The boiler stopped working. I've had a local heating engineer looking
at it. He diagnosed a noisy pump and dodgy fire valve, both of which
have been replaced. Now there is simply no oil being sucked from the
tank. He checked the filters at the oil tank and while they are a bit
dirty, they shouldn't stop oil getting through.(There was oil in both
the filter housings.) He tested that the pump was working by feeding
oil from a separate small cannister of heating oil. It works fine
then. But as soon as the tube is connected back on to the feed pipe
(to the tank) and the boiler started again, there is no fuel coming
through. Zilch. The tank has at least 150 litres in it. The level,
observed through the filler hole, is a good 6 inches above the outlet.

I have now arranged for a different firm to come out, since I don't
have confidence any longer in the original chap. Could the pipe be
blocked? (I mean, from the tank to the boiler.) It's plastic-coated
10mm copper. I'm at my wit's end now, since it's already cost £200 for
the pump and the fire valve. Any advice most welcome.

MM

"MM" wrote in message
...
The boiler stopped working. I've had a local heating engineer looking
at it. He diagnosed a noisy pump and dodgy fire valve, both of which
have been replaced. Now there is simply no oil being sucked from the
tank. He checked the filters at the oil tank and while they are a bit
dirty, they shouldn't stop oil getting through.(There was oil in both
the filter housings.) He tested that the pump was working by feeding
oil from a separate small cannister of heating oil. It works fine
then. But as soon as the tube is connected back on to the feed pipe
(to the tank) and the boiler started again, there is no fuel coming
through. Zilch. The tank has at least 150 litres in it. The level,
observed through the filler hole, is a good 6 inches above the outlet.

I have now arranged for a different firm to come out, since I don't
have confidence any longer in the original chap. Could the pipe be
blocked? (I mean, from the tank to the boiler.) It's plastic-coated
10mm copper. I'm at my wit's end now, since it's already cost £200 for
the pump and the fire valve. Any advice most welcome.

If the filters are of the type that have replaceable elements then the
elements should be replaced, as after several years they will become
clogged.

If you have had filters in place and the pipe has not been damaged then I
would say that it is unlikely to be blocked.


--
Michael Chare

On Fri, 30 Apr 2010 01:11:45 +0100, "Michael Chare"
wrote:

"MM" wrote in message
.. .
The boiler stopped working. I've had a local heating engineer looking
at it. He diagnosed a noisy pump and dodgy fire valve, both of which
have been replaced. Now there is simply no oil being sucked from the
tank. He checked the filters at the oil tank and while they are a bit
dirty, they shouldn't stop oil getting through.(There was oil in both
the filter housings.) He tested that the pump was working by feeding
oil from a separate small cannister of heating oil. It works fine
then. But as soon as the tube is connected back on to the feed pipe
(to the tank) and the boiler started again, there is no fuel coming
through. Zilch. The tank has at least 150 litres in it. The level,
observed through the filler hole, is a good 6 inches above the outlet.

I have now arranged for a different firm to come out, since I don't
have confidence any longer in the original chap. Could the pipe be
blocked? (I mean, from the tank to the boiler.) It's plastic-coated
10mm copper. I'm at my wit's end now, since it's already cost £200 for
the pump and the fire valve. Any advice most welcome.

If the filters are of the type that have replaceable elements then the
elements should be replaced, as after several years they will become
clogged.

If you have had filters in place and the pipe has not been damaged then I
would say that it is unlikely to be blocked.

Can you think of any other reason why the pump (brand-new, nota bene)
is not sucking oil from the tank, but sucks it fine out of a small
can? The run from the tank to the boiler is approximately 15 metres.
The last section is approximately two metres up the outside wall of
the garage to where the boiler is mounted. That is, the pipe runs
level with the ground for about 13 metres, passes under the patio, is
then routed along the side of the garage wall, then there is a 90 deg
turn as it runs up the wall for the last approx 2 metres. All 40
houses on this estate (built 2003-4) are the same in respect of the
boiler installation. Several have had their pumps replaced already,
apparently.

When these systems are installed, does the installer engineer have to,
in some way, pre-fill the pipe, or maybe suck the oil through with a
hand pump first prior to connecting the tube to the boiler pump? Okay,
I'm now getting this other firm (one that has been installing Wallstar
systems since 1999) out anyway, but now, as an erstwhile motor fitter
many moons ago (now retired) I'm just curious.

Thanks!

MM

On Fri, 30 Apr 2010 00:39:16 +0100, MM wrote:

The tank has at least 150 litres in it. The level, observed through the
filler hole, is a good 6 inches above the outlet.

Is the level in the tank above the level of the boiler.? Do you get
free flow of air free oil from the supply pipe at the boiler and at
the level of the connection to the boiler?

Is that 6" of oil really oil or is it oil over water and your getting
water through the supply pipe?

--
Cheers
Dave.

"Dave Liquorice" wrote in message
ll.co.uk...
On Fri, 30 Apr 2010 00:39:16 +0100, MM wrote:

The tank has at least 150 litres in it. The level, observed through the
filler hole, is a good 6 inches above the outlet.

Is the level in the tank above the level of the boiler.? Do you get
free flow of air free oil from the supply pipe at the boiler and at
the level of the connection to the boiler?

Is that 6" of oil really oil or is it oil over water and your getting
water through the supply pipe?


It's a wallstar so I guess the tank is lower than the boiler (clue in the
name) but he could perhaps disconnect the pipe from one end to check it's
clear. Either disconnect at the lower end or disconnect at the higher and
temporarily lower that end (carefully).

OP: Is there any chance that the pipe may have been crushed at any point in
its run? Careless gardening or damage where it leaves the ground perhaps?

Also could the exit hole inside the tank be blocked with crud? (Remove
filter, open valve, catch the oil and re-use. Pray you can close the valve
again!)

On Fri, 30 Apr 2010 08:21:58 +0100, Calvin Sambrook wrote:

It's a wallstar so I guess the tank is lower than the boiler (clue in
the name)

Without a gravity feed I think the system would be a right pig to get
primed, the pumps don't suck air very well at all. They'll cope with
a small bubble in the oil but won't shift an air lock or lift the oil
very far if having to suck air to do it.

