I am a keen DIYer but I know my limits, one of these is Plumbing, I am too
afraid to cock it up incase I make a mistake and water leaks everywhere.

I quite fancy going on a course and came across this:

http://www.ableskills.co.uk/

Essentially I am looking at the 4 day course which lasts 2 weekends and
goes over the basis. It costs £350.

1) Anyone been on this course or similar ones

2) Will I come out capable of doing the basics or you really need a lot
longer than 4 days to be able to pick things up?

One of the things I wnat to be able to do is move my basthroom basin, which
would require disconnecting the current pipes, extending them and then
reconnecting them in a new position.

For those that are DIYers but know a fair bit how did you learn?

I might also consider some of the other courses, a lot of money to be saved
on future tradesmen if I learn enough I guess.

On 23/08/2010 20:43, mo wrote:
I am a keen DIYer but I know my limits, one of these is Plumbing, I am too
afraid to cock it up incase I make a mistake and water leaks everywhere.

I quite fancy going on a course and came across this:

http://www.ableskills.co.uk/

Essentially I am looking at the 4 day course which lasts 2 weekends and
goes over the basis. It costs £350.

1) Anyone been on this course or similar ones

2) Will I come out capable of doing the basics or you really need a lot
longer than 4 days to be able to pick things up?

One of the things I wnat to be able to do is move my basthroom basin, which
would require disconnecting the current pipes, extending them and then
reconnecting them in a new position.

For those that are DIYers but know a fair bit how did you learn?

I might also consider some of the other courses, a lot of money to be saved
on future tradesmen if I learn enough I guess.

£350!!! A lot of dosh, but maybe cheaper than a plumber.

I put off doing any plumbing for years due to the same fears - water
everywhere. However, I finally took the plunge :-) a couple of years ago
and it wasn't as hard as I'd feared. My advice is to buy yourself some
good books with clear instructions and pictures of the various jobs. The
other tip - if you plan to use copper pipe and solder is to make sure
the joints are spotlessly clean, no burs etc, polish with wire wool and
use a suitable amount of flux. I just plunged in with plain copper
fittings - not Yorkshire fittings and fitted an entire new bathroom at
first attempt at plumbing. And not a single leak!!!

The cost of educating myself was around £30 in decent plumbing books.

Anything you don't know or understand ask on the forum - there are
plenty of plumbing experts here!


--
David in Normandy.
To e-mail you must include the password FROG on the
subject line, or it will be automatically deleted
by a filter and not reach my inbox.

On 23 Aug, 20:38, David in Normandy
wrote:

The cost of educating myself was around £30 in decent plumbing books.

Anything you don't know or understand ask on the forum - there are
plenty of plumbing experts here!

Agreed.

for the jobs the OP describes I would have thought a general DIY book
would have enough info to make a very good start

Jiim K

On Mon, 23 Aug 2010 12:43:28 -0700 (PDT), Jim K
wrote:

On 23 Aug, 20:38, David in Normandy
wrote:

The cost of educating myself was around £30 in decent plumbing books.

Anything you don't know or understand ask on the forum - there are
plenty of plumbing experts here!

Agreed.

for the jobs the OP describes I would have thought a general DIY book
would have enough info to make a very good start

It all depends on what you expect to achieve. Practical skills such as
bending pipes, fitting and soldering elbows are one thing, and easily
acquired, as others suggest, by buying a handful of bits 'n' pieces
and playing about with them, testing the integrity of your connections
by connecting to a bit of hosepipe i(n the garden!).
The other aspect is designing your plumbing system, i.e. the
"engineering" side, where you may learn from a course or selective
reading of suitable newsgroups such as this one.

--
Frank Erskine

On 24 Aug, 00:06, Frank Erskine wrote:

It all depends on what you expect to achieve. Practical skills such as
bending pipes, fitting and soldering elbows are one thing, and easily
acquired, as others suggest, by buying a handful of bits 'n' pieces
and playing about with them, testing the integrity of your connections
by connecting to a bit of hosepipe i(n the garden!).
The other aspect is designing your plumbing system, i.e. the
"engineering" side, where you may learn from a course or selective
reading of suitable newsgroups such as this one.

