Well, mine and my next-door neighbours...

I don't know the make and model of next door's condensing boiler, but
it was installed in their kitchen in last three years, replacing a
back-boiler. At the same time, a living-flame gas-fire was installed
in the lounge.

A couple of summers ago they had the loft insulation increased to
270mm, while SWMBO and I added 100mm of space blanket to the massive
25mm that the house was originally built with.

Our boiler is a 30-year-old Glowworm.

The recent snow that has fallen on the roofs has resulted in an
opportunity to see how the two houses compare in terms of heat losses.

Surprisingly, the snow coverage has remained the same, suggesting not
much difference in the heat losses into the lofts.

More surprisingly, the areas of snow that have melted around the
chimney stacks is quite different: about 4' of clear area around my
neighbour's stack, almost no clear snow around mine.

From these observations I suggest that their 'living flame' gas fire
is pumping more total heat up the chimney than my back-boiler, and
that the 'waste' heat from my set-up is staying mostly within the
house, keeping it warm.

It would appear that my setup, taken a whole, is 'wasting' somewhat
less heat than my neighbour's modern efficient system...and as this is
the season of highest heating demands, perhaps there is less to gained
overall by going 'modern' than claims might suggest...

TF

wrote:

My house also is well-insulated (windows, walls, roof) and I do wonder just
how much better more modern setups really are. I've been tempted to go for
this 400 quid scrappage thing but I'm inclined to think "if it ain't broke
don't fix it" which is more than can be said for most modern boilers which
seem to last only a few years.

Our boiler was last looked at four years ago, and the service engineer
said the same thing about their reliability, going on to mention that
his dad's Glowworm was 43 years old and never gave any trouble.

At the start of the heating season I clean out the jockey tank, and
add inhibitor. Among other things it helps keep the kettling to a
minimum.

I also have my doubts about whether the scrappage scheme was 'worth
it'; when it was proposed, the Glowworm wasn't on the list...

My house also is well-insulated (windows, walls, roof) and I do wonder just
how much better more modern setups really are. I've been tempted to go for
this 400 quid scrappage thing but I'm inclined to think "if it ain't broke
don't fix it" which is more than can be said for most modern boilers which
seem to last only a few years.


Too much duffo electronics in them!..

--
Tony Sayer

Owner of a Gloworm there .. and the wondrous Suprima here;(..

On Jan 8, 3:57*pm, wrote:
Thus spake Terry Fields ) unto the assembled multitudes:

I don't know the make and model of next door's condensing boiler, but
it was installed in their kitchen in last three years, replacing a
back-boiler. At the same time, a living-flame gas-fire was installed
in the lounge.
He sounds a silly billy if hes running a gas fire with an efficiency
of 55% and hes got a condensing boiler with a 90%+ efficiency. The
snow melting might come down to fact his fire doesn't have a flue
liner like your back boiler. Your flue liner will insulate some of the
heat from getting to the chimney brickwork. The flue gasses out of the
top of your flue could be around 150c, his condensing boiler gases
will be more than half that.

But theres nowt so queer as folk - perhaps his SWMBO likes the living
room at a roasting 26c which you can only really achieve with a fire.
Or maybe they don't give a monkeys about the gas bill. Maybe his house
is heated to 22c and yours is a few degrees cooler?

The only thing you can say with certainty is a condensing boiler is
more energy efficient than a bbu. How the humans operate the systems
is not as scientific or certain

Dave.

On 08/01/2010 15:57, wrote:
Thus spake Terry Fields ) unto the assembled multitudes:

I don't know the make and model of next door's condensing boiler, but
it was installed in their kitchen in last three years, replacing a
back-boiler. At the same time, a living-flame gas-fire was installed
in the lounge.

A couple of summers ago they had the loft insulation increased to
270mm, while SWMBO and I added 100mm of space blanket to the massive
25mm that the house was originally built with.

Our boiler is a 30-year-old Glowworm.

[...]

It would appear that my setup, taken a whole, is 'wasting' somewhat
less heat than my neighbour's modern efficient system...and as this is
the season of highest heating demands, perhaps there is less to gained
overall by going 'modern' than claims might suggest...

