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| UK diy (uk.d-i-y) For the discussion of all topics related to diy (do-it-yourself) in the UK. All levels of experience and proficency are welcome to join in to ask questions or offer solutions. |
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#1
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Bosun's chair access
Hi
I need to do some work from a bosun's chair, and can't remember the right terminology for the method used to control the rope. Very simple, but cant think of the name of the technique used, also used for asbeiling. Thanks, NT |
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#2
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Bosun's chair access
On 8 Oct, 20:49, Tabby wrote:
Hi I need to do some work from a bosun's chair, and can't remember the right terminology for the method used to control the rope. Very simple, but cant think of the name of the technique used, also used for asbeiling. Thanks, NT .... belaying |
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#3
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Bosun's chair access
"Tabby" wrote in message ... Hi I need to do some work from a bosun's chair, and can't remember the right terminology for the method used to control the rope. Very simple, but cant think of the name of the technique used, also used for asbeiling. Thanks, NT Belaying. Putting friction on the rope so as to control descents by threading it through a karibiner*, descender, or similar. *Nice locking karibiners around £5.50 in Toolstation. michael adams .... |
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#4
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Bosun's chair access
On 08/10/2010 22:07, michael adams wrote:
Belaying. Putting friction on the rope so as to control descents by threading it through a karibiner*, descender, or similar. Odd. My (recreational) sailors vocabulary has belay meaning to fasten or tie. Not for controlled movement. Andy |
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#5
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Bosun's chair access
"Andy Champ" wrote in message . uk... On 08/10/2010 22:07, michael adams wrote: Belaying. Putting friction on the rope so as to control descents by threading it through a karibiner*, descender, or similar. Odd. My (recreational) sailors vocabulary has belay meaning to fasten or tie. Not for controlled movement. Andy Also can mean "Stop doing that" as in "Belay that you scurvey landlubber" AWEM |
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#6
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Bosun's chair access
On Oct 8, 8:49*pm, Tabby wrote:
Hi I need to do some work from a bosun's chair, and can't remember the right terminology for the method used to control the rope. Very simple, but cant think of the name of the technique used, also used for asbeiling. Thanks, NT any recommendations on where to get the rope from? NT |
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#7
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Bosun's chair access
On 10 Oct,
Tabby wrote: On Oct 8, 8:49*pm, Tabby wrote: Hi I need to do some work from a bosun's chair, and can't remember the right terminology for the method used to control the rope. Very simple, but cant think of the name of the technique used, also used for asbeiling. Thanks, NT any recommendations on where to get the rope from? If you have a Go Outdoors nearby they seem well priced for rope. Much better than B&Q. -- B Thumbs Change lycos to yahoo to reply |
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#8
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Bosun's chair access
Andrew Mawson wrote:
"Andy Champ" wrote in message . uk... On 08/10/2010 22:07, michael adams wrote: Belaying. Putting friction on the rope so as to control descents by threading it through a karibiner*, descender, or similar. Odd. My (recreational) sailors vocabulary has belay meaning to fasten or tie. Not for controlled movement. Andy Also can mean "Stop doing that" as in "Belay that you scurvey landlubber" It means MAKE FAST. I.e. get something nailed down, tied up or stopped. AWEM |
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#9
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Bosun's chair access
"Andy Champ" wrote in message . uk... On 08/10/2010 22:07, michael adams wrote: Belaying. Putting friction on the rope so as to control descents by threading it through a karibiner*, descender, or similar. Odd. My (recreational) sailors vocabulary has belay meaning to fasten or tie. Not for controlled movement. Andy quote Mountaineering Basics: Applying Friction: Belay Devices Most belay devices amplify the friction of the braking hand by passing the rope through an opening and wrapping it around a post. There are several types of belay devices from which you may choose. How does a belay device work? * The opening guarantees a minimum of wrap, or bend, in the rope to produce enough friction on the post. * The post is usually a locking carabiner or part of the device ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^ itself. ^^^^^^^ * The opening must be large enough to allow the device to touch the carabiner. /quote michael adams http://www.getoutdoors.com/go/golearn/160 |
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#10
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Bosun's chair access
