Any ideas for a faulty flow of usually reliable kerosene for CH boiler.

on 09/01/2010, Phil Donnelly supposed :
Any ideas for a faulty flow of usually reliable kerosene for CH boiler.

Plug of ice in a pipe?

--
Regards,
Harry (M1BYT) (L)
http://www.ukradioamateur.co.uk

On Sat, 09 Jan 2010 14:29:49 GMT, Harry Bloomfield wrote:

Any ideas for a faulty flow of usually reliable kerosene for CH
boiler.

Plug of ice in a pipe?

That would have my bet. Oil floats on water so water collects at any
low points in the pipework.

--
Cheers
Dave.

At Aviemore with deisel engine we used to thin with a small amount of
petrol.


"Phil Donnelly" wrote in message
...
Any ideas for a faulty flow of usually reliable kerosene for CH boiler.

We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember "Stewart"
saying something like:

"Phil Donnelly" wrote in message
...
Any ideas for a faulty flow of usually reliable kerosene for CH boiler.

At Aviemore with deisel engine we used to thin with a small amount of
petrol.

Not thinning it - keeping the waxes dissolved.

Also, mentioning putting petrol into diesel isn't relevant to a heating
oil thread. It would be pretty stupid putting petrol into a kerosene
tank.

Grimly Curmudgeon wrote:


Also, mentioning putting petrol into diesel isn't relevant to a heating
oil thread. It would be pretty stupid putting petrol into a kerosene
tank.

Stupid, as in dangerous, ill-advised or just pointless? (Assuming we're
only talking a small percentage of petrol). Just curious.

On 12 Jan, 16:02, Dave Osborne wrote:

Stupid, as in dangerous, ill-advised or just pointless?

Pointless. Diesel fuel doesn't "freeze", and it doesn't "freeze in the
pipes". What happens is that Summer-grade diesel contains waxes
(they're removed for deep-Winter grades), and these waxes freeze,
freezing out as fairly large crystals. As the crystals separate from
the diesel (i.e. they form "clots"), a little wax can go a long way to
stopping an engine that has a small fuel filter (with small pores) or
the valves of an injection pump. If you decant a small sample of
"waxed up, frozen diesel" you might not even be able to see the
difference, yet it's enough to block a filter (try filtering it
through cold filter paper though, and see what residue it leaves).

There's a lot that can be done to reduce this effect:

* Dewatered fuel. Water is generally bad here, but not so you'd
notice. A plug of water settling out in the bottom of a pipe bend and
freezing solid is more of a problem.

* Dewaxed fuel. Winter blends, which come in a range of severities.

* Heating the fuel, usually electrically (wrap band on the filter
casing). For mild UK Winters, this is enough. The injection pump is
warm enough already to not be a problem.

* Heating the fuel. Some Eastern European kit has a separate header
fuel tank that's heated by the engine (usually oil-heated, as engines
designed for this weather are often air-cooled). This tank contains
enough fuel to start and warm through the engine, and it has a mains-
powered plug-in heater for starting.

* Redesigning the injection pump, so that valves aren't jammed by wax
buildup. Mostly this involves smoothing out ports and paths so that
crystals aren't trapped to gradually build up, but are instead
continually washed through by the bulk fuel.

* Moving the fuel filter inside the engine bay. Trucks with chassis-
mounted filters suffer much worse than cars.

* Diluting the fuel with a convenient wax solvent, e.g. petrol. This
isn't about "antifreeze for fuels", it's just about dissolving that
small proportion of wax in a solvent that doesn't give it up so
easily.

In a heating boiler, there's no high-pressure injection system as for
a diesel engine, so clearances are bigger. A bit of wax isn't going to
stop it anyway.

Andy Dingley wrote:
On 12 Jan, 16:02, Dave Osborne wrote:

Stupid, as in dangerous, ill-advised or just pointless?

Pointless. Diesel fuel doesn't "freeze", and it doesn't "freeze in the
pipes". What happens is that Summer-grade diesel contains waxes
(they're removed for deep-Winter grades), and these waxes freeze,
freezing out as fairly large crystals. As the crystals separate from
the diesel (i.e. they form "clots"), a little wax can go a long way to
stopping an engine that has a small fuel filter (with small pores) or
the valves of an injection pump. If you decant a small sample of
"waxed up, frozen diesel" you might not even be able to see the
difference, yet it's enough to block a filter (try filtering it
through cold filter paper though, and see what residue it leaves).

There's a lot that can be done to reduce this effect:

* Dewatered fuel. Water is generally bad here, but not so you'd
notice. A plug of water settling out in the bottom of a pipe bend and
freezing solid is more of a problem.

* Dewaxed fuel. Winter blends, which come in a range of severities.

* Heating the fuel, usually electrically (wrap band on the filter
casing). For mild UK Winters, this is enough. The injection pump is
warm enough already to not be a problem.

* Heating the fuel. Some Eastern European kit has a separate header
fuel tank that's heated by the engine (usually oil-heated, as engines
designed for this weather are often air-cooled). This tank contains
enough fuel to start and warm through the engine, and it has a mains-
powered plug-in heater for starting.

* Redesigning the injection pump, so that valves aren't jammed by wax
buildup. Mostly this involves smoothing out ports and paths so that
crystals aren't trapped to gradually build up, but are instead
continually washed through by the bulk fuel.

