One of the local roads was full of holes. The council sent along some guys
with a truck full of tarry stones and a fairly lightweight compactor - the
sort of thing I've seen used on driveways before block paving is laid. They
filled the holes, but the tarry stuff has not stuck in place. So, the result
is the holes are all back again and the road is full of loose tarry stones,
especially in the gutters.

Is this a problem with the temperature? Or the compactor? Or is the material
completely wrong?

If it were me doing it, I'd be looking around for some sort of fast-setting
epoxy resin, but then I'd probably go bankrupt paying for it as there's
probably not a lot of money in pothole-filling.



--
Electric cars are very healthy - when the battery runs out you have to walk
home.

On Feb 3, 1:43*pm, "GB" wrote:
One of the local roads was full of holes. The council sent along some guys
with a truck full

Horse drawn?

Round here they've been cutting out a larger area with a dangle
grinder type thing to get a nice clean square edge and then fill that.
One section of road was so bad, however, it had to be stripped right
back to the concrete, which looked sound, and re-laid. Nice shiny
smooth new surface which looks like it will be fun when next we get
ice on the roads!

It's good to see some council tax being spent on something useful but
I can't hepl feeling it will be used as another excuse to increase it
next year.

MBQ

On Wed, 3 Feb 2010 06:39:41 -0800 (PST), "Man at B&Q"
wrote:

On Feb 3, 1:43*pm, "GB" wrote:
One of the local roads was full of holes. The council sent along some guys
with a truck full

Horse drawn?

Round here they've been cutting out a larger area with a dangle
grinder type thing to get a nice clean square edge and then fill that.
One section of road was so bad, however, it had to be stripped right
back to the concrete, which looked sound, and re-laid. Nice shiny
smooth new surface which looks like it will be fun when next we get
ice on the roads!


That would be the relatively new stone mastic asphalt (SMA) which has
a very low coefficient of friction when newly laid.

In other countries a special, low speed limit is placed on new SMA
until it has developed something approaching a safe skid resistance.
Even after that, warning signs are still placed so that drivers take
special care.

Here, we don't do anything. At some point, a good injury lawyer is
going to exploit this and sue the arse off the relevant highway
authority. Then perhaps we will also see speed limits and proper
signage on British roads. I'm not holding my breath, though.


It's good to see some council tax being spent on something useful but
I can't hepl feeling it will be used as another excuse to increase it
next year.


Where else would the money come from?

Bruce wrote:
On Wed, 3 Feb 2010 06:39:41 -0800 (PST), "Man at B&Q"
wrote:

On Feb 3, 1:43 pm, "GB" wrote:
One of the local roads was full of holes. The council sent along some guys
with a truck full
Horse drawn?

Round here they've been cutting out a larger area with a dangle
grinder type thing to get a nice clean square edge and then fill that.
One section of road was so bad, however, it had to be stripped right
back to the concrete, which looked sound, and re-laid. Nice shiny
smooth new surface which looks like it will be fun when next we get
ice on the roads!


That would be the relatively new stone mastic asphalt (SMA) which has
a very low coefficient of friction when newly laid.

In other countries a special, low speed limit is placed on new SMA
until it has developed something approaching a safe skid resistance.
Even after that, warning signs are still placed so that drivers take
special care.

Here, we don't do anything. At some point, a good injury lawyer is
going to exploit this and sue the arse off the relevant highway
authority. Then perhaps we will also see speed limits and proper
signage on British roads. I'm not holding my breath, though.


It's good to see some council tax being spent on something useful but
I can't hepl feeling it will be used as another excuse to increase it
next year.


Where else would the money come from?

Bankers? That would be very satisfying :-)

Dave

On Wed, 03 Feb 2010 16:58:27 +0000, Dave
wrote:
Bruce wrote:

Where else would the money come from?

Bankers? That would be very satisfying :-)


The best way to prolong the recession is to hit the bankers.

I don't like them any more than you do, but there isn't any other
sector of the economy that is going to get UK PLC out of the hole that
we're in, so the last thing we should do is punish them or frighten
them away.

