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For those with Car ABS and ECU problems;!..
Might be of interest to those who do their own car DIY. We run, as a second car, an elderly Volvo 850 estate and apart from being quite old (1996) she still runs fine and is quite adequate for what we need. However the MOT test the other day threw up that the ABS light wasn't behaving quite as it ought and the TRACS system wasn't quite what it should be either, and a diagnostic test showed the ABS controller was reporting that the hydraulic pump was U/S apart from other misc faults. Much shaking of heads at the small local garage and lots of whistling thru the teeth that its going to cost yer a small fortune as a new one at the Volvo dealer will be a lot more then what the cars ever worth, so off to the scrap heap for the 850 :-(. Thats until a web search threw up, http://www.ecutesting.com/ Unit returned for testing and as they expected found to be faulty with all the usual faults they have. Kept informed by several texts of the progress and unit very quickly returned with a bill for £145 plus VAT. Refitted unit, cured the problem completely and car now back in service and should be OK for sometime yet. Seems this is the new way that older cars die off now with "electronic problems" this one still mechanically fine at 150K miles not bit a bit of rust anywhere, so good result all around. No connection apart from being a very satisfied customer etc:)... -- Tony Sayer |
For those with Car ABS and ECU problems;!..
Unit returned for testing and as they expected found to be faulty with all the usual faults they have... What sort of faults? Other than dodgy connections, what faults can these presumably all-digital units develop? Or are there analogue/ power electronics in there that fail/drift out of spec? |
For those with Car ABS and ECU problems;!..
Is now a good time to tell you that many recent ECU are conformance
coated or encapsulated so as to prevent "intellectual property theft"? Therein rendering a car a writeoff with a diagnostic & replacement ECU bill of 3500+? |
For those with Car ABS and ECU problems;!..
In article
s.com, js.b1 scribeth thus Is now a good time to tell you that many recent ECU are conformance coated or encapsulated so as to prevent "intellectual property theft"? Therein rendering a car a writeoff with a diagnostic & replacement ECU bill of 3500+? Well it seems that some ECU's are coded to the car but then again the firm I refer to seems to be coping very well with recent "electronic" units and there are others doing the same thing. I don't think that there're at all interested in IPT just getting the hapless motorist back on the road at an affordable price;!.. -- Tony Sayer |
For those with Car ABS and ECU problems;!..
|
For those with Car ABS and ECU problems;!..
js.b1 wrote:
Is now a good time to tell you that many recent ECU are conformance coated or encapsulated so as to prevent "intellectual property theft"? Therein rendering a car a writeoff with a diagnostic& replacement ECU bill of 3500+? Might you be confusing 'conformance coating' with conformal coating? The latter is a protection against some environmental effects such as humidity and as a secondary effect makes them a little more difficult to trace the circuitry and needs local stripping to repair. Bob |
For those with Car ABS and ECU problems;!..
"tony sayer" wrote in message ... In article s.com, js.b1 scribeth thus Is now a good time to tell you that many recent ECU are conformance coated or encapsulated so as to prevent "intellectual property theft"? Therein rendering a car a writeoff with a diagnostic & replacement ECU bill of 3500+? Well it seems that some ECU's are coded to the car but then again the firm I refer to seems to be coping very well with recent "electronic" units and there are others doing the same thing. I don't think that there're at all interested in IPT just getting the hapless motorist back on the road at an affordable price;!.. Tony 1 System nil :-) -- ¦zulu¦ VIP |
For those with Car ABS and ECU problems;!..