Think I'd check that there is a free flow of oil at the connection to
the pump. if there is reconnect and bleed the pump and try starting
the boiler. If there isn't work backwards up the supply pipe at each
joint where there is a constriction, (in and out of any valves,
filters etc) in the supply pipe checking for free flowing oil. I'd
not check any fullbore simple pipe joins to start with.

The new fire valve has been reset hasn't it?

Also could the exit hole inside the tank be blocked with crud? (Remove
filter, open valve, catch the oil and re-use.

Or the much smaller inlet side to the filter.

--
Cheers
Dave.

"Dave Liquorice" wrote in message
ll.co.uk...
On Fri, 30 Apr 2010 08:21:58 +0100, Calvin Sambrook wrote:

It's a wallstar so I guess the tank is lower than the boiler (clue in
the name)

Without a gravity feed I think the system would be a right pig to get
primed, the pumps don't suck air very well at all. They'll cope with
a small bubble in the oil but won't shift an air lock or lift the oil
very far if having to suck air to do it.


Actually they work very well. Mine is fitted at wall-unit height and will
happily self prime. Having run out of oil in the past I can tell you that
it only takes a couple of re-fires to self prime and clear out enough of the
air bubbles to allow the boiler to stay lit.

"Calvin Sambrook" wrote in message ...
"Dave Liquorice" wrote in message ll.co.uk...
On Fri, 30 Apr 2010 00:39:16 +0100, MM wrote:

The tank has at least 150 litres in it. The level, observed through the
filler hole, is a good 6 inches above the outlet.

Is the level in the tank above the level of the boiler.? Do you get
free flow of air free oil from the supply pipe at the boiler and at
the level of the connection to the boiler?

Is that 6" of oil really oil or is it oil over water and your getting
water through the supply pipe?


It's a wallstar so I guess the tank is lower than the boiler (clue in the name)

Not to me
The boiler we had when I was a kid, in the days when oil was a good
choice even if you had mains gas, was called a Wilson Wallflame 90.

It was most_definitely_floor_standing

--
Graham.

%Profound_observation%

On 30 Apr, 00:39, MM wrote:
The boiler stopped working. I've had a local heating engineer looking
at it. He diagnosed a noisy pump and dodgy fire valve, both of which
have been replaced. Now there is simply no oil being sucked from the
tank. He checked the filters at the oil tank and while they are a bit
dirty, they shouldn't stop oil getting through.(There was oil in both
the filter housings.) He tested that the pump was working by feeding
oil from a separate small cannister of heating oil. It works fine
then. But as soon as the tube is connected back on to the feed pipe
(to the tank) and the boiler started again, there is no fuel coming
through. Zilch. The tank has at least 150 litres in it. The level,
observed through the filler hole, is a good 6 inches above the outlet.

I have now arranged for a different firm to come out, since I don't
have confidence any longer in the original chap. Could the pipe be
blocked? (I mean, from the tank to the boiler.) It's plastic-coated
10mm copper. I'm at my wit's end now, since it's already cost £200 for
the pump and the fire valve. Any advice most welcome.

MM

You do not make it clear but from your description I am guessing that
you have a one pipe oil system rather than the two pipe which is
recommended by the majority of boiler manufacturers.
I also query the need for two filters at the tank - normal arrangement
is for a shut off valve followed by a sight tube level gauge and a
filter (sometimes as an all in one unit). What do you actually have
with yours?
Priming of an oil pump is not difficult but repeated dry attempts can
and do rapidly wreck even a new pump. You might do well to put a
little light oil directly into the inlet port of the pump before
repeating the attempts.
What sort of noise was the pump making? starvation of supply gives a
straining whine but other things such as stripped splines on a plastic
drive link give a whirring sound. There should be nothing to stop you
blowing air back through the oil pipe to the tank with only 6"
submersion at the tank connection. This will prove the line is clear.
Any air leak along the suction line to the pump will break the suction
and it will not prime. If you have a flexible section at the pump ake
very sure it is not perished under the braid. Normal practice is to
renew the flexible pipe every two or three years unlee it is a stated
"long life" version.
Since you seem to have little confidence in your boiler man you might
check he has not replaced a left hand rotation pup with a right hand
model or vice versa. (clue an L or R in the pump model code). This is
silly but all too easily done!
If these pointers do not help come back for more

"MM" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 30 Apr 2010 01:11:45 +0100, "Michael Chare"
wrote:


Can you think of any other reason why the pump (brand-new, nota bene)
is not sucking oil from the tank, but sucks it fine out of a small
can? The run from the tank to the boiler is approximately 15 metres.
The last section is approximately two metres up the outside wall of
the garage to where the boiler is mounted. That is, the pipe runs
level with the ground for about 13 metres, passes under the patio, is
then routed along the side of the garage wall, then there is a 90 deg
turn as it runs up the wall for the last approx 2 metres. All 40
houses on this estate (built 2003-4) are the same in respect of the
boiler installation. Several have had their pumps replaced already,
apparently.

When these systems are installed, does the installer engineer have to,
in some way, pre-fill the pipe, or maybe suck the oil through with a
hand pump first prior to connecting the tube to the boiler pump? Okay,
I'm now getting this other firm (one that has been installing Wallstar
systems since 1999) out anyway, but now, as an erstwhile motor fitter
many moons ago (now retired) I'm just curious.


I did once have a problem with clogged Crossland paper filter! I now
change them on a regular basis -

The pump should have instructions which tell you how much it can suck.

Pumps don't last for ever, and I have had to change them. Since fitting a
new boiler in 2006 I now have two filters, one close to the tank and one
close to the boiler.

Can you disconnect the pipe where it connects to the tank valve and then
check that oil does come out of the tank when you open the valve? (Or do
this closer to the boiler if there is a joint lower than the oil level in
the tank.)


