I have just been watching them and a thought crossed my mind.

How do they stop the diesel from going solid in the tanks and pipes?

Dave

On Tue, 19 Jan 2010 21:04:48 +0000, Dave
wrote:

I have just been watching them and a thought crossed my mind.

How do they stop the diesel from going solid in the tanks and pipes?


In Britain there used to be a "winter grade" diesel which didn't wax
up until much lower temperatures were reached. Presumably something
similar is available in very cold climates?

Dave wrote:
I have just been watching them and a thought crossed my mind.

How do they stop the diesel from going solid in the tanks and pipes?

Dave

Use "winter" diesel that includes an 'anti-freeze' additive, just as they
use in this country during the winter months - along with heated tanks,
pumps and filter housings to keep things moving and probably a bit of pipe
lagging (to keep the subject On Topic)!

On Jan 19, 9:04*pm, Dave wrote:
I have just been watching them and a thought crossed my mind.
How do they stop the diesel from going solid in the tanks and pipes?

Recirculating pumps.

Most (all?) petrol FI cars circulate fuel continually between the
engine and tank, the same approach is used in big trucks with heaters
so basically if it is running it stays running (they do not shut off
big construction kit in the coldest parts of the world and big trucks
are no different).

"Bruce" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 19 Jan 2010 21:04:48 +0000, Dave
wrote:

I have just been watching them and a thought crossed my mind.

How do they stop the diesel from going solid in the tanks and pipes?


In Britain there used to be a "winter grade" diesel which didn't wax
up until much lower temperatures were reached. Presumably something
similar is available in very cold climates?

There still is in the UK. In fact, as you suggest, there are several grades
for different climates.

js.b1 wrote:
On Jan 19, 9:04 pm, Dave wrote:
I have just been watching them and a thought crossed my mind.
How do they stop the diesel from going solid in the tanks and pipes?

Recirculating pumps.

Most (all?) petrol FI cars circulate fuel continually between the
engine and tank, the same approach is used in big trucks with heaters
so basically if it is running it stays running (they do not shut off
big construction kit in the coldest parts of the world and big trucks
are no different).

Thanks, I can relate to that with working on military jets and their
engines. I just didn't relate that to diesels and such cold climates.

Many thanks

Dave

On Tue, 19 Jan 2010 21:04:48 +0000, Dave
wrote:

How do they stop the diesel from going solid in the tanks and pipes?

Add petrol to it - 10 to 20% as I recall. American trucks do not have
very sophisticated engines.

In message , Peter Parry
writes
American trucks do not have very sophisticated engines.

I've decided that I don't want sophisticated any more. I prefer
reliable.
--
Bill

Dave wrote:
I have just been watching them and a thought crossed my mind.

How do they stop the diesel from going solid in the tanks and pipes?

I recall seeing additives that would prevent this happening.


--
Dave - The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk

The message
from "The Medway Handyman" contains
these words:

Dave wrote:
I have just been watching them and a thought crossed my mind.

How do they stop the diesel from going solid in the tanks and pipes?

I recall seeing additives that would prevent this happening.

Correct. Though locally-supplied fuel is likely to be formulated for
the local needs. If the engine's allowed to stop, and the whole
vehicle gets cold it's likely to be a case of having to use a blowtorch
on the fuel tank and fuel lines in order to get going again.

We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember Dave
saying something like:

I have just been watching them and a thought crossed my mind.

How do they stop the diesel from going solid in the tanks and pipes?

Lots of anti-waxing additive and particular attention paid to low water
content of the fuel. In extremis it isn't unusual to have heated tanks
and lines.

We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember Appin saying
something like:

If the engine's allowed to stop, and the whole
vehicle gets cold it's likely to be a case of having to use a blowtorch
on the fuel tank and fuel lines in order to get going again.

And the sump, if it gets cold enough.

On Tue, 19 Jan 2010 22:49:15 -0000, "newshound"
wrote:
"Bruce" wrote in message
.. .
On Tue, 19 Jan 2010 21:04:48 +0000, Dave
wrote:

I have just been watching them and a thought crossed my mind.

How do they stop the diesel from going solid in the tanks and pipes?


In Britain there used to be a "winter grade" diesel which didn't wax
up until much lower temperatures were reached. Presumably something
similar is available in very cold climates?

There still is in the UK. In fact, as you suggest, there are several grades
for different climates.


Thanks.

"js.b1" wrote in message
...
On Jan 19, 9:04 pm, Dave wrote:
I have just been watching them and a thought crossed my mind.
How do they stop the diesel from going solid in the tanks and pipes?