* Moving the fuel filter inside the engine bay. Trucks with chassis-
mounted filters suffer much worse than cars.

* Diluting the fuel with a convenient wax solvent, e.g. petrol. This
isn't about "antifreeze for fuels", it's just about dissolving that
small proportion of wax in a solvent that doesn't give it up so
easily.

In a heating boiler, there's no high-pressure injection system as for
a diesel engine, so clearances are bigger. A bit of wax isn't going to
stop it anyway.

Thanks for that Andy. However, GC actually said that putting petrol in a
*kerosene* tank was stupid. I was wandering if this was because it would
be pointless (as there is no wax in kerosene) or dangerous (because the
boiler might explode)?

We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember Dave Osborne
saying something like:

Thanks for that Andy. However, GC actually said that putting petrol in a
*kerosene* tank was stupid. I was wandering if this was because it would
be pointless (as there is no wax in kerosene) or dangerous (because the
boiler might explode)?

I was thinking of the danger aspect. It *should* mix well, but what if
it doesn't and a slug of petrol gets drawn into the fuel line? Also,
raising the volatility of a kerosene fuel in a domestic burner (or any
flame application for that matter) strikes me as foolhardy. Again, who
knows what ratio to add, it might take very little to cause a problem.

Lobbing a gallon of petrol into a diesel tank on a truck or other plant
is a different thing entirely and is a practice which has been carried
out for decades, quite safely.

On Mon, 11 Jan 2010 17:01:49 +0000, Grimly Curmudgeon
wrote:

Also, mentioning putting petrol into diesel isn't relevant to a heating
oil thread. It would be pretty stupid putting petrol into a kerosene
tank.

Until about 15 years ago the US and many others in the polar regions
used to use a 50-50 kerosine-petrol mix (called JP4 or F40 or AVTAG)
precisely because it didn't freeze until about -60 deg C meaning it
could often be kept under cover or buried in a snowbank until it was
needed. It is a bit of a dodgy fuel though needing very careful
handling but it was extensively used for cooking and space heating
purposes by almost every one of the Polar bases.

--

Harry Bloomfield wrote:
on 09/01/2010, Phil Donnelly supposed :
Any ideas for a faulty flow of usually reliable kerosene for CH boiler.

Plug of ice in a pipe?

That would be my bet as well. Kerosene attracts water almost as much as
a piece of meat hung from a tree attracts bluebottles.

It is a well known problem with jet aircraft and I would suggest a
regular check for water from the feed from the tank. Get a small jam jar
and get some fuel into it and let it settle. You don't need a full jar,
as the water will be the first thing to come out.

Dave

We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember Mike saying
something like:

Until about 15 years ago the US and many others in the polar regions
used to use a 50-50 kerosine-petrol mix (called JP4 or F40 or AVTAG)
precisely because it didn't freeze until about -60 deg C meaning it
could often be kept under cover or buried in a snowbank until it was
needed. It is a bit of a dodgy fuel though needing very careful
handling but it was extensively used for cooking and space heating
purposes by almost every one of the Polar bases.

Military expediency, fine.
Domestic - nonono Nanook.

Mike wrote:
On Mon, 11 Jan 2010 17:01:49 +0000, Grimly Curmudgeon
wrote:

Also, mentioning putting petrol into diesel isn't relevant to a heating
oil thread. It would be pretty stupid putting petrol into a kerosene
tank.

Until about 15 years ago the US and many others in the polar regions
used to use a 50-50 kerosine-petrol mix (called JP4 or F40 or AVTAG)
precisely because it didn't freeze until about -60 deg C meaning it
could often be kept under cover or buried in a snowbank until it was
needed. It is a bit of a dodgy fuel though needing very careful
handling but it was extensively used for cooking and space heating
purposes by almost every one of the Polar bases.

I've done a bit of googling because I don't have my oils and fuels books
any more. Wouldn't it be AVCAT that was mixed with chemicals that
prevent it from freezing?

I've worked with AVTUR, AVTAG and AVCAT and I don't remember any of them
smelling of petrol, but the AVCAT did irritate the skin a lot.

Perhaps the addition of petrol was done to allow easier starting in the
cold regions of North America. This subject came up some time late last
year in this ng.

Dave

On 13 Jan, 15:37, Mike wrote:

Until about 15 years ago the US and many others in the polar regions
used to use a 50-50 kerosine-petrol mix (called JP4 or *F40 or AVTAG)

JP-4 - the original purpose behind it was for storage on carriers with
mixed piston / jet fleets. It's a literal mixture (on demand) of AVGAS
from the piston engine tanks and the kerosene component. AFAIR this
kerosene was a ship boiler fuel oil.

JP-5 was a raised flashpoint fuel that replaced it, for better safety
on carriers.

JP-6, JP-7 & JPTS were the skunk works specials.

JP-8 is the modern replacement. Supposedly cheaper to make, it's also
less flammable, less chemically hazardous, and can be used in colder
weather. It's standard kit as a non-gasoline Arctic fuel, for
everything from helicopters to stoves.

In a heating boiler, there's no high-pressure injection system as for
a diesel engine, so clearances are bigger. A bit of wax isn't going to
stop it anyway.

Claptrap - you obviously haven't had any experience of removing wax
from heating boiler fuel lines in cold UK winter weather, nor of
clogged burner nozzles!