On Jun 15, 11:02*pm, geoff wrote:
In message , geoff
writes

In message
, Man
at B&Q writes
On Jun 14, 8:00*pm, geoff wrote:
In message
, Man
at B&Q writes

On Jun 14, 9:42*am, Tim Watts wrote:
On Mon, 14 Jun 2010 00:34:12 +0100, "Dave Liquorice"
wibbled:

On Sun, 13 Jun 2010 18:11:45 +0100, Ron Lowe wrote:

The vast majority of faults are not fancy electronic failures. 90% are
mechanical, connector, chaffed wire, etc. Of the remaining 10%
electronic problems, 90% of those are PSU-related. Only a very small
percentage is actual gubbins-failure.

I like that breakdown, it's about right. I'd add that a lot of the rare
actual gubbins failures can be put down to the PSU throwing a wobbly or
a spike/dip in the supply.

If stuff survives the first few days or weeks of regular use it will
essentially last forever. Always assuming that it has been designed
well, no components right up at the top of their power rating with
inadequate methods of removing the heat resulting in scorched circuit
boards and weakend joints after a year or three of use or simple
component failure due to being under too much stress.

Electrolytic capacitors a a weak point - they tend to be vulnerable to
failure before other components IME.

Not if tye correct parts are specified at the design stage and
assuming you buy from a reputable supplier so that you actually get
those parts. The latter is one of the major differences between cheap
as chips stuff and expensive automotive grade stuff.

But even silicon doesn't survive forever.

Essentially, again if specc'ed correctly and sourced from a
manufacturer who know what they are doing.

Here we go - back to unrealistic assumptions

In the world of dodgy boiler PCBs, maybe.

Yes

Its an ideal example of what happens when all these conditions that, who
was it, dave ? stipulated, just don't exist

It also ignores the fact that plenty of electronics is designed to fail,

Care to provide proof of that?

I'll accept that things are not designed to last but you seem to imply
malice.

MBQ

tony sayer wrote:
its only since the unit foxed the local mech's that
it became an issue.

Never a hard thing to do.

Especially with electrical.

These are 'replace and see' merchants. They know little and understand less.

Man at B&Q wrote:
On Jun 15, 7:27 pm, Andy Champ wrote:
The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Mil spec semiconductors have better seals and pay attention to
differential thermal coefficients in the packages.
Bumped into a chip once (NEC V40 IIRC) where the extended range one was
done on a bigger technology - 8 micron, not 5, or something like that.
Can't check, the book is at work.


If it was mil spec that may have had more to do with a mil qualified
production line not being available for the smaller geometry, or it
may be realated to radiation hardening.


usually a different packaging as well. Ceramic packages and special
glues take more extreme temp cycling than the trad epoxy style packages.


Mil spec is less about chip design, and more about selecting more
tightly. using more conservatively, and packaging better.

A lot of early car electronics failures were down to the fact that
designers simply did not appreciate how hostile and environment a car
engine compartment was. Ambient temps way up. Or way down overnight in
frost.. high G vibration, corrosive water and salt spray..voltage spikes
well over a hundred if any part of the ignition fed back into the
supply, and potential for high induced voltages on all inputs of any
impedance due to ignition, and starter motor EMF radiations..

It's a miracle it works at all.

MBQ

geoff wrote:

In our electronics lab where we maintain *very* expensive electronic and
electro/hydraulic equipment, whacking things with a rubber hammer is a
standard fault-finding technique.


The other good one is a can of freeze spray.

Any area of the board that creates or clear a fault with application of
freezer, is almost certainly suffering from a dry joint..

I resoldered ALL the eyelets - over a hundred - that were the substitute
for plated through holes - on one telly.

Fixed all the problems that banging it cured. That was after resoldering
half a dozen ID'd by freeze spray fixed SOME of the problems.




