I have made 3 raised beds in the garden... of aprox 35 sq m area.

Having put in 15 cu m of top soil, now going to put on top a 100mm depth of
well rotted manure, then another 100mm top soil as cover. (with slight fork
over)
I know putting manure in last year and letting it rot over winter would be
first choice - couldn't do that, hence this second method of layering.
First crop will help mix it in.

First crop will be root veg ... 30% potatoes, followed by cabbage,
cauliflower, parsnip & onion.

The Q .. is simple should I use Cow manure or Horse manure ? ....... I have
a stables and farm close by ... and as much of either as I want.

Supposedly Elephant Manure is the best ... but there is a shortage of
visiting elephants in my area - used to have Billy Smarts & Chipperfields
visit several times a year when I was a kid, now the only circus is some
Russians prancing about and dangling on ropes.

"Rick Hughes" wrote in message
...
I have made 3 raised beds in the garden... of aprox 35 sq m area.

Having put in 15 cu m of top soil, now going to put on top a 100mm depth
of well rotted manure, then another 100mm top soil as cover. (with slight
fork over)
I know putting manure in last year and letting it rot over winter would be
first choice - couldn't do that, hence this second method of layering.
First crop will help mix it in.

First crop will be root veg ... 30% potatoes, followed by cabbage,
cauliflower, parsnip & onion.

The Q .. is simple should I use Cow manure or Horse manure ? ....... I
have a stables and farm close by ... and as much of either as I want.

Supposedly Elephant Manure is the best ... but there is a shortage of
visiting elephants in my area - used to have Billy Smarts & Chipperfields
visit several times a year when I was a kid, now the only circus is some
Russians prancing about and dangling on ropes.

Chicken Sh*t

On 10 Apr, 09:16, "Rick Hughes"
wrote:
I have made 3 raised beds in the garden... of aprox 35 sq m area.

Having put in 15 cu m of top soil, now going to put on top a 100mm depth of
well rotted manure, then another 100mm top soil as cover. (with slight fork
over)
I know putting manure in last year and letting it rot over winter would be
first choice - couldn't do that, hence this second method of layering.
First crop will help mix it in.

First crop will be root veg ... 30% potatoes, followed by cabbage,
cauliflower, parsnip & onion.

The Q .. is simple should I use Cow manure or Horse manure ? ....... I have
a stables and farm close by ... and as much of either as I want.

Supposedly Elephant Manure is the best ... but there is a shortage of
visiting elephants in my area - used to have Billy Smarts & Chipperfields
visit several times a year when I was a kid, now the only circus is some
Russians prancing about and dangling on ropes.

missus reckons horse tho ****e is ****e
NB check that thread about weedkiller infested hays etc that horses
can be fed on such that the ****e can still contain the weedkillers
etc :(

Cheers
JimK

On 10 Apr, 09:16, "Rick Hughes"
wrote:

The Q .. is simple should I use Cow manure or Horse manure ?

Horse. Contains more vegetable matter, so it acts as a mechanical
improver too.

Collected cow is generally slurry which is pretty concentrated stuff.
I wouldn't use this directly, without some prior composting. Even more
so for pig or chicken.

JimK wrote:
On 10 Apr, 09:16, "Rick Hughes"
wrote:
I have made 3 raised beds in the garden... of aprox 35 sq m area.

Having put in 15 cu m of top soil, now going to put on top a 100mm depth of
well rotted manure, then another 100mm top soil as cover. (with slight fork
over)
I know putting manure in last year and letting it rot over winter would be
first choice - couldn't do that, hence this second method of layering.
First crop will help mix it in.

First crop will be root veg ... 30% potatoes, followed by cabbage,
cauliflower, parsnip & onion.

The Q .. is simple should I use Cow manure or Horse manure ? ....... I have
a stables and farm close by ... and as much of either as I want.

Supposedly Elephant Manure is the best ... but there is a shortage of
visiting elephants in my area - used to have Billy Smarts & Chipperfields
visit several times a year when I was a kid, now the only circus is some
Russians prancing about and dangling on ropes.

missus reckons horse tho ****e is ****e
NB check that thread about weedkiller infested hays etc that horses
can be fed on such that the ****e can still contain the weedkillers
etc :(


yep. That woz us.

Also got another load of 'fresh' delivered once that was so fresh it
darn near killed everything.

These days its tonne bags of topsoil or compost and tubs of fish blood
and bone.

