Following on from last week's discussions about how companies ship their
orders, I have today ordered another quantity of small parts from Farnell,
and once again, like last week, they are coming by Royal Mail rather than
UPS. Have we got a lurker on here, who works for them, and has actually
taken some notice of what was being said about choosing the most appropriate
packaging and shipper for each order ?

Just as an amusing side on the same subject, I have just ordered an item
direct from China. The email that I got from them today regarding shipping,
has a lovely charm springing directly from its author's limited command of
the English language. Here it is to cheer up everyone's day ... :-)


Your product was sent to shipping agent to make line in customs to go out of
china.
Your tracking number is **************
Remember this product make customs in your country
before getting into your hands, and the time in that procedure is unknown by
me.
And my calculations are based on experience before with other customers.
and you can track in www.dhl.com in about 2 to 3 business days.
The package will be in your hands in 6 to 10 business days after the product
is out of china.
NOTE: PLEASE REMEMBER WE SHIP BUT YOU NEED TO TRACK AND MAKE SURE INSIDE
YOUR COUNTRY
THE PACKAGE DO NOT GET DELAYS OR IS SENT BACK TO US, ANY RESHIPPING COST IS
ASSUMED BY THE CUSTOMER
Thank you so much


Sweet, eh ? Reminds me of one many years ago when I had to install an early
12v Jap transistor PA amp onto a Rotary Club Float for the local carnival
parade. In the instruction book was a totally random sort of 'cartoon'
drawing of an American - style cop on a Harley. Underneath, the caption read
"Policemen on white motorcycles use our equipment" ...

Arfa

In article qvr1o.304107$w51.132473@hurricane,
Arfa Daily wrote:
Following on from last week's discussions about how companies ship their
orders, I have today ordered another quantity of small parts from
Farnell, and once again, like last week, they are coming by Royal Mail
rather than UPS. Have we got a lurker on here, who works for them, and
has actually taken some notice of what was being said about choosing
the most appropriate packaging and shipper for each order ?

My choice living in London would be anything small enough to be delivered
by the postman is sent by Royal Mail since I know when to expect him.
Anything too large by *anyone* other than Parcel Farce. I can't understand
how two companies under the same sort of umbrella can be so different.

--
*My designated driver drove me to drink

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 21/07/2010 08:56, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In articleqvr1o.304107$w51.132473@hurricane,
Arfa wrote:

Following on from last week's discussions about how companies ship their
orders, I have today ordered another quantity of small parts from
Farnell, and once again, like last week, they are coming by Royal Mail
rather than UPS. Have we got a lurker on here, who works for them, and
has actually taken some notice of what was being said about choosing
the most appropriate packaging and shipper for each order ?

My choice living in London would be anything small enough to be delivered
by the postman is sent by Royal Mail since I know when to expect him.
Anything too large by *anyone* other than Parcel Farce. I can't understand
how two companies under the same sort of umbrella can be so different.


It must be a London thing.
I prefer Parcel Force, they always arrive around 8am, postman arrives
between 10: 30 to 11: 30.
Other carriers arrive anytime between 11:00 - 16:00, bit of a pain
having to be in earshot of the door bell all day.
I live in south Beds.

--
Corporal Jones
"Don't panic don't panic"
Life will go on albeit somewhat reduced

On Jul 21, 1:50*am, "Arfa Daily" wrote:
Following on from last week's discussions about how companies ship their
orders, I have today ordered another quantity of small parts from Farnell,
and once again, like last week, they are coming by Royal Mail rather than
UPS.

Why not just ask them what their policy is?

MBQ

On 21 July, 10:38, "Man at B&Q" wrote:
On Jul 21, 1:50 am, "Arfa Daily" wrote:

Following on from last week's discussions about how companies ship their
orders, I have today ordered another quantity of small parts from Farnell,
and once again, like last week, they are coming by Royal Mail rather than
UPS.

Why not just ask them what their policy is?

"whim du jour" ?

Jim K

On 21 July, 10:38, "Man at B&Q" wrote:
On Jul 21, 1:50 am, "Arfa Daily" wrote:

Following on from last week's discussions about how companies ship their
orders, I have today ordered another quantity of small parts from Farnell,
and once again, like last week, they are coming by Royal Mail rather than
UPS.

Why not just ask them what their policy is?

"whim du jour"?

Jim K

On Jul 21, 11:11*am, Jim K wrote:
On 21 July, 10:38, "Man at B&Q" wrote:

On Jul 21, 1:50 am, "Arfa Daily" wrote:

Following on from last week's discussions about how companies ship their
orders, I have today ordered another quantity of small parts from Farnell,
and once again, like last week, they are coming by Royal Mail rather than
UPS.

Why not just ask them what their policy is?

"whim du jour" ?

I got a perfectly understandable answer form Rapid when I asked the
same question.