OP only wants to move a sink IIRC?

Jim K

mo wrote:

I am a keen DIYer but I know my limits, one of these is Plumbing, I am too
afraid to cock it up incase I make a mistake and water leaks everywhere.

I quite fancy going on a course and came across this:

http://www.ableskills.co.uk/

Essentially I am looking at the 4 day course which lasts 2 weekends and
goes over the basis. It costs �350.

1) Anyone been on this course or similar ones

2) Will I come out capable of doing the basics or you really need a lot
longer than 4 days to be able to pick things up?

One of the things I wnat to be able to do is move my basthroom basin,
which would require disconnecting the current pipes, extending them and
then reconnecting them in a new position.

For those that are DIYers but know a fair bit how did you learn?

I might also consider some of the other courses, a lot of money to be
saved on future tradesmen if I learn enough I guess.

It is a noble cause and the price is average for that that sort of thing.

You'll get more out of it if you practice in some spare parts first, on the
kitchen table[1]. Then you can raise problems with the instructor even if
it's something not normally covered by the course. Also, make sure the
course covers what you want to do - eg if you want to plumb copper, no point
if the course is all push-fit plastic.

Waste is usually plastic these days (olden days it could be lead, iron, or
copper). Water is plastic (JG Speedfit or Polyplumb are two major and
incompatible system) and copper, with either solder, compression or pushfit
(plastic eg Speedfit or copper eg Cuprofit). It's worth deciding what you
want to go with.

Copper done nicely will last a very long time. But plastic is pretty good
and incredibly simple and conducive to easy and quick work and the
flexibility allows you to get away with more compared to copper.

If you can, get a few bits and bobs like bath u trap, tap connectors or
flexi tails, bits of pipe, as you think you might use on the real job and
have ago dry fitting them to get familiarity with the basic components.

If you really are a novice, borrow a Reader's Digest DIY book from the
library - loads of piccies of the main operations and stuff.

HTH

Tim

--
Tim Watts

Tim Watts wrote:


Waste is usually plastic these days (olden days it could be lead, iron, or
copper).

I meant to mention that there are two waste systems: solvent weld which is
fairly easy and bomb proof if done right, and push fit and they aren't
compatible (pipe is a slightly different size).

And there is another subsystem based on compression plastic fittings that
work with either pipe and even if you don't use that primarily, you will
meet it on things like u traps.

--
Tim Watts

Tim Watts wrote:
Tim Watts wrote:


Waste is usually plastic these days (olden days it could be lead,
iron, or copper).

I meant to mention that there are two waste systems: solvent weld
which is fairly easy and bomb proof if done right, and push fit and
they aren't compatible (pipe is a slightly different size).

And there is another subsystem based on compression plastic fittings
that work with either pipe and even if you don't use that primarily,
you will meet it on things like u traps.

I'm waiting to see what you are not allowed to do on the kitchen table eg
[1]
--
Adam

mo brought next idea :
For those that are DIYers but know a fair bit how did you learn?

By simple doing it!


I might also consider some of the other courses, a lot of money to be saved
on future tradesmen if I learn enough I guess.

Buy some pipe, some fittings and the tools - then simply have a go,
just make sure pipe and fittings are clean before you start.

--
Regards,
Harry (M1BYT) (L)
http://www.ukradioamateur.co.uk

On Mon, 23 Aug 2010 13:43:33 -0500, mo wrote:

For those that are DIYers but know a fair bit how did you learn?

Just dived in... However I had watched my Dad do plumbing and had
been building electronics since the age of 10 or so, so knew the
theory and practice of soldering, it just needed to be scaled up.

Soldering is a skill and with all skills it needs practice, but it's
not difficult. £350 buys a lot of fittings and tube to practice with,
practice that you will need wether you go on the course or not.

Google for the many How To's that are out there, read a few, that
will give you the basic procedures. Then practice, so you get a feel
for how long you need to play the blowlamp on the fitting and pipe
before it will be hot enough, how much solder you need to feed in,
how long the joint needs to be kept still whilst it cools etc.

--
Cheers
Dave.