The people who *should* be punished are the Labour politicians who
dismantled the strict regulation of the banking industry at the end of
the 1990s and into the 2000s and replaced it with an unmanaged
free-for-all of unfettered greed. And we know where that got us.

You will get the chance to eject Brown and Co. from office at the next
General Election. Make sure you use it.

On 03/02/2010 18:16, Bruce wrote:
On Wed, 03 Feb 2010 16:58:27 +0000,
wrote:
Bruce wrote:

Where else would the money come from?

Bankers? That would be very satisfying :-)


The best way to prolong the recession is to hit the bankers.

I don't like them any more than you do, but there isn't any other
sector of the economy that is going to get UK PLC out of the hole that
we're in, so the last thing we should do is punish them or frighten
them away.

The people who *should* be punished are the Labour politicians who
dismantled the strict regulation of the banking industry at the end of
the 1990s and into the 2000s and replaced it with an unmanaged
free-for-all of unfettered greed. And we know where that got us.

You will get the chance to eject Brown and Co. from office at the next
General Election. Make sure you use it.

Can you tell me which party wouldn't have done the same? I would like to
know who to vote for - Greens, SWP, who else?

On Feb 3, 6:16 pm, Bruce wrote:
On Wed, 03 Feb 2010 16:58:27 +0000, Dave
wrote:

Bruce wrote:

Where else would the money come from?

Bankers? That would be very satisfying :-)

The best way to prolong the recession is to hit the bankers.

I don't like them any more than you do, but there isn't any other
sector of the economy that is going to get UK PLC out of the hole that
we're in, so the last thing we should do is punish them or frighten
them away.


you may have a point - was it the V W boss who said recently, more or
less exactly:- "you English are conducting a very interesting
experiment basing your entire economy on cutting each others hair"...

Afraid he may have a point too....


The people who *should* be punished are the Labour politicians who
dismantled the strict regulation of the banking industry at the end of
the 1990s and into the 2000s and replaced it with an unmanaged
free-for-all of unfettered greed. And we know where that got us.

You will get the chance to eject Brown and Co. from office at the next
General Election. Make sure you use it.

indeed but sadly the next lot will make just as much of a balls up in
another (previously unexploited) way...

Best method for a tunnel under the Houses? NB I found some spare
fireworks in me garage last week....

Cheers
JimK

Bruce wrote:
On Wed, 03 Feb 2010 16:58:27 +0000, Dave
wrote:
Bruce wrote:
Where else would the money come from?
Bankers? That would be very satisfying :-)


The best way to prolong the recession is to hit the bankers.

I don't like them any more than you do, but there isn't any other
sector of the economy that is going to get UK PLC out of the hole that
we're in, so the last thing we should do is punish them or frighten
them away.

The people who *should* be punished are the Labour politicians who
dismantled the strict regulation of the banking industry at the end of
the 1990s and into the 2000s and replaced it with an unmanaged
free-for-all of unfettered greed. And we know where that got us.

You will get the chance to eject Brown and Co. from office at the next
General Election. Make sure you use it.

On current reports that is not certain.

Dave

On Wed, 3 Feb 2010 13:43:50 -0000
"GB" wrote:

One of the local roads was full of holes. The council sent along some guys
with a truck full of tarry stones and a fairly lightweight compactor - the
sort of thing I've seen used on driveways before block paving is laid. They
filled the holes, but the tarry stuff has not stuck in place. So, the result
is the holes are all back again and the road is full of loose tarry stones,
especially in the gutters.

Is this a problem with the temperature? Or the compactor? Or is the material
completely wrong?

If it were me doing it, I'd be looking around for some sort of fast-setting
epoxy resin, but then I'd probably go bankrupt paying for it as there's
probably not a lot of money in pothole-filling.




It's 'cos they are all broke, having to buy all that extra salt at a
time when the Chief Exec is expecting her bonus. Rather than doing
it right, they are doing 'something' quick, in the hope that no one
will notice the big bonus.

Local Government Execs are best treated as vermin.

R.

The task has had no improvements since the invention of the car!