MBQ

In message , "Dave Plowman (News)"
writes

My choice living in London would be anything small enough to be delivered
by the postman is sent by Royal Mail since I know when to expect him.
Anything too large by *anyone* other than Parcel Farce. I can't understand
how two companies under the same sort of umbrella can be so different.

Two parcels were posted to me, on Monday. One RM first class, no
guarantees, the other PF24, guaranteed next day delivery. Needless to
say, the first class item arrived early Tuesday morning, but the PF
parcel did not arrive until today (Wednesday).
--
Graeme

On 21/07/2010 01:50, Arfa Daily wrote:

The package will be in your hands in 6 to 10 business days after the
product is out of china.
NOTE: PLEASE REMEMBER WE SHIP BUT YOU NEED TO TRACK AND MAKE SURE INSIDE
YOUR COUNTRY
THE PACKAGE DO NOT GET DELAYS OR IS SENT BACK TO US, ANY RESHIPPING COST
IS ASSUMED BY THE CUSTOMER
Thank you so much

Ye can blame the Italians for that stance ...

http://forums.ebay.com/db2/topic/International-Trading/Italy-Worst-Country/1000444726

--
Adrian C

"Arfa Daily" wrote in message
news:qvr1o.304107$w51.132473@hurricane...
Following on from last week's discussions about how companies ship their
orders, I have today ordered another quantity of small parts from Farnell,
and once again, like last week, they are coming by Royal Mail rather than
UPS. Have we got a lurker on here, who works for them, and has actually
taken some notice of what was being said about choosing the most
appropriate packaging and shipper for each order ?

Just as an amusing side on the same subject, I have just ordered an item
direct from China. The email that I got from them today regarding
shipping, has a lovely charm springing directly from its author's limited
command of the English language. Here it is to cheer up everyone's day ...
:-)


Your product was sent to shipping agent to make line in customs to go out
of china.
Your tracking number is **************
Remember this product make customs in your country
before getting into your hands, and the time in that procedure is unknown
by me.
And my calculations are based on experience before with other customers.
and you can track in www.dhl.com in about 2 to 3 business days.
The package will be in your hands in 6 to 10 business days after the
product is out of china.
NOTE: PLEASE REMEMBER WE SHIP BUT YOU NEED TO TRACK AND MAKE SURE INSIDE
YOUR COUNTRY
THE PACKAGE DO NOT GET DELAYS OR IS SENT BACK TO US, ANY RESHIPPING COST
IS ASSUMED BY THE CUSTOMER
Thank you so much


Sweet, eh ? Reminds me of one many years ago when I had to install an
early 12v Jap transistor PA amp onto a Rotary Club Float for the local
carnival parade. In the instruction book was a totally random sort of
'cartoon' drawing of an American - style cop on a Harley. Underneath, the
caption read "Policemen on white motorcycles use our equipment" ...


I once had a moped built by Steyr-Daimler-Puch. The handbook had many
oddities in translation but my favourite was the section on "Lubrifying the
vehicle".
--
Tinkerer

"Jim K" wrote in message
...
On 21 July, 10:38, "Man at B&Q" wrote:
On Jul 21, 1:50 am, "Arfa Daily" wrote:

Following on from last week's discussions about how companies ship
their
orders, I have today ordered another quantity of small parts from
Farnell,
and once again, like last week, they are coming by Royal Mail rather
than
UPS.

Why not just ask them what their policy is?

"whim du jour"?

Very nice with chips and a fried egg.

On 7/21/2010 9:44 AM, Tinkerer wrote:

I once had a moped built by Steyr-Daimler-Puch. The handbook had many
oddities in translation but my favourite was the section on "Lubrifying the
vehicle".

Many years ago, my mother had a Pfaff sewing machine, which came with an
English-language manual. When I serviced it for her, I found the
'English' text less than useless, and had to use the German version instead.

On Wed, 21 Jul 2010 10:03:53 +0100, Corporal Jones wrote:

It must be a London thing.

Naw a "just where you are thing".

I prefer Parcel Force, they always arrive around 8am,

Late afternoon for us.

postman arrives between 10: 30 to 11: 30.

0830 to 0930 but we are near the start of the round. I see "our"
postman doing the end of the round right up to 1300.

Other carriers arrive anytime between 11:00 - 16:00ish,

1000 to 1600 but each will normally arrive within an hour window in
that period. So City Link will deliver 1500-1600, UPS nearer 1400,
DHL after 1600. We also tend to see the same drivers.

--
Cheers
Dave.

"Dave Liquorice" wrote in message
ll.co.uk...
On Wed, 21 Jul 2010 10:03:53 +0100, Corporal Jones wrote:

It must be a London thing.

Naw a "just where you are thing".