Google for the many How To's that are out there, read a few, that
will give you the basic procedures. Then practice, so you get a feel
for how long you need to play the blowlamp on the fitting and pipe
before it will be hot enough, how much solder you need to feed in,
how long the joint needs to be kept still whilst it cools etc.

--
Cheers
Dave.


I've been using blowlamps for soldering since I was a kid (when they used
paraffin with meths for starting). But one modern tool which isn't too
expensive and might save you some grief if you have much soldering to do in
tight spaces is the electric clamp-on type heater. Never used one myself,
what do others think?

As others say, cleaning and preparation is the key for soldering, plus
practice. And plastic is pretty easy provided no-one has to see it, as long
as you remember the inserts and make sure you have full engagement. For
copper, the other tool which saves time and money, and makes for a much
neater job when it is done well, is a pipe bender. It helps if you have good
"feel" and are good at visualising 3d problems. Oh, and get yourself a BES
catalogue. There are all sorts of neat "crossover" fittings that let you
tuck your pipes away neatly. Much wider stock than you will find in sheds
and even some plumbing merchants, good prices and delivery. Always order a
few more bits than you think you will need.

One other thing. Start by fitting the pipes to the taps, then join in to an
existing run some way away even though it means an extra coupling. There is
nothing more frustrating than calculating, measuring, cutting, and
assembling and then finding your tap fitting doesn't quite align with the
tap. There are more ways than you might think to get it wrong (up to six, in
fact)!

newshound wrote:
One other thing. Start by fitting the pipes to the taps, then join in
to an existing run some way away even though it means an extra
coupling. There is nothing more frustrating than calculating,
measuring, cutting, and assembling and then finding your tap fitting
doesn't quite align with the tap. There are more ways than you might
think to get it wrong (up to six, in fact)!

Or just use a flexible tap connector. About £1 from Toolstation.


--
Dave - The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk

In message mfDco.109983$KP3.40735@hurricane, The Medway Handyman
writes
newshound wrote:
One other thing. Start by fitting the pipes to the taps, then join in
to an existing run some way away even though it means an extra
coupling. There is nothing more frustrating than calculating,
measuring, cutting, and assembling and then finding your tap fitting
doesn't quite align with the tap. There are more ways than you might
think to get it wrong (up to six, in fact)!

Or just use a flexible tap connector. About £1 from Toolstation.

MMMMMMmmmmmmmmm
When I first moved into my current home I thought about those. They
even had a 10 year guarantee. I've been here 15 years now, glad I went
for copper all the way to the taps, it hasn't leaked yet.



--
Bill

Bill wrote:
In message mfDco.109983$KP3.40735@hurricane, The Medway Handyman
writes
newshound wrote:
One other thing. Start by fitting the pipes to the taps, then join
in to an existing run some way away even though it means an extra
coupling. There is nothing more frustrating than calculating,
measuring, cutting, and assembling and then finding your tap fitting
doesn't quite align with the tap. There are more ways than you might
think to get it wrong (up to six, in fact)!

Or just use a flexible tap connector. About £1 from Toolstation.

MMMMMMmmmmmmmmm
When I first moved into my current home I thought about those. They
even had a 10 year guarantee. I've been here 15 years now, glad I
went for copper all the way to the taps, it hasn't leaked yet.

I'd say that the biggest cause of leaks/drips is that the pipe & thread are
not perfectly aligned, especially with the inlet to a ball valve on a
cistern. Forcing pipes into alignment to get the threads engaged is almost
guaranteed to drip.

On a comercial basis of course they save so much time as well.


--
Dave - The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk

On Tue, 24 Aug 2010 00:48:33 +0100, Bill wrote:

Or just use a flexible tap connector. About £1 from Toolstation.

MMMMMMmmmmmmmmm
When I first moved into my current home I thought about those. They
even had a 10 year guarantee. I've been here 15 years now, glad I went
for copper all the way to the taps, it hasn't leaked yet.

What has that got to do with the price of eggs. How do you know that
a flexible tap connector would have failed?

I have used a few over the years and have yet to have one fail.

--
Cheers
Dave.

