Using (or trying to) various countersinks on chipboard flooring, most
didn't do much and one that did work got very hot and took about 30s per
hole [1]
Without spending a fortune, are there countersinks that will cut various
materials without setting fire to them? (I have both fluted and 'snail'
type and they're OK on ordinary wood).

Centre punches: could do with something that will handle steel and stay
pointy [2]. Also need pin punches that don't bend too easily.

I've looked at SF and TS; they have largely sets, which I don't mind if
they're good. Axminster's countersinks seem to start at dearish and go to
FO!

[1] Solved it for chipboard by blipping the hole with a slow, 10mm masonry
bit then finishing with countersink. Care needed, as masonry bit really
chews off the surface.

[2] Perhaps a bit unfair using a small punch to unscrew the front plate of
a freewheel, especially starting the wrong way 'til I remebered it was LH!
--
Peter.
2x4 - thick plank; 4x4 - two of 'em.

On 22 June, 14:01, PeterC wrote:
Using (or trying to) various countersinks on chipboard flooring, most
didn't do much and one that did work got very hot and took about 30s per
hole [1]
Without spending a fortune, are there countersinks that will cut various
materials without setting fire to them? (I have both fluted and 'snail'
type and they're OK on ordinary wood).

Centre punches: could do with something that will handle steel and stay
pointy [2]. Also need pin punches that don't bend too easily.

I've looked at SF and TS; they have largely sets, which I don't mind if
they're good. Axminster's countersinks seem to start at dearish and go to
FO!

[1] Solved it for chipboard by blipping the hole with a slow, 10mm masonry
bit then finishing with countersink. Care needed, as masonry bit really
chews off the surface.

Whats wrong with using a largish (say 12mm) normal HSS drill ?
It doesn't chew up the surface. Just be careful not to drill all the
way through !
Simon.

On Tue, 22 Jun 2010 06:20:28 -0700 (PDT), sm_jamieson wrote:

Whats wrong with using a largish (say 12mm) normal HSS drill ?

The tip angle on a normal drill is 135 deg (*) that of a counter sink
is 90 deg.

As to the OPs problem I can't say I've ever had a problem but it is
vital that the counter sink is sharp and properly centered into the
hole. I use a high speed on the drill, let the bit self centre, and
only apply light force. Counter sinks are not designed to remove
material quickly.

One tip I saw during a google to check my memory of angles was to
drill the counter sink first then the hole but that might be more
related to reducing chatter rather than makinga neat job but worth a
try?

(*) Ideally it varies with the material you intend to drill, soft
stuff pointy, hard stuff flatter. These days "off the shelf" drills
tend to be 135 deg. Counter sink tip angles also vary but the common
one is 90.

--
Cheers
Dave.

On 22/06/2010 15:24, Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Tue, 22 Jun 2010 06:20:28 -0700 (PDT), sm_jamieson wrote:

Whats wrong with using a largish (say 12mm) normal HSS drill ?

The tip angle on a normal drill is 135 deg (*) that of a counter sink
is 90 deg.

The tip angle can be changed to 90 degrees if you can grind a drill.

The problem with using a twist drill as a countersink is the rake angle
of the cutting edge.

Called the lip angle in this link.

http://www.sizes.com/tools/twist_drills.htm

If is ground for a tip angle of 90 degrees and the rake angle is not
flattened, the drill will corkscrew itself into the work and leave you
with a large hole that the countersunk screw will fall through

HTH

Dave

On Tue, 22 Jun 2010 17:51:18 +0100, dave wrote:

On 22/06/2010 15:24, Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Tue, 22 Jun 2010 06:20:28 -0700 (PDT), sm_jamieson wrote:

Whats wrong with using a largish (say 12mm) normal HSS drill ?

The tip angle on a normal drill is 135 deg (*) that of a counter sink
is 90 deg.

The tip angle can be changed to 90 degrees if you can grind a drill.

The problem with using a twist drill as a countersink is the rake angle
of the cutting edge.

Called the lip angle in this link.

http://www.sizes.com/tools/twist_drills.htm

If is ground for a tip angle of 90 degrees and the rake angle is not
flattened, the drill will corkscrew itself into the work and leave you
with a large hole that the countersunk screw will fall through

HTH

Dave

Yup, we used to back off the drills so that they scraped rather than cut,
as we used to countersink Perspex etc. and an unbacked-off bit will shatter
that.
--
Peter.
2x4 - thick plank; 4x4 - two of 'em.

On Jun 22, 5:51*pm, dave wrote:
On 22/06/2010 15:24, Dave Liquorice wrote:

On Tue, 22 Jun 2010 06:20:28 -0700 (PDT), sm_jamieson wrote:

Whats wrong with using a largish (say 12mm) normal HSS drill ?

The tip angle on a normal drill is 135 deg (*) that of a counter sink
is 90 deg.