On Jun 13, 2:31*pm, Bob Minchin
wrote: Might you be confusing 'conformance coating' with conformal coating? The latter is a protection against some environmental effects such as humidity and as a secondary effect makes them a little more difficult to trace the circuitry and needs local stripping to repair. The coating, or in some cases potting, was non-removable. It was found on recent common rail turbo diesel, when challenged the argument was that it was to protect software intellectual property. It is true that every car maker strips & reverse engineers its competitors products right down to software. The car concerned was written off (the bill exceeded 5500), interestingly the insurers paid out. The ability to repair car computers is very important - it is not unknown for spares to go unavailable. Citreon did this IIRC with ABS systems on the XM, and it may happen again where manufacturers move from independent computers to integrated computers to bus system. Not sure I would want a Saab with a view to very long term ownership for example, but repairable makes all the difference. As long as it is not potted, it is repairable if necessary scavaging parts from another ECU if they are unmarked or indecipherable. The motor industry of course would love "sealed field replaceable units" and does do that with certain parts, eg, no ring gear separate from the flywheel - you have to buy the flywheel, not so bad when a lump of cast iron but costly when DMF. Always amusing to see £135 oxygen sensor, and some cars used to have as many as 6, when a generic could be had for £100 less. Still amazed at the ripoff of hall effect switch re ABS, crankshaft, distributor etc. Then again some charge £250-450 for software updates which I find quite outrageous. Who do they think they are... Microsoft :-) |
For those with Car ABS and ECU problems;!..
|
For those with Car ABS and ECU problems;!..
"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message ... wrote: Unit returned for testing and as they expected found to be faulty with all the usual faults they have... What sort of faults? Other than dodgy connections, what faults can these presumably all-digital units develop? Or are there analogue/ power electronics in there that fail/drift out of spec? I think the latter is likely to be the case. I remember hiring a Ford once: halfway to where I was going te dashboard quit. I phoned up teh car hire, who told me to carry on. No speedo, no gauges, nada! I found an AA man parked by the road side and asked him ..."bad earth on it, hit it with the heel of your 'and'" Voila!. crap car. Good advice. Absolutely. First rule of electronic repair, hit it. if that doesn't work, hit it again, harder. When you are as experienced as me you will do this without prompting :) -- Graham. %Profound_observation% |
For those with Car ABS and ECU problems;!..
js.b1 wrote:
The ability to repair car computers is very important - it is not unknown for spares to go unavailable. Citreon did this IIRC with ABS systems on the XM, and it may happen again where manufacturers move from independent computers to integrated computers to bus system. Not sure I would want a Saab with a view to very long term ownership for example, but repairable makes all the difference. As long as it is not potted, it is repairable if necessary scavaging parts from another ECU if they are unmarked or indecipherable. The motor industry of course would love "sealed field replaceable units" and does do that with certain parts, eg, no ring gear separate from the flywheel - you have to buy the flywheel, not so bad when a lump of cast iron but costly when DMF. Always amusing to see £135 oxygen sensor, and some cars used to have as many as 6, when a generic could be had for £100 less. Still amazed at the ripoff of hall effect switch re ABS, crankshaft, distributor etc. Then again some charge £250-450 for software updates which I find quite outrageous. Who do they think they are... Microsoft :-) It's so important that I think there should be legislation that units are economically repairable and parts available, else subsequent ownership become an increasingly uneconomic prospect and we have to recycle earlier than should be the case. With so much concern over waste energy, allowing manufacturer to falsely inflate demand in this way is stupidly counter-productive. Likewise with boilers, that are unnecessarily complex and therefore short-lived in comparison with their predecessors. The fuel savings are lost in increased maintenance, manufacture and replacement costs. Andy C |
For those with Car ABS and ECU problems;!..
On Jun 13, 4:16*pm, Andy Cap wrote:
It's so important that I think there should be legislation that units are economically repairable and parts available, else subsequent ownership become an increasingly uneconomic prospect and we have to recycle earlier than should be the case. With so much concern over waste energy, allowing manufacturer to falsely inflate demand in this way is stupidly counter-productive. Likewise with boilers, that are unnecessarily complex and therefore short-lived in comparison with their predecessors. The fuel savings are lost in increased maintenance, manufacture and replacement costs. That logic was lost on the scrappage scheme... .... or fluorescent light bulb mercury waste... .... or photovoltaic subsidy... There is a 10yr rule re car parts in EU, however I believe there is a "get out". |
For those with Car ABS and ECU problems;!..
In message , tony sayer
writes In article s.com, scribeth thus Unit returned for testing and as they expected found to be faulty with all the usual faults they have... What sort of faults? Other than dodgy connections, what faults can these presumably all-digital units develop? Or are there analogue/ power electronics in there that fail/drift out of spec? Well if its like the PCB in our Suprima boiler its simple dry joint problems with the odd resistor being of a too low rating but then again an exchange one there has seen that working fine again:-).. Just because its digital doesn't make it free from fault's all!.. ECUs seem to be made to last, they have well built pcbs and are well conformally coated with plated through holes The Suprima pcb, on the other hand ... -- geoff |
For those with Car ABS and ECU problems;!..