The vast majority of faults are not fancy electronic failures.
90% are mechanical, connector, chaffed wire, etc.
Of the remaining 10% electronic problems, 90% of those are PSU-related.
Only a very small percentage is actual gubbins-failure."


Totally my experience as well.

However the ones that I used to get handed to me were a skewed sample:
they were the ones that could NOT be fixed by such techniques.


And were far and away the most interesting.

I recall one, which was a shorted polystyrene capacitor. Solder bath had
actually melted it internally.

Showed up by prodding it.

Another power transistor failure was due to getting hot and the actual
lead out wire on the emitter expanding enough to short to the base..I
sawed it open and could JUST see where a microspark had welded the base
to the emitter. Completely off target spot weld on the wire, that JUST
passed testing, but failed the first time it was put in a unit.

Other nasties are digital timings and propagation delays..Yuk. stuff
that statistically mostly works until you get a hot (or cold) day, and a
bunch of all out of spec one way.

Conservative design and soak testing is the way you get round this sort
of stuff.

You HOPE that you have put the unit through worse than it will ever get
in service.

geoff wrote:

It also ignores the fact that plenty of electronics is designed to fail,
just like other parts in various commercial goods where there is money
to be made from spare parts

I think its less designed to fail, than its designed down to a price,
not up to a standard.

If uyou have a design that cots 90[p., that in general fails less than
one in a thousand on the line, less than one in a hundred in the home
under guarantee, the fact that 30% fail in ten years is of little
interest to you.

The time alone needed to get an MTBF of 100,000 hours, and the cost,
would probably make your product as uncompetitive as er - a Miele.

Its only when pople actually find the Miele is cheaper in the long run,
that the pressure is on to do better.

It was teh case in cars.

German cars didn't blow up at 80 mph continuous. British cars did.
Japanese cars didn't have dodgy electrics. British cars did.

So peoples expectations changed. They decided they were happy paying
more for something that could in fact be used for more than a drive to
the nearest garage for fixing.

In message
, Man
at B&Q writes
On Jun 15, 11:02*pm, geoff wrote:
In message , geoff
writes

In message
, Man
at B&Q writes
On Jun 14, 8:00*pm, geoff wrote:
In message
, Man
at B&Q writes

On Jun 14, 9:42*am, Tim Watts wrote:
On Mon, 14 Jun 2010 00:34:12 +0100, "Dave Liquorice"
wibbled:

On Sun, 13 Jun 2010 18:11:45 +0100, Ron Lowe wrote:

The vast majority of faults are not fancy electronic
failures. 90% are
mechanical, connector, chaffed wire, etc. Of the remaining 10%
electronic problems, 90% of those are PSU-related. Only a

percentage is actual gubbins-failure.

I like that breakdown, it's about right. I'd add that a lot
the rare
actual gubbins failures can be put down to the PSU throwing
a wobbly or
a spike/dip in the supply.

If stuff survives the first few days or weeks of regular use it will
essentially last forever. Always assuming that it has been designed
well, no components right up at the top of their power rating with
inadequate methods of removing the heat resulting in
scorched circuit
boards and weakend joints after a year or three of use or simple
component failure due to being under too much stress.

Electrolytic capacitors a a weak point - they tend to be vulnerable to
failure before other components IME.

Not if tye correct parts are specified at the design stage and
assuming you buy from a reputable supplier so that you actually get
those parts. The latter is one of the major differences between cheap
as chips stuff and expensive automotive grade stuff.

But even silicon doesn't survive forever.

Essentially, again if specc'ed correctly and sourced from a
manufacturer who know what they are doing.

Here we go - back to unrealistic assumptions

In the world of dodgy boiler PCBs, maybe.

Yes

Its an ideal example of what happens when all these conditions that, who
was it, dave ? stipulated, just don't exist

It also ignores the fact that plenty of electronics is designed to fail,

Care to provide proof of that?

I'll accept that things are not designed to last but you seem to imply
malice.