Recirculating pumps.

Most (all?) petrol FI cars circulate fuel continually between the
engine and tank, the same approach is used in big trucks with heaters
so basically if it is running it stays running (they do not shut off
big construction kit in the coldest parts of the world and big trucks
are no different).

They even deliver them on the trucks while they are running, as you can see
sometimes on ice road truckers.

"Appin" wrote in message
...
The message
from "The Medway Handyman" contains
these words:

Dave wrote:
I have just been watching them and a thought crossed my mind.

How do they stop the diesel from going solid in the tanks and pipes?

I recall seeing additives that would prevent this happening.

Correct. Though locally-supplied fuel is likely to be formulated for
the local needs. If the engine's allowed to stop, and the whole
vehicle gets cold it's likely to be a case of having to use a blowtorch
on the fuel tank and fuel lines in order to get going again.

The engine oil is the problem, it gets so thick it won't circulate.
Starting an engine that cold will b^&&*r it.
I don't think anyone makes oil that will work over that temp range, well not
one they can a££ord.
I would have though a couple of tanks of different oils and some valves
would work though.

On Jan 19, 11:48 pm, Bill wrote:
In message , Peter Parry
writes

American trucks do not have very sophisticated engines.

I've decided that I don't want sophisticated any more. I prefer
reliable.
--
Bill

ah you need an old Petter PH1 air cooled single cylinder diesel, runs
for weeks on a gallon of the cruddiest disel you can imagine - mind
you 0-60mph might be a while coming up tho....

JimK

On 19 Jan, 21:04, Dave wrote:

How do they stop the diesel from going solid in the tanks and pipes?

a) They search back a week in this ng., for a thread on oil boiler
burners.

b) It doesn't. Diesel doesn't "go solid" and what it does do is a
problem for the tiny clearances in some parts of diesel engines, not
for the "tanks and pipes" scale of plumbing.

Besides which, it's colder at altitude and diesel aircraft
successfully addressed these issues in the 1930s.

In message
, JimK
writes
ah you need an old Petter PH1 air cooled single cylinder diesel, runs
for weeks on a gallon of the cruddiest disel you can imagine - mind you
0-60mph might be a while coming up tho....

Ah a psychic at work. Had an air cooled single cyl Petter in the boat,
followed by a water cooled one. Super little mend it yourself engines,
all parts available, the water cooled one used standard plumbing parts.
In the search for more power, tracked down and spoke to the Petter's
designer, lovely, very helpful man, disgruntled that the legacy and
market had been thrown away in the Lister (Hawker Siddeley?) takeover.

Sadly, we are now on a 2-cyl Mitsubishi.

Who needs speed?
--
Bill

On Jan 19, 11:26*pm, Peter Parry wrote:
On Tue, 19 Jan 2010 21:04:48 +0000, Dave
wrote:

How do they stop the diesel from going solid in the tanks and pipes?

Add petrol to it - 10 to 20% as I recall. *American trucks do not have
very sophisticated engines.

I think my old customers at Detroit Diesel Corporation might object to
that comment.

Emmissions standards in the US are usually tougher than in Europe, and
the engine manufactures have to go to /enormous/ lengths to meet them.

On the OPs question, DDC discovered that a reasonably common technique
for starting a cold truck is to light a small bonfire underneath it.
They made this discovery after they fitted plastic oil-sumps (lighter,
cheaper) to their engines and then got a lot of warranty claims :-)

On Wed, 20 Jan 2010 05:37:56 -0800, Martin Bonner
wibbled:


On the OPs question, DDC discovered that a reasonably common technique
for starting a cold truck is to light a small bonfire underneath it.
They made this discovery after they fitted plastic oil-sumps (lighter,
cheaper) to their engines and then got a lot of warranty claims :-)

I thought everyone knew truckers did that in cold climes?



--
Tim Watts

Managers, politicians and environmentalists: Nature's carbon buffer.

"Andy Dingley" wrote in message
...

Besides which, it's colder at altitude and diesel aircraft
successfully addressed these issues in the 1930s.

IIRC jumbos flying over the arctic have to check the fuel temp periodically
and turn back if its too cold.
They pre heat the fuel on loading if its very cold.

On Wed, 20 Jan 2010 13:59:09 -0000, dennis@home wrote:

Besides which, it's colder at altitude and diesel aircraft
successfully
addressed these issues in the 1930s.

IIRC jumbos flying over the arctic have to check the fuel temp
periodically and turn back if its too cold.