I too have a back-boiler Glowworm of what must be similar vintage. Apart
from making kettling noises, and despite not having been serviced for several
years, it seems to work just fine (touch wood). I was told last time that
they're so simple they don't actually need much in the way of maintenance, but
I feel I've taken that a little too literally :-)

My house also is well-insulated (windows, walls, roof) and I do wonder just
how much better more modern setups really are. I've been tempted to go for
this 400 quid scrappage thing but I'm inclined to think "if it ain't broke
don't fix it" which is more than can be said for most modern boilers which
seem to last only a few years.


My boiler was fitted in '92, a Wickes 50,(nothing fancy that I cannot
sort out myself) I too have been looking at the scrappage scheme.
Apart from a thermocouple on average every 3 years (about a fiver)and a
gas valve coil 2 years ago it has kept my house warm enough,the
scrappage site shows it as 65% efficient.
If I was to replace it with an "A"rated boiler how long would it take to
recuperate my costs of spending 2k+ (would do it myself as I did the
last one but the regs dictate otherwise, although I have no intention of
moving and when I am dead I don't think I will gave a toss) compared
with the existing which is still working fine.
I see this scheme as a government boost to the plumbing trade so they
can get VAT income to the detriment of the householder.
As a stealth tax I have to give them 10 out of 10 for their deviousness.
Come the election I know who I will not be voting for!

--
Corporal Jones
"I don't like it up me"

Terry Fields wrote:
Well, mine and my next-door neighbours...

I don't know the make and model of next door's condensing boiler, but
it was installed in their kitchen in last three years, replacing a
back-boiler. At the same time, a living-flame gas-fire was installed
in the lounge.



The recent snow that has fallen on the roofs has resulted in an
opportunity to see how the two houses compare in terms of heat losses.

Surprisingly, the snow coverage has remained the same, suggesting not
much difference in the heat losses into the lofts.


One should always be careful ( the press especially the green press
arent) about drawing conclusions from the relative amounts of snow/frost
on roofs.

I would expect a major factor besides insulation to be how much the top
floor is heated. Factors such as using a bedroom as a study etc could
make a big difference.

I am however urprised to see on a row of 4 2 year old terraced cottages
near me that the roofs is well covered by snow except for a 3/4 foot
strip along the party walls - there are no chimneys ! Does this suggest
an insulation fault or just the way the party walls were built ?

On Fri, 08 Jan 2010 17:52:10 +0000, robert wrote:

Terry Fields wrote:
Well, mine and my next-door neighbours...

I don't know the make and model of next door's condensing boiler, but
it was installed in their kitchen in last three years, replacing a
back-boiler. At the same time, a living-flame gas-fire was installed in
the lounge.



The recent snow that has fallen on the roofs has resulted in an
opportunity to see how the two houses compare in terms of heat losses.

Surprisingly, the snow coverage has remained the same, suggesting not
much difference in the heat losses into the lofts.


One should always be careful ( the press especially the green press
arent) about drawing conclusions from the relative amounts of snow/frost
on roofs.

I would expect a major factor besides insulation to be how much the top
floor is heated. Factors such as using a bedroom as a study etc could
make a big difference.

Also, what does the neighbour have the boiler output temperature set to?
Wouldn't that make a difference?

--
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
http://www.mirrorservice.org

"CorporalJones" wrote in message
om...
On 08/01/2010 15:57, wrote:
Thus spake Terry Fields ) unto the assembled
multitudes:

I don't know the make and model of next door's condensing boiler, but
it was installed in their kitchen in last three years, replacing a
back-boiler. At the same time, a living-flame gas-fire was installed
in the lounge.

A couple of summers ago they had the loft insulation increased to
270mm, while SWMBO and I added 100mm of space blanket to the massive
25mm that the house was originally built with.

Our boiler is a 30-year-old Glowworm.

[...]

It would appear that my setup, taken a whole, is 'wasting' somewhat
less heat than my neighbour's modern efficient system...and as this is
the season of highest heating demands, perhaps there is less to gained
overall by going 'modern' than claims might suggest...