Well - for starters

sticking to boiler pcbs

the real killer of pcbs is fans - the back emf destroying the contacts
of the relay driving it.
A snubber network, costing less than pence would mitigate the problem

also, e.g. Potterton use a smaller relay to drive fans than they used to
do

there are two possibilities, mad or malicious

I could go on, but I have to go to a residents meeting in a few minutes

laters

--
geoff

On Mon, 14 Jun 2010 19:49:22 +0100, geoff wrote:

In message , Dave Osborne
writes
geoff wrote:
In message o.uk,
Dave Liquorice writes

If stuff survives the first few days or weeks of regular use it will
essentially last forever. Always assuming that it has been designed
well, no components right up at the top of their power rating with
inadequate methods of removing the heat resulting in scorched circuit
boards and weakend joints after a year or three of use or simple
component failure due to being under too much stress.

Lovely sweeping statements based on invalid assumptions there


Not at all.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bathtub_curve

Yes, at all

Your assumptions concerning good design, components not being stressed
and heat transit are only ones that can be made in an ideal world

they are certainly not encountered in real consumer electronics

And I'm not sure how you equate "essentially last forever" with what
parts 2 and 3 of the curve - random and wear out failures

Tin whisker growth in germanium transistors?

Actually chips can and do fail after a period of working perfectly, as the
stresses of thermal cycling can break the welds on the fine wires
connecting the actual IC to its external pins.

SteveW

Steve Walker wrote:
On Mon, 14 Jun 2010 19:49:22 +0100, geoff wrote:

In message , Dave Osborne
writes
geoff wrote:
In message o.uk,
Dave Liquorice writes
If stuff survives the first few days or weeks of regular use it will
essentially last forever. Always assuming that it has been designed
well, no components right up at the top of their power rating with
inadequate methods of removing the heat resulting in scorched circuit
boards and weakend joints after a year or three of use or simple
component failure due to being under too much stress.

Lovely sweeping statements based on invalid assumptions there

Not at all.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bathtub_curve
Yes, at all

Your assumptions concerning good design, components not being stressed
and heat transit are only ones that can be made in an ideal world

they are certainly not encountered in real consumer electronics

And I'm not sure how you equate "essentially last forever" with what
parts 2 and 3 of the curve - random and wear out failures

Tin whisker growth in germanium transistors?

Actually chips can and do fail after a period of working perfectly, as the
stresses of thermal cycling can break the welds on the fine wires
connecting the actual IC to its external pins.


No, that's unusual, especially in 'proper' packaging, because they are
not 'tight'

Normal CHIP (as opposed to package) failure mode is dopant migration,
causing the semiconductor to become less of a semiconductor: that's
happens in a few seconds at 200C, a few hoursr at 199C..a few days at
198C..you get the picture. That and crackled seals leading to chemical
poisoning are the two main causes of ageing.

I've never had a bondwire actually come off.





SteveW

On Jun 16, 8:46*pm, Steve Walker wrote:
On Mon, 14 Jun 2010 19:49:22 +0100, geoff wrote:
In message , Dave Osborne
writes
geoff wrote:
In message o.uk,
Dave *Liquorice writes

If stuff survives the first few days or weeks of regular use it will
essentially last forever. Always assuming that it has been designed
well, no components right up at the top of their power rating with
inadequate methods of removing the heat resulting in scorched circuit
boards and weakend joints after a year or three of use or simple
component failure due to being under too much stress.

Lovely sweeping statements based on invalid assumptions there

Not at all.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bathtub_curve

Yes, at all

Your assumptions concerning good design, components not being stressed
and heat transit are only ones that can be made in an ideal world

they are certainly not encountered in real consumer electronics

And I'm not sure how you equate "essentially last forever" with what
parts 2 and 3 of the curve - random and wear out failures

Tin whisker growth in germanium transistors?

Regrowth of fuse link in fusible link PROMs and PLAs.

Tin whiskers are causing concern again in some spheres with unleaded
solder.