"Andrew Mawson" wrote in message ... "Andy Champ" wrote in message . uk... On 08/10/2010 22:07, michael adams wrote: Belaying. Putting friction on the rope so as to control descents by threading it through a karibiner*, descender, or similar. Odd. My (recreational) sailors vocabulary has belay meaning to fasten or tie. Not for controlled movement. Andy Also can mean "Stop doing that" as in "Belay that you scurvey landlubber" AWEM quote Mountaineering Basics: Applying Friction: Belay Devices Most belay devices amplify the friction of the braking hand by passing the rope through an opening and wrapping it around a post. There are several types of belay devices from which you may choose. How does a belay device work? * The opening guarantees a minimum of wrap, or bend, in the rope to produce enough friction on the post. * The post is usually a locking carabiner or part of the device ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^ itself. ^^^^^^^ * The opening must be large enough to allow the device to touch the carabiner. /quote michael adams http://www.getoutdoors.com/go/golearn/160 |
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#11
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Bosun's chair access
"Tabby" wrote in message ... On Oct 8, 8:49 pm, Tabby wrote: Hi I need to do some work from a bosun's chair, and can't remember the right terminology for the method used to control the rope. Very simple, but cant think of the name of the technique used, also used for asbeiling. Thanks, NT - any recommendations on where to get the rope from? - NT It depends on how much you need. If you go to a mountaineering or outdoor shop you can buy proper mountaineering rope which has a woven core and a smooth outer casing but this is only available in very long lengths and so can work out very expensive. These ropes are thin however and will thread through equipment quite easily Screwfix* do a woven white nylon rope which is guaranteed to take 21 stone, ISTR its tested to take to 4 times that weight. This is also quite expensive (from memory and presently too lazy to look it up) at around £50 for 40 metres. The minimum length. This rope is thicker around 12mm but still threads o.k. Worth the money though as its better than falling out of a tree which is what I use it for. I use very long poles to thread starter ropes through junctions on very high branches and secure it that way. Just as security rope when working off a high ladder not to climb. Rope in places like B&Q usually doesn't usually indicate a braking strain, and is miles too expensive in any case. michael adams *I'm lucky. Near where I live on an industrial park Toolstation and Screwfix are two doors away from each other |
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#12
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Bosun's chair access
michael adams wrote:
"Andy Champ" wrote in message . uk... On 08/10/2010 22:07, michael adams wrote: Belaying. Putting friction on the rope so as to control descents by threading it through a karibiner*, descender, or similar. Odd. My (recreational) sailors vocabulary has belay meaning to fasten or tie. Not for controlled movement. Andy quote Mountaineering Basics: Applying Friction: Belay Devices Most belay devices amplify the friction of the braking hand by passing the rope through an opening and wrapping it around a post. There are several types of belay devices from which you may choose. How does a belay device work? * The opening guarantees a minimum of wrap, or bend, in the rope to produce enough friction on the post. * The post is usually a locking carabiner or part of the device ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^ itself. ^^^^^^^ * The opening must be large enough to allow the device to touch the carabiner. /quote michael adams http://www.getoutdoors.com/go/golearn/160 which just goes to show hat mountainears dont spik proppa inglish. http://www.thefreedictionary.com/belay shows that he correct usage is to make FAST. Even in mountaineering. A RUNNING belay is a rope looped to a piton (or equiv.) attached carabiner. Its an abortion of a term, but on common usage. Whatever abseiling is, its not a belay. Belay is absolutely to hold securely in a fixed place. Even if its your tongue :-) |
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#13
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Bosun's chair access
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
michael adams wrote: "Andy Champ" wrote in message . uk... On 08/10/2010 22:07, michael adams wrote: Belaying. Putting friction on the rope so as to control descents by threading it through a karibiner*, descender, or similar. Odd. My (recreational) sailors vocabulary has belay meaning to fasten or tie. Not for controlled movement. Andy quote Mountaineering Basics: Applying Friction: Belay Devices Most belay devices amplify the friction of the braking hand by passing the rope through an opening and wrapping it around a post. There are several types of belay devices from which you may choose. How does a belay device work? * The opening guarantees a minimum of wrap, or bend, in the rope to produce enough friction on the post. * The post is usually a locking carabiner or part of the device ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^ itself. ^^^^^^^ * The opening must be large enough to allow the device to touch the carabiner. /quote michael adams http://www.getoutdoors.com/go/golearn/160 which just goes to show hat mountainears dont spik proppa inglish. http://www.thefreedictionary.com/belay shows that he correct usage is to make FAST. Even in mountaineering. A RUNNING belay is a rope looped to a piton (or equiv.) attached carabiner. Its an abortion of a term, but on common usage. Whatever abseiling is, its not a belay. Belay is absolutely to hold securely in a fixed place. Even if its your tongue :-) Possibly the item the OP wants is a ratchet cleat? |