I too have a back-boiler Glowworm of what must be similar vintage. Apart
from making kettling noises, and despite not having been serviced for
several
years, it seems to work just fine (touch wood). I was told last time
that
they're so simple they don't actually need much in the way of
maintenance, but
I feel I've taken that a little too literally :-)

My house also is well-insulated (windows, walls, roof) and I do wonder
just
how much better more modern setups really are. I've been tempted to go
for
this 400 quid scrappage thing but I'm inclined to think "if it ain't
broke
don't fix it" which is more than can be said for most modern boilers
which
seem to last only a few years.


My boiler was fitted in '92, a Wickes 50,(nothing fancy that I cannot sort
out myself) I too have been looking at the scrappage scheme.
Apart from a thermocouple on average every 3 years (about a fiver)and a
gas valve coil 2 years ago it has kept my house warm enough,the scrappage
site shows it as 65% efficient.
If I was to replace it with an "A"rated boiler how long would it take to
recuperate my costs of spending 2k+ (would do it myself as I did the last
one but the regs dictate otherwise, although I have no intention of moving
and when I am dead I don't think I will gave a toss) compared with the
existing which is still working fine.
I see this scheme as a government boost to the plumbing trade so they can
get VAT income to the detriment of the householder.
As a stealth tax I have to give them 10 out of 10 for their deviousness.
Come the election I know who I will not be voting for!

--
Corporal Jones
"I don't like it up me"

What regs say you can't fit your own boiler? The regulations say that you
must be competant - I also fitted my own Potterton Netaheat in 1989 and I've
only had to change one PCB (£55 exchange and the cowl (can't think of the
precise description) over the flame at under £2. I intend to keep it as
long as possible. I'm sure that any CO2 gain will be lost in the
manufacturing of the any replacement therefore the longer it's delayed the
better my contribution - same reason that I still run a 10 year old car.

Peter

On Jan 8, 6:34*pm, "Peter Andrews"
wrote:
What regs say you can't fit your own boiler?
The regulations say that you must be competant

Correct.

The big problem with GCH is the lack of real radiant heat sources.
DFE are a joke because their efficiency does not truly reflect the
rest-of-house heat drawn up the chimney.

A colleague got a 26" IPS monitor, glass with radiant embedded
elements, combined the two with a 3hr video of a real fire and it
provides a radiant focal point. Thus far the monitor panel is not
suffering, but it is very effective compared to the electric versions
which are a pretty sad effort. If the monitor panel does suffer he
will rip apart one of the cheaper fake electric fires and fit an LCD
in there.

Places in Germany do carry a storage heater embedded into a fire -
that gives cheap 4-5p overnight charge plus boost capability, which
some have hacked apart to fit a TFT panel into with video of a real
fire (or goldfish bowl which must look quite funny).

On Fri, 08 Jan 2010 15:48:59 +0000, Terry Fields wrote:

More surprisingly, the areas of snow that have melted around the
chimney stacks is quite different: about 4' of clear area around my
neighbour's stack, almost no clear snow around mine.

From these observations I suggest that their 'living flame' gas fire
is pumping more total heat up the chimney than my back-boiler, and
that the 'waste' heat from my set-up is staying mostly within the
house, keeping it warm.

It would appear that my setup, taken a whole, is 'wasting' somewhat
less heat than my neighbour's modern efficient system...and as this is
the season of highest heating demands, perhaps there is less to gained
overall by going 'modern' than claims might suggest...

Whilst living flame types are notoriously inefficient there's also the
difference that their fire almost certainly uses the unlined flue, heating
the brickwork directly, whilst your back boiler will have a flue liner,
giving some decoupling between the flue (and the heat being lost up it)
and the masonry of the chimney stack.



--
John Stumbles -- http://yaph.co.uk

My karma ran over my dogma

"Terry Fields" wrote in message
...

Well, mine and my next-door neighbours...

I don't know the make and model of next door's condensing boiler, but
it was installed in their kitchen in last three years, replacing a
back-boiler. At the same time, a living-flame gas-fire was installed
in the lounge.