Commercial grade FLASH memory in MP3 and the like is not so good,
especially the multi-level cell versions.

MBQ

We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember The Natural Philosopher
saying something like:

German cars didn't blow up at 80 mph continuous. British cars did.

Rubbish.

Japanese cars didn't have dodgy electrics. British cars did.

Rubbish.

Grimly Curmudgeon wrote:
We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember The Natural Philosopher
saying something like:

German cars didn't blow up at 80 mph continuous. British cars did.

Rubbish.

Japanese cars didn't have dodgy electrics. British cars did.

Rubbish.

Oh they did.

I was there.

I fixed em.

And modified them so they would not.

The Natural Philosopher
wibbled on Thursday 17 June 2010 10:41

Grimly Curmudgeon wrote:
We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember The Natural Philosopher
saying something like:

German cars didn't blow up at 80 mph continuous. British cars did.

Rubbish.

Japanese cars didn't have dodgy electrics. British cars did.

Rubbish.

Come on - "Lucas, Prince of Darkness" !!

Oh they did.

I was there.

I fixed em.

We all did...

And modified them so they would not.

Some of that too

--
Tim Watts

Managers, politicians and environmentalists: Nature's carbon buffer.

In article ,
Tim Watts wrote:
Come on - "Lucas, Prince of Darkness" !!

A name coined in the US. Personally the very worst electrics I had on any
vehicle was Delco - the brand owned by GM, a US company. On a Bedford van.
Every major component failed.

Lucas made stuff to what the market would pay. Hence plenty of rubbish.
But could make very good stuff too - like for Rolls Royce.

--
*The closest I ever got to a 4.0 in school was my blood alcohol content*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember The Natural Philosopher
saying something like:

Japanese cars didn't have dodgy electrics. British cars did.

Rubbish.

Oh they did.

I was there.

I fixed em.

And modified them so they would not.

I was there too, you know.

In general, the quality of most British vehicle electrics was superior
to Italian and Japanese, especially in the quality of the main wiring
loom. The real problem lay with clueless owners, as always.

The Italian faults didn't generally tend to be the wiring (although I've
seen a few FIATs on fire), but componentry and it cost an arm and leg to
replace Magnetti Marelli parts, they also had pretty crap light and
switch connectors /switchgear.

The Japanese were the first to introduce re-cycled copper in their
mass-market looms, which led to all sorts of mysterious faults in the
wiring in later years. It took a while for Japanese reliability to
become established - early on, in the main period we're referring to,
they were nothing special for reliability.
If the cost of Italian parts made an owner blanch, the pricetag
associated with Japanese electrical bits would lead to him passing out.

Fortunately, there were/are usually workarounds for a 'genuine' part.

.

The Japanese were the first to introduce re-cycled copper in their
mass-market looms, which led to all sorts of mysterious faults in the
wiring in later years.

Grimly .. how did that manifest itself, and what was "wrong" with the re
cycled copper?...

It took a while for Japanese reliability to
become established - early on, in the main period we're referring to,
they were nothing special for reliability.
If the cost of Italian parts made an owner blanch, the pricetag
associated with Japanese electrical bits would lead to him passing out.

Fortunately, there were/are usually workarounds for a 'genuine' part.

--
Tony Sayer

We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember tony sayer
saying something like:

The Japanese were the first to introduce re-cycled copper in their
mass-market looms, which led to all sorts of mysterious faults in the
wiring in later years.

Grimly .. how did that manifest itself, and what was "wrong" with the re
cycled copper?...

Mostly corroded connections to crimps and sometimes wire breaks where
the insulation had allowed moisture to permeate through. A bit late for
it now, but if you had a look on many Japanese wiring looms of the 60s
and 70s, you'd find the copper had corroded not just at the ends, as
expected, but all the way through the length of the wire. I put this
down to the re-cycling of scrap copper, with impurities above the level
that would have been acceptable in Europe. Also, they tended to have
wire gauges that were just about acceptable for the current going
through them, making the quality problem rear its head earlier than it
should have.