I saw a gang doing repairs on a factory internal road where they used a
heater to melt the existing layer before adding and compacting new stuff. It
seemed to work well.

I wonder how much of the cost of a repair goes onto the overheads - eg. Man
with wheel on a stick. Man with yellow paint aerosol. Creation of
spreadsheet to quantify requirements. Putting job out to tender, etc.

We should be "tooling up" and productionising the process.

http://www.mastrad.com/patch.htm

"John" wrote in message
...

The task has had no improvements since the invention of the car!

I saw a gang doing repairs on a factory internal road where they used a
heater to melt the existing layer before adding and compacting new stuff.
It seemed to work well.

I wonder how much of the cost of a repair goes onto the overheads - eg.
Man with wheel on a stick. Man with yellow paint aerosol. Creation of
spreadsheet to quantify requirements. Putting job out to tender, etc.

We should be "tooling up" and productionising the process.

http://www.mastrad.com/patch.htm

Interesting alternative to the usual wheel barrow:

http://jinchangjiang.en.alibaba.com/...g_machine.html

On Feb 3, 3:19 pm, "John" wrote:
The task has had no improvements since the invention of the car!

I saw a gang doing repairs on a factory internal road where they used a
heater to melt the existing layer before adding and compacting new stuff. It
seemed to work well.

I wonder how much of the cost of a repair goes onto the overheads - eg. Man
with wheel on a stick. Man with yellow paint aerosol. Creation of
spreadsheet to quantify requirements. Putting job out to tender, etc.

We should be "tooling up" and productionising the process.

http://www.mastrad.com/patch.htm

what was that monster-virtually-one-man-operated-pothole-fixing-truck-
thing called?

mind I expect the canny "business man" has priced it at 10 whole
pounds less than the cost of doing it the "old" way as described
above....brown's britain...

Cheers
JimK

On Wed, 3 Feb 2010 15:19:09 -0000, John wrote:

The task has had no improvements since the invention of the car!

I saw a gang doing repairs on a factory internal road where they used a
heater to melt the existing layer before adding and compacting new stuff. It
seemed to work well.

I wonder how much of the cost of a repair goes onto the overheads - eg. Man
with wheel on a stick. Man with yellow paint aerosol. Creation of
spreadsheet to quantify requirements. Putting job out to tender, etc.

We should be "tooling up" and productionising the process.

http://www.mastrad.com/patch.htm

Much of the problem seems to be around previous repairs. I wonder how much
better they'd be repaired if all the utilities were held responsible for
all future repair costs to and just around their original repair until such
time as the road is resurfaced?

SteveW

On Wed, 3 Feb 2010 19:26:10 +0000, Steve Walker
wrote:

Much of the problem seems to be around previous repairs. I wonder how much
better they'd be repaired if all the utilities were held responsible for
all future repair costs to and just around their original repair until such
time as the road is resurfaced?


You have hit the nail on the head. By far the biggest problem facing
highway authorities is the variable and often atrocious standard of
reinstatement of trenches after installation or replacement of
services.

This problem worsened dramatically after the utilities were
privatised. Until then, in most areas there were only six or seven
"statutory undertakers" who were allowed to dig a hole in the road.

Currently, there are *over a hundred* organisations who are allowed to
do this. The inevitable result is that standards have plummeted.

John wrote:
The task has had no improvements since the invention of the car!

I saw a gang doing repairs on a factory internal road where they used
a heater to melt the existing layer before adding and compacting new
stuff. It seemed to work well.

I wonder how much of the cost of a repair goes onto the overheads -
eg. Man with wheel on a stick. Man with yellow paint aerosol.
Creation of spreadsheet to quantify requirements. Putting job out to
tender, etc.

Medway Council reckon it costs £300 per pothole. I did e mail offering to
do 2 a day for £250 each, but they didn't reply.


--
Dave - The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk

We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember "The Medway Handyman"
saying something like:

Medway Council reckon it costs £300 per pothole. I did e mail offering to
do 2 a day for £250 each, but they didn't reply.

There's a trucking firm here who make them for free.