The tip angle can be changed to 90 degrees if you can grind a drill.

The problem with using a twist drill as a countersink is the rake angle
of the cutting edge.

Called the lip angle in this link.

http://www.sizes.com/tools/twist_drills.htm

If is ground for a tip angle of 90 degrees and the rake angle is not
flattened, the drill will corkscrew itself into the work and leave you
with a large hole that the countersunk screw will fall through

HTH

Dave


I've been regrinding twist drills for years, and routinely make both
angles much steeper for wood driling. Never had one corkscrew in yet.
I expect if someone were to lean hard on one maybe it would, but they
cut so fast with almost no pressure, there's no sense leaning on it.


NT

PeterC wrote:
Using (or trying to) various countersinks on chipboard flooring, most
didn't do much and one that did work got very hot and took about 30s per
hole [1]
Without spending a fortune, are there countersinks that will cut various
materials without setting fire to them? (I have both fluted and 'snail'
type and they're OK on ordinary wood).

Centre punches: could do with something that will handle steel and stay
pointy [2]. Also need pin punches that don't bend too easily.

I've looked at SF and TS; they have largely sets, which I don't mind if
they're good. Axminster's countersinks seem to start at dearish and go to
FO!

[1] Solved it for chipboard by blipping the hole with a slow, 10mm masonry
bit then finishing with countersink. Care needed, as masonry bit really
chews off the surface.

[2] Perhaps a bit unfair using a small punch to unscrew the front plate of
a freewheel, especially starting the wrong way 'til I remebered it was LH!

Combined drill/countersink bits are useful, where the sink part locks
with an allen key to adjust the depth. Alas the ones I have only seem to
work with the drill bits they come with, which are some weird in between
size.
IME nail punches need to be concave to work reliably. You get a slightly
bigger hole than required but, as they sit over the head of the nail,
they don't slip off

"stuart noble" wrote in message
news:Fc3Un.9963$NM4.9778@hurricane...
PeterC wrote:
Using (or trying to) various countersinks on chipboard flooring, most
didn't do much and one that did work got very hot and took about 30s per
hole [1]
Without spending a fortune, are there countersinks that will cut various
materials without setting fire to them? (I have both fluted and 'snail'
type and they're OK on ordinary wood).

Centre punches: could do with something that will handle steel and stay
pointy [2]. Also need pin punches that don't bend too easily.

I've looked at SF and TS; they have largely sets, which I don't mind if
they're good. Axminster's countersinks seem to start at dearish and go to
FO!

[1] Solved it for chipboard by blipping the hole with a slow, 10mm
masonry
bit then finishing with countersink. Care needed, as masonry bit really
chews off the surface.

[2] Perhaps a bit unfair using a small punch to unscrew the front plate
of
a freewheel, especially starting the wrong way 'til I remebered it was
LH!

Combined drill/countersink bits are useful, where the sink part locks with
an allen key to adjust the depth. Alas the ones I have only seem to work
with the drill bits they come with, which are some weird in between size.
IME nail punches need to be concave to work reliably. You get a slightly
bigger hole than required but, as they sit over the head of the nail, they
don't slip off

You can 'concave' any bit of rod or punch just by tapping it on the side of
the tip with a hammer , as you rotate it on the anvil of a vice or similar.
If you have had a punch long you will probably need to be doing it by now,
as it will already be wider than it was. Large nails do for punches for me
most of the time: the genuine efforts generally serving more like drifts for
pushing pins out of chain links and the like.

I also like the combo drill countersink, and just for screws in wood I don't
think the odd sizes matter very much. The resin in chipboard can be fairly
hard but a properly hardened new bit should not have any trouble with it.

S

PeterC wrote:

Using (or trying to) various countersinks on chipboard flooring, most
didn't do much and one that did work got very hot and took about 30s per
hole [1]

You must have super armour plated chipboard or a cheapo monkey-metal
countersink. I use a CK 2601 snail type countersink and it copes with wood,
chipboard and MDF without any sweat. In fact with chipboard I find that
screws like goldscrews from Screwfix will pretty well countersink
themselves without using a countersink bit.

Without spending a fortune, are there countersinks that will cut various
materials without setting fire to them? (I have both fluted and 'snail'
type and they're OK on ordinary wood).

Depends on your definition of fortune, mine cost me about £4.50 when I
bought it about 5 years ago from a local toolshop. Rapid have them for a
similar price http://www.rapidonline.com/1/1/3930-countersink-bits.html
but delivery will more than double that, though I expect they should be
readily available from local shops.

--
Mike Clarke

"Mike Clarke" wrote in message
o.uk...
PeterC wrote:

Using (or trying to) various countersinks on chipboard flooring, most
didn't do much and one that did work got very hot and took about 30s per
hole [1]

You must have super armour plated chipboard or a cheapo monkey-metal
countersink. I use a CK 2601 snail type countersink and it copes with
wood,
chipboard and MDF without any sweat. In fact with chipboard I find that
screws like goldscrews from Screwfix will pretty well countersink
themselves without using a countersink bit.