Their aluminium castings on bikes weren't too hot either, for the same
reason, I'm sure (recycling).
What the Japanese seemed to do was improve the protection, rather than
improve the quality and cost of the metals. They concentrated on better
insulation and shrouding, with much more attention paid to securing the
loom, and with alloy castings they depended on laquer coatings. This has
been going on for decades now.
I've no complaints about the electrics on my ****eOldToyota (1989 Carina
II), as I'm aware of the tricks they employed and can work within the
limits of the system. Any repairs need to be protected to the same
standard (or better)as the original and an eye kept on likely trouble
spots.

Grimly Curmudgeon wrote:
We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember tony sayer
saying something like:

The Japanese were the first to introduce re-cycled copper in their
mass-market looms, which led to all sorts of mysterious faults in the
wiring in later years.
Grimly .. how did that manifest itself, and what was "wrong" with the re
cycled copper?...

Mostly corroded connections to crimps and sometimes wire breaks where
the insulation had allowed moisture to permeate through. A bit late for
it now, but if you had a look on many Japanese wiring looms of the 60s
and 70s, you'd find the copper had corroded not just at the ends, as
expected, but all the way through the length of the wire. I put this
down to the re-cycling of scrap copper, with impurities above the level
that would have been acceptable in Europe.


NO.

I suspect its a subspecies of this:

http://www.barbadosrc.org/misc/blackwire.php

which is well known, if not so well understood.

I suspect myself its electrochemical attack of copper due to three
things: damp, a salt, and a voltage.



//snip

What the Japanese seemed to do was improve the protection, rather than
improve the quality and cost of the metals. They concentrated on better
insulation and shrouding, with much more attention paid to securing the
loom, and with alloy castings they depended on laquer coatings. This has
been going on for decades now.

precisely. There was nothing wrong with the copper, but they needed to
keep the damp and the salts out better, that's all.

In article ,
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
I suspect its a subspecies of this:

http://www.barbadosrc.org/misc/blackwire.php

which is well known, if not so well understood.

I suspect myself its electrochemical attack of copper due to three
things: damp, a salt, and a voltage.

Since I do quite a bit of work on old cars, this is common. But how or
why I dunno. One cable in a loom will have it - another not. Cable from
the same maker. But not as bad as shown in that article - more just a
coating on the individual strands. Which makes a good insulator...

--
*How many roads must a man travel down before he admits he is lost? *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
I suspect its a subspecies of this:

http://www.barbadosrc.org/misc/blackwire.php

which is well known, if not so well understood.

I suspect myself its electrochemical attack of copper due to three
things: damp, a salt, and a voltage.

Since I do quite a bit of work on old cars, this is common. But how or
why I dunno. One cable in a loom will have it - another not. Cable from
the same maker. But not as bad as shown in that article - more just a
coating on the individual strands. Which makes a good insulator...


the key is whether the insulator allows wet salt in, and whether its in
the negative side of something that can leak..

We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember The Natural Philosopher
saying something like:

I put this
down to the re-cycling of scrap copper, with impurities above the level
that would have been acceptable in Europe.


NO.

I suspect its a subspecies of this:

http://www.barbadosrc.org/misc/blackwire.php

which is well known, if not so well understood.

Which doesn't address the problem in cars. At all.

I suspect myself its electrochemical attack of copper due to three
things: damp, a salt, and a voltage.

And **** wire.

Grimly Curmudgeon wrote:
We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember The Natural Philosopher
saying something like:

I put this
down to the re-cycling of scrap copper, with impurities above the level
that would have been acceptable in Europe.

NO.

I suspect its a subspecies of this:

http://www.barbadosrc.org/misc/blackwire.php

which is well known, if not so well understood.

Which doesn't address the problem in cars. At all.