Try and use runner beans as fat way to put nitrogen in. Compost the haulms.

Potatoes are an excellent first crop too.

Root veg benefit from a lot of sand mixed in to lighten soil..



There is a lot of bollox talked about compost. Basically the best
vegetable gardens are those that have simply been dug ,planted, and the
residues left to rot, for the last 40 years or more.




Cheers
JimK

In message , Rick Hughes
writes
I have made 3 raised beds in the garden... of aprox 35 sq m area.

Having put in 15 cu m of top soil, now going to put on top a 100mm
depth of well rotted manure, then another 100mm top soil as cover.
(with slight fork over)
I know putting manure in last year and letting it rot over winter would
be first choice - couldn't do that, hence this second method of
layering.
First crop will help mix it in.

First crop will be root veg ... 30% potatoes, followed by cabbage,
cauliflower, parsnip & onion.

The Q .. is simple should I use Cow manure or Horse manure ? ....... I
have a stables and farm close by ... and as much of either as I want.

Supposedly Elephant Manure is the best ... but there is a shortage of
visiting elephants in my area - used to have Billy Smarts &
Chipperfields visit several times a year when I was a kid, now the only
circus is some Russians prancing about and dangling on ropes.

4" is a HUGE amount of rotted manure.

Well rotted, yarded cattle manure is safer and probably more suitable.
Stable manure can vary enormously as some bed with wood shavings, some
with straw and sometimes the pile is as collected from the field.

There was a flurry a year or so back, when it was realised that some
*grass safe* chemicals were sufficiently persistent to pass through the
horses gut and affect susceptible garden crops.

regards



--
Tim Lamb

We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember Tim Lamb
saying something like:

There was a flurry a year or so back, when it was realised that some
*grass safe* chemicals were sufficiently persistent to pass through the
horses gut and affect susceptible garden crops.

I wonder what effect this had on any farmers who used it. I'd think it
might be a bit of a blow for an organic grower.

Vass wrote:


"Rick Hughes" wrote in message
...
I have made 3 raised beds in the garden... of aprox 35 sq m area.

Having put in 15 cu m of top soil, now going to put on top a 100mm
depth of well rotted manure, then another 100mm top soil as cover.
(with slight fork over)
I know putting manure in last year and letting it rot over winter
would be first choice - couldn't do that, hence this second method of
layering.
First crop will help mix it in.

First crop will be root veg ... 30% potatoes, followed by cabbage,
cauliflower, parsnip & onion.

The Q .. is simple should I use Cow manure or Horse manure ? ....... I
have a stables and farm close by ... and as much of either as I want.

Supposedly Elephant Manure is the best ... but there is a shortage of
visiting elephants in my area - used to have Billy Smarts &
Chipperfields visit several times a year when I was a kid, now the
only circus is some Russians prancing about and dangling on ropes.

Chicken Sh*t

Bird droppings, as manure, was discussed at lunchtime in my local for
use as a fertaliser. It was very well recommended. The only problem I
can see is collecting it. My instinct, is use the stable output. It's
more plant based, even if cows do eat grass.

Dave

JimK wrote:
On 10 Apr, 09:16, "Rick Hughes"
wrote:
I have made 3 raised beds in the garden... of aprox 35 sq m area.

Having put in 15 cu m of top soil, now going to put on top a 100mm depth of
well rotted manure, then another 100mm top soil as cover. (with slight fork
over)
I know putting manure in last year and letting it rot over winter would be
first choice - couldn't do that, hence this second method of layering.
First crop will help mix it in.

First crop will be root veg ... 30% potatoes, followed by cabbage,
cauliflower, parsnip & onion.

The Q .. is simple should I use Cow manure or Horse manure ? ....... I have
a stables and farm close by ... and as much of either as I want.

Supposedly Elephant Manure is the best ... but there is a shortage of
visiting elephants in my area - used to have Billy Smarts & Chipperfields
visit several times a year when I was a kid, now the only circus is some
Russians prancing about and dangling on ropes.

missus reckons horse tho ****e is ****e
NB check that thread about weedkiller infested hays etc that horses
can be fed on such that the ****e can still contain the weedkillers
etc :(

Having read that, I retract my statement to use horse manure.

I've done a bit of gardening, but it was before the chemicals for all
era. Bloody Monsanto :-(

Dave

Grimly Curmudgeon wrote:
We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember Tim Lamb
saying something like:

There was a flurry a year or so back, when it was realised that some
*grass safe* chemicals were sufficiently persistent to pass through the
horses gut and affect susceptible garden crops.