In article mfDco.109983$KP3.40735@hurricane,
The Medway Handyman wrote:
newshound wrote:
One other thing. Start by fitting the pipes to the taps, then join in
to an existing run some way away even though it means an extra
coupling. There is nothing more frustrating than calculating,
measuring, cutting, and assembling and then finding your tap fitting
doesn't quite align with the tap. There are more ways than you might
think to get it wrong (up to six, in fact)!

Or just use a flexible tap connector. About £1 from Toolstation.

Fine if the taps are solidly mounted. On many SS sinks they aren't. A
copper pipe to the tap helps enormously.

--
*Eat well, stay fit, die anyway

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"The Medway Handyman" wrote in message
news:mfDco.109983$KP3.40735@hurricane...
newshound wrote:
One other thing. Start by fitting the pipes to the taps, then join in
to an existing run some way away even though it means an extra
coupling. There is nothing more frustrating than calculating,
measuring, cutting, and assembling and then finding your tap fitting
doesn't quite align with the tap. There are more ways than you might
think to get it wrong (up to six, in fact)!

Or just use a flexible tap connector. About £1 from Toolstation.


--
Dave - The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk


CHEATING!

(but I agree really. And definitely worth it in some cases, e.g. where you
have to plumb in a kitchen sink or, especially, a bath away from the wall
and then move it back into position because of access constraints)

:-)

In article ,
newshound wrote:
But one modern tool which isn't too expensive and might save you some
grief if you have much soldering to do in tight spaces is the electric
clamp-on type heater. Never used one myself, what do others think?

Absolute waste of time, money and space. ;-)

--
*Always borrow money from pessimists - they don't expect it back *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 23 Aug, 23:59, "newshound" wrote:

one modern tool which isn't too
expensive and might save you some grief if you have much soldering to do in
tight spaces is the electric clamp-on type heater. Never used one myself,
what do others think?

They're great if you have to make one (maybe two) solder-ring
connection, on clean pipe, in a cupboard full of firelighters and
dynamite.

Otherwise they take an age to heat up, and they've got just enough
oomph for one well-behaved connection before you're waiting for them
to get back up to temperature.

They do reduce fire risk though. Last time I used one was on a pipe
embedded in sheeps' wool insulation (posh hippy house). It wasn't a
good idea to put a flame near that stuff, even when we'd been building
it, certainly not after it was decorated, sparkling and fragrant.

On 24 Aug, 09:17, Andy Dingley wrote:

They do reduce fire risk though. Last time I used one was on a pipe
embedded in sheeps' wool insulation (posh hippy house). It wasn't a
good idea to put a flame near that stuff,

snip

"It does not burn, but instead singes away from fire and extinguishes
itself (Wool has a very high inflammation point of 560°C due to its
high Nitrogen content of ~16%) Wool is self extinguishing because of
its high Limiting Oxygen Index (LOI=25.2), which means to completely
burn wool an oxygen content of 25.2% is necessary whereas air only has
21%"

http://uk.sheepwoolinsulation.com/why_wool/

Jim K

On 24 Aug, 10:27, Jim K wrote:
On 24 Aug, 09:17, Andy Dingley wrote:

They do reduce fire risk though. Last time I used one was on a pipe
embedded in sheeps' wool insulation (posh hippy house). It wasn't a
good idea to put a flame near that stuff,

snip

"It does not burn, but instead singes away from fire and extinguishes
itself

Yes indeed.

And have you smelled it while it's doing that?

"Jim K" wrote in message
...
On 24 Aug, 09:17, Andy Dingley wrote:

They do reduce fire risk though. Last time I used one was on a pipe
embedded in sheeps' wool insulation (posh hippy house). It wasn't a
good idea to put a flame near that stuff,

snip

"It does not burn, but instead singes away from fire and extinguishes
itself (Wool has a very high inflammation point of 560°C due to its
high Nitrogen content of ~16%) Wool is self extinguishing because of
its high Limiting Oxygen Index (LOI=25.2), which means to completely
burn wool an oxygen content of 25.2% is necessary whereas air only has
21%"

http://uk.sheepwoolinsulation.com/why_wool/

Jim K

Ah yes, but the hippy house would have had proper organic wool, full of
lanolin.....