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#14
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Bosun's chair access
On 11/10/2010 13:59, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
michael adams wrote: "Andy Champ" wrote in message . uk... On 08/10/2010 22:07, michael adams wrote: Belaying. Putting friction on the rope so as to control descents by threading it through a karibiner*, descender, or similar. Odd. My (recreational) sailors vocabulary has belay meaning to fasten or tie. Not for controlled movement. Andy quote Mountaineering Basics: Applying Friction: Belay Devices Most belay devices amplify the friction of the braking hand by passing the rope through an opening and wrapping it around a post. There are several types of belay devices from which you may choose. How does a belay device work? * The opening guarantees a minimum of wrap, or bend, in the rope to produce enough friction on the post. * The post is usually a locking carabiner or part of the device ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^ itself. ^^^^^^^ * The opening must be large enough to allow the device to touch the carabiner. /quote michael adams http://www.getoutdoors.com/go/golearn/160 which just goes to show hat mountainears dont spik proppa inglish. http://www.thefreedictionary.com/belay shows that he correct usage is to make FAST. Even in mountaineering. A RUNNING belay is a rope looped to a piton (or equiv.) attached carabiner. Its an abortion of a term, but on common usage. Whatever abseiling is, its not a belay. Belay is absolutely to hold securely in a fixed place. Even if its your tongue :-) Belaying in mountaineering is the same thing - it's to hold the climber in the event of a fall. Abseiling isn't belaying. In practice, a device which works for one will probably work for the other, but that doesn't make the actions the same. Thus michael is wrong, but mountaineers do speak proper English. |
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#15
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Bosun's chair access
"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message ... michael adams wrote: "Andy Champ" wrote in message . uk... On 08/10/2010 22:07, michael adams wrote: Belaying. Putting friction on the rope so as to control descents by threading it through a karibiner*, descender, or similar. Odd. My (recreational) sailors vocabulary has belay meaning to fasten or tie. Not for controlled movement. Andy quote Mountaineering Basics: Applying Friction: Belay Devices Most belay devices amplify the friction of the braking hand by passing the rope through an opening and wrapping it around a post. There are several types of belay devices from which you may choose. How does a belay device work? * The opening guarantees a minimum of wrap, or bend, in the rope to produce enough friction on the post. * The post is usually a locking carabiner or part of the device ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^ itself. ^^^^^^^ * The opening must be large enough to allow the device to touch the carabiner. /quote michael adams http://www.getoutdoors.com/go/golearn/160 which just goes to show hat mountainears dont spik proppa inglish. http://www.thefreedictionary.com/belay shows that he correct usage is to make FAST. Even in mountaineering. A RUNNING belay is a rope looped to a piton (or equiv.) attached carabiner. Its an abortion of a term, but on common usage. Whatever abseiling is, its not a belay. Belay is absolutely to hold securely in a fixed place. Even if its your tongue :-) In which case climbers could simply drive a spike into the mountain or whatever, tie a rope to that, and then tie that rope to their harness. No need to fork out all this dosh on all these aluminium gadgets at up to £50 a pop. Then having climbed his mountain, and being securely fixed in place with his belay, i.e. his spike, and his rope, with the extra big knots just to be sure, presumably the climber is going to have to stay up there forever. Securely fixed in place. michael adams .... |
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#16
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Bosun's chair access
michael adams wrote:
"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message ... michael adams wrote: "Andy Champ" wrote in message . uk... On 08/10/2010 22:07, michael adams wrote: Belaying. Putting friction on the rope so as to control descents by threading it through a karibiner*, descender, or similar. Odd. My (recreational) sailors vocabulary has belay meaning to fasten or tie. Not for controlled movement. Andy quote Mountaineering Basics: Applying Friction: Belay Devices Most belay devices amplify the friction of the braking hand by passing the rope through an opening and wrapping it around a post. There are several types of belay devices from which you may choose. How does a belay device work? * The opening guarantees a minimum of wrap, or bend, in the rope to produce enough friction on the post. * The post is usually a locking carabiner or part of the device ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^ itself. ^^^^^^^ * The opening must be large enough to allow the device to touch the carabiner. /quote michael adams http://www.getoutdoors.com/go/golearn/160 which just goes to show hat mountainears dont spik proppa inglish. http://www.thefreedictionary.com/belay shows that he correct usage is to make FAST. Even in mountaineering. A RUNNING belay is a rope looped to a piton (or equiv.) attached carabiner. Its an abortion of a term, but on common usage. Whatever abseiling is, its not a belay. Belay is absolutely to hold securely in a fixed place. Even if its your tongue :-) In which case climbers could simply drive a spike into the mountain or whatever, tie a rope to that, and then tie that rope to their harness. No need to fork out all this dosh on all these aluminium gadgets at up to £50 a pop. Then having climbed his mountain, and being securely fixed in place with his belay, i.e. his spike, and his rope, with the extra big knots just to be sure, presumably the climber is going to have to stay up there forever. Securely fixed in place. Don't be more of a prat than you have to. A belay is tying off to a fixed place. Carabiners are there to make access to that easy. Running belays are again attaching to a fixed place. But not by a fixed length of rope. They are streets away from a bosuns chair with either has a specific ratchet or specific friction device to control hauling up, or coming down in a controlled fashion. These are not known as belays. michael adams ... |
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#17
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Bosun's chair access
"Clive George" wrote in message news  On 11/10/2010 13:59, The Natural Philosopher wrote: michael adams wrote: "Andy Champ" wrote in message . uk... On 08/10/2010 22:07, michael adams wrote: Belaying. Putting friction on the rope so as to control descents by threading it through a karibiner*, descender, or similar. Odd. My (recreational) sailors vocabulary has belay meaning to fasten or tie. Not for controlled movement. Andy quote Mountaineering Basics: Applying Friction: Belay Devices Most belay devices amplify the friction of the braking hand by passing the rope through an opening and wrapping it around a post. There are several types of belay devices from which you may choose. How does a belay device work? * The opening guarantees a minimum of wrap, or bend, in the rope to produce enough friction on the post. * The post is usually a locking carabiner or part of the device ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^ itself. ^^^^^^^ * The opening must be large enough to allow the device to touch the carabiner. /quote michael adams http://www.getoutdoors.com/go/golearn/160 which just goes to show hat mountainears dont spik proppa inglish. http://www.thefreedictionary.com/belay shows that he correct usage is to make FAST. Even in mountaineering. A RUNNING belay is a rope looped to a piton (or equiv.) attached carabiner. Its an abortion of a term, but on common usage. Whatever abseiling is, its not a belay. Belay is absolutely to hold securely in a fixed place. Even if its your tongue :-) Belaying in mountaineering is the same thing - it's to hold the climber in the event of a fall. In which case why doesn't the the climber simply attach the rope directly to the harness. ? What possible purpose is served by belaying devices ? michael adams .... Abseiling isn't belaying. In practice, a device which works for one will probably work for the other, but that doesn't make the actions the same. Thus michael is wrong, but mountaineers do speak proper English. |
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#18
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Bosun's chair access
michael adams wrote:
"Clive George" wrote in message news On 11/10/2010 13:59, The Natural Philosopher wrote: michael adams wrote: "Andy Champ" wrote in message . uk... On 08/10/2010 22:07, michael adams wrote: Belaying. Putting friction on the rope so as to control descents by threading it through a karibiner*, descender, or similar. Odd. My (recreational) sailors vocabulary has belay meaning to fasten or tie. Not for controlled movement. Andy quote Mountaineering Basics: Applying Friction: Belay Devices Most belay devices amplify the friction of the braking hand by passing the rope through an opening and wrapping it around a post. There are several types of belay devices from which you may choose. How does a belay device work? * The opening guarantees a minimum of wrap, or bend, in the rope to produce enough friction on the post. * The post is usually a locking carabiner or part of the device ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^ itself. ^^^^^^^ * The opening must be large enough to allow the device to touch the carabiner. /quote michael adams http://www.getoutdoors.com/go/golearn/160 which just goes to show hat mountainears dont spik proppa inglish. http://www.thefreedictionary.com/belay shows that he correct usage is to make FAST. Even in mountaineering. A RUNNING belay is a rope looped to a piton (or equiv.) attached carabiner. Its an abortion of a term, but on common usage. Whatever abseiling is, its not a belay. Belay is absolutely to hold securely in a fixed place. Even if its your tongue :-) Belaying in mountaineering is the same thing - it's to hold the climber in the event of a fall. In which case why doesn't the the climber simply attach the rope directly to the harness. ? They do. What possible purpose is served by belaying devices ? What 'belaying devices'? All I have ever used is carabiners and slings. Attached to Pitons. Even for a running belay. It was many years ago mind you. Maybe there are lazier ways for stupid people to climb rocks these days. michael adams ... Abseiling isn't belaying. In practice, a device which works for one will probably work for the other, but that doesn't make the actions the same. Thus michael is wrong, but mountaineers do speak proper English. |