I wonder what effect this had on any farmers who used it. I'd think it
might be a bit of a blow for an organic grower.


The chemical in question is designed to kill just about anything except
grass, and breaks down rapidly in animal guts. Its for GRAZING use.

Sadly, it doesn't break down in cellulose, so until the compost is fully
decomposed, it stays in the vegetable material.

Its is, of course, an organic chemical..;-)

Weatherlawyer wrote:


Horses digest most of the stuff they eat.

No. They dont.

They have no second stomach, and most of the grass passes through
undigested.


Cows are ruminants, and their poo is very low in cellulose.

Cattle tend to pass weeds if
they are ever allowed out the shed in order to get them in the first
place.

Bull****. You obviously have never encountered a cow pat.

We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember The Natural Philosopher
saying something like:

Sadly, it doesn't break down in cellulose, so until the compost is fully
decomposed, it stays in the vegetable material.

That's ok then. I was wondering how safe it would be to use horse ****
for composting. Problem solved if time is allowed for nature's course.

Grimly Curmudgeon wrote:
We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember The Natural Philosopher
saying something like:

Sadly, it doesn't break down in cellulose, so until the compost is fully
decomposed, it stays in the vegetable material.

That's ok then. I was wondering how safe it would be to use horse ****
for composting. Problem solved if time is allowed for nature's course.

2-3 years with turning over to aereate. The cellulose has to break down
first, then the chemistry will break down AEOROBICALLY.

Tim Lamb
wibbled on Saturday 10 April 2010 18:39


What do you imagine happens to all the waste from biscuit manufacturing,
vegetable peeling etc.?


Tesco's Value Tinned Stew?

--
Tim Watts

Managers, politicians and environmentalists: Nature's carbon buffer.

"Rick Hughes" wrote in message
...
I have made 3 raised beds in the garden... of aprox 35 sq m area.

Having put in 15 cu m of top soil, now going to put on top a 100mm depth
of well rotted manure, then another 100mm top soil as cover. (with slight
fork over)
I know putting manure in last year and letting it rot over winter would be
first choice - couldn't do that, hence this second method of layering.
First crop will help mix it in.

First crop will be root veg ... 30% potatoes, followed by cabbage,
cauliflower, parsnip & onion.

The Q .. is simple should I use Cow manure or Horse manure ? ....... I
have a stables and farm close by ... and as much of either as I want.

Supposedly Elephant Manure is the best ... but there is a shortage of
visiting elephants in my area - used to have Billy Smarts & Chipperfields
visit several times a year when I was a kid, now the only circus is some
Russians prancing about and dangling on ropes.


Horse manure is best but in any case you need to use stuff that has been
well rotted. In fact horse manure contains more vegetable matter than the
bovine variety because the equine digestive system is very inefficient.
100mm of manure is rather a lot unless you dig it in and mix it with the
soil.

Peter Crosland

Rick Hughes wrote:
I have made 3 raised beds in the garden... of aprox 35 sq m area.

Having put in 15 cu m of top soil, now going to put on top a 100mm
depth of well rotted manure, then another 100mm top soil as cover.
(with slight fork over)
I know putting manure in last year and letting it rot over winter
would be first choice - couldn't do that, hence this second method of
layering. First crop will help mix it in.

First crop will be root veg ... 30% potatoes, followed by cabbage,
cauliflower, parsnip & onion.

The Q .. is simple should I use Cow manure or Horse manure ? .......
I have a stables and farm close by ... and as much of either as I
want.
Cow. This is more digested due to the design of the ruminant gut. Plenty of
available nitrogen. If you use horse, there is too much undigested vegetable
matter that will consume nitrogen in the soil whilst degrading that you wish
the crop to have available.

The nitrogen issue is not so serious for beans and peas as these fix N or at
least the rhizomes do.

Peter Crosland wrote:
"Rick Hughes" wrote in message
...
I have made 3 raised beds in the garden... of aprox 35 sq m area.

Having put in 15 cu m of top soil, now going to put on top a 100mm
depth of well rotted manure, then another 100mm top soil as cover.
(with slight fork over)
I know putting manure in last year and letting it rot over winter
would be first choice - couldn't do that, hence this second method
of layering. First crop will help mix it in.