I prefer Parcel Force, they always arrive around 8am,

Late afternoon for us.

postman arrives between 10: 30 to 11: 30.

0830 to 0930 but we are near the start of the round. I see "our"
postman doing the end of the round right up to 1300.

Other carriers arrive anytime between 11:00 - 16:00ish,

1000 to 1600 but each will normally arrive within an hour window in
that period. So City Link will deliver 1500-1600, UPS nearer 1400,
DHL after 1600. We also tend to see the same drivers.

--
Cheers
Dave.



You are lucky then. The same UPS driver seldom calls twice to me, and at any
time from about 8:30am to 5:30pm. I once asked one why the time was always
different and he told me that they varied the routes "for security mate". I
don't know whether that's true, or whether it's just that being a different
driver each time, they all have their preferences as to which way to drive
around their area for the day. Or maybe it's a depot manager thing ?
Whatever the reason, it's frustrating not knowing when an order will arrive
within a 9 hour timeframe ...

Arfa

In message , S Viemeister
writes
On 7/21/2010 9:44 AM, Tinkerer wrote:

I once had a moped built by Steyr-Daimler-Puch. The handbook had many
oddities in translation but my favourite was the section on "Lubrifying the
vehicle".

Many years ago, my mother had a Pfaff sewing machine, which came with
an English-language manual. When I serviced it for her, I found the
'English' text less than useless, and had to use the German version
instead.

It happens with other languages too.

SWMBO translates from English into Dutch, her native language. Mainly
technical stuff (with me as a backup as I translate NL-EN). The
reference material sent by the end customer is often poor. Translated by
a native speaker, but one who has no idea about how machines work or
what the parts are called (in either language).

As for the 'English' source material, that is frequently unintelligible.
She once had to refuse a job for a Korean company because the document
was absolute nonsense.
--
Peter

Ying tong iddle-i po!

Arfa Daily wrote:

Following on from last week's discussions about how companies ship their
orders, I have today ordered another quantity of small parts from Farnell,
and once again, like last week, they are coming by Royal Mail rather than
UPS. Have we got a lurker on here, who works for them, and has actually
taken some notice of what was being said about choosing the most appropriate
packaging and shipper for each order ?

Dunno, but if there is a secret Farnell lurker, thanks to the team at
Farnell who shipped the wrong part to me a couple of weeks ago.
Genuinely not their fault - it had the wrong label applied to it and
they clearly pick by barcode.

I called Farnell to explain the problem and asked for a replied-paid bag
to ship the wrong bit back with and to replace the part when they could
get the stock sorted out. No quibble, part received next day.

Umm and if anyone from Farnell wants the wrong part it's still here in
the bag.

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

In article qvr1o.304107$w51.132473@hurricane,
Arfa Daily wrote:
Following on from last week's discussions about how companies ship their
orders, I have today ordered another quantity of small parts from
Farnell, and once again, like last week, they are coming by Royal Mail
rather than UPS. Have we got a lurker on here, who works for them, and
has actually taken some notice of what was being said about choosing
the most appropriate packaging and shipper for each order ?

My choice living in London would be anything small enough to be delivered
by the postman is sent by Royal Mail since I know when to expect him.
Anything too large by *anyone* other than Parcel Farce. I can't understand
how two companies under the same sort of umbrella can be so different.

Or even in different areas. Parcel Force are the only competent service
other than the postman in these parts. With one exception, deliveries
from the USA that are subject to excise and VAT. Parcel Force deliver
these, and demand VAT/Excise before handing the item over. When I aske
for a VAT receipt for the VAT paid, they refuse claiming PF are not VAT
registered therefore can't charge VAT. "Fine" I say "give me back the
VAT I just paid you."

This never works.

"Steve Firth" wrote in message
...
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

In article qvr1o.304107$w51.132473@hurricane,
Arfa Daily wrote:
Following on from last week's discussions about how companies ship
their
orders, I have today ordered another quantity of small parts from
Farnell, and once again, like last week, they are coming by Royal Mail
rather than UPS. Have we got a lurker on here, who works for them, and
has actually taken some notice of what was being said about choosing
the most appropriate packaging and shipper for each order ?

My choice living in London would be anything small enough to be delivered
by the postman is sent by Royal Mail since I know when to expect him.
Anything too large by *anyone* other than Parcel Farce. I can't
understand
how two companies under the same sort of umbrella can be so different.

Or even in different areas. Parcel Force are the only competent service
other than the postman in these parts. With one exception, deliveries
from the USA that are subject to excise and VAT. Parcel Force deliver
these, and demand VAT/Excise before handing the item over. When I aske
for a VAT receipt for the VAT paid, they refuse claiming PF are not VAT
registered therefore can't charge VAT. "Fine" I say "give me back the
VAT I just paid you."

This never works.

