The majority of driving have seen recently i would suggest;

1. Get the revs to at least half throttle, mybe more, say 3500-3750 in a
diesel and 5-5500+ in a petrol

2. Depress clutch, engage 1st gear, let clutch out and increase revs as the
clutch bites.

3. Once you have the wheels in motion, press the accelerator firmly into the
floor carpet and keep it there. The rev limiter serves to increase traction.

4. Start turning the steering from side to side whilst displaying an
expression similar to what you might have were you to catch a whiff of a
fart in a busy elevator.

5. Start repeatedly saying "come on" whilst blipping the throttle on and
off.

6. Phone the AA.

7. Phone the RAC when you realise yiou arent an AA member.

8. Phone ASDA and ask if they can deliver your shopping as you cant get out
to them with your car.

Other hints and tips are to make sure you are dressed for a pleasant June
day, try to shy away from sturdy or warm footwear, Ugg boots or a pair of
those nice gay looking baseball boots that seem to be "all the rage" these
days will stand you in much better stead. In a similar vein your zip up
hoody and T-shirt will provide better cold insulation than a heavy
wind/waterproof coat. Dont worry about a hat or scarf, they'll mess your
hair up.

Also make sure you have lost the screw in towing eye for your vehicle of
choice, and it is imperative, that when someone stops to help you/tow you
out, be sure to do nothing to help them whilst asking them if they are going
to be long as you want to be home for the weakest link....

Tim..

On 07/01/2010 23:28, Tim.. wrote:


The majority of driving have seen recently i would suggest;

1. Get the revs to at least half throttle, mybe more, say 3500-3750 in a
diesel and 5-5500+ in a petrol


You forgot step 0) Clamp mobile phone to ear with either hand before
starting off.

--
Rod

Tim.. wrote:
The majority of driving have seen recently i would suggest;

1. Get the revs to at least half throttle, mybe more, say 3500-3750
in a diesel and 5-5500+ in a petrol

2. Depress clutch, engage 1st gear, let clutch out and increase revs
as the clutch bites.

3. Once you have the wheels in motion, press the accelerator firmly
into the floor carpet and keep it there. The rev limiter serves to
increase traction.
4. Start turning the steering from side to side whilst displaying an
expression similar to what you might have were you to catch a whiff
of a fart in a busy elevator.

5. Start repeatedly saying "come on" whilst blipping the throttle on
and off.

6. Phone the AA.

7. Phone the RAC when you realise yiou arent an AA member.

8. Phone ASDA and ask if they can deliver your shopping as you cant
get out to them with your car.

Other hints and tips are to make sure you are dressed for a pleasant
June day, try to shy away from sturdy or warm footwear, Ugg boots or
a pair of those nice gay looking baseball boots that seem to be "all
the rage" these days will stand you in much better stead. In a
similar vein your zip up hoody and T-shirt will provide better cold
insulation than a heavy wind/waterproof coat. Dont worry about a hat
or scarf, they'll mess your hair up.

Also make sure you have lost the screw in towing eye for your vehicle
of choice, and it is imperative, that when someone stops to help
you/tow you out, be sure to do nothing to help them whilst asking
them if they are going to be long as you want to be home for the
weakest link....
Tim..

Do I detect a hint of sarcasm here Tim?

Son visited today and related a story about a 4x4 passing him at about 70
MPH on a snow laden dual carriageway and causing son some grief - son had
the last laugh about two miles down the road, when he passed the 4x4 sitting
very nicely halfway up the embankment of the carriageway with its nose
seriously embedded in a rather large tree!

ROTFL when I heard this, and it served the ******* right, as most 4x4
drivers don't have a clue of how to drive the things in this weather - or
any other time for that matter!

Should upset a few lurking here, but what the hell..


Unbeliever

"Unbeliever" wrote in message
...
Tim.. wrote:
The majority of driving have seen recently i would suggest;

1. Get the revs to at least half throttle, mybe more, say 3500-3750
in a diesel and 5-5500+ in a petrol

2. Depress clutch, engage 1st gear, let clutch out and increase revs
as the clutch bites.

3. Once you have the wheels in motion, press the accelerator firmly
into the floor carpet and keep it there. The rev limiter serves to
increase traction.
4. Start turning the steering from side to side whilst displaying an
expression similar to what you might have were you to catch a whiff
of a fart in a busy elevator.

