).

Homes From Hell last night had a bizarre double fire - first a heater
for a hot-tub burnt the "barn" down, and then a (stalled) compressor
on a fridge freezer took out the entire building whilst they were away
on holiday. Mashing wires behind a socket is not acceptable, fit
deeper boxes (fold the old ones in, remove, refit deeper 35mm boxes)
or fit "non-flat" sockets. If there are 3-cables into any of the boxes
or rear-entry cables, you need to think about using 42mm with "flat-
front" sockets.

Stephen wrote:

I have had a look at some old posts here and they hint that metal
sockets leave less room behind for the wires, so I guess this is his
problem. Why would a metal socket be deeper? After all, the three pin
plugs are the same length no matter what socket they are inserted
into.

Metal sockets usually have a much thinner faceplate than plastic ones so the
whole socket assembly sits further back in the box leaving less room for
wiring.

--
Mike Clarke

In article ,
Stephen wrote:
My FIL has fitted brass sockets. Perhaps it's me, but I can't
understand why anyone would want to get a socket made of metal and
connect it to 240v!

Because plastic looks and is cheap?

But back to the point: they don't fit on the wall.
I have had a look at some old posts here and they hint that metal
sockets leave less room behind for the wires, so I guess this is his
problem. Why would a metal socket be deeper? After all, the three pin
plugs are the same length no matter what socket they are inserted
into.

Different designs of sockets require different back boxes. The
instructions provided with them - or in the maker's spec - will say
what's needed. Most are happier with 35mm types.

--
*Lottery: A tax on people who are bad at math.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Sun, 14 Nov 2010 06:10:00 -0800 (PST), "js.b1"
wrote:

Some sockets require 35mm backboxes.
Indeed, if your wires enter from the rear then it is a good idea to
actually use 42mm backboxes due to bend-radius, risk of wire crushing
and space.

Another reply said not to shorten the cables so I suppose there must
be an art to getting the right length: not too short that it is
difficult to insert and screw them up but not so long that they get
crushed and squashed behind the socket. What's the problem the
overheating? Is there a rule of thumb for the correct length?

If the socket fronts are not sitting to the wall they contravene reg-
something re IPx4 on top (applies to sockets like anything else).

On a different matter, if you use a surface box, often you knock a
square out using a large screwdriver. If you use 13mm trunking I guess
that's roughly the size of the knock-out. If you don't use it, how do
you seal the gap to make that IPx4 compliant?

Homes From Hell last night had a bizarre double fire - first a heater
for a hot-tub burnt the "barn" down, and then a (stalled) compressor
on a fridge freezer took out the entire building whilst they were away
on holiday.

I worked in a shop that had been destroyed by a fire caused by the
fridge. If you go on holiday and switch everything else off, you have
to leave the fridge and freezer on, so I don't know what you can do
about it.

Mashing wires behind a socket is not acceptable, fit
deeper boxes (fold the old ones in, remove, refit deeper 35mm boxes)
or fit "non-flat" sockets.

I don't think these sockets are flat. I haven't seen them yet but I
guess they are Georgian style brass ones.

I was interested that you said fold them in. How do you do that: hit
them with a cold chisel? Is there a magic way to take the old one out
and the new one in without removing too much of the surrounding
plaster?

Thanks,
Stephen.

In article ,
Stephen wrote:
Another reply said not to shorten the cables so I suppose there must
be an art to getting the right length: not too short that it is
difficult to insert and screw them up but not so long that they get
crushed and squashed behind the socket. What's the problem the
overheating? Is there a rule of thumb for the correct length?

I make them about 9" long. (From where the cable enters the back box)

--
*Don't join dangerous cults: Practice safe sects*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 21/11/10 14:17, Stephen wrote:
On Sun, 14 Nov 2010 06:10:00 -0800 (PST),
wrote:

Some sockets require 35mm backboxes.
Indeed, if your wires enter from the rear then it is a good idea to
actually use 42mm backboxes due to bend-radius, risk of wire crushing
and space.