A couple of summers ago they had the loft insulation increased to
270mm, while SWMBO and I added 100mm of space blanket to the massive
25mm that the house was originally built with.

Our boiler is a 30-year-old Glowworm.

The recent snow that has fallen on the roofs has resulted in an
opportunity to see how the two houses compare in terms of heat losses.

Surprisingly, the snow coverage has remained the same, suggesting not
much difference in the heat losses into the lofts.

More surprisingly, the areas of snow that have melted around the
chimney stacks is quite different: about 4' of clear area around my
neighbour's stack, almost no clear snow around mine.

From these observations I suggest that their 'living flame' gas fire
is pumping more total heat up the chimney than my back-boiler, and
that the 'waste' heat from my set-up is staying mostly within the
house, keeping it warm.

It would appear that my setup, taken a whole, is 'wasting' somewhat
less heat than my neighbour's modern efficient system...and as this is
the season of highest heating demands, perhaps there is less to gained
overall by going 'modern' than claims might suggest...

Their setup is better if they do not used the inefficient gas fire.

"Peter Andrews" wrote in message
...

What regs say you can't fit your own boiler? The regulations say that you
must be competant - I also fitted my own Potterton Netaheat in 1989 and
I've

If you are competent you can fit it. You do not need certification or
qualifications.

"robert" wrote in message
...

I am however urprised to see on a row of 4 2 year old terraced cottages
near me that the roofs is well covered by snow except for a 3/4 foot strip
along the party walls - there are no chimneys ! Does this suggest an
insulation fault or just the way the party walls were built ?

The wall gets heated and heat conducts up the brickwork.

YAPH wrote:

On Fri, 08 Jan 2010 15:48:59 +0000, Terry Fields wrote:

More surprisingly, the areas of snow that have melted around the
chimney stacks is quite different: about 4' of clear area around my
neighbour's stack, almost no clear snow around mine.

From these observations I suggest that their 'living flame' gas fire
is pumping more total heat up the chimney than my back-boiler, and
that the 'waste' heat from my set-up is staying mostly within the
house, keeping it warm.

It would appear that my setup, taken a whole, is 'wasting' somewhat
less heat than my neighbour's modern efficient system...and as this is
the season of highest heating demands, perhaps there is less to gained
overall by going 'modern' than claims might suggest...

Whilst living flame types are notoriously inefficient there's also the
difference that their fire almost certainly uses the unlined flue, heating
the brickwork directly, whilst your back boiler will have a flue liner,
giving some decoupling between the flue (and the heat being lost up it)
and the masonry of the chimney stack.

That's quite possible, unfortunately there's no way of estimating the
variables such as convection and radiation from the liner.

The exit temperature at the chimney cowl can't be very high, though.
as pigeons park themselves on it and don't seem to get cooked!

TF

robert wrote:


I am however urprised to see on a row of 4 2 year old terraced cottages
near me that the roofs is well covered by snow except for a 3/4 foot
strip along the party walls - there are no chimneys ! Does this suggest
an insulation fault or just the way the party walls were built ?

I've never seen that on the semis or maisonettes round here.

Terry Fields wrote:
robert wrote:

I am however urprised to see on a row of 4 2 year old terraced cottages
near me that the roofs is well covered by snow except for a 3/4 foot
strip along the party walls - there are no chimneys ! Does this suggest
an insulation fault or just the way the party walls were built ?

I've never seen that on the semis or maisonettes round here.

is pretty obvious that they have left the party wall as a cold
bridge..carrying the internal masonry up into the roof space without
insulating it.


Obviously a strip of celotex each side of it is the way to go.

I have the same sorts of issues with chimneys here..they are warm in my
'cold loft' when fires run. and snop around thenm is somewhat more melted.


Anther reason to use insulated flue liners maybe?

Doctor Drivel explained :
The wall gets heated and heat conducts up the brickwork.

Are they not cavity walls, with no CVI?

Ours is and heat rises straight up the cavity and melts the snow in a
strip directly above it.