But jet engines don't run on diesel they run on kerosene, which is
much thinner in the first place (28sec v 35sec) and is added to
diesel to keep the wax that causes the problems in solution...

They pre heat the fuel on loading if its very cold.

Wouldn't have though that would have made much difference after a few
hours of flight with outside temps around -40C at 30 odd thousand
feet. Might make a difference in starting on the ground when it's
cold through.

--
Cheers
Dave.

On Jan 20, 1:01 pm, Bill wrote:
In message
, JimK
writes

ah you need an old Petter PH1 air cooled single cylinder diesel, runs
for weeks on a gallon of the cruddiest disel you can imagine - mind you
0-60mph might be a while coming up tho....

Ah a psychic at work. Had an air cooled single cyl Petter in the boat,
followed by a water cooled one. Super little mend it yourself engines,
all parts available, the water cooled one used standard plumbing parts.
In the search for more power, tracked down and spoke to the Petter's
designer, lovely, very helpful man, disgruntled that the legacy and
market had been thrown away in the Lister (Hawker Siddeley?) takeover.

Sadly, we are now on a 2-cyl Mitsubishi.

Who needs speed?
--
Bill

aha - don't suppose you know of a decent Newage gearbox resource ?
workshop manual, spares at reasonable prices etc? just a thought
cheers
JimK

Martin Bonner wrote:

On the OPs question, DDC discovered that a reasonably common technique
for starting a cold truck is to light a small bonfire underneath it.
They made this discovery after they fitted plastic oil-sumps (lighter,
cheaper) to their engines and then got a lot of warranty claims :-)

I've foolishly set fire to my truck. Could I have a new one please?



--
Electric cars are very healthy - when the battery runs out you have to
walk home.

In message
,
JimK writes
On Jan 20, 1:01 pm, Bill wrote:
In message
, JimK
writes

ah you need an old Petter PH1 air cooled single cylinder diesel, runs
for weeks on a gallon of the cruddiest disel you can imagine - mind you
0-60mph might be a while coming up tho....

Ah a psychic at work. Had an air cooled single cyl Petter in the boat,
followed by a water cooled one. Super little mend it yourself engines,
all parts available, the water cooled one used standard plumbing parts.
In the search for more power, tracked down and spoke to the Petter's
designer, lovely, very helpful man, disgruntled that the legacy and
market had been thrown away in the Lister (Hawker Siddeley?) takeover.

Sadly, we are now on a 2-cyl Mitsubishi.

Who needs speed?
--
Bill

aha - don't suppose you know of a decent Newage gearbox resource ?
workshop manual, spares at reasonable prices etc? just a thought
cheers
JimK
I don't think I'll be much help.
The air cooled engine had a centrifugal clutch and no gearbox. I
replaced it because I became worried about the large exposed heavy
clutch rotating at speed near the bottom of the boat.
I rebuilt the water cooled Petter. The engine parts - piston, valves
etc. came off the shelves of a vehicle engine repairer in Liverpool -
and were standard parts. The designer told me that the gearbox that came
with the engine was sourced by Petter from America and that losses in
the gearbox were the reason for the relatively poor performance of that
engine.
Some of the delicate copper pipework was from a medical supply house,
and the galvanised plumbing for water cooled exhaust was from B&Q or
equivalent.
My local marine engine supplier was never cheap and has recently
vanished from the scene.
I've had to buy some heat exchanger parts recently for the
Vetus/Mitsubishi and had to pay over twice what I paid for the engine +
Hurth gearbox for just one small casting.

The failed projects in the shed include the Reliant Robin gearbox marine
conversion I never did, the FNR gearbox from a tipper truck and a
slightly bent gearbox from a Morris Commander marine engine. I really
must put some of this junk on ebay or freecycle. I often wonder how the
freecycle guy is getting on with the "build one good one" 2 Enfield air
cooled diesels I gave him......
--
Bill

On Wed, 20 Jan 2010 08:02:53 -0000, dennis@home wrote:

"Appin" wrote in message
...
The message
from "The Medway Handyman" contains
these words:

Dave wrote:
I have just been watching them and a thought crossed my mind.

How do they stop the diesel from going solid in the tanks and pipes?

I recall seeing additives that would prevent this happening.

Correct. Though locally-supplied fuel is likely to be formulated for
the local needs. If the engine's allowed to stop, and the whole
vehicle gets cold it's likely to be a case of having to use a blowtorch
on the fuel tank and fuel lines in order to get going again.