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#19
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Bosun's chair access
On 11/10/2010 15:31, michael adams wrote:
"Clive wrote in message news On 11/10/2010 13:59, The Natural Philosopher wrote: michael adams wrote: "Andy wrote in message . uk... On 08/10/2010 22:07, michael adams wrote: Belaying. Putting friction on the rope so as to control descents by threading it through a karibiner*, descender, or similar. Odd. My (recreational) sailors vocabulary has belay meaning to fasten or tie. Not for controlled movement. Andy quote Mountaineering Basics: Applying Friction: Belay Devices Most belay devices amplify the friction of the braking hand by passing the rope through an opening and wrapping it around a post. There are several types of belay devices from which you may choose. How does a belay device work? * The opening guarantees a minimum of wrap, or bend, in the rope to produce enough friction on the post. * The post is usually a locking carabiner or part of the device ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^ itself. ^^^^^^^ * The opening must be large enough to allow the device to touch the carabiner. /quote michael adams http://www.getoutdoors.com/go/golearn/160 which just goes to show hat mountainears dont spik proppa inglish. http://www.thefreedictionary.com/belay shows that he correct usage is to make FAST. Even in mountaineering. A RUNNING belay is a rope looped to a piton (or equiv.) attached carabiner. Its an abortion of a term, but on common usage. Whatever abseiling is, its not a belay. Belay is absolutely to hold securely in a fixed place. Even if its your tongue :-) Belaying in mountaineering is the same thing - it's to hold the climber in the event of a fall. In which case why doesn't the the climber simply attach the rope directly to the harness. ? Half the climbers involved do precisely that. What possible purpose is served by belaying devices ? They are there to allow belaying, ie to prevent a fall. That is their primary purpose. Once the fall has been prevented, yes, one may want to allow a climber down. And more importantly, one will also want the belaying device to allow rope through as the climber ascends. But neither are belaying. That's from the device's point of view. From the point of view of the person using one, yes, they are belaying - they are making sure that at all times they're in a position to hold a fall. Abseiling isn't belaying. In practice, a device which works for one will probably work for the other, but that doesn't make the actions the same. Thus michael is wrong, but mountaineers do speak proper English. |
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#20
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Bosun's chair access
Clive George wrote:
On 11/10/2010 15:31, michael adams wrote: "Clive wrote in message news On 11/10/2010 13:59, The Natural Philosopher wrote: michael adams wrote: "Andy wrote in message . uk... On 08/10/2010 22:07, michael adams wrote: Belaying. Putting friction on the rope so as to control descents by threading it through a karibiner*, descender, or similar. Odd. My (recreational) sailors vocabulary has belay meaning to fasten or tie. Not for controlled movement. Andy quote Mountaineering Basics: Applying Friction: Belay Devices Most belay devices amplify the friction of the braking hand by passing the rope through an opening and wrapping it around a post. There are several types of belay devices from which you may choose. How does a belay device work? * The opening guarantees a minimum of wrap, or bend, in the rope to produce enough friction on the post. * The post is usually a locking carabiner or part of the device ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^ itself. ^^^^^^^ * The opening must be large enough to allow the device to touch the carabiner. /quote michael adams http://www.getoutdoors.com/go/golearn/160 which just goes to show hat mountainears dont spik proppa inglish. http://www.thefreedictionary.com/belay shows that he correct usage is to make FAST. Even in mountaineering. A RUNNING belay is a rope looped to a piton (or equiv.) attached carabiner. Its an abortion of a term, but on common usage. Whatever abseiling is, its not a belay. Belay is absolutely to hold securely in a fixed place. Even if its your tongue :-) Belaying in mountaineering is the same thing - it's to hold the climber in the event of a fall. In which case why doesn't the the climber simply attach the rope directly to the harness. ? Half the climbers involved do precisely that. What possible purpose is served by belaying devices ? They are there to allow belaying, ie to prevent a fall. belaying does not