5. Start repeatedly saying "come on" whilst blipping the throttle on
and off.

6. Phone the AA.

7. Phone the RAC when you realise yiou arent an AA member.

8. Phone ASDA and ask if they can deliver your shopping as you cant
get out to them with your car.

Other hints and tips are to make sure you are dressed for a pleasant
June day, try to shy away from sturdy or warm footwear, Ugg boots or
a pair of those nice gay looking baseball boots that seem to be "all
the rage" these days will stand you in much better stead. In a
similar vein your zip up hoody and T-shirt will provide better cold
insulation than a heavy wind/waterproof coat. Dont worry about a hat
or scarf, they'll mess your hair up.

Also make sure you have lost the screw in towing eye for your vehicle
of choice, and it is imperative, that when someone stops to help
you/tow you out, be sure to do nothing to help them whilst asking
them if they are going to be long as you want to be home for the
weakest link....
Tim..

Do I detect a hint of sarcasm here Tim?

Son visited today and related a story about a 4x4 passing him at about 70
MPH on a snow laden dual carriageway and causing son some grief - son had
the last laugh about two miles down the road, when he passed the 4x4
sitting very nicely halfway up the embankment of the carriageway with its
nose seriously embedded in a rather large tree!

ROTFL when I heard this, and it served the ******* right, as most 4x4
drivers don't have a clue of how to drive the things in this weather - or
any other time for that matter!

Should upset a few lurking here, but what the hell..

Just before the snow, I followed a disco actually swerving to avoid
potholes.

On Fri, 8 Jan 2010 00:23:24 -0000, "Unbeliever" wrote:



ROTFL when I heard this, and it served the ******* right, as most 4x4
drivers don't have a clue of how to drive the things in this weather - or
any other time for that matter!

Should upset a few lurking here, but what the hell..


Unbeliever


Whilst that's undoubtedly sometimes the case, it's rather ironic given all the
criticism, that as soon as the snow becomes really bad, some authorities are
appealing for 4X4 owners to come forward to assist vulnerable people, becasue
that haven't got the resources ! And no, I don't own one.

Andy C

On Fri, 8 Jan 2010 00:23:24 -0000, Unbeliever wrote:

ROTFL when I heard this, and it served the ******* right, as most 4x4
drivers don't have a clue of how to drive the things in this weather -
or any other time for that matter!

Should upset a few lurking here, but what the hell..

Nope, there are always prats about and when one gets their come
uppance like that, tough ****. Of course being a prat it won't be
their fault, oh no, it will be the councils for not clearing the road
properly.

When some prat comes hurtling past me in a dangerous maneuver I do
wish that I'll come across 'em a few miles on crashed. I'd take great
delight in call the Police and telling 'em about the previous driving
of 'em.

--
Cheers
Dave.

Andy Cap :
On Fri, 8 Jan 2010 00:23:24 -0000, "Unbeliever" wrote:

ROTFL when I heard this, and it served the ******* right, as most 4x4
drivers don't have a clue of how to drive the things in this weather - or
any other time for that matter!

Should upset a few lurking here, but what the hell..

Whilst that's undoubtedly sometimes the case, it's rather ironic given all the
criticism, that as soon as the snow becomes really bad, some authorities are
appealing for 4X4 owners to come forward to assist vulnerable people, becasue
that haven't got the resources !

Sorry, I don't get it. It might be considered the ironic if the people
that had been expressing criticism of those vehicles were the
authorities that were calling for help. But AFAICS, they're not.

No-one can object to someone using an off-road vehicle for its intended
purpose, and those driver are most likely to have the skills required to
help out effectively rather than becoming part of the problem.

--
Mike Barnes

On Fri, 8 Jan 2010 08:36:37 +0000, Mike Barnes
wrote:


Sorry, I don't get it. It might be considered ironic if the people
that had been expressing criticism of those vehicles were the
authorities that were calling for help. But AFAICS, they're not.

You don't think the tax structure has been constructed to deter their use then
or that their harshest critic would accept their assistance in the case of an
emergency.