I suspect myself its electrochemical attack of copper due to three
things: damp, a salt, and a voltage.

And **** wire.

No. Not **** wire.

Which is the point.

In article , Grimly
Curmudgeon scribeth thus
We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember The Natural Philosopher
saying something like:

I put this
down to the re-cycling of scrap copper, with impurities above the level
that would have been acceptable in Europe.


NO.

I suspect its a subspecies of this:

http://www.barbadosrc.org/misc/blackwire.php

which is well known, if not so well understood.

Which doesn't address the problem in cars. At all.

I suspect myself its electrochemical attack of copper due to three
things: damp, a salt, and a voltage.

And **** wire.

Some impurity surely?.

After all Copper is copper its what's mixed in with it ?...
--
Tony Sayer

In message , The Natural Philosopher
writes
I suspect its a subspecies of this:

http://www.barbadosrc.org/misc/blackwire.php

which is well known, if not so well understood.
Which doesn't address the problem in cars. At all.

I suspect myself its electrochemical attack of copper due to three
things: damp, a salt, and a voltage.
And **** wire.

No. Not **** wire.

Which is the point.

Umm.. aren't apocryphal tales told of bodywork corrosion when Ford
changed the battery polarity on their cars?

Tinned multistrand cable is OK on my tractors which have -ve earth.

regards

--
Tim Lamb

We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember The Natural Philosopher
saying something like:

I suspect myself its electrochemical attack of copper due to three
things: damp, a salt, and a voltage.

And **** wire.

No. Not **** wire.

Which is the point.

Ah, right. So, you're saying that all recycled copper wire in Japan was
of the utmost purity? What a load of cock.

tony sayer wrote:
In article , Grimly
Curmudgeon scribeth thus
We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember The Natural Philosopher
saying something like:

I put this
down to the re-cycling of scrap copper, with impurities above the level
that would have been acceptable in Europe.

NO.

I suspect its a subspecies of this:

http://www.barbadosrc.org/misc/blackwire.php

which is well known, if not so well understood.
Which doesn't address the problem in cars. At all.

I suspect myself its electrochemical attack of copper due to three
things: damp, a salt, and a voltage.
And **** wire.

Some impurity surely?.

After all Copper is copper its what's mixed in with it ?...
exactly.

Needs to be mixed with pretty high levels of some corrosive salt or acid
before its gonna do it in.

and re-smelting will slag that out mostly.

Grimly Curmudgeon wrote:
We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember The Natural Philosopher
saying something like:

I suspect myself its electrochemical attack of copper due to three
things: damp, a salt, and a voltage.
And **** wire.
No. Not **** wire.

Which is the point.

Ah, right. So, you're saying that all recycled copper wire in Japan was
of the utmost purity? What a load of cock.

No, I am saying its inconceivable that corrosive agents, rather than
mere traces of other metals,. would survive re-smelting.

The Natural Philosopher gurgled happily, sounding
much like they were saying:

Ah, right. So, you're saying that all recycled copper wire in Japan was
of the utmost purity? What a load of cock.

No, I am saying its inconceivable that corrosive agents, rather than
mere traces of other metals,. would survive re-smelting.

You'd be wrong.

Back in the late '80s, Citroen had a lot of problems with the cylinder
blocks on diesel turbo CXs going porous, between the combustion chambers
& water jacket. Turned out to be poor quality recycled scrap being used
by the foundry in India - which was also used by M-B and BMW, but for
some reason they seemed to escape. Mebbe better quality control, mebbe
just that those cars were more likely to use distilled water rather than
tap water in the coolant, so the impurities didn't corrode out.

Either way - the cause was exactly what you say is "inconceivable". ****
that survived re-smelting.

On 14/06/2010 12:37, Jim wrote:


Interesting.

My Audi currently has a problem with the Airbag ECU which leads to the
airbag light being permanently on. We got it diagnosed


Sure it's not the clock-spring ( rotary coupler ) to the steering-wheel
air-bag?