On 13/06/2010 16:14, Graham. wrote:
"The Natural wrote in message ... wrote: Unit returned for testing and as they expected found to be faulty with all the usual faults they have... What sort of faults? Other than dodgy connections, what faults can these presumably all-digital units develop? Or are there analogue/ power electronics in there that fail/drift out of spec? I think the latter is likely to be the case. I remember hiring a Ford once: halfway to where I was going te dashboard quit. I phoned up teh car hire, who told me to carry on. No speedo, no gauges, nada! I found an AA man parked by the road side and asked him ..."bad earth on it, hit it with the heel of your 'and'" Voila!. crap car. Good advice. Absolutely. First rule of electronic repair, hit it. if that doesn't work, hit it again, harder. When you are as experienced as me you will do this without prompting :) I have one of the last of the Rover cars that I bought just before they collapsed. It has a digital clock and traffic master built in. The clock has failed to display the full time for a while now and the traffic master display is going the same way. I know what the problem is, but the garage tell me that to get the display out will cost me an arm and a leg. I plan to get a Pifco massager on it to remove/disturb the crud that is causing the problem. Dave |
For those with Car ABS and ECU problems;!..
On 13/06/2010 16:14, Graham. wrote:
"hit it with the heel of your 'and'" Absolutely. First rule of electronic repair, hit it. if that doesn't work, hit it again, harder. When you are as experienced as me you will do this without prompting :) Absolutely. In our electronics lab where we maintain *very* expensive electronic and electro/hydraulic equipment, whacking things with a rubber hammer is a standard fault-finding technique. The vast majority of faults are not fancy electronic failures. 90% are mechanical, connector, chaffed wire, etc. Of the remaining 10% electronic problems, 90% of those are PSU-related. Only a very small percentage is actual gubbins-failure. -- Ron |
For those with Car ABS and ECU problems;!..
In article , geoff
scribeth thus In message , tony sayer writes In article s.com, scribeth thus Unit returned for testing and as they expected found to be faulty with all the usual faults they have... What sort of faults? Other than dodgy connections, what faults can these presumably all-digital units develop? Or are there analogue/ power electronics in there that fail/drift out of spec? Well if its like the PCB in our Suprima boiler its simple dry joint problems with the odd resistor being of a too low rating but then again an exchange one there has seen that working fine again:-).. Just because its digital doesn't make it free from fault's all!.. ECUs seem to be made to last, they have well built pcbs and are well conformally coated with plated through holes The Suprima pcb, on the other hand ... Now don't bite the hand that feeds you;!... -- Tony Sayer |
For those with Car ABS and ECU problems;!..
Andy Cap wrote:
js.b1 wrote: The ability to repair car computers is very important - it is not unknown for spares to go unavailable. Citreon did this IIRC with ABS systems on the XM, and it may happen again where manufacturers move from independent computers to integrated computers to bus system. Not sure I would want a Saab with a view to very long term ownership for example, but repairable makes all the difference. As long as it is not potted, it is repairable if necessary scavaging parts from another ECU if they are unmarked or indecipherable. The motor industry of course would love "sealed field replaceable units" and does do that with certain parts, eg, no ring gear separate from the flywheel - you have to buy the flywheel, not so bad when a lump of cast iron but costly when DMF. Always amusing to see £135 oxygen sensor, and some cars used to have as many as 6, when a generic could be had for £100 less. Still amazed at the ripoff of hall effect switch re ABS, crankshaft, distributor etc. Then again some charge £250-450 for software updates which I find quite outrageous. Who do they think they are... Microsoft :-) It's so important that I think there should be legislation that units are economically repairable and parts available, else subsequent ownership become an increasingly uneconomic prospect and we have to recycle earlier than should be the case. There is a law. Not sure how it applies to electro9niucs BUT it has been European law for some time that manufacturers must make their drawings and specifications available for 3rd party manufacturers. So that standard parts like bearings, tyres, shocks, springs clutches brake linings etc can be 3rd party sourced. Whether its worthwhile for e.g. ECU stuff is a moot point. BUT there are really only 5 ECU manufacturers IIRC, the rest is all mappings to specific car/engine combinations. I.e. software. With so much concern over waste energy, allowing manufacturer to falsely inflate demand in this way is stupidly counter-productive. Likewise with boilers, that are unnecessarily complex and therefore short-lived in comparison with their predecessors. The fuel savings are lost in increased maintenance, manufacture and replacement costs. cant comment on boilers. Sounds like a good case for after market open source replacement controllers :-) Andy C |
For those with Car ABS and ECU problems;!..