--
Michael Chare

On Fri, 30 Apr 2010 12:21:18 +0100, "Michael Chare"
wrote:

"MM" wrote in message
.. .
On Fri, 30 Apr 2010 01:11:45 +0100, "Michael Chare"
wrote:


Can you think of any other reason why the pump (brand-new, nota bene)
is not sucking oil from the tank, but sucks it fine out of a small
can? The run from the tank to the boiler is approximately 15 metres.
The last section is approximately two metres up the outside wall of
the garage to where the boiler is mounted. That is, the pipe runs
level with the ground for about 13 metres, passes under the patio, is
then routed along the side of the garage wall, then there is a 90 deg
turn as it runs up the wall for the last approx 2 metres. All 40
houses on this estate (built 2003-4) are the same in respect of the
boiler installation. Several have had their pumps replaced already,
apparently.

When these systems are installed, does the installer engineer have to,
in some way, pre-fill the pipe, or maybe suck the oil through with a
hand pump first prior to connecting the tube to the boiler pump? Okay,
I'm now getting this other firm (one that has been installing Wallstar
systems since 1999) out anyway, but now, as an erstwhile motor fitter
many moons ago (now retired) I'm just curious.


I did once have a problem with clogged Crossland paper filter! I now
change them on a regular basis -

The pump should have instructions which tell you how much it can suck.

Pumps don't last for ever, and I have had to change them. Since fitting a
new boiler in 2006 I now have two filters, one close to the tank and one
close to the boiler.

Can you disconnect the pipe where it connects to the tank valve and then
check that oil does come out of the tank when you open the valve? (Or do
this closer to the boiler if there is a joint lower than the oil level in
the tank.)

Right, this is what the second firm did which I called out this
morning. (Straightaway, I got the feeling that the engineer was far
more methodical than the other chap.) Anyway, the first thing he did
was confirm there was oil in the tank. Next, he got his compressor out
of the van, disconnected the fuel line at both ends, I held the tank
end and pointed it into an old watering can and he blasted through the
pipe. It wasn't blocked.

He then undid the bleed valve on the pump, connected his manometer,
then started the boiler. the manometer barely any suction at all from
the pump. He said it might have had just enough suction to draw oil
from a small hand-held test cannister, but not enough 'suck' to draw
oil all the way from the tank.

Then I left him for a while, since when I was working in the motor
trade I hated it when the customer would stand over me. Some while
later, I heard the boiler come on at last. He told me that the new
pump that the other chap had fitted simply wasn't sucking anything. He
had installed another new pump (same model, BFP11 L3) and it worked
straightaway. Later, when we discussing why the other new pump had
apparently failed (or was faulty from the factory), he asked whether
the other chap had in fact installed it correctly, explaining to me
that the pump comes with some doubris or other in the box that
sometimes has to be fitted (inside the pump) and sometimes not, else
it would lose its prime (as in: pump prime) pretty quickly. He further
went on to say that the pump had to properly engage with the motor.
This was all completely over my head, since I know sweet FA about CH
boilers.

Anyway, sorted. It'll probably cost me another £200, but at least the
CH is back working again. I'm going to try and return the first new
pump via the other bloke and see if I can get some money back.
Basically I blame myself for not going to the heating firm (which came
out this morning) in the first place, because when I first went into
their high street showroom to ask for advice (after the first chap
had, basically, started to flounder), the MD and his fitter patiently
listened to my story of woe and asked pertinent questions and gave an
all-round impression that they knew the Wallstar boilers inside out.

So there ya go! A lesson to anybody not to try and save money by using
a fly-by-night fitter, which is how I shall ever after view the chap
who tried, but who, I believe, was soon out of his depth technically.

MM

On Fri, 30 Apr 2010 09:31:10 +0100, "Calvin Sambrook"
wrote:

"Dave Liquorice" wrote in message
ill.co.uk...
On Fri, 30 Apr 2010 08:21:58 +0100, Calvin Sambrook wrote:

It's a wallstar so I guess the tank is lower than the boiler (clue in
the name)

Without a gravity feed I think the system would be a right pig to get
primed, the pumps don't suck air very well at all. They'll cope with
a small bubble in the oil but won't shift an air lock or lift the oil
very far if having to suck air to do it.


Actually they work very well. Mine is fitted at wall-unit height and will
happily self prime. Having run out of oil in the past I can tell you that
it only takes a couple of re-fires to self prime and clear out enough of the
air bubbles to allow the boiler to stay lit.

Please refer to my earlier post (a few minutes ago) in reply to
Michael Chare). The Wallstar manual I have says the following:

"Fuel tank below the burner" [which it is, as you surmised]
"The fuel pump can lift fuel to a height of 2.5 metres."

I checked and the up-section of pipe is well within that limit.

In my other post I explained how the second heating engineer who fixed
it this morning replaced the new pump with a new pump he had on his
van and the oil started flowing soon after he switched the boiler on.
He said, maybe the other fitter had not installed the first new pump
correctly. It is, of course, not the job of the second firm to try and
diagnose what the other chap may or may not have done wrong, but to
simply diagnose the fault as presented and to fix it, which he has now
done.

MM

On Fri, 30 Apr 2010 03:06:40 -0700 (PDT), cynic
wrote:

On 30 Apr, 00:39, MM wrote:
The boiler stopped working. I've had a local heating engineer looking
at it. He diagnosed a noisy pump and dodgy fire valve, both of which
have been replaced. Now there is simply no oil being sucked from the
tank. He checked the filters at the oil tank and while they are a bit
dirty, they shouldn't stop oil getting through.(There was oil in both
the filter housings.) He tested that the pump was working by feeding
oil from a separate small cannister of heating oil. It works fine
then. But as soon as the tube is connected back on to the feed pipe
(to the tank) and the boiler started again, there is no fuel coming
through. Zilch. The tank has at least 150 litres in it. The level,
observed through the filler hole, is a good 6 inches above the outlet.

I have now arranged for a different firm to come out, since I don't
have confidence any longer in the original chap. Could the pipe be
blocked? (I mean, from the tank to the boiler.) It's plastic-coated
10mm copper. I'm at my wit's end now, since it's already cost £200 for
the pump and the fire valve. Any advice most welcome.