Without spending a fortune, are there countersinks that will cut various
materials without setting fire to them? (I have both fluted and 'snail'
type and they're OK on ordinary wood).

Depends on your definition of fortune, mine cost me about £4.50 when I
bought it about 5 years ago from a local toolshop. Rapid have them for a
similar price http://www.rapidonline.com/1/1/3930-countersink-bits.html
but delivery will more than double that, though I expect they should be
readily available from local shops.

--
Mike Clarke

Yes I find these days of powered screwdrivers the problem is usually how not
to get far too much 'countersink'!

;-)
S

Mike Clarke wrote:
PeterC wrote:

In fact with chipboard I
find that screws like goldscrews from Screwfix will pretty well
countersink themselves without using a countersink bit.

My thoughts exactly. Why use a countersink? Turbogold from Screwfix
countersink themselves.


--
Dave - The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk

On Tue, 22 Jun 2010 19:38:15 +0100, The Medway Handyman wrote:

Mike Clarke wrote:
PeterC wrote:

In fact with chipboard I
find that screws like goldscrews from Screwfix will pretty well
countersink themselves without using a countersink bit.

My thoughts exactly. Why use a countersink? Turbogold from Screwfix
countersink themselves.

I'm just using Goldscrews (5x60), so no ribs. I'm not sure that Turbos
would work on this surface.
--
Peter.
2x4 - thick plank; 4x4 - two of 'em.

On Tue, 22 Jun 2010 14:58:44 +0100, Mike Clarke wrote:

PeterC wrote:

Using (or trying to) various countersinks on chipboard flooring, most
didn't do much and one that did work got very hot and took about 30s per
hole [1]

You must have super armour plated chipboard or a cheapo monkey-metal
countersink. I use a CK 2601 snail type countersink and it copes with wood,
chipboard and MDF without any sweat. In fact with chipboard I find that
screws like goldscrews from Screwfix will pretty well countersink
themselves without using a countersink bit.

Without spending a fortune, are there countersinks that will cut various
materials without setting fire to them? (I have both fluted and 'snail'
type and they're OK on ordinary wood).

Depends on your definition of fortune, mine cost me about £4.50 when I
bought it about 5 years ago from a local toolshop. Rapid have them for a
similar price http://www.rapidonline.com/1/1/3930-countersink-bits.html
but delivery will more than double that, though I expect they should be
readily available from local shops.

They look quite good - sharp edges, which some don't have. Thanks.
--
Peter.
2x4 - thick plank; 4x4 - two of 'em.

On Tue, 22 Jun 2010 14:58:44 +0100, Mike Clarke wrote:

PeterC wrote:

Using (or trying to) various countersinks on chipboard flooring, most
didn't do much and one that did work got very hot and took about 30s per
hole [1]

You must have super armour plated chipboard or a cheapo monkey-metal
countersink. I use a CK 2601 snail type countersink and it copes with wood,
chipboard and MDF without any sweat. In fact with chipboard I find that
screws like goldscrews from Screwfix will pretty well countersink
themselves without using a countersink bit.

The board is much harder on the surface - indeed, for the first 1 - 2mm in
- and is noticeably harder to drill there. I did a couple of holes on an
offcut with a wheelbrace and new 5mm bit and it was relatively hard work to
get started. (The boards suffered from some rain - after drying out the
surface was still flat and smooth and the exposed tongues etc. were still
as new!).
--
Peter.
2x4 - thick plank; 4x4 - two of 'em.

PeterC wrote:
Using (or trying to) various countersinks on chipboard flooring, most
didn't do much and one that did work got very hot and took about 30s per
hole [1]..

I've just laid a 2.4m x 3.6m floor, using a cheapo countersink from
Focus without any problems at all.

Colin Bignell

On Tue, 22 Jun 2010 17:11:32 +0100, Nightjar "cpb"@ wrote:

PeterC wrote:
Using (or trying to) various countersinks on chipboard flooring, most
didn't do much and one that did work got very hot and took about 30s per
hole [1]..

I've just laid a 2.4m x 3.6m floor, using a cheapo countersink from
Focus without any problems at all.

Colin Bignell

Did the board have a hard surface? My csk bits will do chipboard OK, it's
just this surface.
--
Peter.
2x4 - thick plank; 4x4 - two of 'em.

"PeterC" wrote in message
...
Using (or trying to) various countersinks on chipboard flooring, most
didn't do much and one that did work got very hot and took about 30s per
hole [1]
Without spending a fortune, are there countersinks that will cut various
materials without setting fire to them? (I have both fluted and 'snail'
type and they're OK on ordinary wood).

snip
I found that high speed, high power and strong pressure tended to get the
countersink to spin and burn the wood.