Ron Lowe wrote:
On 13/06/2010 16:14, Graham. wrote: "hit it with the heel of your 'and'" Absolutely. First rule of electronic repair, hit it. if that doesn't work, hit it again, harder. When you are as experienced as me you will do this without prompting :) Absolutely. In our electronics lab where we maintain *very* expensive electronic and electro/hydraulic equipment, whacking things with a rubber hammer is a standard fault-finding technique. The vast majority of faults are not fancy electronic failures. 90% are mechanical, connector, chaffed wire, etc. Of the remaining 10% electronic problems, 90% of those are PSU-related. Only a very small percentage is actual gubbins-failure. yeah. The chips never go: the connectors always do. My In laws had a rover ..and teh windows winders packed up - he left te window open and it gotr wet. He got a replacement from a scrappy, but it wasn't quite the same. I opened up the old unit, and washed it in acetone to get the crud out, then went to work with contact cleaner on all the corrosion, and eventually it worked again. |
For those with Car ABS and ECU problems;!..
In message , The Natural Philosopher
writes Andy Cap wrote: js.b1 wrote: The ability to repair car computers is very important - it is not unknown for spares to go unavailable. Citreon did this IIRC with ABS systems on the XM, and it may happen again where manufacturers move from independent computers to integrated computers to bus system. Not sure I would want a Saab with a view to very long term ownership for example, but repairable makes all the difference. As long as it is not potted, it is repairable if necessary scavaging parts from another ECU if they are unmarked or indecipherable. The motor industry of course would love "sealed field replaceable units" and does do that with certain parts, eg, no ring gear separate from the flywheel - you have to buy the flywheel, not so bad when a lump of cast iron but costly when DMF. Always amusing to see £135 oxygen sensor, and some cars used to have as many as 6, when a generic could be had for £100 less. Still amazed at the ripoff of hall effect switch re ABS, crankshaft, distributor etc. Then again some charge £250-450 for software updates which I find quite outrageous. Who do they think they are... Microsoft :-) It's so important that I think there should be legislation that units are economically repairable and parts available, else subsequent ownership become an increasingly uneconomic prospect and we have to recycle earlier than should be the case. There is a law. Not sure how it applies to electro9niucs BUT it has been European law for some time that manufacturers must make their drawings and specifications available for 3rd party manufacturers. So that standard parts like bearings, tyres, shocks, springs clutches brake linings etc can be 3rd party sourced. Whether its worthwhile for e.g. ECU stuff is a moot point. BUT there are really only 5 ECU manufacturers IIRC, the rest is all mappings to specific car/engine combinations. I.e. software. With so much concern over waste energy, allowing manufacturer to falsely inflate demand in this way is stupidly counter-productive. Likewise with boilers, that are unnecessarily complex and therefore short-lived in comparison with their predecessors. The fuel savings are lost in increased maintenance, manufacture and replacement costs. cant comment on boilers. Sounds like a good case for after market open source replacement controllers :-) Not really The problem lies with insurance If a boiler goes up because of e.g. Explosive ignition, the manufacturers would jump on the 3rd party control Fitting non standard parts to a boiler has the potential to invalidate the warranty. That's why I'm very careful to repair and not modify, even if there is an obvious improvement to be made -- geoff |
For those with Car ABS and ECU problems;!..
geoff wrote:
Not really The problem lies with insurance If a boiler goes up because of e.g. Explosive ignition, the manufacturers would jump on the 3rd party control Fitting non standard parts to a boiler has the potential to invalidate the warranty. That's why I'm very careful to repair and not modify, even if there is an obvious improvement to be made I'm really not convinced that the risk from faulty boiler parts is higher than that from faulty car parts. Andy |
For those with Car ABS and ECU problems;!..