MM

You do not make it clear but from your description I am guessing that
you have a one pipe oil system rather than the two pipe which is
recommended by the majority of boiler manufacturers.

The Wallstar manual states: "A two pipe system or a deaerator (Tiger
loop, 3K or similar) is not required."

I also query the need for two filters at the tank - normal arrangement
is for a shut off valve followed by a sight tube level gauge and a
filter (sometimes as an all in one unit). What do you actually have
with yours?

Picture the green plastic tank with the Atkinson outlet pipe which has
the open/shut valve on its end. The fuel line to the boiler is
connected to a boss on the side of the outlet pipe. Looking from
above, imagine the letter 'L'. The upright bar is the Atkinson; the
horizontal is the fuel line to the boiler:

tank
|
|
|
x -------y------------- oil feed to boiler
V

V is the open/shut valve

x and y mark the spot of the two filters. Each of these is in the form
of a bowl. The one on the oil feed pipe, filter y, simply unscrews
(the bowl itself has a threaded stud protuding, like on some car
engine oil filters). The other one, x, has a bolt going right through
the bowl and into the Atkinson doubris.

Priming of an oil pump is not difficult but repeated dry attempts can
and do rapidly wreck even a new pump. You might do well to put a
little light oil directly into the inlet port of the pump before
repeating the attempts.

Maybe this is what happened. Maybe the first fitter didn't know you
could wreck a new pump in this way. He's hardly likely to own up,
though...

What sort of noise was the pump making?

Unfortunately, with my hearing, I am not the best person to ask. The
first engineer, who had serviced the boiler back in November (and
won't do so again!!), told me back then that the pump was noisy and
could soon need replacing. Apparently these pumps do not last all that
long. Several houses on the estate have had their pumps replaced
(approx 6 - 7 years old) and they all have identical CH boilers to
mine.

starvation of supply gives a
straining whine but other things such as stripped splines on a plastic
drive link give a whirring sound. There should be nothing to stop you
blowing air back through the oil pipe to the tank with only 6"
submersion at the tank connection. This will prove the line is clear.
Any air leak along the suction line to the pump will break the suction
and it will not prime. If you have a flexible section at the pump ake
very sure it is not perished under the braid. Normal practice is to
renew the flexible pipe every two or three years unlee it is a stated
"long life" version.

This is the kind that needs to be replaced every two years.

Since you seem to have little confidence in your boiler man you might
check he has not replaced a left hand rotation pup with a right hand
model or vice versa. (clue an L or R in the pump model code). This is
silly but all too easily done!

Well, this is what the people in the heating showroom also said (the
firm that came out this morning to fix it), and I later put this to
the first bloke, who said he already knew about left-hand and
right-hand pumps, giving me to understand that he thought the
suggestion that he might have got it wrong utterly risible (he is a
bit of a confrontational type of person). I do not know. I am a CH
novice. But the fact is, the NEW new pump worked straightaway.

If these pointers do not help come back for more

Many thanks (to all) for their advice, but thankfully now the boiler
has been fixed, albeit that I have learned the hard (=expensive) way
not to go to any Tom, Dick or Harry with a set of spanners who claims
to be a heating engineer.

MM

"MM" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 30 Apr 2010 12:21:18 +0100, "Michael Chare"
wrote:

Right, this is what the second firm did which I called out this
morning. (Straightaway, I got the feeling that the engineer was far
more methodical than the other chap.) Anyway, the first thing he did
was confirm there was oil in the tank. Next, he got his compressor out
of the van, disconnected the fuel line at both ends, I held the tank
end and pointed it into an old watering can and he blasted through the
pipe. It wasn't blocked.

He then undid the bleed valve on the pump, connected his manometer,
then started the boiler. the manometer barely any suction at all from
the pump. He said it might have had just enough suction to draw oil
from a small hand-held test cannister, but not enough 'suck' to draw
oil all the way from the tank.

Then I left him for a while, since when I was working in the motor
trade I hated it when the customer would stand over me. Some while
later, I heard the boiler come on at last. He told me that the new
pump that the other chap had fitted simply wasn't sucking anything. He
had installed another new pump (same model, BFP11 L3) and it worked
straightaway. Later, when we discussing why the other new pump had
apparently failed (or was faulty from the factory), he asked whether
the other chap had in fact installed it correctly, explaining to me
that the pump comes with some doubris or other in the box that
sometimes has to be fitted (inside the pump) and sometimes not, else
it would lose its prime (as in: pump prime) pretty quickly. He further
went on to say that the pump had to properly engage with the motor.
This was all completely over my head, since I know sweet FA about CH
boilers.

Anyway, sorted. It'll probably cost me another £200, but at least the
CH is back working again. I'm going to try and return the first new
pump via the other bloke and see if I can get some money back.
Basically I blame myself for not going to the heating firm (which came
out this morning) in the first place, because when I first went into
their high street showroom to ask for advice (after the first chap
had, basically, started to flounder), the MD and his fitter patiently
listened to my story of woe and asked pertinent questions and gave an
all-round impression that they knew the Wallstar boilers inside out.

So there ya go! A lesson to anybody not to try and save money by using
a fly-by-night fitter, which is how I shall ever after view the chap
who tried, but who, I believe, was soon out of his depth technically.

On my previous boiler the pump was driven from the fan (and motor) by a
rubber pipe with internal splines. If the pump was in the wrong position
the splines in the pipe would not grip the plastic cup on the pump. (not a
particularly obvious fault.)

The pumps I have had come with a small screw which is used to block a bypass
hole for two pipe operation. Leaving that screw in place for one pipe
operation might well damage the pump.

I hope that you get your money back from the first person.


--
Michael Chare

On Sat, 1 May 2010 11:16:37 +0100, "Michael Chare"
wrote:

"MM" wrote in message
.. .
On Fri, 30 Apr 2010 12:21:18 +0100, "Michael Chare"
wrote:

Right, this is what the second firm did which I called out this
morning. (Straightaway, I got the feeling that the engineer was far
more methodical than the other chap.) Anyway, the first thing he did
was confirm there was oil in the tank. Next, he got his compressor out
of the van, disconnected the fuel line at both ends, I held the tank
end and pointed it into an old watering can and he blasted through the
pipe. It wasn't blocked.