TheOldFellow
wibbled on Wednesday 03 February 2010 15:06


Local Government Execs are best treated as vermin.

I agree, except for the "Local"

--
Tim Watts

Managers, politicians and environmentalists: Nature's carbon buffer.

TheOldFellow wrote:
On Wed, 3 Feb 2010 13:43:50 -0000
"GB" wrote:

One of the local roads was full of holes. The council sent along some guys
with a truck full of tarry stones and a fairly lightweight compactor - the
sort of thing I've seen used on driveways before block paving is laid. They
filled the holes, but the tarry stuff has not stuck in place. So, the result
is the holes are all back again and the road is full of loose tarry stones,
especially in the gutters.

Is this a problem with the temperature? Or the compactor? Or is the material
completely wrong?

If it were me doing it, I'd be looking around for some sort of fast-setting
epoxy resin, but then I'd probably go bankrupt paying for it as there's
probably not a lot of money in pothole-filling.




It's 'cos they are all broke, having to buy all that extra salt at a
time when the Chief Exec is expecting her bonus. Rather than doing
it right, they are doing 'something' quick, in the hope that no one
will notice the big bonus.

Local Government Execs are best treated as vermin.

Can you tell us when the open season on them is?

Dave

On Feb 3, 7:43*am, "GB" wrote:
One of the local roads was full of holes. The council sent along some guys
with a truck full of tarry stones and a fairly lightweight compactor - the
sort of thing I've seen used on driveways before block paving is laid. They
filled the holes, but the tarry stuff has not stuck in place. So, the result
is the holes are all back again and the road is full of loose tarry stones,
especially in the gutters.

Is this a problem with the temperature? Or the compactor? Or is the material
completely wrong?

If it were me doing it, I'd be looking around for some sort of fast-setting
epoxy resin, but then I'd probably go bankrupt paying for it as there's
probably not a lot of money in pothole-filling.

--
Electric cars are very healthy - when the battery runs out you have to walk
home.

Im in the US where it get real cold -20f and then it thaws and we get
alot of potholes. They fix them in the cold at around 32f-0c but the
mix isdifferent than summer, they do hold up as its done on the
highways as well. So the guy doing the repairs didnt know what he was
doing and probably used the wrong product.

In article ,
wrote:
The only real solution is to rebuild the road surface from scratch,
which is highly unlikely in most cases because of the prohibitive cost.

A local road here was re-surfaced last year and is now full of holes. Of
course the speed bumps survive without damage. ;-)
Wonder how they cope in countries far colder than here?

--
*Errors have been made. Others will be blamed.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
wrote:
The only real solution is to rebuild the road surface from scratch,
which is highly unlikely in most cases because of the prohibitive
cost.

A local road here was re-surfaced last year and is now full of holes.
Of course the speed bumps survive without damage. ;-)
Wonder how they cope in countries far colder than here?

I'm in N. London, and the roads round here are simply full of holes. We had
a prolonged period of severe frosts followed by thaws. We had some rain as
well as the snow. Also, all the salt put down thawed the snow enough to get
it into the cracks. I'm not sure why it would freeze, though, if the salt
was still doing its job?

Even if the long-term soluction is to resurface all the roads in the
borough, I can't see this being done. Even if the money is found, there
won't be enough machinery. I think that somebody who comes up with a viable
method of patching the holes so they last a year or two will clean up.



--
Electric cars are very healthy - when the battery runs out you have to
walk home.

In article ,
GB wrote:
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
wrote:
The only real solution is to rebuild the road surface from scratch,
which is highly unlikely in most cases because of the prohibitive
cost.

A local road here was re-surfaced last year and is now full of holes.
Of course the speed bumps survive without damage. ;-)
Wonder how they cope in countries far colder than here?

I'm in N. London, and the roads round here are simply full of holes. We
had a prolonged period of severe frosts followed by thaws. We had some
rain as well as the snow. Also, all the salt put down thawed the snow
enough to get it into the cracks. I'm not sure why it would freeze,
though, if the salt was still doing its job?