That is because PF are only claiming from you money that they have already
paid out on your behalf. The actual recipient of the money is the
Customs. As far as PF are concerned it is no different to any other COD
parcel and the label on the parcel (plus I suppose the parcel itself) is the
only receipt you will get. I know this because I wrote the original
computer application for dealing with these parcels.
--
Tinkerer

On Jul 22, 12:55*am, (Steve Firth) wrote:
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

In article qvr1o.304107$w51.132473@hurricane,
* *Arfa Daily wrote:
Following on from last week's discussions about how companies ship their
orders, I have today ordered another quantity of small parts from
Farnell, and once again, like last week, they are coming by Royal Mail
rather than UPS. Have we got a lurker on here, who works for them, and
has actually taken some notice of what was being said about choosing
the most appropriate packaging and shipper for each order ?

My choice living in London would be anything small enough to be delivered
by the postman is sent by Royal Mail since I know when to expect him.
Anything too large by *anyone* other than Parcel Farce. I can't understand
how two companies under the same sort of umbrella can be so different.

Or even in different areas. Parcel Force are the only competent service
other than the postman in these parts. With one exception, deliveries
from the USA that are subject to excise and VAT. Parcel Force deliver
these, and demand VAT/Excise before handing the item over. When I aske

It's worse than that. They used to take payment at the point of
delivery but now the goods are held at the depot until you have paid.

I have successfully had International express post charges refunded
(best part of £100) because the system simply doesn't allow them to
meet their stated 24 or 48hr service once the goods have cleared
customs.

for a VAT receipt for the VAT paid, they refuse claiming PF are not VAT
registered therefore can't charge VAT. "Fine" I say "give me back the
VAT I just paid you."

This never works.

They are collecting the VAT due on the goods. They are not charging
VAT for their services.

MBQ

Tinkerer wrote:

I know this because I wrote the original
computer application for dealing with these parcels.

Then die, die, die....

Because you should have written in the bit that hands out a receipt for
the payment received.

"Steve Firth" wrote in message
.. .
Tinkerer wrote:

I know this because I wrote the original
computer application for dealing with these parcels.

Then die, die, die....

Because you should have written in the bit that hands out a receipt for
the payment received.

As explained elsewhere, the payment you give is simply reimbursing PF for
money they have already spent on your behalf. Your gripe should be with HM
Customs who collect the VAT and only issue the label you find affixed to the
parcel (they attach it before PF receive the parcel). Perhaps you should
approach HMC and see whether they have provision for issuing subsequent VAT
receipts. They may well have. PF are indeed a non VAT company and cannot
charge VAT or give VAT receipts - that's how the law is.
--
Tinkerer

Tinkerer wrote:

As explained elsewhere

Is there somewhere that you went to to learn how to be a tedious
straight man?

I know how VAT works, I know for Parcel Farce work. I simply beleive
that if Parcel Farce act as an agent they damn well give out receipts.

And possibly employ something other than monkeys.

"Steve Firth" wrote in message
. ..
Tinkerer wrote:

As explained elsewhere

Is there somewhere that you went to to learn how to be a tedious
straight man?

I know how VAT works, I know for Parcel Farce work. I simply beleive
that if Parcel Farce act as an agent they damn well give out receipts.

And possibly employ something other than monkeys.

Like I said. The law does not permit them to and they are not acting as
agents for Customs but for the sender, who will already have sent any
receipts due for their part of the transaction. You asked, I have
answered. I assumed that your question was serious, not facetious, hence
the "straight" reply.
--
Tinkerer

"Tinkerer" wrote in message
...

"Steve Firth" wrote in message
. ..
Tinkerer wrote:

As explained elsewhere

Is there somewhere that you went to to learn how to be a tedious
straight man?

I know how VAT works, I know for Parcel Farce work. I simply beleive
that if Parcel Farce act as an agent they damn well give out receipts.

And possibly employ something other than monkeys.

Like I said. The law does not permit them to and they are not acting as
agents for Customs but for the sender, who will already have sent any
receipts due for their part of the transaction. You asked, I have
answered. I assumed that your question was serious, not facetious, hence
the "straight" reply.
--
Tinkerer


What you say about the law is very probably true, but I take Steve's point,
that this does not make it right. If I hand over money to anyone who is
themselves a business operator, or represents one, then I reasonably expect
to be able to have a receipt for that money. If I ask for a VAT receipt in a
garage, I don't expect the till operator to tell me that VAT has got nothing
to do with them, and that I can only have a receipt for the actual fuel that
I've bought. If an item has been ordered from abroad - ie from say China or
the U.S. then VAT will not have been charged on it in the original
transaction that has been carried out between the seller and buyer, so there
will not have been any invoice which includes that additional charge. As to
whether VAT - and import duty for that matter - *gets* charged, is down to
whether customs pick up on the item, and decide to charge VAT or duty. I
used to purchase some semiconductors from a U.S. company, and used to buy
300 quids-worth at a time. Import duty was always charged on these, but not
VAT, because they were parts, and not finished goods. But the duty was
collected by UPS when they delivered to my door, and they *were* acting on
behalf of HMRC, and a UPS receipt for the money collected, was always issued
by the driver, at the time of delivery.