He then undid the bleed valve on the pump, connected his manometer,
then started the boiler. the manometer barely any suction at all from
the pump. He said it might have had just enough suction to draw oil
from a small hand-held test cannister, but not enough 'suck' to draw
oil all the way from the tank.

Then I left him for a while, since when I was working in the motor
trade I hated it when the customer would stand over me. Some while
later, I heard the boiler come on at last. He told me that the new
pump that the other chap had fitted simply wasn't sucking anything. He
had installed another new pump (same model, BFP11 L3) and it worked
straightaway. Later, when we discussing why the other new pump had
apparently failed (or was faulty from the factory), he asked whether
the other chap had in fact installed it correctly, explaining to me
that the pump comes with some doubris or other in the box that
sometimes has to be fitted (inside the pump) and sometimes not, else
it would lose its prime (as in: pump prime) pretty quickly. He further
went on to say that the pump had to properly engage with the motor.
This was all completely over my head, since I know sweet FA about CH
boilers.

Anyway, sorted. It'll probably cost me another £200, but at least the
CH is back working again. I'm going to try and return the first new
pump via the other bloke and see if I can get some money back.
Basically I blame myself for not going to the heating firm (which came
out this morning) in the first place, because when I first went into
their high street showroom to ask for advice (after the first chap
had, basically, started to flounder), the MD and his fitter patiently
listened to my story of woe and asked pertinent questions and gave an
all-round impression that they knew the Wallstar boilers inside out.

So there ya go! A lesson to anybody not to try and save money by using
a fly-by-night fitter, which is how I shall ever after view the chap
who tried, but who, I believe, was soon out of his depth technically.

On my previous boiler the pump was driven from the fan (and motor) by a
rubber pipe with internal splines. If the pump was in the wrong position
the splines in the pipe would not grip the plastic cup on the pump. (not a
particularly obvious fault.)

The pumps I have had come with a small screw which is used to block a bypass
hole for two pipe operation. Leaving that screw in place for one pipe
operation might well damage the pump.

This is what the second engineer (the one who fixed it) also queried.
He also mentioned the internally-splined connector and whether it had
properly engaged with the pump shaft.


I hope that you get your money back from the first person.

Of that there is so far no sign. He claims the pump wasn't faulty and
doesn't believe the second engineer fitted a new pump. Also, a check
on the web reveals that this pump (BFP11 L3) is around £55 plus VAT,
yet I was told £70 plus VAT (by the first engineer). The fire valve is
also a lot cheaper on the web than what I was told: Around £28 as
opposed to £50.

Anyone want to buy my "brand-new" pump??!! (Well, it was fitted in the
boiler for about an hour.)

MM

On 1 May, 11:36, MM wrote:
On Sat, 1 May 2010 11:16:37 +0100, "Michael Chare"





wrote:
"MM" wrote in message
.. .
On Fri, 30 Apr 2010 12:21:18 +0100, "Michael Chare"
wrote:

Right, this is what the second firm did which I called out this
morning. (Straightaway, I got the feeling that the engineer was far
more methodical than the other chap.) Anyway, the first thing he did
was confirm there was oil in the tank. Next, he got his compressor out
of the van, disconnected the fuel line at both ends, I held the tank
end and pointed it into an old watering can and he blasted through the
pipe. It wasn't blocked.

He then undid the bleed valve on the pump, connected his manometer,
then started the boiler. the manometer barely any suction at all from
the pump. He said it might have had just enough suction to draw oil
from a small hand-held test cannister, but not enough 'suck' to draw
oil all the way from the tank.

Then I left him for a while, since when I was working in the motor
trade I hated it when the customer would stand over me. Some while
later, I heard the boiler come on at last. He told me that the new
pump that the other chap had fitted simply wasn't sucking anything. He
had installed another new pump (same model, BFP11 L3) and it worked
straightaway. Later, when we discussing why the other new pump had
apparently failed (or was faulty from the factory), he asked whether
the other chap had in fact installed it correctly, explaining to me
that the pump comes with some doubris or other in the box that
sometimes has to be fitted (inside the pump) and sometimes not, else
it would lose its prime (as in: pump prime) pretty quickly. He further
went on to say that the pump had to properly engage with the motor.
This was all completely over my head, since I know sweet FA about CH
boilers.

Anyway, sorted. It'll probably cost me another £200, but at least the
CH is back working again. I'm going to try and return the first new
pump via the other bloke and see if I can get some money back.
Basically I blame myself for not going to the heating firm (which came
out this morning) in the first place, because when I first went into
their high street showroom to ask for advice (after the first chap
had, basically, started to flounder), the MD and his fitter patiently
listened to my story of woe and asked pertinent questions and gave an
all-round impression that they knew the Wallstar boilers inside out.

So there ya go! A lesson to anybody not to try and save money by using
a fly-by-night fitter, which is how I shall ever after view the chap
who tried, but who, I believe, was soon out of his depth technically.

On my previous boiler the pump was driven from the fan (and motor) by a
rubber pipe with internal splines. *If the pump was in the wrong position
the splines in the pipe would not grip the plastic cup on the pump. (not a
particularly obvious fault.)

The pumps I have had come with a small screw which is used to block a bypass
hole for two pipe operation. Leaving that screw in place for one pipe
operation might well damage the pump.

This is what the second engineer (the one who fixed it) also queried.
He also mentioned the internally-splined connector and whether it had
properly engaged with the pump shaft.



I hope that you get your money back from the first person.

Of that there is so far no sign. He claims the pump wasn't faulty and
doesn't believe the second engineer fitted a new pump. Also, a check
on the web reveals that this pump (BFP11 L3) is around £55 plus VAT,
yet I was told £70 plus VAT (by the first engineer). The fire valve is
also a lot cheaper on the web than what I was told: Around £28 as
opposed to £50.

Anyone want to buy my "brand-new" pump??!! (Well, it was fitted in the
boiler for about an hour.)