Andy C

On Thu, 7 Jan 2010 23:28:53 -0000, Tim.. wrote:


The majority of driving have seen recently i would suggest;

1. Get the revs to at least half throttle, mybe more, say 3500-3750 in a
diesel and 5-5500+ in a petrol

2. Depress clutch, engage 1st gear, let clutch out and increase revs as the
clutch bites.

3. Once you have the wheels in motion, press the accelerator firmly into the
floor carpet and keep it there. The rev limiter serves to increase traction.

4. Start turning the steering from side to side whilst displaying an
expression similar to what you might have were you to catch a whiff of a
fart in a busy elevator.

5. Start repeatedly saying "come on" whilst blipping the throttle on and
off.

6. Phone the AA.

7. Phone the RAC when you realise yiou arent an AA member.

8. Phone ASDA and ask if they can deliver your shopping as you cant get out
to them with your car.

Other hints and tips are to make sure you are dressed for a pleasant June
day, try to shy away from sturdy or warm footwear, Ugg boots or a pair of
those nice gay looking baseball boots that seem to be "all the rage" these
days will stand you in much better stead. In a similar vein your zip up
hoody and T-shirt will provide better cold insulation than a heavy
wind/waterproof coat. Dont worry about a hat or scarf, they'll mess your
hair up.

Also make sure you have lost the screw in towing eye for your vehicle of
choice, and it is imperative, that when someone stops to help you/tow you
out, be sure to do nothing to help them whilst asking them if they are going
to be long as you want to be home for the weakest link....

And (if you want to ensure you _are_ the weakest link) when you do abandon
your vehicle. Make sure you don't leave a contact phone number anywhere that
it might be visible. And especially try to leave it either in the middle of a
road, across a junction or blocking someone else's driveway, so they can't get
out either.

Extra points for style go to those drivers who clear the 6 inches of snow from
their windscreens, but leave the whole heap on top of the roof. Thus ensuring
that the first time they apply the brakes, the whole mess will slide down in
front and completely block their view of whatever it was they were braking to
avoid.

"Andy Cap" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 8 Jan 2010 00:23:24 -0000, "Unbeliever"
wrote:



ROTFL when I heard this, and it served the ******* right, as most 4x4
drivers don't have a clue of how to drive the things in this weather - or
any other time for that matter!

Should upset a few lurking here, but what the hell..


Unbeliever


Whilst that's undoubtedly sometimes the case, it's rather ironic given all
the
criticism, that as soon as the snow becomes really bad, some authorities
are
appealing for 4X4 owners to come forward to assist vulnerable people,
becasue
that haven't got the resources ! And no, I don't own one.


Yes and by march the government will no doubt be once more telling us all we
need micro cars that emit 1g/co2 and all 4x4's should be banned.

Tim.

Mike Barnes wrote:
Andy Cap :
On Fri, 8 Jan 2010 00:23:24 -0000, "Unbeliever" wrote:

ROTFL when I heard this, and it served the ******* right, as most 4x4
drivers don't have a clue of how to drive the things in this weather - or
any other time for that matter!

Should upset a few lurking here, but what the hell..
Whilst that's undoubtedly sometimes the case, it's rather ironic given all the
criticism, that as soon as the snow becomes really bad, some authorities are
appealing for 4X4 owners to come forward to assist vulnerable people, becasue
that haven't got the resources !

Sorry, I don't get it. It might be considered the ironic if the people
that had been expressing criticism of those vehicles were the
authorities that were calling for help. But AFAICS, they're not.

No-one can object to someone using an off-road vehicle for its intended
purpose, and those driver are most likely to have the skills required to
help out effectively rather than becoming part of the problem.

A 4x4 is not necessarily an off road vehicle. Its a vehicle that has 4
driven wheels. Could be a subaru legacy estate.

All it means is it has superior traction.

I mean, why isn't the guvmint taxing cars which have brakes on all 4 wheels?

ABS should be taxable too.

And traction control.

Since they are taxing two extra differentials.

pete wrote:
On Thu, 7 Jan 2010 23:28:53 -0000, Tim.. wrote:

The majority of driving have seen recently i would suggest;

1. Get the revs to at least half throttle, mybe more, say 3500-3750 in a
diesel and 5-5500+ in a petrol

2. Depress clutch, engage 1st gear, let clutch out and increase revs as the
clutch bites.

3. Once you have the wheels in motion, press the accelerator firmly into the
floor carpet and keep it there. The rev limiter serves to increase traction.