Even if the long-term soluction is to resurface all the roads in the
borough, I can't see this being done. Even if the money is found, there
won't be enough machinery. I think that somebody who comes up with a
viable method of patching the holes so they last a year or two will
clean up.

Problem seems to be if the road isn't made properly from scratch fill a
hole and another soon appears elsewhere.

--
*Keep honking...I'm reloading.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

GB wrote:
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
wrote:
The only real solution is to rebuild the road surface from scratch,
which is highly unlikely in most cases because of the prohibitive
cost.
A local road here was re-surfaced last year and is now full of holes.
Of course the speed bumps survive without damage. ;-)
Wonder how they cope in countries far colder than here?

I'm in N. London, and the roads round here are simply full of holes. We had
a prolonged period of severe frosts followed by thaws. We had some rain as
well as the snow. Also, all the salt put down thawed the snow enough to get
it into the cracks. I'm not sure why it would freeze, though, if the salt
was still doing its job?

Even if the long-term soluction is to resurface all the roads in the
borough, I can't see this being done. Even if the money is found, there
won't be enough machinery. I think that somebody who comes up with a viable
method of patching the holes so they last a year or two will clean up.

We could go back to cobbled roads perhaps. It could also slow down the
traffic speeds to the local limits, as a bonus.

Dave

GB has brought this to us :
I'm in N. London, and the roads round here are simply full of holes. We had a
prolonged period of severe frosts followed by thaws. We had some rain as well
as the snow. Also, all the salt put down thawed the snow enough to get it
into the cracks. I'm not sure why it would freeze, though, if the salt was
still doing its job?

Apparently putting salt on the road draws heat out of the road, causing
the underlying moisture to freeze. So you could say the salt helps to
damage the road.

--
Regards,
Harry (M1BYT) (L)
http://www.ukradioamateur.co.uk

On Wed, 03 Feb 2010 17:01:06 GMT, Harry Bloomfield wrote:

GB has brought this to us :
I'm in N. London, and the roads round here are simply full of holes. We had a
prolonged period of severe frosts followed by thaws. We had some rain as well
as the snow. Also, all the salt put down thawed the snow enough to get it
into the cracks. I'm not sure why it would freeze, though, if the salt was
still doing its job?

Apparently putting salt on the road draws heat out of the road, causing
the underlying moisture to freeze. So you could say the salt helps to
damage the road.

I'd never thought about it, but that makes sense. As the salt melts the
stuff on top (it doesn't actually melt it, it lowers its melting point so
it will melt at the ambient temperature), it'll need energy to change from
ice to water (latent heat of fusion). It's like the old way of making
ice-cream, adding salt to ice to melt it, so that it absorbs energy and
gets even colder, bringing down the temperature of the container that its
surrounding and cooling the contents.

SteveW

Steve Walker wrote:

Apparently putting salt on the road draws heat out of the road,
causing the underlying moisture to freeze. So you could say the salt
helps to damage the road.

I'd never thought about it, but that makes sense. As the salt melts
the stuff on top (it doesn't actually melt it, it lowers its melting
point so it will melt at the ambient temperature), it'll need energy
to change from ice to water (latent heat of fusion). It's like the
old way of making ice-cream, adding salt to ice to melt it, so that
it absorbs energy and gets even colder, bringing down the temperature
of the container that its surrounding and cooling the contents.

That makes great sense.

In message , "Dave Plowman (News)"
writes
In article ,
wrote:
The only real solution is to rebuild the road surface from scratch,
which is highly unlikely in most cases because of the prohibitive cost.

A local road here was re-surfaced last year and is now full of holes. Of
course the speed bumps survive without damage. ;-)
Wonder how they cope in countries far colder than here?


Surely it's the freeze/thaw cycle that does the damage - what we tend to
ahve plenty of, rather than consitently colder temps per se.
--
Chris French

In article ,
chris French wrote:
In message , "Dave Plowman (News)"
writes
In article ,
wrote:
The only real solution is to rebuild the road surface from scratch,
which is highly unlikely in most cases because of the prohibitive
cost.