First crop will be root veg ... 30% potatoes, followed by cabbage,
cauliflower, parsnip & onion.

The Q .. is simple should I use Cow manure or Horse manure ? .......
I have a stables and farm close by ... and as much of either as I
want. Supposedly Elephant Manure is the best ... but there is a shortage
of
visiting elephants in my area - used to have Billy Smarts &
Chipperfields visit several times a year when I was a kid, now the
only circus is some Russians prancing about and dangling on ropes.


Horse manure is best but in any case you need to use stuff that has
been well rotted. In fact horse manure contains more vegetable matter
than the bovine variety because the equine digestive system is very
inefficient. 100mm of manure is rather a lot unless you dig it in and
mix it with the soil.

Horse sh1t is liable to strip the soil of available N for crops unless very
well rotted. In the situation that the OP describes, I'd go for heffer or
even bullsh1t.

"Rick Hughes" wrote in message
...
I have made 3 raised beds in the garden... of aprox 35 sq m area.

Having put in 15 cu m of top soil, now going to put on top a 100mm depth
of well rotted manure, then another 100mm top soil as cover. (with slight
fork over)
I know putting manure in last year and letting it rot over winter would be
first choice - couldn't do that, hence this second method of layering.
First crop will help mix it in.

First crop will be root veg ... 30% potatoes, followed by cabbage,
cauliflower, parsnip & onion.

The Q .. is simple should I use Cow manure or Horse manure ? ....... I
have a stables and farm close by ... and as much of either as I want.

Supposedly Elephant Manure is the best ... but there is a shortage of
visiting elephants in my area - used to have Billy Smarts & Chipperfields
visit several times a year when I was a kid, now the only circus is some
Russians prancing about and dangling on ropes.


Depends on the top soil. If it has not been used for crops you may need no
fertiliser, and such might give you loads of leaves and no roots, or - in
your parsnips - multiforked roots. I should just make sure you keep it
friable with organic material but not necessarily any strong fertiliser
until you see what does well in your first year. Then, decide what if
anything needs to be added to balance it.

S

Clot wrote:
Rick Hughes wrote:
I have made 3 raised beds in the garden... of aprox 35 sq m area.

Having put in 15 cu m of top soil, now going to put on top a 100mm
depth of well rotted manure, then another 100mm top soil as cover.
(with slight fork over)
I know putting manure in last year and letting it rot over winter
would be first choice - couldn't do that, hence this second method of
layering. First crop will help mix it in.

First crop will be root veg ... 30% potatoes, followed by cabbage,
cauliflower, parsnip & onion.

The Q .. is simple should I use Cow manure or Horse manure ? .......
I have a stables and farm close by ... and as much of either as I
want.
Cow. This is more digested due to the design of the ruminant gut. Plenty of
available nitrogen. If you use horse, there is too much undigested vegetable
matter that will consume nitrogen in the soil whilst degrading that you wish
the crop to have available.


This appears to be a statement based on pure fantasy.


For a more accurate description of the nitrogen cycles see

http://www.ext.colostate.edu/pubs/crops/00550.html

The nitrogen issue is not so serious for beans and peas as these fix N or at
least the rhizomes do.

In message , The Natural Philosopher
writes
Clot wrote:
Rick Hughes wrote:
I have made 3 raised beds in the garden... of aprox 35 sq m area.

Having put in 15 cu m of top soil, now going to put on top a 100mm
depth of well rotted manure, then another 100mm top soil as cover.
(with slight fork over)
I know putting manure in last year and letting it rot over winter
would be first choice - couldn't do that, hence this second method of
layering. First crop will help mix it in.

First crop will be root veg ... 30% potatoes, followed by cabbage,
cauliflower, parsnip & onion.

The Q .. is simple should I use Cow manure or Horse manure ? .......
I have a stables and farm close by ... and as much of either as I
want.
Cow. This is more digested due to the design of the ruminant gut.
Plenty of available nitrogen. If you use horse, there is too much
undigested vegetable matter that will consume nitrogen in the soil
whilst degrading that you wish the crop to have available.


This appears to be a statement based on pure fantasy.

Er.. no. I'll hold your coats if you like but...

See section 3 of the Nitrogen Transformations... ploughed down organic
material, low in Nitrogen can temporarily use up available soil
Nitrogen....