I accept that any receipts due from the seller for "their part" of the
transaction may have been duly issued, but that still leaves a receipt for
HMRC's bit that you haven't got. I guess if you ask them, they would have to
issue you one, but I can imagine the nightmare of trying to organise that.
So, I'm actually with Steve on this one, and whether in law PF or any other
courier are acting as an agent for HMRC or not, in reality, they are, and
should be able - and obliged - to issue receipts for monies collected.

Just to take the point a bit further, as an employer, I have to collect
money from employees for tax and NI etc. For this purpose, HMRC treat me as
an (unpaid) "agent" ie I am collecting this money *on their behalf*. I am
required to produce all the relevant paperwork for those employees, to show
them where the money that I have collected from them, has gone. The trouble
is that HMRC want it both ways, and that's not how the real world works.

So no, I don't think that Steve's question or point, was facetious at all.

Arfa

Tinkerer wrote:


Like I said. The law does not permit them to and they are not acting as
agents for Customs but for the sender,

That's untrue. They are acting as an agent for the sender for the
delivery, but they are acting as an agent for HMRCC in collecting duty
and VAT. The sender has no responsibility to pay excise duty and VAT, I
do. Your beliefs about how it works are about as wrong as they can be.

In truth this is just farting about between HMRCC and Parcel Farce.
Parcel Farce live on in a dream world in which they are still the Post
Office hence don't need to be VAT registered. HMRCC are simply trying to
block businesses from making imports of small quantities of items and
claim back the VAT.

"Arfa Daily" wrote in message
newszz2o.256257$vB5.229411@hurricane...


"Tinkerer" wrote in message
...

"Steve Firth" wrote in message
. ..
Tinkerer wrote:

As explained elsewhere

Is there somewhere that you went to to learn how to be a tedious
straight man?

I know how VAT works, I know for Parcel Farce work. I simply beleive
that if Parcel Farce act as an agent they damn well give out receipts.

And possibly employ something other than monkeys.

Like I said. The law does not permit them to and they are not acting as
agents for Customs but for the sender, who will already have sent any
receipts due for their part of the transaction. You asked, I have
answered. I assumed that your question was serious, not facetious,
hence the "straight" reply.
--
Tinkerer


What you say about the law is very probably true, but I take Steve's
point, that this does not make it right. If I hand over money to anyone
who is themselves a business operator, or represents one, then I
reasonably expect to be able to have a receipt for that money. If I ask
for a VAT receipt in a garage, I don't expect the till operator to tell me
that VAT has got nothing to do with them, and that I can only have a
receipt for the actual fuel that I've bought. If an item has been ordered
from abroad - ie from say China or the U.S. then VAT will not have been
charged on it in the original transaction that has been carried out
between the seller and buyer, so there will not have been any invoice
which includes that additional charge. As to whether VAT - and import duty
for that matter - *gets* charged, is down to whether customs pick up on
the item, and decide to charge VAT or duty. I used to purchase some
semiconductors from a U.S. company, and used to buy 300 quids-worth at a
time. Import duty was always charged on these, but not VAT, because they
were parts, and not finished goods. But the duty was collected by UPS when
they delivered to my door, and they *were* acting on behalf of HMRC, and a
UPS receipt for the money collected, was always issued by the driver, at
the time of delivery.

I accept that any receipts due from the seller for "their part" of the
transaction may have been duly issued, but that still leaves a receipt for
HMRC's bit that you haven't got. I guess if you ask them, they would have
to issue you one, but I can imagine the nightmare of trying to organise
that. So, I'm actually with Steve on this one, and whether in law PF or
any other courier are acting as an agent for HMRC or not, in reality, they
are, and should be able - and obliged - to issue receipts for monies
collected.

Just to take the point a bit further, as an employer, I have to collect
money from employees for tax and NI etc. For this purpose, HMRC treat me
as an (unpaid) "agent" ie I am collecting this money *on their behalf*. I
am required to produce all the relevant paperwork for those employees, to
show them where the money that I have collected from them, has gone. The
trouble is that HMRC want it both ways, and that's not how the real world
works.

So no, I don't think that Steve's question or point, was facetious at all.