mean preventing a fall, any more than tying a knot means holding your shoes on. A belay is simply a holding point. To belay means to make fast to (presumably a holding point). That is their primary purpose. The devices I found are merely 'shock absorbers'..some with inertia reel type devices so you can climb, but not fall through them. I suppose they are called belaying devices because they attach to belays, but their function is nothing to do woy tyhe menaing of 'be;lay' Any more than car wheels are what cars *do*. Once the fall has been prevented, yes, one may want to allow a climber down. And more importantly, one will also want the belaying device to allow rope through as the climber ascends. But neither are belaying. That's from the device's point of view. From the point of view of the person using one, yes, they are belaying - they are making sure that at all times they're in a position to hold a fall. Strictly, they are firmly attached to a static point. The fact that prevents them falling very far, is a side issue linguistically. |
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#21
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Bosun's chair access
On 11/10/2010 16:22, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Clive George wrote: On 11/10/2010 15:31, michael adams wrote: "Clive wrote in message news
On 11/10/2010 13:59, The Natural Philosopher wrote:michael adams wrote: "Andy wrote in message . uk... On 08/10/2010 22:07, michael adams wrote: Belaying. Putting friction on the rope so as to control descents by threading it through a karibiner*, descender, or similar. Odd. My (recreational) sailors vocabulary has belay meaning to fasten or tie. Not for controlled movement. Andy quote Mountaineering Basics: Applying Friction: Belay Devices Most belay devices amplify the friction of the braking hand by passing the rope through an opening and wrapping it around a post. There are several types of belay devices from which you may choose. How does a belay device work? * The opening guarantees a minimum of wrap, or bend, in the rope to produce enough friction on the post. * The post is usually a locking carabiner or part of the device ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^ itself. ^^^^^^^ * The opening must be large enough to allow the device to touch the carabiner. /quote michael adams http://www.getoutdoors.com/go/golearn/160 which just goes to show hat mountainears dont spik proppa inglish. http://www.thefreedictionary.com/belay shows that he correct usage is to make FAST. Even in mountaineering. A RUNNING belay is a rope looped to a piton (or equiv.) attached carabiner. Its an abortion of a term, but on common usage. Whatever abseiling is, its not a belay. Belay is absolutely to hold securely in a fixed place. Even if its your tongue :-) Belaying in mountaineering is the same thing - it's to hold the climber in the event of a fall. In which case why doesn't the the climber simply attach the rope directly to the harness. ? Half the climbers involved do precisely that. What possible purpose is served by belaying devices ? They are there to allow belaying, ie to prevent a fall. belaying does not mean preventing a fall, any more than tying a knot means holding your shoes on. Ok, not prevent a fall, prevent a fall from going too far. A belay is simply a holding point. To belay means to make fast to (presumably a holding point). Yes, and in mountaineering the time you want to make things fast is when they're falling off. That is their primary purpose. The devices I found are merely 'shock absorbers'..some with inertia reel type devices so you can climb, but not fall through them. I suppose they are called belaying devices because they attach to belays, but their function is nothing to do woy tyhe menaing of 'be;lay' No, it's about holding the fall - holding the climber who would otherwise be falling. |
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#22
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Bosun's chair access
"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message ... michael adams wrote: "The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message ... michael adams wrote: "Andy Champ" wrote in message . uk... On 08/10/2010 22:07, michael adams wrote: Belaying. Putting friction on the rope so as to control descents by threading it through a karibiner*, descender, or similar. Odd. My (recreational) sailors vocabulary has belay meaning to fasten or tie. Not for controlled movement. Andy quote Mountaineering Basics: Applying Friction: Belay Devices Most belay devices amplify the friction of the braking hand by passing the rope through an opening and wrapping it around a post. There are several types of belay devices from which you may choose. How does a belay device work? * The opening guarantees a minimum of wrap, or bend, in the rope to produce enough friction on the post. * The post is usually a locking carabiner or part of the device ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^ itself. ^^^^^^^ * The opening must be large enough to allow the device to touch the carabiner. /quote michael adams http://www.getoutdoors.com/go/golearn/160 which just goes to show hat mountainears dont spik proppa inglish. http://www.thefreedictionary.com/belay shows that he correct usage is to make FAST. Even in mountaineering. A RUNNING belay is a rope looped to a piton (or equiv.) attached carabiner. Its an