A local road here was re-surfaced last year and is now full of holes. Of
course the speed bumps survive without damage. ;-)
Wonder how they cope in countries far colder than here?


Surely it's the freeze/thaw cycle that does the damage - what we tend to
ahve plenty of, rather than consitently colder temps per se.

Doesn't seem to effect motorways. Or main roads - or at least nothing like
the same.

--
*Despite the cost of living, have you noticed how it remains so popular?*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
chris French wrote:
In message , "Dave Plowman (News)"
writes
In article ,
wrote:
The only real solution is to rebuild the road surface from scratch,
which is highly unlikely in most cases because of the prohibitive
cost.
A local road here was re-surfaced last year and is now full of holes. Of
course the speed bumps survive without damage. ;-)
Wonder how they cope in countries far colder than here?


Surely it's the freeze/thaw cycle that does the damage - what we tend to
ahve plenty of, rather than consitently colder temps per se.

Doesn't seem to effect motorways. Or main roads - or at least nothing like
the same.

I live very close to the A6, one of the most important trunk roads in
the country and that is now full of pot holes.

As you say, I have not encountered a pot hole on any motorway I have
travelled on this year and I have done a lot of miles on them, since the
new year.

Dave

Dave formulated the question :
As you say, I have not encountered a pot hole on any motorway I have
travelled on this year and I have done a lot of miles on them, since the new
year.

Not many, but I did see a few - all very quickly repaired over night.

--
Regards,
Harry (M1BYT) (L)
http://www.ukradioamateur.co.uk

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
chris French wrote:
In message , "Dave Plowman (News)"
writes
In article ,
wrote:
The only real solution is to rebuild the road surface from scratch,
which is highly unlikely in most cases because of the prohibitive
cost.

A local road here was re-surfaced last year and is now full of
holes. Of course the speed bumps survive without damage. ;-)
Wonder how they cope in countries far colder than here?


Surely it's the freeze/thaw cycle that does the damage - what we
tend to ahve plenty of, rather than consitently colder temps per se.

Doesn't seem to effect motorways. Or main roads - or at least nothing
like the same.

I noticed a considerable number of potholes all along a section of the M1
last week as I was driving down to Luton from N Leics. They were along many
sections of the motorway and affecting both newish and old sections. I was
quite surprised as my experience has generally been similar to yours.

In message , "Dave Plowman (News)"
writes
In article ,
chris French wrote:
In message , "Dave Plowman (News)"
writes
In article ,
wrote:
The only real solution is to rebuild the road surface from scratch,
which is highly unlikely in most cases because of the prohibitive
cost.

A local road here was re-surfaced last year and is now full of holes. Of
course the speed bumps survive without damage. ;-)
Wonder how they cope in countries far colder than here?


Surely it's the freeze/thaw cycle that does the damage - what we tend to
ahve plenty of, rather than consitently colder temps per se.

Doesn't seem to effect motorways. Or main roads - or at least nothing like
the same.


Presumably more cost/time is put into maintaining motorways and main
roads
--
Chris French

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
wrote:
The only real solution is to rebuild the road surface from scratch,
which is highly unlikely in most cases because of the prohibitive cost.

A local road here was re-surfaced last year and is now full of holes. Of
course the speed bumps survive without damage. ;-)
Wonder how they cope in countries far colder than here?

No speed bumps.

Actually, unsurfaced dirt roads are best for freezing.

My gravel drive is fine..

On 03/02/2010 14:57, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In ,
wrote:
The only real solution is to rebuild the road surface from scratch,
which is highly unlikely in most cases because of the prohibitive cost.

A local road here was re-surfaced last year and is now full of holes. Of
course the speed bumps survive without damage. ;-)
Wonder how they cope in countries far colder than here?

They have holes in the roads, and much patching. Studded tyres also wear
the surface.

Of course if it's below freezing all the time you don't suffer
freeze-thaw in the same way.

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

Wonder how they cope in countries far colder than here?



I think we fare worse due to the frequent freeze / thaw cycles.
Colder countries freeze, and stay frozen for a longer time.

--
Ron