Actually, the facetious comment was merely made in response to Steve's
straight man remarks. I agree with you totally that the system leaves much
to be desired but Parcel Force have to carry out the function as directed by
HMC, and the fact remains that, as a non VAT concern, they cannot issue VAT
receipts. The only change made, some 15 years ago now, was the way in
which the money was collected. The pre PF method, which continued after PF
came into existence, was for sorting office staff to "spot" charged parcels
coming through and put them to one side to be dealt with. Too often they
would get missed and put out for delivery. As a result PF were paying
mountains of dosh to HMC and getting much less back. So the new (then)
system was introduced by which the parcels were passed from HMC directly to
a section that recorded and stored them. The addressees were sent a letter
detailing the charges and asking for it to be sent to the central accounts
office who, on receipt, would release the parcel for delivery. As to HMC
wanting it both ways, you are quite right, that has always been how "The
Revenue" have worked and, I suppose, always will be.
--
Tinkerer

"Steve Firth" wrote in message
.. .
Tinkerer wrote:


Like I said. The law does not permit them to and they are not acting as
agents for Customs but for the sender,

That's untrue. They are acting as an agent for the sender for the
delivery, but they are acting as an agent for HMRCC in collecting duty
and VAT. The sender has no responsibility to pay excise duty and VAT, I
do. Your beliefs about how it works are about as wrong as they can be.

In truth this is just farting about between HMRCC and Parcel Farce.
Parcel Farce live on in a dream world in which they are still the Post
Office hence don't need to be VAT registered. HMRCC are simply trying to
block businesses from making imports of small quantities of items and
claim back the VAT.

The reason that PF are (or at least in my day some 10 years ago were) not
registered for VAT is that their services are exempt from VAT and that is
why they cannot issue VAT receipts, no non VAT business can. Like I said,
that was 10 years ago and I can only assume that it is still the case today.
HMC regard the label attached to the parcel, which details the breakdown of
charges, as the receipt. PF regard the parcel as a Cash On Delivery parcel
and the total amount is just that - a single charge to be collected. And
of course PF are still the Post Office in the old sense of the word because
Post Office Ltd, Royal Mail and Parcel Force are all part of the same group.
Although how long that situation will last now is anybody's guess with
privatisation proposals back in the offing. My guess is that PF will be
the first part to go. As to why they have not introduced a general receipt
(without detailing the HMC breakdown) I have no idea. It used to be said
that the parcel was the receipt in itself. As to the last bit of your
reply, any conversation about VAT drawback has to be with the Customs
authorities. The charge label on the parcel will detail the separate
charges so I would have thought that there was room for dialogue there.
--
Tinkerer

snip


So no, I don't think that Steve's question or point, was facetious at
all.



Actually, the facetious comment was merely made in response to Steve's
straight man remarks. I agree with you totally that the system leaves
much to be desired but Parcel Force have to carry out the function as
directed by HMC, and the fact remains that, as a non VAT concern, they
cannot issue VAT receipts. The only change made, some 15 years ago now,
was the way in which the money was collected. The pre PF method, which
continued after PF came into existence, was for sorting office staff to
"spot" charged parcels coming through and put them to one side to be dealt
with. Too often they would get missed and put out for delivery. As a
result PF were paying mountains of dosh to HMC and getting much less back.
So the new (then) system was introduced by which the parcels were passed
from HMC directly to a section that recorded and stored them. The
addressees were sent a letter detailing the charges and asking for it to
be sent to the central accounts office who, on receipt, would release the
parcel for delivery. As to HMC wanting it both ways, you are quite
right, that has always been how "The Revenue" have worked and, I suppose,
always will be.
--
Tinkerer


Explanation all accepted, but wouldn't it actually be so easy to address
this issue. It's all a case of definitions, really. Whilst strictly
speaking, PF can't issue a 'VAT Receipt', there is nothing whatsoever, as a
business, to stop them issuing any other kind of receipt for monies taken.
So actually, there would be nothing to stop them issuing a receipt "For
payment collected on behalf of the VAT division of HMRC". I'm sure that
would satisfy the vast majority of people, and at least give them something
that they could put in their books, otherwise, there is no official record
of the money having been paid. I'm sure it doesn't happen often, but imagine
the ****ing contest that would ensue, if HMRC claimed that the money in
respect of some import, had not been received.

As to PF not being an "agent" of HMRC, again, this is just a matter of
definitions really, and is being exploited by all sides to relinquish
responsibility for that money whilst it's 'in the system'. No matter what
either PF or HMRC claim to the contrary as being the 'legal' position, if PF
collect that money, and then pass it on to HMRC, then they are acting as
that organisation's agent, and ought to bear the responsibility of at least
being able to issue a receipt when they take money from their customers.

It's interesting to see how the dictionary defines "agent". See the top
entry in the full listing for the word a third the way down the page at

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/agent

Arfa

Tinkerer wrote:

HMC regard the label attached to the parcel, which details the breakdown
of charges, as the receipt.

No they don't, and there is no such label on most deliveries.

You seem to be making this up as you go along.