On 24 Aug, 09:17, Andy Dingley wrote:
On 23 Aug, 23:59, "newshound" wrote:

one modern tool which isn't too
expensive and might save you some grief if you have much soldering to do in
tight spaces is the electric clamp-on type heater. Never used one myself,
what do others think?

They're great if you have to make one (maybe two) solder-ring
connection, on clean pipe, in a cupboard full of firelighters and
dynamite.

Otherwise they take an age to heat up, and they've got just enough
oomph for one well-behaved connection before you're waiting for them
to get back up to temperature.

They do reduce fire risk though. Last time I used one was on a pipe
embedded in sheeps' wool insulation (posh hippy house). It wasn't a
good idea to put a flame near that stuff, even when we'd been building
it, certainly not after it was decorated, sparkling and fragrant.

Never tried one - but that's what I'd heard too.

However I recently bought a Rothenberger SureFire2 blowtorch. Uses MAP-
Pro gas rather the propane or butane.

If you're going to do more than a little bit of copper pipework, doing
28mm pipes, or reworking wet pipework - then a professional torch
makes a *world* of difference in terms of easily making quality
soldered joints.

mo wrote:
I am a keen DIYer but I know my limits, one of these is Plumbing, I
am too afraid to cock it up incase I make a mistake and water leaks
everywhere.

I quite fancy going on a course and came across this:

http://www.ableskills.co.uk/

Essentially I am looking at the 4 day course which lasts 2 weekends
and goes over the basis. It costs £350.

I have a cunning plan to open a DIY school one day & run very basic, but
hands on courses in basic plumbing, carpentry, fixing stuff to walls etc.

Books & the interweb are great, but practical hands on is much better at
suppling that vital part - confidence.


--
Dave - The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk

In article ,
mo wrote:
One of the things I wnat to be able to do is move my basthroom basin,
which would require disconnecting the current pipes, extending them and
then reconnecting them in a new position.

For those that are DIYers but know a fair bit how did you learn?

It's one of those skills that require many. Like accurate measuring when
cutting or bending pipes, etc. Soldering. Having a 'feel' for screwing
things together. Knowing how to fix to walls. General carpentry. And so on.

If you already have all those, the specifics could be gleaned from a
decent book. Of course designing your own heating system would take more
research. ;-)

I'm very glad I was keen on Meccano as a kid.

--
*Succeed, in spite of management *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Aug 23, 7:43*pm, mo wrote:
I am a keen DIYer but I know my limits, one of these is Plumbing, I am too
afraid to cock it up incase I make a mistake and water leaks everywhere.

I quite fancy going on a course and came across this:

http://www.ableskills.co.uk/

Essentially I am looking at the 4 day course which lasts 2 weekends and
goes over the basis. It costs £350.

1) Anyone been on this course or similar ones

2) Will I come out capable of doing the basics or you really need a lot
longer than 4 days to be able to pick things up?

One of the things I wnat to be able to do is move my basthroom basin, which
would require disconnecting the current pipes, extending them and then
reconnecting them in a new position.

For those that are DIYers but know a fair bit how did you learn?

I might also consider some of the other courses, a lot of money to be saved
on future tradesmen if I learn enough I guess.


I wouldnt waste the money or time. Whatever you need to know is
available free online, and to get some practice you just need a few
tools and fittings, which cost a fraction of that. Plumbing sinks etc
is fairly basic. The issue with plumbing imho is unexpected issues
along the way, that add time and curses to sort out.


NT

mo wrote:
I am a keen DIYer but I know my limits, one of these is Plumbing, I am too
afraid to cock it up incase I make a mistake and water leaks everywhere.

I quite fancy going on a course and came across this:

http://www.ableskills.co.uk/

Essentially I am looking at the 4 day course which lasts 2 weekends and
goes over the basis. It costs £350.

FWIW I did an electrical course there last year, C&G 2377.

Able is a well set up establishment with loads of trades (or wannabe
trades) people getting their training and certs; all different
nationalities as well, particulary the eastern europeans workers getting
proper UK qualifications for their trades. Friendly atmosphere.