On Sun, 13 Jun 2010 05:18:22 -0700 (PDT), " wrote:
Unit returned for testing and as they expected found to be faulty with all the usual faults they have... What sort of faults? Other than dodgy connections, what faults can these presumably all-digital units develop? Or are there analogue/ power electronics in there that fail/drift out of spec? Volvo ABS ECU's from the 90's (late 850, early V70) were notorious for having dry joints. See http://www.volvoforums.org.uk/showthread.php?t=72655 for instructions on how to fix the unit Rick... (The other Rick) |
For those with Car ABS and ECU problems;!..
In message , Andy Champ
writes geoff wrote: Not really The problem lies with insurance If a boiler goes up because of e.g. Explosive ignition, the manufacturers would jump on the 3rd party control Fitting non standard parts to a boiler has the potential to invalidate the warranty. That's why I'm very careful to repair and not modify, even if there is an obvious improvement to be made I'm really not convinced that the risk from faulty boiler parts is higher than that from faulty car parts. I didn't say it was higher I said that there were implications another point I have just thought of is that it is one thing to fit a pattern part yourself, but I doubt you would find many fitters who would do it for you For that reason alone, there is little chance of them being made in sufficient quantities to make them cheaply enough Several have tried, and failed -- geoff |
For those with Car ABS and ECU problems;!..
On Sun, 13 Jun 2010 18:11:45 +0100, Ron Lowe wrote:
The vast majority of faults are not fancy electronic failures. 90% are mechanical, connector, chaffed wire, etc. Of the remaining 10% electronic problems, 90% of those are PSU-related. Only a very small percentage is actual gubbins-failure. I like that breakdown, it's about right. I'd add that a lot of the rare actual gubbins failures can be put down to the PSU throwing a wobbly or a spike/dip in the supply. If stuff survives the first few days or weeks of regular use it will essentially last forever. Always assuming that it has been designed well, no components right up at the top of their power rating with inadequate methods of removing the heat resulting in scorched circuit boards and weakend joints after a year or three of use or simple component failure due to being under too much stress. -- Cheers Dave. |
For those with Car ABS and ECU problems;!..
In message o.uk, Dave
Liquorice writes On Sun, 13 Jun 2010 18:11:45 +0100, Ron Lowe wrote: The vast majority of faults are not fancy electronic failures. 90% are mechanical, connector, chaffed wire, etc. Of the remaining 10% electronic problems, 90% of those are PSU-related. Only a very small percentage is actual gubbins-failure. I like that breakdown, it's about right. I'd add that a lot of the rare actual gubbins failures can be put down to the PSU throwing a wobbly or a spike/dip in the supply. If stuff survives the first few days or weeks of regular use it will essentially last forever. Always assuming that it has been designed well, no components right up at the top of their power rating with inadequate methods of removing the heat resulting in scorched circuit boards and weakend joints after a year or three of use or simple component failure due to being under too much stress. Lovely sweeping statements based on invalid assumptions there -- geoff |
For those with Car ABS and ECU problems;!..
geoff wrote:
In message o.uk, Dave Liquorice writes If stuff survives the first few days or weeks of regular use it will essentially last forever. Always assuming that it has been designed well, no components right up at the top of their power rating with inadequate methods of removing the heat resulting in scorched circuit boards and weakend joints after a year or three of use or simple component failure due to being under too much stress. Lovely sweeping statements based on invalid assumptions there Not at all. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bathtub_curve |
For those with Car ABS and ECU problems;!..
In message , geoff
writes In message o.uk, Dave Liquorice writes On Sun, 13 Jun 2010 18:11:45 +0100, Ron Lowe wrote: The vast majority of faults are not fancy electronic failures. 90% are mechanical, connector, chaffed wire, etc. Of the remaining 10% electronic problems, 90% of those are PSU-related. Only a very small percentage is actual gubbins-failure. I like that breakdown, it's about right. I'd add that a lot of the rare actual gubbins failures can be put down to the PSU throwing a wobbly or a spike/dip in the supply. If stuff survives the first few days or weeks of regular use it will essentially last forever. Always assuming that it has been designed well, no components right up at the top of their power rating with inadequate methods of removing the heat resulting in scorched circuit boards and weakend joints after a year or three of use or simple component failure due to being under too much stress. Lovely sweeping statements based on invalid assumptions there I'm very glad to find there are so many ECU experts present as I just happen to have a *dead* '97 Golf Gti obstructing one of my barns. Progress so far has been limited to joining the VW forum. I have some hay to cut but I will be back:-) regards -- Tim Lamb |
For those with Car ABS and ECU problems;!..