Another reply said not to shorten the cables so I suppose there must
be an art to getting the right length: not too short that it is
difficult to insert and screw them up but not so long that they get
crushed and squashed behind the socket. What's the problem the
overheating? Is there a rule of thumb for the correct length?

I follow a rough rule of thumb that says the cable should be about a
diagonal of the box in length.

I then form the conductors into some rough approximation of a semicircle
between the cable entry and the location of their terminal.

This gives me enough slack to work on the plate, but as it is replaced,
the conductors fold back aka the coils in a spring which avoids
unnecessary pressure and wire strain.

I agree with the sentiments re rear entry. I have 35mm boxes, plus
5-10mm of plaster and two have rear entry and they were getting towards
being a little tight with normal plates (GET Ultimate plastic). If the
box was hard level with the surface of the plaster and I'd tried to use
metal plates, it probably would have been tighter than I would like.

The main problem with crushing is damage to the insulation and the
possibility of fracturing the conductor.

There is a secondary problem with T+E depending on how it is bent to do
with the conductors cutting through the insulation over time. This would
be more of a problem with a bend "on the edge" (ie the hard way with
T+E) where the outer conductor may be under tension. Not seen that
myself, but I've seen it mentioned somewhere).
--
Tim Watts

Tim Watts wrote:
On 21/11/10 14:17, Stephen wrote:
On Sun, 14 Nov 2010 06:10:00 -0800 (PST),
wrote:

Some sockets require 35mm backboxes.
Indeed, if your wires enter from the rear then it is a good idea to
actually use 42mm backboxes due to bend-radius, risk of wire
crushing and space.

Another reply said not to shorten the cables so I suppose there must
be an art to getting the right length: not too short that it is
difficult to insert and screw them up but not so long that they get
crushed and squashed behind the socket. What's the problem the
overheating? Is there a rule of thumb for the correct length?

I follow a rough rule of thumb that says the cable should be about a
diagonal of the box in length.

I just take each cable to the furthest corner of the back box and add on the
amount needed to strip back the insulation for the connection. So I have
wires of different lengths depending upon their cable entry positions.

One thing that does help is not having two T&E coming through the same entry
point.

--
Adam

On Sun, 21 Nov 2010 14:45:08 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

I make them about 9" long.

Oh, that seemed a bit long to me.

I've been and had a look at the socket. It is not a flat type but it
looks like it is a spur because there are three cables and there is
not enough room for all of them.

I think a bigger back box with do it. I guess it's got to be done by
hand since you can't plug the sds drill in if the socket isn't on the
wall Unless I find a socket on a different ring and get out the
extension lead.

Thanks,
Stephen.

In article ,
Stephen wrote:
On Sun, 21 Nov 2010 14:45:08 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

I make them about 9" long.

Oh, that seemed a bit long to me.

If the cables enter at the centre of the box, that's long enough for them
to go to either side then fold back to the terminals - regardless of where
those are on the fitting.

I've been and had a look at the socket. It is not a flat type but it
looks like it is a spur because there are three cables and there is
not enough room for all of them.

Hence the need for 35mm boxes. I never bother with smaller.

I think a bigger back box with do it. I guess it's got to be done by
hand since you can't plug the sds drill in if the socket isn't on the
wall Unless I find a socket on a different ring and get out the
extension lead.

You could pull all the cables out and use a 30 amp chocolate block
temporarily. Then plug in to a different socket on the same ring.

--
*I like cats, too. Let's exchange recipes.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Stephen wrote:
On Sun, 21 Nov 2010 14:45:08 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

I make them about 9" long.

Oh, that seemed a bit long to me.

Ooh err missus.

--
Adam

On Mon, 22 Nov 2010 17:50:49 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

Hence the need for 35mm boxes. I never bother with smaller.

I took the advice of this group long ago and have only used 35mm boxes
ever since.