4. Start turning the steering from side to side whilst displaying an
expression similar to what you might have were you to catch a whiff of a
fart in a busy elevator.

5. Start repeatedly saying "come on" whilst blipping the throttle on and
off.

6. Phone the AA.

7. Phone the RAC when you realise yiou arent an AA member.

8. Phone ASDA and ask if they can deliver your shopping as you cant get out
to them with your car.

Other hints and tips are to make sure you are dressed for a pleasant June
day, try to shy away from sturdy or warm footwear, Ugg boots or a pair of
those nice gay looking baseball boots that seem to be "all the rage" these
days will stand you in much better stead. In a similar vein your zip up
hoody and T-shirt will provide better cold insulation than a heavy
wind/waterproof coat. Dont worry about a hat or scarf, they'll mess your
hair up.

Also make sure you have lost the screw in towing eye for your vehicle of
choice, and it is imperative, that when someone stops to help you/tow you
out, be sure to do nothing to help them whilst asking them if they are going
to be long as you want to be home for the weakest link....

And (if you want to ensure you _are_ the weakest link) when you do abandon
your vehicle. Make sure you don't leave a contact phone number anywhere that
it might be visible. And especially try to leave it either in the middle of a
road, across a junction or blocking someone else's driveway, so they can't get
out either.

Extra points for style go to those drivers who clear the 6 inches of snow from
their windscreens, but leave the whole heap on top of the roof. Thus ensuring
that the first time they apply the brakes, the whole mess will slide down in
front and completely block their view of whatever it was they were braking to
avoid.
well thats their fault for not driving fast enough to blow it into the
face of the guy tailgating them.

The Natural Philosopher gurgled happily, sounding
much like they were saying:

Since they are taxing two extra differentials.

Which, of course, they aren't.

Vehicle taxation (for post 2001 vehicles) in the UK is based on one thing
alone - CO2 emissions.

Those CO2 emissions are not unrelated to fuel economy.

It is an undeniable fact that the extra mechanical drag of an AWD
drivetrain increases fuel usage and CO2 emissions. It is equally
undeniable that such vehicles tend to be heavier, and that that, together
with the extra aerodynamic drag of a tall vehicle increases fuel usage
and CO2 emissions, as does the extra rolling resistance of the kind of
tyre typically fitted to 4x4s.

Over the course of a year's typical use, that extra fuel bill will almost
certainly massively outweigh the difference in VED.

On 8 Jan, 09:24, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
pete wrote:
On Thu, 7 Jan 2010 23:28:53 -0000, Tim.. wrote:

The majority of driving have seen recently i would suggest;

1. Get the revs to at least half throttle, mybe more, say 3500-3750 in a
diesel and 5-5500+ in a petrol

2. Depress clutch, engage 1st gear, let clutch out and increase revs as the
clutch bites.

3. Once you have the wheels in motion, press the accelerator firmly into the
floor carpet and keep it there. The rev limiter serves to increase traction.

4. Start turning the steering from side to side whilst displaying an
expression similar to what you might have were you to catch a whiff of a
fart in a busy elevator.

5. Start repeatedly saying "come on" whilst blipping the throttle on and
off.

6. Phone the AA.

7. Phone the RAC when you realise yiou arent an AA member.

8. Phone ASDA and ask if they can deliver your shopping as you cant get out
to them with your car.

Other hints and tips are to make sure you are dressed for a pleasant June
day, try to shy away from sturdy or warm footwear, Ugg boots or a pair of
those nice gay looking baseball boots that seem to be "all the rage" these
days will stand you in much better stead. In a similar vein your zip up
hoody and T-shirt will provide better cold insulation than a heavy
wind/waterproof coat. Dont worry about a hat or scarf, they'll mess your
hair up.

Also make sure you have lost the screw in towing eye for your vehicle of
choice, and it is imperative, that when someone stops to help you/tow you
out, be sure to do nothing to help them whilst asking them if they are going
to be long as you want to be home for the weakest link....

And (if you want to ensure you _are_ the weakest link) when you do abandon
your vehicle. Make sure you don't leave a contact phone number anywhere that
it might be visible. And especially try to leave it either in the middle of a
road, across a junction or blocking someone else's driveway, so they can't get
out either.