--
Regards,
Harry (M1BYT) (L)
http://www.ukradioamateur.co.uk

"Terry Fields" wrote in message
...

wrote:

My house also is well-insulated (windows, walls, roof) and I do wonder
just
how much better more modern setups really are. I've been tempted to go
for
this 400 quid scrappage thing but I'm inclined to think "if it ain't broke
don't fix it" which is more than can be said for most modern boilers which
seem to last only a few years.

Our boiler was last looked at four years ago, and the service engineer
said the same thing about their reliability, going on to mention that
his dad's Glowworm was 43 years old and never gave any trouble.

It would be worthy getting rid.The payback would not be that long. Also
there is not much life left in it.

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
Terry Fields wrote:
robert wrote:

I am however urprised to see on a row of 4 2 year old terraced cottages
near me that the roofs is well covered by snow except for a 3/4 foot
strip along the party walls - there are no chimneys ! Does this suggest
an insulation fault or just the way the party walls were built ?

I've never seen that on the semis or maisonettes round here.

is pretty obvious that they have left the party wall as a cold
bridge..carrying the internal masonry up into the roof space without
insulating it.

Obviously a strip of celotex each side of it is the way to go.

That will solve nothing.

I have the same sorts of issues with chimneys here..they are warm in my
'cold loft' when fires run. and snow around thenm is somewhat more melted.

Why would you want to stop wasted heat entering the loft? If anything that
is what you want, rather than it going out to atmosphere.

In message , Peter Andrews
writes

"CorporalJones" wrote in message
. com...
On 08/01/2010 15:57, wrote:
Thus spake Terry Fields ) unto the assembled
multitudes:

I don't know the make and model of next door's condensing boiler, but
it was installed in their kitchen in last three years, replacing a
back-boiler. At the same time, a living-flame gas-fire was installed
in the lounge.

A couple of summers ago they had the loft insulation increased to
270mm, while SWMBO and I added 100mm of space blanket to the massive
25mm that the house was originally built with.

Our boiler is a 30-year-old Glowworm.

[...]

It would appear that my setup, taken a whole, is 'wasting' somewhat
less heat than my neighbour's modern efficient system...and as this is
the season of highest heating demands, perhaps there is less to gained
overall by going 'modern' than claims might suggest...

I too have a back-boiler Glowworm of what must be similar vintage. Apart
from making kettling noises, and despite not having been serviced for
several
years, it seems to work just fine (touch wood). I was told last time
that
they're so simple they don't actually need much in the way of
maintenance, but
I feel I've taken that a little too literally :-)

My house also is well-insulated (windows, walls, roof) and I do wonder
just
how much better more modern setups really are. I've been tempted to go
for
this 400 quid scrappage thing but I'm inclined to think "if it ain't
broke
don't fix it" which is more than can be said for most modern boilers
which
seem to last only a few years.


My boiler was fitted in '92, a Wickes 50,(nothing fancy that I cannot sort
out myself) I too have been looking at the scrappage scheme.
Apart from a thermocouple on average every 3 years (about a fiver)and a
gas valve coil 2 years ago it has kept my house warm enough,the scrappage
site shows it as 65% efficient.
If I was to replace it with an "A"rated boiler how long would it take to
recuperate my costs of spending 2k+ (would do it myself as I did the last
one but the regs dictate otherwise, although I have no intention of moving
and when I am dead I don't think I will gave a toss) compared with the
existing which is still working fine.
I see this scheme as a government boost to the plumbing trade so they can
get VAT income to the detriment of the householder.
As a stealth tax I have to give them 10 out of 10 for their deviousness.
Come the election I know who I will not be voting for!

--
Corporal Jones
"I don't like it up me"

What regs say you can't fit your own boiler? The regulations say that you
must be competant - I also fitted my own Potterton Netaheat in 1989 and I've
only had to change one PCB (£55 exchange

You were ripped off then ...

and the cowl (can't think of the
precise description) over the flame at under £2. I intend to keep it as
long as possible. I'm sure that any CO2 gain will be lost in the
manufacturing of the any replacement therefore the longer it's delayed the
better my contribution - same reason that I still run a 10 year old car.


You are OK as long as your gas valve doesn't do - they are now obsolete

--
geoff