"Steve Firth" wrote in message
.. .
Tinkerer wrote:

HMC regard the label attached to the parcel, which details the breakdown
of charges, as the receipt.

No they don't, and there is no such label on most deliveries.

You seem to be making this up as you go along.

No, as I said originally that is how it was before I retired. If the label
is no longer present then that is something that has changed since my days.
I agree the whole system was a mess but it had to be operated as laid down
by the Customs. The labels I am referring to were printed in red with
headings for all the possible customs charges and one at the bottom for PF's
handling charge. The customs charges were filled in by hand by the customs
staff and the handling charge was a fixed figure. The completed label was
stuck to the outer wrapping of the parcel. At that time the customs staff
operated a unit within the various PF offices of exchange and they were the
only carrier granted that facility. Anyway, that is how it was and there
may well have been changes since, but from what you are saying any that have
been made were certainly not for the better.
--
Tinkerer

"Arfa Daily" wrote in message
news:d1F2o.233958$aS3.57415@hurricane...

snip


So no, I don't think that Steve's question or point, was facetious at
all.



Actually, the facetious comment was merely made in response to Steve's
straight man remarks. I agree with you totally that the system leaves
much to be desired but Parcel Force have to carry out the function as
directed by HMC, and the fact remains that, as a non VAT concern, they
cannot issue VAT receipts. The only change made, some 15 years ago now,
was the way in which the money was collected. The pre PF method, which
continued after PF came into existence, was for sorting office staff to
"spot" charged parcels coming through and put them to one side to be
dealt with. Too often they would get missed and put out for delivery.
As a result PF were paying mountains of dosh to HMC and getting much less
back. So the new (then) system was introduced by which the parcels were
passed from HMC directly to a section that recorded and stored them.
The addressees were sent a letter detailing the charges and asking for it
to be sent to the central accounts office who, on receipt, would release
the parcel for delivery. As to HMC wanting it both ways, you are quite
right, that has always been how "The Revenue" have worked and, I suppose,
always will be.
--
Tinkerer


Explanation all accepted, but wouldn't it actually be so easy to address
this issue. It's all a case of definitions, really. Whilst strictly
speaking, PF can't issue a 'VAT Receipt', there is nothing whatsoever, as
a business, to stop them issuing any other kind of receipt for monies
taken. So actually, there would be nothing to stop them issuing a receipt
"For payment collected on behalf of the VAT division of HMRC". I'm sure
that would satisfy the vast majority of people, and at least give them
something that they could put in their books, otherwise, there is no
official record of the money having been paid. I'm sure it doesn't happen
often, but imagine the ****ing contest that would ensue, if HMRC claimed
that the money in respect of some import, had not been received.

As to PF not being an "agent" of HMRC, again, this is just a matter of
definitions really, and is being exploited by all sides to relinquish
responsibility for that money whilst it's 'in the system'. No matter what
either PF or HMRC claim to the contrary as being the 'legal' position, if
PF collect that money, and then pass it on to HMRC, then they are acting
as that organisation's agent, and ought to bear the responsibility of at
least being able to issue a receipt when they take money from their
customers.

It's interesting to see how the dictionary defines "agent". See the top
entry in the full listing for the word a third the way down the page at

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/agent


As I have said to Steve in my reply to his latest posting, this is how it
was before I retired. It could have changed since but it sounds unlikely.
In those days, addressees sent their payments to the accountants office in
Derbyshire and the parcels were susequently released from the appropriate
office of exchange (there used to be a dozen or so around the country but I
believe it is all concentrated in Rugby now). That in itself would have
complicated issueing receipts but I am sure could have been got around. As
to customs claiming that a VAT payment had not been received, that would not
happen because PF don't just pay for each individual parcel, they pay a bulk
figure consisting of the totals for all the parcels over a period. The
parcel is just a number on a bulk list and it would be impossible to
identify what had or had not been collected. In the event of a customer
refusing a parcel or it being undeliverable, PF claim the payments back from
the customs. So yes, it wasn't the best system, but it was how Customs
wanted it (and most likely still do) and I refer you back to your earlier
remarks.

I take your point about the word agent but I don't think they see it that
way. They simply regard themselves as a carrier transporting a parcel, in
this instance, from Customs to addressee as they would with any COD parcel.
In fact I suppose they probably regard themselves more as an agent of the
addressee. It is of course the addressee, not Customs, who pay PF for the
service via the handling charge.
--
Tinkerer

Tinkerer wrote:

Anyway, that is how it was and there may well have been changes since, but
from what you are saying any that have been made were certainly not for
the better.

The only labels are the ones filled in by the sender, including the
green customs declaration which shows no value for duty, since the
sender obviously has no knowledge what that is. The thing that gives the
lie to the way that Parcel Farce operate is that every other courier
issues a receipt which shows the monies collected on behalf of HMRC.