Extra points for style go to those drivers who clear the 6 inches of snow from
their windscreens, but leave the whole heap on top of the roof. Thus ensuring
that the first time they apply the brakes, the whole mess will slide down in
front and completely block their view of whatever it was they were braking to
avoid.

well thats their fault for not driving fast enough to blow it into the
face of the guy tailgating them.

I had to take the bus up to Aviemore from Edinburgh on the 31st and
was impressed by the noticeably long gap the driver left between him
and the vehicle in front; his judgement of that distance was excellent
and despite speed changes he seemed to be keeping the spacing pretty
constant.

Rob

On 8 Jan, 09:51, robgraham wrote:
On 8 Jan, 09:24, The Natural Philosopher wrote:



pete wrote:
On Thu, 7 Jan 2010 23:28:53 -0000, Tim.. wrote:

The majority of driving have seen recently i would suggest;

1. Get the revs to at least half throttle, mybe more, say 3500-3750 in a
diesel and 5-5500+ in a petrol

2. Depress clutch, engage 1st gear, let clutch out and increase revs as the
clutch bites.

3. Once you have the wheels in motion, press the accelerator firmly into the
floor carpet and keep it there. The rev limiter serves to increase traction.

4. Start turning the steering from side to side whilst displaying an
expression similar to what you might have were you to catch a whiff of a
fart in a busy elevator.

5. Start repeatedly saying "come on" whilst blipping the throttle on and
off.

6. Phone the AA.

7. Phone the RAC when you realise yiou arent an AA member.

8. Phone ASDA and ask if they can deliver your shopping as you cant get out
to them with your car.

Other hints and tips are to make sure you are dressed for a pleasant June
day, try to shy away from sturdy or warm footwear, Ugg boots or a pair of
those nice gay looking baseball boots that seem to be "all the rage" these
days will stand you in much better stead. In a similar vein your zip up
hoody and T-shirt will provide better cold insulation than a heavy
wind/waterproof coat. Dont worry about a hat or scarf, they'll mess your
hair up.

Also make sure you have lost the screw in towing eye for your vehicle of
choice, and it is imperative, that when someone stops to help you/tow you
out, be sure to do nothing to help them whilst asking them if they are going
to be long as you want to be home for the weakest link....

And (if you want to ensure you _are_ the weakest link) when you do abandon
your vehicle. Make sure you don't leave a contact phone number anywhere that
it might be visible. And especially try to leave it either in the middle of a
road, across a junction or blocking someone else's driveway, so they can't get
out either.

Extra points for style go to those drivers who clear the 6 inches of snow from
their windscreens, but leave the whole heap on top of the roof. Thus ensuring
that the first time they apply the brakes, the whole mess will slide down in
front and completely block their view of whatever it was they were braking to
avoid.

well thats their fault for not driving fast enough to blow it into the
face of the guy tailgating them.

I had to take the bus up to Aviemore from Edinburgh on the 31st and
was impressed by the noticeably long gap the driver left between him
and the vehicle in front; his judgement of that distance was excellent
and despite speed changes he seemed to be keeping the spacing pretty
constant.

Rob

Trouble is, half the time if you leave a reasonable gap for safety,
some prat always tries to squeeze in front you !
Simon.

sm_jamieson
wibbled on Friday 08 January 2010 10:09



Trouble is, half the time if you leave a reasonable gap for safety,
some prat always tries to squeeze in front you !
Simon.

Some people are unbelievable. Driving back from Maidstone before Xmas in the
last flurry, had some fool in a white van tailgating me all the way down the
A road to Pembury.

I knew I was at my limit (about 25-30mph) because I test the brakes and feel
the road surface periodically and it was not good.

Damn sure his van wasn't any better equipped for the snow than my car, he
was just a bigger dickhead.

--
Tim Watts

You know you need more insulation when the snow blanket on the roof makes
the house 3 degrees warmer...

On Fri, 08 Jan 2010 08:36:37 +0000, Mike Barnes wrote:

No-one can object to someone using an off-road vehicle for its intended
purpose, and those driver are most likely to have the skills required to
help out effectively rather than becoming part of the problem.

But a lot of them clearly *don't* have the skills - see earlier comment.