You could pull all the cables out and use a 30 amp chocolate block
temporarily. Then plug in to a different socket on the same ring.

And make sure not to chisel the choc box! A good idea though, thanks.

Thanks,
Stephen.

On Sun, 21 Nov 2010 14:51:57 +0000, Tim Watts wrote:

The main problem with crushing is damage to the insulation and the
possibility of fracturing the conductor.

Thanks. I never knew that. I thought it was overheating in a confined
space or something. I hadn't realised they could fracture.

Thanks,
Stephen.

On 29/11/10 20:44, Stephen wrote:
On Sun, 21 Nov 2010 14:51:57 +0000, Tim wrote:

The main problem with crushing is damage to the insulation and the
possibility of fracturing the conductor.

Thanks. I never knew that. I thought it was overheating in a confined
space or something. I hadn't realised they could fracture.


If one gets caught in a bend then squished flat, it's quite likely. Not
the first time the box goes on probably[1] but more likely the 2nd or
3rd time as the copper work hardens and is subjected to extreme repeated
bending.

[1] But more likely at the terminal - the screw biting in weakens the
conductor to some extent and it's not too hard to get a fracture here,
even with space.

Out of 3 rings and about 25 sockets, I had one neutral do that even
though my standard of assembly is "careful". The end-end test picked
that up straight away - and that is a meaningful test that can be done
with a basic multimeter (disconnect all the ring conductors at the CU -
then as 3 separate tests, measure L-L, N-N and E-E.

Spots breaks and crossed wires straight away.

--
Tim Watts

On Mon, 22 Nov 2010 17:50:49 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

You could pull all the cables out and use a 30 amp chocolate block
temporarily. Then plug in to a different socket on the same ring.

Just to follow-up, he's decided if we are going to change the back box
then we may as well upgrade it to a double. I've just bought a brass
socket from Tool station. The strange thing is, it comes with a
plastic "washer" that it tells you to insider between the socket and
the wall. I never expected that. It means that it keeps the metalwork
of the socket does not touch the metal work of the back box, though
the screws will provide contact. What is the reason behind this?

Thanks,
Stephen.

On 30/11/2010 in message
Stephen wrote:

On Mon, 22 Nov 2010 17:50:49 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

You could pull all the cables out and use a 30 amp chocolate block
temporarily. Then plug in to a different socket on the same ring.

Just to follow-up, he's decided if we are going to change the back box
then we may as well upgrade it to a double. I've just bought a brass
socket from Tool station. The strange thing is, it comes with a
plastic "washer" that it tells you to insider between the socket and
the wall. I never expected that. It means that it keeps the metalwork
of the socket does not touch the metal work of the back box, though
the screws will provide contact. What is the reason behind this?

It keeps the Brasso off the wall decorations.

--
Those are my principles – and if you don’t like them, well, I have others.
(Groucho Marx)

Stephen wrote:
On Mon, 22 Nov 2010 17:50:49 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

You could pull all the cables out and use a 30 amp chocolate block
temporarily. Then plug in to a different socket on the same ring.

Just to follow-up, he's decided if we are going to change the back box
then we may as well upgrade it to a double. I've just bought a brass
socket from Tool station. The strange thing is, it comes with a
plastic "washer" that it tells you to insider between the socket and
the wall. I never expected that. It means that it keeps the metalwork
of the socket does not touch the metal work of the back box, though
the screws will provide contact. What is the reason behind this?

The (washer) gasket is there to stop the socket getting tarnished by the
plaster. This should not be a problem if the plaster is dry/painted/papered.

The socket front is very unlikely to be touching the metal back box unless
you fit the backbox flush to the plaster. Even then the socket front might
still not be touching the backbox depending on the design of the socket.

The screws that hold the front to the backbox will earth the backbox
although there is no reason why you cannot add a "fly lead" from the sockets
earth terminal to the backbox earth terminal if you want to.

Cheers

--
Adam