abortion of a term, but on common usage. Whatever abseiling is, its not a belay. Belay is absolutely to hold securely in a fixed place. Even if its your tongue :-) In which case climbers could simply drive a spike into the mountain or whatever, tie a rope to that, and then tie that rope to their harness. No need to fork out all this dosh on all these aluminium gadgets at up to £50 a pop. Then having climbed his mountain, and being securely fixed in place with his belay, i.e. his spike, and his rope, with the extra big knots just to be sure, presumably the climber is going to have to stay up there forever. Securely fixed in place. Don't be more of a prat than you have to. A belay is tying off to a fixed place. Carabiners are there to make access to that easy. But you just stated above that " Belay is absolutely to hold securely in a fixed place" But the a rope threaded through a carabiner is only "held securely" at one end in the first place, isn't it ? At the spike end . Its only threaded through the caribiner, not tied to it. The speed with which it will thread through the caribiner is determined by the angle it leaves the caribiner which is controlled by the climber. For most designs the closer the angle of exit to the angle of entry the faster the rope will thread through. While at 90% it should come to a dead stop. That's the whole point of belay devices as opposed to simply tying a rope directly to the harness - which according to your definition is the only belay which actually meets your specifiation. They allow the climber to control the rope by the use of friction. michael adams .... Running belays are again attaching to a fixed place. But not by a fixed length of rope. They are streets away from a bosuns chair with either has a specific ratchet or specific friction device to control hauling up, or coming down in a controlled fashion. These are not known as belays. michael adams ... |
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#23
Posted to uk.d-i-y
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Bosun's chair access
michael adams wrote:
"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message ... michael adams wrote: "The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message ... michael adams wrote: "Andy Champ" wrote in message . uk... On 08/10/2010 22:07, michael adams wrote: Belaying. Putting friction on the rope so as to control descents by threading it through a karibiner*, descender, or similar. Odd. My (recreational) sailors vocabulary has belay meaning to fasten or tie. Not for controlled movement. Andy quote Mountaineering Basics: Applying Friction: Belay Devices Most belay devices amplify the friction of the braking hand by passing the rope through an opening and wrapping it around a post. There are several types of belay devices from which you may choose. How does a belay device work? * The opening guarantees a minimum of wrap, or bend, in the rope to produce enough friction on the post. * The post is usually a locking carabiner or part of the device ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^ itself. ^^^^^^^ * The opening must be large enough to allow the device to touch the carabiner. /quote michael adams http://www.getoutdoors.com/go/golearn/160 which just goes to show hat mountainears dont spik proppa inglish. http://www.thefreedictionary.com/belay shows that he correct usage is to make FAST. Even in mountaineering. A RUNNING belay is a rope looped to a piton (or equiv.) attached carabiner. Its an abortion of a term, but on common usage. Whatever abseiling is, its not a belay. Belay is absolutely to hold securely in a fixed place. Even if its your tongue :-) In which case climbers could simply drive a spike into the mountain or whatever, tie a rope to that, and then tie that rope to their harness. No need to fork out all this dosh on all these aluminium gadgets at up to £50 a pop. Then having climbed his mountain, and being securely fixed in place with his belay, i.e. his spike, and his rope, with the extra big knots just to be sure, presumably the climber is going to have to stay up there forever. Securely fixed in place. Don't be more of a prat than you have to. A belay is tying off to a fixed place. Carabiners are there to make access to that easy. But you just stated above that " Belay is absolutely to hold securely in a fixed place" But the a rope threaded through a carabiner is only "held securely" at one end in the first place, isn't it ? At the spike end . Its only threaded through the caribiner, not tied to it. The speed with which it will thread through the caribiner is determined by the angle it leaves the caribiner which is controlled by the climber. For most designs the closer the angle of exit to the angle of entry the faster the rope will thread through. While at 90% it should come to a dead stop. That's the whole point of belay devices as opposed to simply tying a rope directly to the harness - which according to your definition is the only belay which actually meets your specifiation. They allow the climber to control the rope by the use of friction. Its not my fault if you don't understand what belay means and why its been used by rock climbers, and now it seems completely abused. |
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#24
Posted to uk.d-i-y
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Bosun's chair access
No quotes, as comments on several previous posts...