On Mon, 14 Jun 2010 00:34:12 +0100, "Dave Liquorice"
wibbled: On Sun, 13 Jun 2010 18:11:45 +0100, Ron Lowe wrote: The vast majority of faults are not fancy electronic failures. 90% are mechanical, connector, chaffed wire, etc. Of the remaining 10% electronic problems, 90% of those are PSU-related. Only a very small percentage is actual gubbins-failure. I like that breakdown, it's about right. I'd add that a lot of the rare actual gubbins failures can be put down to the PSU throwing a wobbly or a spike/dip in the supply. If stuff survives the first few days or weeks of regular use it will essentially last forever. Always assuming that it has been designed well, no components right up at the top of their power rating with inadequate methods of removing the heat resulting in scorched circuit boards and weakend joints after a year or three of use or simple component failure due to being under too much stress. Electrolytic capacitors a a weak point - they tend to be vulnerable to failure before other components IME. But even silicon doesn't survive forever. -- Tim Watts Managers, politicians and environmentalists: Nature's carbon buffer. |
For those with Car ABS and ECU problems;!..
In article , Rick... (The
other Rick) scribeth thus On Sun, 13 Jun 2010 05:18:22 -0700 (PDT), " wrote: Unit returned for testing and as they expected found to be faulty with all the usual faults they have... What sort of faults? Other than dodgy connections, what faults can these presumably all-digital units develop? Or are there analogue/ power electronics in there that fail/drift out of spec? Volvo ABS ECU's from the 90's (late 850, early V70) were notorious for having dry joints. See http://www.volvoforums.org.uk/showthread.php?t=72655 for instructions on how to fix the unit Rick... (The other Rick) Well.. We got as far as prising off the spring clips then decided that we might damage it if we went further getting it open then we'd be in the replacement game rather then repair. So all in all the charge for repair wasn't that bad as we've spent sod all on parts for this particular car anyway and we needed it back on the road so .. But under any other circumstances I'd have had a go but I can't see your average small time garage doing this sort of repair doubt they'd have a soldering iron that small for a start;!.. But further articles indicate that there is a growing market for electronic assembly replacements on cars which I suppose is simply market driven by the demand and the silly prices for new manufacturer replacements and the growing use of electronic assemblies. It seems for instance that the firm I referred to spend as much time repairing electronic dashboards as much else!... -- Tony Sayer |
For those with Car ABS and ECU problems;!..
In article , Tim Watts
scribeth thus On Mon, 14 Jun 2010 00:34:12 +0100, "Dave Liquorice" wibbled: On Sun, 13 Jun 2010 18:11:45 +0100, Ron Lowe wrote: The vast majority of faults are not fancy electronic failures. 90% are mechanical, connector, chaffed wire, etc. Of the remaining 10% electronic problems, 90% of those are PSU-related. Only a very small percentage is actual gubbins-failure. I like that breakdown, it's about right. I'd add that a lot of the rare actual gubbins failures can be put down to the PSU throwing a wobbly or a spike/dip in the supply. If stuff survives the first few days or weeks of regular use it will essentially last forever. Always assuming that it has been designed well, no components right up at the top of their power rating with inadequate methods of removing the heat resulting in scorched circuit boards and weakend joints after a year or three of use or simple component failure due to being under too much stress. Electrolytic capacitors a a weak point - they tend to be vulnerable to failure before other components IME. But even silicon doesn't survive forever. Proof;?... -- Tony Sayer |
For those with Car ABS and ECU problems;!..
In article ,
tony sayer wrote: But further articles indicate that there is a growing market for electronic assembly replacements on cars which I suppose is simply market driven by the demand and the silly prices for new manufacturer replacements and the growing use of electronic assemblies. It seems for instance that the firm I referred to spend as much time repairing electronic dashboards as much else!... Snag comes in with multi layer PCBs. Makes many repairs near impossible. -- *Young at heart -- slightly older in other places Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
For those with Car ABS and ECU problems;!..