I use a slower speed and lighter pressure - usually with a 12V cordless
drill - and that seems to work better for me.

I have some fine and some coarse countersinks but the number of cutting
edges doesn't seem to make much difference in chipboard.

HTH

Dave R
--
No plan survives contact with the enemy.

Helmuth von Moltke the Elder

On Tue, 22 Jun 2010 18:13:47 +0100, David WE Roberts wrote:

"PeterC" wrote in message
...
Using (or trying to) various countersinks on chipboard flooring, most
didn't do much and one that did work got very hot and took about 30s per
hole [1]
Without spending a fortune, are there countersinks that will cut various
materials without setting fire to them? (I have both fluted and 'snail'
type and they're OK on ordinary wood).

snip
I found that high speed, high power and strong pressure tended to get the
countersink to spin and burn the wood.

I use a slower speed and lighter pressure - usually with a 12V cordless
drill - and that seems to work better for me.

I have some fine and some coarse countersinks but the number of cutting
edges doesn't seem to make much difference in chipboard.

HTH

Dave R

Tried both (started with a 7.2V screwdriver) and only the Makita running
fast did anything at all.
--
Peter.
2x4 - thick plank; 4x4 - two of 'em.

On Jun 22, 2:01*pm, PeterC wrote:
Using (or trying to) various countersinks on chipboard flooring, most
didn't do much and one that did work got very hot and took about 30s per
hole [1]
Without spending a fortune, are there countersinks that will cut various
materials without setting fire to them? (I have both fluted and 'snail'
type and they're OK on ordinary wood).

Centre punches: could do with something that will handle steel and stay
pointy [2]. Also need pin punches that don't bend too easily.

I've looked at SF and TS; they have largely sets, which I don't mind if
they're good. Axminster's countersinks seem to start at dearish and go to
FO!

[1] Solved it for chipboard by blipping the hole with a slow, 10mm masonry
bit then finishing with countersink. Care needed, as masonry bit really
chews off the surface.

[2] Perhaps a bit unfair using a small punch to unscrew the front plate of
a freewheel, especially starting the wrong way 'til I remebered it was LH!


Chip is as hard as peanut butter, its an unusal screw that neeeds a
countersinked hole in chip.

Some countersinks simply arent sharp. Ordinary twist drills make
effective countersinks, the angle of the hole it makes is anything
other than fussy in chipboard.


NT

NT wrote:
On Jun 22, 2:01 pm, PeterC wrote:
Using (or trying to) various countersinks on chipboard flooring, most
didn't do much and one that did work got very hot and took about 30s
per hole [1]
Without spending a fortune, are there countersinks that will cut
various materials without setting fire to them? (I have both fluted
and 'snail' type and they're OK on ordinary wood).

Centre punches: could do with something that will handle steel and
stay pointy [2]. Also need pin punches that don't bend too easily.

I've looked at SF and TS; they have largely sets, which I don't mind
if they're good. Axminster's countersinks seem to start at dearish
and go to FO!

[1] Solved it for chipboard by blipping the hole with a slow, 10mm
masonry bit then finishing with countersink. Care needed, as masonry
bit really chews off the surface.

[2] Perhaps a bit unfair using a small punch to unscrew the front
plate of a freewheel, especially starting the wrong way 'til I
remebered it was LH!


Chip is as hard as peanut butter, its an unusal screw that neeeds a
countersinked hole in chip.

Dunno where you get your chipboard, but most is as hard as nails.

--
Dave - The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk

On Jun 22, 10:44*pm, "The Medway Handyman" davidl...@no-spam-
blueyonder.co.uk wrote:
NT wrote:
On Jun 22, 2:01 pm, PeterC wrote:
Using (or trying to) various countersinks on chipboard flooring, most
didn't do much and one that did work got very hot and took about 30s
per hole [1]
Without spending a fortune, are there countersinks that will cut
various materials without setting fire to them? (I have both fluted
and 'snail' type and they're OK on ordinary wood).

Centre punches: could do with something that will handle steel and
stay pointy [2]. Also need pin punches that don't bend too easily.

I've looked at SF and TS; they have largely sets, which I don't mind
if they're good. Axminster's countersinks seem to start at dearish
and go to FO!

[1] Solved it for chipboard by blipping the hole with a slow, 10mm
masonry bit then finishing with countersink. Care needed, as masonry
bit really chews off the surface.

[2] Perhaps a bit unfair using a small punch to unscrew the front
plate of a freewheel, especially starting the wrong way 'til I
remebered it was LH!

Chip is as hard as peanut butter, its an unusal screw that neeeds a
countersinked hole in chip.

Dunno where you get your chipboard, but most is as hard as nails.

Wickes mainly


NT