The engine oil is the problem, it gets so thick it won't circulate.
Starting an engine that cold will b^&&*r it.
I don't think anyone makes oil that will work over that temp range, well not
one they can a££ord.
I would have though a couple of tanks of different oils and some valves
would work though.

Didn't the Germans used to put petrol in the engine oil of their
Messerschmitts during the cold Russian winter? The petrol would thin the
oil so they could start the engines and then as they warmed up, the petrol
would boil off.

SteveW

On Wed, 20 Jan 2010 14:27:18 +0000 (GMT), Dave Liquorice wrote:

On Wed, 20 Jan 2010 13:59:09 -0000, dennis@home wrote:

Besides which, it's colder at altitude and diesel aircraft
successfully
addressed these issues in the 1930s.

IIRC jumbos flying over the arctic have to check the fuel temp
periodically and turn back if its too cold.

But jet engines don't run on diesel they run on kerosene

Flying ones do yes On the other hand, RB211s sat on North Sea rigs to
drive generators run on diesel for startup and until production is
underway, then switch to running on natural gas. ISTR we were putting 120
litres a minute through during testing of each of Shell Gannet's generators
(11kV, 3-ph, 60Hz, 24.5MW).

SteveW

We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember Peter Parry
saying something like:

Add petrol to it - 10 to 20% as I recall. American trucks do not have
very sophisticated engines.

Eh? What drivel is that, now?

Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Wed, 20 Jan 2010 13:59:09 -0000, dennis@home wrote:

Besides which, it's colder at altitude and diesel aircraft
successfully
addressed these issues in the 1930s.
IIRC jumbos flying over the arctic have to check the fuel temp
periodically and turn back if its too cold.

But jet engines don't run on diesel they run on kerosene, which is
much thinner in the first place (28sec v 35sec) and is added to
diesel to keep the wax that causes the problems in solution...

They pre heat the fuel on loading if its very cold.

Wouldn't have though that would have made much difference after a few
hours of flight with outside temps around -40C at 30 odd thousand
feet. Might make a difference in starting on the ground when it's
cold through.

In 24 years of working with aircraft, I never saw or heard of an
aircraft engine that would not start in cold weather.

If the wind was blowing up the exhaust of the engine, you could have a
problem lighting that little candle in the middle if the engine though.
The solution was to hold a large board over the exhaust until you felt
it being blown backwards and then duck and walk sideways away.

Dave

On Wed, 20 Jan 2010 18:31:07 +0000, Dave wrote:
In 24 years of working with aircraft, I never saw or heard of an
aircraft engine that would not start in cold weather.

Albeit pistons, you reminded me of this one that I stumbled upon the
other week:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EkcX0KGIBwk

.... a little reluctant at first, but makes it in the end

Pour point of a typical polyolefin synthetic is about -50oC so no
problem re engine sump oil (Mobil 1). However the big truck companies
may not use it; most do oil changes based on oil analysis & the engine
is kept running so it is the hourly-figure that counts making dead-
dino oil cheaper.

I recall ice-truckers using a propane space heater to heat
transmission oil, so they probably use non-synth throughout. Bet that
makes shifting fun on a cold box.

USA-side used to get Mobil 1 for about 3$/quart (0.945L or some such)
whereas we pay about £10/quart. The benefit for conventional motorists
is having one oil change per year in place of two (those having tiny
4L sumps), but the counter is moisture buildup still occurs so it can
be better to change cheap oil twice as often.

If in winter you find a small patch of mayonaisse under your oil
filler cap ONLY, then the oil is not getting hot enough. Some cars are
more prone to this that others re warmup times, oil filter heat-
exchangers help (warm oil by coolant which heats faster, cool hot oil
by coolant when engine hot), but generally it takes about 20 miles to
get oil warm.

Truck engines are basically power & bearings, emissions are a pain -
but not quite odious. GM, Ford, Chrysler used "truck classification"
to ease past fuel economy & emissions restrictions compared to
passenger cars. The long term problem is electric trucks are almost
impossible - except when called freight trains :-)

Jules wrote:
On Wed, 20 Jan 2010 18:31:07 +0000, Dave wrote:
In 24 years of working with aircraft, I never saw or heard of an
aircraft engine that would not start in cold weather.

Albeit pistons, you reminded me of this one that I stumbled upon the
other week:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EkcX0KGIBwk

... a little reluctant at first, but makes it in the end



I bought my father a DVD about the DH Venom , which has one of the early
jets, for Christmas. It has a start sequence in it. it seems they only
have igniters in two of the combustion chambers, so the start sequence
throws quite a lot of unburned fuel vapour out. Which is then ignited
by the live chambers.