On 14 Jun 2010 08:32:51 GMT, Huge wrote:
If stuff survives the first few days or weeks of regular use it will essentially last forever. Err, no. Not for nothing is it called "bathtub curve". I said "essentially". The bottom of the bathtub in my experiance is longer than the useful life of the kit. ie the kit is well superceeded before it fails. -- Cheers Dave. |
For those with Car ABS and ECU problems;!..
In article , Dave Plowman (News)
scribeth thus In article , tony sayer wrote: But further articles indicate that there is a growing market for electronic assembly replacements on cars which I suppose is simply market driven by the demand and the silly prices for new manufacturer replacements and the growing use of electronic assemblies. It seems for instance that the firm I referred to spend as much time repairing electronic dashboards as much else!... Snag comes in with multi layer PCBs. Makes many repairs near impossible. I suppose.. It depends on what sort of faults there are?. Seems on the unit I had done these might be simple dry joints but I wonder if there are that many faults due to the multi layer PCB anyway?. -- Tony Sayer |
For those with Car ABS and ECU problems;!..
In article o.uk, Dave
Liquorice scribeth thus On 14 Jun 2010 08:32:51 GMT, Huge wrote: If stuff survives the first few days or weeks of regular use it will essentially last forever. Err, no. Not for nothing is it called "bathtub curve". I said "essentially". The bottom of the bathtub in my experiance is longer than the useful life of the kit. ie the kit is well superceeded before it fails. Thats prolly what should happen in this case, after all not that many would see a 15 Y/O Volvo as a "desirable" motah!. Though it seems this one has just made it into the high mileage owners club, the entry level of which is 150,000 miles some it seems have topped the Million mark;!... http://www.volvoclub.org.uk/hmc/index.shtml -- Tony Sayer |
For those with Car ABS and ECU problems;!..
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article , tony sayer wrote: But further articles indicate that there is a growing market for electronic assembly replacements on cars which I suppose is simply market driven by the demand and the silly prices for new manufacturer replacements and the growing use of electronic assemblies. It seems for instance that the firm I referred to spend as much time repairing electronic dashboards as much else!... Snag comes in with multi layer PCBs. Makes many repairs near impossible. not if you have the correct desoldering tools. |
For those with Car ABS and ECU problems;!..
On Jun 14, 1:17*am, geoff wrote:
In message o.uk, Dave Liquorice writes On Sun, 13 Jun 2010 18:11:45 +0100, Ron Lowe wrote: The vast majority of faults are not fancy electronic failures. 90% are mechanical, connector, chaffed wire, etc. Of the remaining 10% electronic problems, 90% of those are PSU-related. Only a very small percentage is actual gubbins-failure. I like that breakdown, it's about right. I'd add that a lot of the rare actual gubbins failures can be put down to the PSU throwing a wobbly or a spike/dip in the supply. If stuff survives the first few days or weeks of regular use it will essentially last forever. Always assuming that it has been designed well, no components right up at the top of their power rating with inadequate methods of removing the heat resulting in scorched circuit boards and weakend joints after a year or three of use or simple component failure due to being under too much stress. Lovely sweeping statements based on invalid assumptions there Pretty accurate actually. MBQ |
For those with Car ABS and ECU problems;!..
tony sayer wrote:
In article , Dave Plowman (News) scribeth thus In article , tony sayer wrote: But further articles indicate that there is a growing market for electronic assembly replacements on cars which I suppose is simply market driven by the demand and the silly prices for new manufacturer replacements and the growing use of electronic assemblies. It seems for instance that the firm I referred to spend as much time repairing electronic dashboards as much else!... Snag comes in with multi layer PCBs. Makes many repairs near impossible. I suppose.. It depends on what sort of faults there are?. Seems on the unit I had done these might be simple dry joints but I wonder if there are that many faults due to the multi layer PCB anyway?. not IME. more reliable than the cheaper alternatives of pop rivets through the boards and a dip in a solder bath. Connectors Capacitors and Corrosion is the usual list of suspects. |
For those with Car ABS and ECU problems;!..