MM- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

You seem to have found a competent service man now - long may you
enjoy the use of his services!

In connection with the manual stating a one pipe system is ok, it is
odd that nearly every other wall mounted boiler manufacturer advises
two pipe, or using a tiger loop deaerator. (in this case the internal
bypass plug should be fitted to the pump - see leaflet packaged with
the pump for details) I have had to replace many pumps after only a
few years when used on a one pipe fuel lift installation. The pump
working life is cut by about half in my experience by this short-cut.

On Sat, 1 May 2010 04:47:12 -0700 (PDT), cynic
wrote:

On 1 May, 11:36, MM wrote:
On Sat, 1 May 2010 11:16:37 +0100, "Michael Chare"





wrote:
"MM" wrote in message
.. .
On Fri, 30 Apr 2010 12:21:18 +0100, "Michael Chare"
wrote:

Right, this is what the second firm did which I called out this
morning. (Straightaway, I got the feeling that the engineer was far
more methodical than the other chap.) Anyway, the first thing he did
was confirm there was oil in the tank. Next, he got his compressor out
of the van, disconnected the fuel line at both ends, I held the tank
end and pointed it into an old watering can and he blasted through the
pipe. It wasn't blocked.

He then undid the bleed valve on the pump, connected his manometer,
then started the boiler. the manometer barely any suction at all from
the pump. He said it might have had just enough suction to draw oil
from a small hand-held test cannister, but not enough 'suck' to draw
oil all the way from the tank.

Then I left him for a while, since when I was working in the motor
trade I hated it when the customer would stand over me. Some while
later, I heard the boiler come on at last. He told me that the new
pump that the other chap had fitted simply wasn't sucking anything. He
had installed another new pump (same model, BFP11 L3) and it worked
straightaway. Later, when we discussing why the other new pump had
apparently failed (or was faulty from the factory), he asked whether
the other chap had in fact installed it correctly, explaining to me
that the pump comes with some doubris or other in the box that
sometimes has to be fitted (inside the pump) and sometimes not, else
it would lose its prime (as in: pump prime) pretty quickly. He further
went on to say that the pump had to properly engage with the motor.
This was all completely over my head, since I know sweet FA about CH
boilers.

Anyway, sorted. It'll probably cost me another £200, but at least the
CH is back working again. I'm going to try and return the first new
pump via the other bloke and see if I can get some money back.
Basically I blame myself for not going to the heating firm (which came
out this morning) in the first place, because when I first went into
their high street showroom to ask for advice (after the first chap
had, basically, started to flounder), the MD and his fitter patiently
listened to my story of woe and asked pertinent questions and gave an
all-round impression that they knew the Wallstar boilers inside out.

So there ya go! A lesson to anybody not to try and save money by using
a fly-by-night fitter, which is how I shall ever after view the chap
who tried, but who, I believe, was soon out of his depth technically.

On my previous boiler the pump was driven from the fan (and motor) by a
rubber pipe with internal splines. *If the pump was in the wrong position
the splines in the pipe would not grip the plastic cup on the pump. (not a
particularly obvious fault.)

The pumps I have had come with a small screw which is used to block a bypass
hole for two pipe operation. Leaving that screw in place for one pipe
operation might well damage the pump.

This is what the second engineer (the one who fixed it) also queried.
He also mentioned the internally-splined connector and whether it had
properly engaged with the pump shaft.



I hope that you get your money back from the first person.

Of that there is so far no sign. He claims the pump wasn't faulty and
doesn't believe the second engineer fitted a new pump. Also, a check
on the web reveals that this pump (BFP11 L3) is around £55 plus VAT,
yet I was told £70 plus VAT (by the first engineer). The fire valve is
also a lot cheaper on the web than what I was told: Around £28 as
opposed to £50.

Anyone want to buy my "brand-new" pump??!! (Well, it was fitted in the
boiler for about an hour.)

MM- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

You seem to have found a competent service man now - long may you
enjoy the use of his services!

In connection with the manual stating a one pipe system is ok, it is
odd that nearly every other wall mounted boiler manufacturer advises
two pipe, or using a tiger loop deaerator. (in this case the internal
bypass plug should be fitted to the pump - see leaflet packaged with
the pump for details) I have had to replace many pumps after only a
few years when used on a one pipe fuel lift installation. The pump
working life is cut by about half in my experience by this short-cut.

Maybe that explains the relatively short life of these pumps on this
estate. I was told (by the first fitter) that several houses had
already had their pumps replaced. However, as you know, I am used to
frugal living (which is why I am especially ****ed off right now) and
therefore run my heating far less than your average person, so my
boiler won't have had anything like as much wear as some. However, the
second engineer really rates the Wallstar as a brand, saying they are
excellent, so that is some good news at least.

One other point, that Michael Chare might also wish to ponder: During
the first repair attempt (that didn't work out) the fitter told me
that the transparent plastic hose between the fire valve and the pump
should be a *braided* hose, and then proceeded to fit one.

However, later, once the *second* engineer had arrived (this is now
two to three days later...) and was in the final stages of finishing
up after successfully getting the system back working again, he told
me a story about the boss of HRM Systems, one Hedley Mickleburgh, who
successfully defended the fire safety of his boilers in court, using
the argument that his boilers did not need any external/remote sensor
since the plastic tube was designed to burn through in the event of a
fire, whereby any fire would be self-limiting. So if this is true, the
"braided hose" recommendation also seems to be wrong.

MM

"MM" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 1 May 2010 04:47:12 -0700 (PDT), cynic
wrote:

\
One other point, that Michael Chare might also wish to ponder: During
the first repair attempt (that didn't work out) the fitter told me
that the transparent plastic hose between the fire valve and the pump
should be a *braided* hose, and then proceeded to fit one.

However, later, once the *second* engineer had arrived (this is now
two to three days later...) and was in the final stages of finishing
up after successfully getting the system back working again, he told
me a story about the boss of HRM Systems, one Hedley Mickleburgh, who
successfully defended the fire safety of his boilers in court, using
the argument that his boilers did not need any external/remote sensor
since the plastic tube was designed to burn through in the event of a
fire, whereby any fire would be self-limiting. So if this is true, the
"braided hose" recommendation also seems to be wrong.