My course was just 2 days and mostly paperwork, but the other courses I
could see going on had a lot of practical content - ye had to certainly
walk about the site with safety boots, but luckily I saw no ambulance... :-)

--
Adrian C

On 23 Aug, 19:43, mo wrote:
I am a keen DIYer but I know my limits, one of these is Plumbing, I am too
afraid to cock it up incase I make a mistake and water leaks everywhere.

IMHO, there are two sorts of plumbing:

* New installations. The components are new, the right size, the same
size and they go together without problems. They also arrive empty and
dry, so you don't have to add water until the work is finished.

* Repairs. Some time in the late Victorian / Eocene, some cack-handed
badger installed the wrong part, upside down, and soldered it to a
piece of lead left over from the Romans. Then they built a wall in
front of it to make access even worse. It's already leaking, so you
_must_ fix it now. It would be easy to do so, except that the
component you need is only available from a plumber's merchant 20
miles away, which in 5 minutes time will close to celebrate Kwanzaa
for the next week. One piece of pipe is sized in cubits rather than
mm, and plumbers all swear that such a component has never been made
in such a size, or with the necessary connecting part - despite their
shelves being full of them (the piece you already have, not the one
you need). When you've finally installed the three new pieces you
needed to get them to work together instead of just the one that was
actually broken, you discover that your pushing and pulling on the
pipe has then caused something else six feet away to start dribbling.


If you want a really good read on the theory and detail of plumbing
(i.e. which bits to use and how to install them), Treloar's "Plumbing"
is a great NVQ-level textbook. Obviously the hand skills will then
need some actual hands-on time.

If you want a really good read on the theory and detail of plumbing
(i.e. which bits to use and how to install them), Treloar's "Plumbing"
is a great NVQ-level textbook. Obviously the hand skills will then
need some actual hands-on time.

Treloar - excellent.

In article ,
mo writes:
I am a keen DIYer but I know my limits, one of these is Plumbing, I am too
afraid to cock it up incase I make a mistake and water leaks everywhere.

I quite fancy going on a course and came across this:

http://www.ableskills.co.uk/

Essentially I am looking at the 4 day course which lasts 2 weekends and
goes over the basis. It costs £350.

Search out your local building trades college and compare prices.
This is vastly more than my local one used to be, but it may be
they are no longer subsidised like they used to be.

1) Anyone been on this course or similar ones

2) Will I come out capable of doing the basics or you really need a lot
longer than 4 days to be able to pick things up?

One of the things I wnat to be able to do is move my basthroom basin, which
would require disconnecting the current pipes, extending them and then
reconnecting them in a new position.

For those that are DIYers but know a fair bit how did you learn?

Watched my dad initially. Was quickly on to things like descaling
ballcocks and even servicing the cast iron gas boiler (brushing
off the soot, cleaning all the burner jets, etc. as a teenager.
I can't recall for sure, but I think I did some basic plumbing too.
For soldering, I was already compitent at electrical soldering (self
taught), and transfering that skill to plumbing is not a big step.
I recall firing up dad's parrafin blowlamp on several occasions for
soldering, but I can't recall exactly what I was soldering with it.

Actually, one thing I recall - I made up a new exhaust pipe for
the lawn mower with soldered copper pipe when the original one
rusted into a pile a dust. Looked really good. About 30 seconds
after starting the mower, all the soldered joints melted apart.
Still, that's how you learn things...

I might also consider some of the other courses, a lot of money to be saved
on future tradesmen if I learn enough I guess.

Two courses I did because I wanted the skills myself and had no
one to teach me were plastering and bricklaying. Each was 2 or 3
days, and well taught. I've also done electrical courses and got a
couple of C&G, but in that case I already knew most of the material;
it was a question of getting the certificate to make me happier about
doing electrical work at work, and work paid for the courses (after
which I designed and installed a computer room, amongst other things).

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

On 2010-08-23 19:43:33 +0100, mo said:

For those that are DIYers but know a fair bit how did you learn?

I wouldn't claim to know a fair bit of plumbing, but rather a bit. I
got started when I essentially apprenticed for a family friend who
replaced the old boiler in a previous house with a combi converting the
whole house to mains pressure at the same time. That taught me the
basics like soldering, checking for gas leaks, etc. From them I've
just read up, both on usenet/forums and from books and got stuck in.