On Jun 14, 9:42*am, Tim Watts wrote:
On Mon, 14 Jun 2010 00:34:12 +0100, "Dave Liquorice" wibbled: On Sun, 13 Jun 2010 18:11:45 +0100, Ron Lowe wrote: The vast majority of faults are not fancy electronic failures. 90% are mechanical, connector, chaffed wire, etc. Of the remaining 10% electronic problems, 90% of those are PSU-related. Only a very small percentage is actual gubbins-failure. I like that breakdown, it's about right. I'd add that a lot of the rare actual gubbins failures can be put down to the PSU throwing a wobbly or a spike/dip in the supply. If stuff survives the first few days or weeks of regular use it will essentially last forever. Always assuming that it has been designed well, no components right up at the top of their power rating with inadequate methods of removing the heat resulting in scorched circuit boards and weakend joints after a year or three of use or simple component failure due to being under too much stress. Electrolytic capacitors a a weak point - they tend to be vulnerable to failure before other components IME. Not if tye correct parts are specified at the design stage and assuming you buy from a reputable supplier so that you actually get those parts. The latter is one of the major differences between cheap as chips stuff and expensive automotive grade stuff. But even silicon doesn't survive forever. Essentially, again if specc'ed correctly and sourced from a manufacturer who know what they are doing. MBQ |
For those with Car ABS and ECU problems;!..
On Jun 13, 11:07*pm, Brian Morrison wrote:
On Sun, 13 Jun 2010 15:58:07 +0100 The Natural Philosopher wrote: I remember hiring a Ford once: halfway to where I was going te dashboard quit. I phoned up teh car hire, who told me to carry on. No speedo, no gauges, nada! I found an AA man parked by the road side and asked him ..."bad earth on it, hit it with the heel of your 'and'" Voila!. Yes. Every now and then my Vauxhall suffers from crazy dash, where all the indicators show bizarre changing patterns and the dials wander around randomly. The cure is to stop, then disconnect and reconnect the ABS unit electrical connector a few times, for some reason despite being well protected from the elements the wiping contacts inside it become intermittent and need a few wipes to make them work again. Problems can occur if the two halves of the contact are not correctly specified and use dissimilar materials, e.g. one gold plates and one tim plated. MBQ |
For those with Car ABS and ECU problems;!..
Man at B&Q wrote:
On Jun 14, 1:17 am, geoff wrote: In message o.uk, Dave Liquorice writes On Sun, 13 Jun 2010 18:11:45 +0100, Ron Lowe wrote: The vast majority of faults are not fancy electronic failures. 90% are mechanical, connector, chaffed wire, etc. Of the remaining 10% electronic problems, 90% of those are PSU-related. Only a very small percentage is actual gubbins-failure. I like that breakdown, it's about right. I'd add that a lot of the rare actual gubbins failures can be put down to the PSU throwing a wobbly or a spike/dip in the supply. If stuff survives the first few days or weeks of regular use it will essentially last forever. Always assuming that it has been designed well, no components right up at the top of their power rating with inadequate methods of removing the heat resulting in scorched circuit boards and weakend joints after a year or three of use or simple component failure due to being under too much stress. Lovely sweeping statements based on invalid assumptions there Pretty accurate actually. Yes, teh failure of units is initially high, due to incorrect manufacturing: post that the failure modes are ageing, with mechanicals being the first to go, then usually electrolytics drying out as a second, and finally heats stress on circuitry that eventually breaks seals, or allows doping levels to migrate in over stressed semiconductors, and Phut. BUT if well designed, 30-50 years is very achievable once production errors are accounted for. mechanical issues like corrosion are far more likely to take stuff down than actual component failure. MBQ |
For those with Car ABS and ECU problems;!..
On Jun 14, 10:51*am, "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote: In article , * *tony sayer wrote: But further articles indicate that there is a growing market for electronic assembly replacements on cars which I suppose is simply market driven by the demand and the silly prices for new manufacturer replacements and the growing use of electronic assemblies. It seems for instance that the firm I referred to spend as much time repairing electronic dashboards as much else!... Snag comes in with multi layer PCBs. Makes many repairs near impossible. Piece of p**s with the right equipment, even BGA replacement. MBQ |
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