Filmed from the rear. Not straight rear...

Much more spectacular than the little boat diesel I had to fire up on
Sunday. Hadn't been touched for at least a fortnight, it was kind of
reluctant.

Andy

On Wed, 20 Jan 2010 20:23:07 +0000, Andy Champ wrote:
I bought my father a DVD about the DH Venom , which has one of the early
jets, for Christmas. It has a start sequence in it. it seems they only
have igniters in two of the combustion chambers, so the start sequence
throws quite a lot of unburned fuel vapour out. Which is then ignited
by the live chambers.

Aha, reminded me of this one, featuring a RR Derwent:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4pTUeuEv8Uc

.... good stuff at around 4:40. Even when they get it to start sucessfully,
it seems to pour a lot of fuel out of the exhaust and then 'catch' on
only some of the chambers.

Much more spectacular than the little boat diesel I had to fire up on
Sunday. Hadn't been touched for at least a fortnight, it was kind of
reluctant.

Nice I'm looking forward to firing our ancient truck up next spring
once the weather eases off a bit (no brake servo, drums all round, and
only 2wd so it's a bit suicidal to use in the winter here) - it'll be fun
getting it to cough back into life again.

cheers

Jules

We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember Steve Walker
saying something like:

Didn't the Germans used to put petrol in the engine oil of their
Messerschmitts during the cold Russian winter? The petrol would thin the
oil so they could start the engines and then as they warmed up, the petrol
would boil off.

The tanks, too.

On Jan 20, 4:26*pm, "GB" wrote:
Martin Bonner wrote:
On the OPs question, DDC discovered that a reasonably common technique
for starting a cold truck is to light a small bonfire underneath it.
They made this discovery after they fitted plastic oil-sumps (lighter,
cheaper) to their engines and then got a lot of warranty claims :-)

I've foolishly set fire to my truck. Could I have a new one please?

I don't understand their business model, but it seems that American
truck engines come with a life-time parts and labo[u]r warranty - and
the engines failing to withstand SOP like lighting a bonfire
underneath is covered.

The message
from Grimly Curmudgeon contains these words:

We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember Appin saying
something like:

If the engine's allowed to stop, and the whole
vehicle gets cold it's likely to be a case of having to use a blowtorch
on the fuel tank and fuel lines in order to get going again.

And the sump, if it gets cold enough.

In those parts every sump has a sump heater and batteries have either a
heated pad underneath them or a heated blanket around them. Both
normally powered by mains voltage. In cities like Winnipeg in Canada
even the parking meters have power connections so that you can plug in
your car's sump and battery heaters when you park your car. There's
normally a trailing plug coming through the radiator grille. No chance
of a battery working at -30 degrees Celsius.

On Thu, 21 Jan 2010 23:06:58 +0000, Appin wrote:
In those parts every sump has a sump heater

Yes - or a block heater (sump for warming oil, block for warming coolant).
Sump heaters which just attach magnetically are cheap and pretty common
around here (not much use if you have a plastic sump

No chance of a battery working at -30 degrees Celsius.

That's wrong in my experience; we get *lots* of winter days where it's
that cold here and have never had a problem. Further north though and I
expect it could be down to -50...

"Jules" wrote in message
news
On Thu, 21 Jan 2010 23:06:58 +0000, Appin wrote:
In those parts every sump has a sump heater

Yes - or a block heater (sump for warming oil, block for warming coolant).
Sump heaters which just attach magnetically are cheap and pretty common
around here (not much use if you have a plastic sump

No chance of a battery working at -30 degrees Celsius.

That's wrong in my experience; we get *lots* of winter days where it's
that cold here and have never had a problem. Further north though and I
expect it could be down to -50...

Lada manuals told you to turn the headlamps on prior to starting the car if
it was very cold in order to warm the battery up enough to provide juice for
the starter motor.

On Fri, 22 Jan 2010 14:59:50 +0000, Clive George wrote:
Lada manuals told you to turn the headlamps on prior to starting the car if
it was very cold in order to warm the battery up enough to provide juice for
the starter motor.

Funny thing is, I've always done that. It's a habit I've always had, and
I have a feeling it derives from kid logic - even as a boy I could
appreciate that turning a car engine over took a lot of juice, so my
kid-theory went that turning everything non-essential off would be helpful.

Of course in practice it makes no difference except possibly in some very
extreme situations, but it's a habit that I just can't seem to shake :-)

cheers

J.