That's the usual thing...

--
Ron

Adrian wrote:
The Natural Philosopher gurgled happily, sounding
much like they were saying:

Ah, right. So, you're saying that all recycled copper wire in Japan was
of the utmost purity? What a load of cock.

No, I am saying its inconceivable that corrosive agents, rather than
mere traces of other metals,. would survive re-smelting.

You'd be wrong.

Back in the late '80s, Citroen had a lot of problems with the cylinder
blocks on diesel turbo CXs going porous, between the combustion chambers
& water jacket. Turned out to be poor quality recycled scrap being used
by the foundry in India - which was also used by M-B and BMW, but for
some reason they seemed to escape. Mebbe better quality control, mebbe
just that those cars were more likely to use distilled water rather than
tap water in the coolant, so the impurities didn't corrode out.

aluminium melts at a rather diferent temperature top copper

Cylinder heads are cast.


Copper wire is drawn.


Apples are not oranges.

Either way - the cause was exactly what you say is "inconceivable". ****
that survived re-smelting.

Believe your own BS then

The Natural Philosopher gurgled happily, sounding
much like they were saying:

Ah, right. So, you're saying that all recycled copper wire in Japan
was of the utmost purity? What a load of cock.

No, I am saying its inconceivable that corrosive agents, rather than
mere traces of other metals,. would survive re-smelting.

You'd be wrong.

Back in the late '80s, Citroen had a lot of problems with the cylinder
blocks on diesel turbo CXs going porous, between the combustion
chambers & water jacket. Turned out to be poor quality recycled scrap
being used by the foundry in India - which was also used by M-B and
BMW, but for some reason they seemed to escape. Mebbe better quality
control, mebbe just that those cars were more likely to use distilled
water rather than tap water in the coolant, so the impurities didn't
corrode out.

aluminium melts at a rather diferent temperature top copper
Cylinder heads are cast.

Which is all very nice, but we're talking about cast iron blocks.

Oh, and iron melts about 500degC hotter than copper, so - if anything -
you'd think that the impurities would be more likely to burn out, not
less.

Either way - the cause was exactly what you say is "inconceivable".
**** that survived re-smelting.

Believe your own BS then

shrug
Is it casting sand that you have your head in?

We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember Adrian
saying something like:

shrug
Is it casting sand that you have your head in?

No point. Even when he's wrong and realises it, he continues to bull****
and bluster, or even just drops it entirely in the hope you won't raise
it again.
****ing amazing character though. Knows absolutely everything about the
world.

In cam.misc Tim Watts wrote:
On Mon, 14 Jun 2010 12:48:48 +0100, "Mark"
wibbled:

If anyone has any pointers to a source of Infineon chips in small
quantities, please say so.

digikey?

Phone up Infineon's distributor and ask for a sample?

(What's the part number, OOI?)

Theo

On 18/06/2010 22:58, Ron Lowe wrote:
On 14/06/2010 12:37, Jim wrote:
Interesting.

My Audi currently has a problem with the Airbag ECU which leads to the
airbag light being permanently on. We got it diagnosed


Sure it's not the clock-spring ( rotary coupler ) to the steering-wheel
air-bag?

That's the usual thing...

Unfortunately not, it's been hooked up to VAG-COM and gives error 65535
"Internal Control Module Memory Error".

On Tue, 22 Jun 2010 17:55:09 +0100, Jim wrote:

On 18/06/2010 22:58, Ron Lowe wrote:
On 14/06/2010 12:37, Jim wrote:
Interesting.

My Audi currently has a problem with the Airbag ECU which leads to the
airbag light being permanently on. We got it diagnosed


Sure it's not the clock-spring ( rotary coupler ) to the steering-wheel
air-bag?

That's the usual thing...

Unfortunately not, it's been hooked up to VAG-COM and gives error 65535
"Internal Control Module Memory Error".

Dull. You could try asking BBA