Climbing (and.or Mountaineering) is a discipline that like many others has taken words from other actrivities and redefined them to mean new things, which are understood by their practioners. Computing is probably the worst example of this!! So, as a climber, "belay" is used in a few ways. As a noun, a belay is a solid anchor point, usally at the top of a climb that the climbing leader ties himself on to. The belay might be a number of devices placed in cracks in the rock, slings (loops of rope or textile tape) looped over rock spikes or previously placed "bolts" (another word redefined to mean devices like large rawlbolts, or resin anchors), etc., etc. Belay is also used as a verb meaning to control the speed of a rope, usually because your partner is tied to the other end of it. This happens both when the leader is climbing, when they *are* simply tied into one end of the rope, but also when the "second" climbs. From the second meaning is derived the name "belay device" which is used to describe a number of mechanical devices which are used to control the speed of a rope. Typically the belay device is attached to the climber's harness with a karabiner. Belay devices include automatic locking ones. On the subject of rope, climbing shops often sell rope from the reel by the metre, so it is possible to obtain shorter lengths, however it's usually more economical to buy pre-cut lengths - they come in standard lengths, commonly from about 30 to 60 metres. Having said that, climbing rope is expensive, because it's designed to meet several demanding (and conflicting) roles: to be as light as possible, to be as strong as possible, to not absorb water, to be nice to handle, to resist abrasion, but most importantly to absorb impacts gradually when a climber falls off. The latter attribute is unlikely to be of importance in the OP's application, and hence makes climbing rope over specified for his use. Graham (A climber :-) ) |
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#25
Posted to uk.d-i-y
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Bosun's chair access
In article
, Tabby writes On Oct 8, 8:49*pm, Tabby wrote: Hi I need to do some work from a bosun's chair, and can't remember the right terminology for the method used to control the rope. Very simple, but cant think of the name of the technique used, also used for asbeiling. Thanks, NT any recommendations on where to get the rope from? A google for "abseil rope" or "static rope" will throw up a bundle. As with anything, cheaper if you buy by the stock length (50, 100 or 200m) but just spotted this one that will do it by the metre (£1.75/m): http://www.rockrun.com/products/Beal...pe-10.5mm.html I happen to use climbing rope for this as I have it anyway but abseil rope is cheaper and suits the purpose better as it has minimal stretch. I wouldn't use anything that's not a certified climbing or abseil rope as the consequences of failure are too great and you want a kernmantle rope as anything else will fankle going through a belay device. Specifically avoid anything labelled as 'accessory cord'. I have no knowledge of bosuns chairs so previously stayed out of the thread but in this sort of situation I use a sticht/stitch plate to control descent and wrap the dead end of the rope round my leg for a prolonged stop. Alternatively you could use a prusik or similar self locking knot to secure the dead side of the rope to a harness. You can use a figure 8 to control the descent but they require more force on the dead side to stop the descent so avoid unless you have one or can borrow. Do not rely on a prusik to control descent or to lock position on a live rope, this is not safe (although I believe that Fred Dibnah probably worked from such using a swing seat type roped chair). Garden hose is the accepted protector for taking the rope over edges. -- fred FIVE TV's superbright logo - not the DOG's, it's ******** |
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#26
Posted to uk.d-i-y
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Bosun's chair access
A google for "abseil rope" or "static rope" will throw up a bundle. As with anything, cheaper if you buy by the stock length (50, 100 or 200m) but just spotted this one that will do it by the metre (£1.75/m): http://www.rockrun.com/products/Beal...pe-10.5mm.html Inglesport do 11m static for £1.45/m (a lot cheaper if you buy a 200m drum). http://www.inglesport.com/shop/catal...ry=SRT%20Ropes but in this sort of situation I use a sticht/stitch plate to control descent and wrap the dead end of the rope round my leg for a prolonged stop. Alternatively you could use a prusik or similar self locking knot to secure the dead side of the rope to a harness. You can use a figure 8 to control the descent but they require more force on the dead side to stop the descent so avoid unless you have one or can borrow. Do not rely on a prusik to control descent or to lock position on a live rope, this is not safe (although I believe that Fred Dibnah probably worked from such using a swing seat type roped chair). For descenders, the standard choice amongst cavers is the Petzl Stop. http://www.inglesport.com/shop/catal...escenders#1024 Not cheap, but it has a certain amount of fail-safe built in (provided you don't grip it tightly in a panic), it doesn't twist the rope and you can detach it from the rope without unclipping it from your harness and risking dropping it. A soft / hard lock is easy to do to hold yourself in position on the rope. -- Alan J. Wylie http://www.wylie.me.uk/ |
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#27
Posted to uk.d-i-y
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Bosun's chair access
We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember GAP saying something like: Graham (A climber :-) ) It's no use. Nobody's going to listen to someone who knows what they're talking about. Too many self-appointed experts who've read a book about it. |
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