I have always used braided pipes. I have read on this ng that they can
become porous (to air). The pipes that came with my latest boiler
are braided, but with a rubber covering. (I think). The fire valve should
be outside. I would expect to find a copper pipe coming from the fire valve
connected to a flexible pipe at the boiler. I have always assumed that the
purpose of the fire valve is to prevent oil from the tank feeding a fire in
the house. I can not see how using a clear plastic pipe to connect to the
boiler would help in that respect. In principle I would want to use as fire
resistant a pipe as possible just in case the fire valve failed to work. In
practice you can only use what is available to buy.

If the rubber pipe with internal splines was not mating properly with the
pump then the end may become frayed and the the pipe may fail at a later
date.


--
Michael Chare

On Sat, 1 May 2010 17:06:31 +0100, "Michael Chare"
wrote:

"MM" wrote in message
.. .
On Sat, 1 May 2010 04:47:12 -0700 (PDT), cynic
wrote:

\
One other point, that Michael Chare might also wish to ponder: During
the first repair attempt (that didn't work out) the fitter told me
that the transparent plastic hose between the fire valve and the pump
should be a *braided* hose, and then proceeded to fit one.

However, later, once the *second* engineer had arrived (this is now
two to three days later...) and was in the final stages of finishing
up after successfully getting the system back working again, he told
me a story about the boss of HRM Systems, one Hedley Mickleburgh, who
successfully defended the fire safety of his boilers in court, using
the argument that his boilers did not need any external/remote sensor
since the plastic tube was designed to burn through in the event of a
fire, whereby any fire would be self-limiting. So if this is true, the
"braided hose" recommendation also seems to be wrong.


I have always used braided pipes. I have read on this ng that they can
become porous (to air). The pipes that came with my latest boiler
are braided, but with a rubber covering. (I think).

Well, according to the second fitter, the correct hose for the
Wallstar 15/20 is the clear plastic tube because this is *designed* to
melt quickly in the case of a fire and thus stop the flow of fuel to
the pump.

The fire valve should
be outside.

However, it is INside (the boiler housing on the external garage
wall).

I would expect to find a copper pipe coming from the fire valve
connected to a flexible pipe at the boiler. I have always assumed that the
purpose of the fire valve is to prevent oil from the tank feeding a fire in
the house.

The second fitter said that the fire valve is intended to stop fire
spreading back to the oil tank.

I can not see how using a clear plastic pipe to connect to the
boiler would help in that respect.

See above.

In principle I would want to use as fire
resistant a pipe as possible just in case the fire valve failed to work. In
practice you can only use what is available to buy.

If the rubber pipe with internal splines was not mating properly with the
pump then the end may become frayed and the the pipe may fail at a later
date.

Well, that doesn't exactly cheer me up any! Let's hope the second
fitter checked its condition.

MM

"MM" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 1 May 2010 17:06:31 +0100, "Michael Chare"
wrote:

"MM" wrote in message
. ..
On Sat, 1 May 2010 04:47:12 -0700 (PDT), cynic
wrote:

\
One other point, that Michael Chare might also wish to ponder: During
the first repair attempt (that didn't work out) the fitter told me
that the transparent plastic hose between the fire valve and the pump
should be a *braided* hose, and then proceeded to fit one.

However, later, once the *second* engineer had arrived (this is now
two to three days later...) and was in the final stages of finishing
up after successfully getting the system back working again, he told
me a story about the boss of HRM Systems, one Hedley Mickleburgh, who
successfully defended the fire safety of his boilers in court, using
the argument that his boilers did not need any external/remote sensor
since the plastic tube was designed to burn through in the event of a
fire, whereby any fire would be self-limiting. So if this is true, the
"braided hose" recommendation also seems to be wrong.


I have always used braided pipes. I have read on this ng that they can
become porous (to air). The pipes that came with my latest boiler
are braided, but with a rubber covering. (I think).

Well, according to the second fitter, the correct hose for the
Wallstar 15/20 is the clear plastic tube because this is *designed* to
melt quickly in the case of a fire and thus stop the flow of fuel to
the pump.

The fire valve should
be outside.

However, it is INside (the boiler housing on the external garage
wall).

I would expect to find a copper pipe coming from the fire valve
connected to a flexible pipe at the boiler. I have always assumed that the
purpose of the fire valve is to prevent oil from the tank feeding a fire
in
the house.

The second fitter said that the fire valve is intended to stop fire
spreading back to the oil tank.

I can not see how using a clear plastic pipe to connect to the
boiler would help in that respect.

See above.

In principle I would want to use as fire
resistant a pipe as possible just in case the fire valve failed to work.
In
practice you can only use what is available to buy.

If the rubber pipe with internal splines was not mating properly with the
pump then the end may become frayed and the the pipe may fail at a later
date.

Well, that doesn't exactly cheer me up any! Let's hope the second
fitter checked its condition.


Mine failed on something like New Year's eve. The nearest replacement part
I could trace on the Internet was 40 miles away.

So I took the old part to the office of our local boiler people. Someone
sold me a 2nd hand one for £1

I was very grateful.


--
Michael Chare

On Sat, 1 May 2010 19:41:50 +0100, "Michael Chare"
wrote:

"MM" wrote in message
.. .
On Sat, 1 May 2010 17:06:31 +0100, "Michael Chare"
wrote:

"MM" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 1 May 2010 04:47:12 -0700 (PDT), cynic
wrote:

\
One other point, that Michael Chare might also wish to ponder: During
the first repair attempt (that didn't work out) the fitter told me
that the transparent plastic hose between the fire valve and the pump
should be a *braided* hose, and then proceeded to fit one.

However, later, once the *second* engineer had arrived (this is now
two to three days later...) and was in the final stages of finishing
up after successfully getting the system back working again, he told
me a story about the boss of HRM Systems, one Hedley Mickleburgh, who
successfully defended the fire safety of his boilers in court, using
the argument that his boilers did not need any external/remote sensor
since the plastic tube was designed to burn through in the event of a
fire, whereby any fire would be self-limiting. So if this is true, the
"braided hose" recommendation also seems to be wrong.