--
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
http://www.mirrorservice.org

On 8 Jan 2010 09:40:25 GMT, Adrian wrote:

The Natural Philosopher gurgled happily, sounding
much like they were saying:

Since they are taxing two extra differentials.

Which, of course, they aren't.

Vehicle taxation (for post 2001 vehicles) in the UK is based on one thing
alone - CO2 emissions.

Those CO2 emissions are not unrelated to fuel economy.

It is an undeniable fact that the extra mechanical drag of an AWD
drivetrain increases fuel usage and CO2 emissions. It is equally
undeniable that such vehicles tend to be heavier, and that that, together
with the extra aerodynamic drag of a tall vehicle increases fuel usage
and CO2 emissions, as does the extra rolling resistance of the kind of
tyre typically fitted to 4x4s.

Over the course of a year's typical use, that extra fuel bill will almost
certainly massively outweigh the difference in VED.

Which is a very good argument for abolishing VED and adding it to fuel duty
(in a revenue neutral manner). Then you're taxing a combination of fuel
efficiency and mileage. We can still keep the tax disc system for it's
other purposes, but just issue them free of charge. Or make all vehicles of
any age have annual MOTs and add document checks to the MOT. The pensioner
who relies on their car for mobility, but doesn't do many miles would pay
next to nothing, while those of us who commute long distances would pay
much more.I'd end up paying more under this system, but I think it's
undoubtedly fairer.

SteveW

On 8 Jan 2010 09:40:25 GMT, Adrian wrote:

The Natural Philosopher gurgled happily, sounding
much like they were saying:

Since they are taxing two extra differentials.

Which, of course, they aren't.

Vehicle taxation (for post 2001 vehicles) in the UK is based on one thing
alone - CO2 emissions.

Those CO2 emissions are not unrelated to fuel economy.

It is an undeniable fact that the extra mechanical drag of an AWD
drivetrain increases fuel usage and CO2 emissions. It is equally
undeniable that such vehicles tend to be heavier, and that that, together
with the extra aerodynamic drag of a tall vehicle increases fuel usage
and CO2 emissions, as does the extra rolling resistance of the kind of
tyre typically fitted to 4x4s.

Over the course of a year's typical use, that extra fuel bill will almost
certainly massively outweigh the difference in VED.

It depends on how many miles is driven each year. Which produces more
C02: A 4x4 driven 1000 miles a year or a smart car driven 100,000
miles in the same period? Answers on a postcard to Captain Darling &
Gordan Bennett..

My car produces a lot of C02 because it is large. I need a large car
because I regularly carry 5 people. It's ridiculous to tax me extra
for this. I should be rewarded ;-) WTF does the goverment want me to
do? Buy two small cars and drive them both!
--
(\__/) M.
(='.'=) Due to the amount of spam posted via googlegroups and
(")_(") their inaction to the problem. I am blocking most articles
posted from there. If you wish your postings to be seen by
everyone you will need use a different method of posting.
[Reply-to address valid until it is spammed.]

Tim W wrote:
Some people are unbelievable. Driving back from Maidstone before Xmas
in the last flurry, had some fool in a white van tailgating me all
the way down the A road to Pembury.

I knew I was at my limit (about 25-30mph) because I test the brakes
and feel the road surface periodically and it was not good.

Damn sure his van wasn't any better equipped for the snow than my
car, he was just a bigger dickhead.

Playing devil's advocate here for a mo, you really can't know how well his
van was gripping the road. Different tyre sections, tread patterns, rubber
compounds, vehicle weights etc. all have a big influence on grip in slippery
conditions and he may have been driving well within his grip "envelope" so
to speak.

This doesn't excuse tailgating of course.

Tim

Adrian wrote:
The Natural Philosopher gurgled happily, sounding
much like they were saying:

Since they are taxing two extra differentials.

Which, of course, they aren't.

Vehicle taxation (for post 2001 vehicles) in the UK is based on one thing
alone - CO2 emissions.


Why.

A car parked at the side of the road emits no CO2, yet it is taxed.

Those CO2 emissions are not unrelated to fuel economy.

No, they are related FAR more to actual usage.

Its a straight 'class tax' - if they want to tax CO2 they would simply
tax the fuel. More.