Parcel Force simply refuse to issue such a receipt and that, I can only
assume, is because the office staff are useless monkeys.

"Steve Firth" wrote in message
.. .
Tinkerer wrote:

Anyway, that is how it was and there may well have been changes since,
but
from what you are saying any that have been made were certainly not for
the better.

The only labels are the ones filled in by the sender, including the
green customs declaration which shows no value for duty, since the
sender obviously has no knowledge what that is. The thing that gives the
lie to the way that Parcel Farce operate is that every other courier
issues a receipt which shows the monies collected on behalf of HMRC.

Parcel Force simply refuse to issue such a receipt and that, I can only
assume, is because the office staff are useless monkeys.

I have told you all I know and can only repeat that
a) the labels were there in my day and that, as I suggested earlier, may
have changed since 2002
b) They are not refusing to issue receipts, they are not allowed to
c) no other carrier is VAT exempt and they can, therefore, issue VAT
receipts as they are VAT registered. PF are VAT exempt because they are
still technically part of the overall VAT exempt Royal Mail business which
has long been a bone of contention with the competition.
d) They have to provide the service as laid down by the agreement with HMRC

There is nothing else that I can tell you, for any further clarification you
will have to contact either PF or HMC.
--
Tinkerer

Tinkerer wrote:

b) They are not refusing to issue receipts, they are not allowed to

That's not true.

"Steve Firth" wrote in message
. ..
Tinkerer wrote:

b) They are not refusing to issue receipts, they are not allowed to

That's not true.

I meant VAT ones.

On Jul 24, 6:10*pm, (Steve Firth) wrote:
Tinkerer wrote:
HMC regard the label attached to the parcel, which details the breakdown
of charges, as the receipt.

No they don't, and there is no such label on most deliveries.

You seem to be making this up as you go along.

All of my imports have the label attached which gives a breakdown of
the charges.

A similar breakdown of charges is issued by PF when they write to
inform you that charges are due on a shipment that you must pay before
they will deliver.

MBQ

On Jul 24, 8:41*pm, "Tinkerer"
wrote:
"Steve Firth" wrote in message

.. .

Tinkerer wrote:

HMC regard the label attached to the parcel, which details the breakdown
of charges, as the receipt.

No they don't, and there is no such label on most deliveries.

You seem to be making this up as you go along.

No, as I said originally that is how it was before I retired. * If the label
is no longer present then that is something that has changed since my days.
I agree the whole system was a mess but it had to be operated as laid down
by the Customs. * *The labels I am referring to were printed in red with
headings for all the possible customs charges and one at the bottom for PF's
handling charge. * The customs charges were filled in by hand by the customs
staff and the handling charge was a fixed figure. * The completed label was
stuck to the outer wrapping of the parcel. * At that time the customs staff
operated a unit within the various PF offices of exchange and they were the
only carrier granted that facility. * Anyway, that is how it was and there
may well have been changes since, but from what you are saying any that have
been made were certainly not for the better.
--
Tinkerer

That's how it still is, except the labels are printed.

MBQ

On Jul 24, 9:28*pm, (Steve Firth) wrote:
Tinkerer wrote:
Anyway, that is how it was and there may well have been changes since, but
from what you are saying any that have been made were certainly not for
the better.

The only labels are the ones filled in by the sender, including the
green customs declaration which shows no value for duty, since the
sender obviously has no knowledge what that is. The thing that gives the
lie to the way that Parcel Farce operate is that every other courier
issues a receipt which shows the monies collected on behalf of HMRC.

Parcel Force simply refuse to issue such a receipt and that, I can only
assume, is because the office staff are useless monkeys.


You are making this up.

*Every* parcel I get through the Milton Keynes depot is notified by
post with a breakdown of the charges due (not a VAT receipt in the
strict legal sense but the VAT is itemised). I don't see how it can be
any different as you have to pay before delivery. I wouldn't pay
unless I could see what I was paying.

When they parcels arrive they *all* have the printed label with the
same charges itemised.

MBQ

"Man at B&Q" wrote in message
...
On Jul 24, 6:10 pm, (Steve Firth) wrote:
Tinkerer wrote:
HMC regard the label attached to the parcel, which details the breakdown
of charges, as the receipt.

No they don't, and there is no such label on most deliveries.

You seem to be making this up as you go along.

All of my imports have the label attached which gives a breakdown of
the charges.

A similar breakdown of charges is issued by PF when they write to
inform you that charges are due on a shipment that you must pay before
they will deliver.

MBQ


Many thanks MBQ. That, and your other responses, are exactly what I have
been saying all along. I thought my grey cells were atrophying.
--
Tinkerer

Man at B&Q wrote:


You are making this up.

No I'm not, but since you're an arse with an axe to grind, I can see how
telling pork pies as you do makes you feel like a big man.