For a more accurate description of the nitrogen cycles see

http://www.ext.colostate.edu/pubs/crops/00550.html

The nitrogen issue is not so serious for beans and peas as these fix
N or at least the rhizomes do.

regards


--
Tim Lamb

Clot wrote:
Rick Hughes wrote:
I have made 3 raised beds in the garden... of aprox 35 sq m area.

Having put in 15 cu m of top soil, now going to put on top a 100mm
depth of well rotted manure, then another 100mm top soil as cover.
(with slight fork over)
I know putting manure in last year and letting it rot over winter
would be first choice - couldn't do that, hence this second method of
layering. First crop will help mix it in.

First crop will be root veg ... 30% potatoes, followed by cabbage,
cauliflower, parsnip & onion.

The Q .. is simple should I use Cow manure or Horse manure ? .......
I have a stables and farm close by ... and as much of either as I
want.
Cow. This is more digested due to the design of the ruminant gut.
Plenty of available nitrogen. If you use horse, there is too much
undigested vegetable matter that will consume nitrogen in the soil
whilst degrading that you wish the crop to have available.

The nitrogen issue is not so serious for beans and peas as these fix
N or at least the rhizomes do.

Oops, I should have typed rhizobia.

The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Clot wrote:
Rick Hughes wrote:
I have made 3 raised beds in the garden... of aprox 35 sq m area.

Having put in 15 cu m of top soil, now going to put on top a 100mm
depth of well rotted manure, then another 100mm top soil as cover.
(with slight fork over)
I know putting manure in last year and letting it rot over winter
would be first choice - couldn't do that, hence this second method
of layering. First crop will help mix it in.

First crop will be root veg ... 30% potatoes, followed by cabbage,
cauliflower, parsnip & onion.

The Q .. is simple should I use Cow manure or Horse manure ? .......
I have a stables and farm close by ... and as much of either as I
want.
Cow. This is more digested due to the design of the ruminant gut.
Plenty of available nitrogen. If you use horse, there is too much
undigested vegetable matter that will consume nitrogen in the soil
whilst degrading that you wish the crop to have available.


This appears to be a statement based on pure fantasy.


For a more accurate description of the nitrogen cycles see

http://www.ext.colostate.edu/pubs/crops/00550.html

I'll stick to my view.

"Vass" wrote in message
...




Chicken Sh*t


Unfortunately not an option ... Horse or Cow

"Rick Hughes" wrote in message
...

Having had a lot of replies here .... Googled extensively and also posted
same Q on a couple of gardening forums ... The order of preference for
manure is:
Elephant
Sea Bird & Bat guano
Cow
Pig .. high nutrient, but wet to handle
Chicken / Turkey .... too strong to use direct - needs composting first
Horse ... needs composting first
Rabbit & Sheep ... difficult to collect , high nutrients but does not
improve soil condition.
Slurry ... too messy for home garden use.
Human .. unless composted, some waste treatment plants sell this. Local one
use to have a sign 'Buy your own back' .. interestingly many people reported
tomatoes plants started arriving .. seems tomatoes seeds pass through human
gut unscathed.

The answer to my particular Q is that well rotted cow manure is better for
my purpose.
The reason is that a horse has small intestinal tracts .. what goes in comes
out with a large quantity of undigested vegetable matter ....
This means that many seeds from weeds & grasses are passed straight through
and will then germinate in your garden. You can get round it by composting
well for 2 yrs before use.

Cows with their multiple stomachs ferment food for much longer, killing
majority of seeds.



I went and picked up 3 Ton of very well rotted cow manure ... the farmer has
a compost heap about 40m long, and he dug into it with tractor bucket to the
stuff he knew had been there at least 3 years.
It came out black, crumbly, and did not stink to high heaven.

Whereas the front end of pile was bright green, wet, and seriously stank !
This was not slurry as he does not use slurry pit method.

Added 100mm of this to top of the raised beds, and then 100mm of top soil on
top of that ..... in about 2 weeks will put in seed potatoes.

Somebody mentioned - depends on what had been growing in the soil previously
....... soil was a 36 ton pile of top soil I bought about 8 years ago ...
been sitting there waiting for this task.
It did get heavy infestation of Mares Tail ... which must have been in the
imported soil.
As a result I fully sifted each and every shovel full with a power sifter,
removing all weeds, clay & stones. (20mm mesh)

Soil is probably still a bit heavier than I would like ... but this manure
treatment should help - as will first crop being spuds.

I could add in some sharp sand to help I suppose ... see how manure improves
condition.