Labers core vote and the marginals they need to win are overwhelmingly
suburban. So the rest of the country gets suburban suitable rules
imposed to woo the floaters, irrespective of the fact that they are
probably not even a majority of the population.



It is an undeniable fact that the extra mechanical drag of an AWD
drivetrain increases fuel usage and CO2 emissions. It is equally
undeniable that such vehicles tend to be heavier, and that that, together
with the extra aerodynamic drag of a tall vehicle increases fuel usage
and CO2 emissions, as does the extra rolling resistance of the kind of
tyre typically fitted to 4x4s.

no, the last is wrong. There is less rolling resistance on a tall narrow
tyre. Its the low profiles and broad tread that are the greater rolling
resistance: they deflect more to keep more rubber on the road, and at
speed this means heat into the sidewalls.

Or bicycles would all be on low profiles slicks of husge width wouldnt they?




Over the course of a year's typical use, that extra fuel bill will almost
certainly massively outweigh the difference in VED.


No, it does not.

If you are a low a mileage driver.

The tax on the Freelander equates to 1200 miles of diesel - when we try
to do less than 5000, that is a 30% tax on the fuel. give or take.
We run at about £750 fuel cost a year. Tax is £215, MOT is £60 odd, and
insurance is about another £200.

Its a totally unfair tax, that hits low mileage drivers with older cars
- typically the retired - massively- compared with people in work, who
can afford to change cars regularly and whose annual mileage is
subsidised by the OAPs.

The more carbon friendly you are, i.e. the less you use, the more this
tax actually hits you.

Your argument "that extra fuel bill will almost certainly massively
outweigh the difference in VED" says that in effect the tax is not doing
what it is allegedly intended to. I.e. that having paid the tax, you
might as well drive a ****load of miles to make it worth it.

Its a tax that in effect, has the opposite effect.

On 8 Jan, 09:20, "Tim.." wrote:
"Andy Cap" wrote in message

...





On Fri, 8 Jan 2010 00:23:24 -0000, "Unbeliever"
wrote:

ROTFL when I heard this, and it served the ******* right, as most 4x4
drivers don't have a clue of how to drive the things in this weather - or
any other time for that matter!

Should upset a few lurking here, but what the hell.. *

Unbeliever

Whilst that's undoubtedly sometimes the case, it's rather ironic given all
the
criticism, that as soon as the snow becomes really bad, some authorities
are
appealing for 4X4 owners to come forward to assist vulnerable people,
becasue
that haven't got the resources ! *And no, I don't own one.

Yes and by march the government will no doubt be once more telling us all we
need micro cars that emit 1g/co2 and all 4x4's should be banned.

Tim.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

When you have a gang of total incompetents running the country innto
bankruptcy nothing should surprise you!
The anti 4 x 4 brigade are misguided but voluble and as we all know
the squeaking hinge gets the most oil.
Road fund licencing should be reduced to a standard rate of £20-00 per
year to cover admin and exist simply to enable ownership and
roadworthyness to be registered. All highway running costs should be
recovered from fuel duty alone. High consumption cars will then pay
more, low consumption cars less.
Road haulage may need alternative arrangements or foreign vehicles
subject to a levy at the ferry terminal or channel tunnel to achieve a
level playing field.
A fundamental change of mindset is required to stop the government
treating vehicles as yet another cash cow.

Tim W wrote on Jan 8, 2010:

sm_jamieson
wibbled on Friday 08 January 2010 10:09



Trouble is, half the time if you leave a reasonable gap for safety,
some prat always tries to squeeze in front you !
Simon.

Some people are unbelievable. Driving back from Maidstone before Xmas in the
last flurry, had some fool in a white van tailgating me all the way down the
A road to Pembury.

I knew I was at my limit (about 25-30mph) because I test the brakes and feel
the road surface periodically and it was not good.

Damn sure his van wasn't any better equipped for the snow than my car, he
was just a bigger dickhead.

White-Van Man is actually a sub-species of the human race. He has very little
cognitive intelligence, but is born with a primeval instinct to go as fast as
possible until something physically impedes his progress like the car in
front. He then drives as close to it as possible until it goes away.