I have always used braided pipes. I have read on this ng that they can
become porous (to air). The pipes that came with my latest boiler
are braided, but with a rubber covering. (I think).

Well, according to the second fitter, the correct hose for the
Wallstar 15/20 is the clear plastic tube because this is *designed* to
melt quickly in the case of a fire and thus stop the flow of fuel to
the pump.

The fire valve should
be outside.

However, it is INside (the boiler housing on the external garage
wall).

I would expect to find a copper pipe coming from the fire valve
connected to a flexible pipe at the boiler. I have always assumed that the
purpose of the fire valve is to prevent oil from the tank feeding a fire
in
the house.

The second fitter said that the fire valve is intended to stop fire
spreading back to the oil tank.

I can not see how using a clear plastic pipe to connect to the
boiler would help in that respect.

See above.

In principle I would want to use as fire
resistant a pipe as possible just in case the fire valve failed to work.
In
practice you can only use what is available to buy.

If the rubber pipe with internal splines was not mating properly with the
pump then the end may become frayed and the the pipe may fail at a later
date.

Well, that doesn't exactly cheer me up any! Let's hope the second
fitter checked its condition.


Mine failed on something like New Year's eve. The nearest replacement part
I could trace on the Internet was 40 miles away.

So I took the old part to the office of our local boiler people. Someone
sold me a 2nd hand one for £1

I was very grateful.

Maybe I should get a spare and keep it handy. However, the boiler
won't see much use during the summer and autumn (I won't need any
heating until at least September and I use minimal hot water except on
bath days), and it will be due for its next service in November, which
I may bring forward to mid-October. I might get the 'second firm' chap
to replace the tube anyway. I'm not letting the first fitter go
anywhere near it ever again.

MM

On Sat, 01 May 2010 13:06:12 +0100, MM wrote:

In connection with the manual stating a one pipe system is ok, it
is
odd that nearly every other wall mounted boiler manufacturer
advises
two pipe, or using a tiger loop deaerator.

Maybe that explains the relatively short life of these pumps on this
estate. I was told (by the first fitter) that several houses had
already had their pumps replaced.

By him? With his reasonable mark up from the cheapest internet
price. The guy has to make a living... B-)

I suspect pump life would depend on how much work the pump has to do.
A pump lifting fuel a metre or so will be working harder than one
that has a free flowing gravity feed. I'd certainly have a two pipe
system and tiger loop if there was any lift for the fuel. Otherwise
the supply becomes negative pressure and thus likely to draw air in,
air in the pump won't do it any good either.

who successfully defended the fire safety of his boilers in court, using
the argument that his boilers did not need any external/remote sensor
since the plastic tube was designed to burn through in the event of a
fire, whereby any fire would be self-limiting.

That *must* in the specific case of a system without a free flowing
gravity oil supply surely. Otherwise when the hose melts you have a
fire being fed with a considerable quanity of kerosene...

The fire valve should be outside, indeed I'm pretty sure OFTEC
regulations specify this.

--
Cheers
Dave.

On Sun, 02 May 2010 09:51:54 +0100 (BST), "Dave Liquorice"
wrote:

On Sat, 01 May 2010 13:06:12 +0100, MM wrote:

In connection with the manual stating a one pipe system is ok, it
is
odd that nearly every other wall mounted boiler manufacturer
advises
two pipe, or using a tiger loop deaerator.

Maybe that explains the relatively short life of these pumps on this
estate. I was told (by the first fitter) that several houses had
already had their pumps replaced.

By him? With his reasonable mark up from the cheapest internet
price. The guy has to make a living... B-)

I suspect pump life would depend on how much work the pump has to do.
A pump lifting fuel a metre or so will be working harder than one
that has a free flowing gravity feed. I'd certainly have a two pipe
system and tiger loop if there was any lift for the fuel. Otherwise
the supply becomes negative pressure and thus likely to draw air in,
air in the pump won't do it any good either.

who successfully defended the fire safety of his boilers in court, using
the argument that his boilers did not need any external/remote sensor
since the plastic tube was designed to burn through in the event of a
fire, whereby any fire would be self-limiting.

That *must* in the specific case of a system without a free flowing
gravity oil supply surely. Otherwise when the hose melts you have a
fire being fed with a considerable quanity of kerosene...

But this estate only has tanks below the boiler in all 40
installations.

The fire valve should be outside, indeed I'm pretty sure OFTEC
regulations specify this.

It's not, though. It's inside the wall-mounted boiler housing.

This is all part of the saga involving the court case, as I am given
to understand. The boss of HRM said when the regs came in "Take me to
court!" They did, and he won.

MM

On Sun, 02 May 2010 15:20:13 +0100, MM wrote:

That *must* in the specific case of a system without a free
flowing
gravity oil supply surely. Otherwise when the hose melts you have
a
fire being fed with a considerable quanity of kerosene...

But this estate only has tanks below the boiler in all 40
installations.

QED.

The fire valve should be outside, indeed I'm pretty sure OFTEC
regulations specify this.

It's not, though. It's inside the wall-mounted boiler housing.

This is all part of the saga involving the court case, as I am given
to understand. The boss of HRM said when the regs came in "Take me to
court!" They did, and he won.

The devil is in the detail. The OFTEC regulations are not the law,
though if you go against them you need to be fairly sure of your
ground otherwise insurance companies might not pay out etc and be
prepared to fight as this chap was.

If there is no free flowing gravity feed of oil into the building
then it's not that relevant where the fire valve is. Though inside
the casing seems a bit iffy to me, what are the seals in the valve
made of? What happens to them at several hundred degrees centigrade?

If there is free flowing oil feed into the building the the firevalve
really does need to be outside. I'd say that even if the interior
pipe work was all copper and compression joints, who is to say what
happens in a fire and the last thing you want is 2000l of kerosene
being fed in...

--
Cheers
Dave.