--
Mike Lane
UK North Yorkshire
email: mike_lane at mac dot com

Tim
wibbled on Friday 08 January 2010 10:57

Tim W wrote:
Some people are unbelievable. Driving back from Maidstone before Xmas
in the last flurry, had some fool in a white van tailgating me all
the way down the A road to Pembury.

I knew I was at my limit (about 25-30mph) because I test the brakes
and feel the road surface periodically and it was not good.

Damn sure his van wasn't any better equipped for the snow than my
car, he was just a bigger dickhead.

Playing devil's advocate here for a mo, you really can't know how well his
van was gripping the road. Different tyre sections, tread patterns,
rubber compounds, vehicle weights etc. all have a big influence on grip in
slippery conditions and he may have been driving well within his grip
"envelope" so to speak.

This doesn't excuse tailgating of course.

Tim

This is true - but given the cars I've seen on their side (really) next to
the A21 and the number of other smashes, I tend to assume dickhead by
default

--
Tim Watts

You know you need more insulation when the snow blanket on the roof makes
the house 3 degrees warmer...

Mark gurgled happily, sounding much
like they were saying:

Since they are taxing two extra differentials.

Which, of course, they aren't.

Vehicle taxation (for post 2001 vehicles) in the UK is based on one
thing alone - CO2 emissions.

Those CO2 emissions are not unrelated to fuel economy.

It is an undeniable fact that the extra mechanical drag of an AWD
drivetrain increases fuel usage and CO2 emissions. It is equally
undeniable that such vehicles tend to be heavier, and that that,
together with the extra aerodynamic drag of a tall vehicle increases
fuel usage and CO2 emissions, as does the extra rolling resistance of
the kind of tyre typically fitted to 4x4s.

Over the course of a year's typical use, that extra fuel bill will
almost certainly massively outweigh the difference in VED.

It depends on how many miles is driven each year. Which produces more
C02: A 4x4 driven 1000 miles a year or a smart car driven 100,000 miles
in the same period? Answers on a postcard to Captain Darling & Gordan
Bennett..

Yes, dear. That's why there's a mileage-related component to the
contribution your car use makes to the exchequer.

But, of course, there isn't anybody in this country who would be making a
straight choice between using a 4x4 for 1,000 miles/year or a Smart for
100k miles.

My car produces a lot of C02 because it is large. I need a large car
because I regularly carry 5 people. It's ridiculous to tax me extra
for this. I should be rewarded ;-)

For contributing to over-population? Why?

WTF does the goverment want me to do?

Well, I s'pose it's a bit late to introduce you to the concept of
contraception.

Still, the other costs associated with having a large family will
outweigh the small extra on VED.

Buy two small cars and drive them both!

Hey-ho. There's spacious five-seater people carriers on the market which
fall into the £35 VED band, of course.

Steve Walker wrote:
On 8 Jan 2010 09:40:25 GMT, Adrian wrote:

The Natural Philosopher gurgled happily, sounding
much like they were saying:

Since they are taxing two extra differentials.
Which, of course, they aren't.

Vehicle taxation (for post 2001 vehicles) in the UK is based on one thing
alone - CO2 emissions.

Those CO2 emissions are not unrelated to fuel economy.

It is an undeniable fact that the extra mechanical drag of an AWD
drivetrain increases fuel usage and CO2 emissions. It is equally
undeniable that such vehicles tend to be heavier, and that that, together
with the extra aerodynamic drag of a tall vehicle increases fuel usage
and CO2 emissions, as does the extra rolling resistance of the kind of
tyre typically fitted to 4x4s.

Over the course of a year's typical use, that extra fuel bill will almost
certainly massively outweigh the difference in VED.

Which is a very good argument for abolishing VED and adding it to fuel duty
(in a revenue neutral manner). Then you're taxing a combination of fuel
efficiency and mileage. We can still keep the tax disc system for it's
other purposes, but just issue them free of charge. Or make all vehicles of
any age have annual MOTs and add document checks to the MOT. The pensioner
who relies on their car for mobility, but doesn't do many miles would pay
next to nothing, while those of us who commute long distances would pay
much more.I'd end up paying more under this system, but I think it's
undoubtedly fairer.


Tax the burn, not the earn, and tax the use, not the ownership.

Tax fuel, not cars, to reduce carbon: Tax tyres not residents, for road
repairs.

Tax spending, not earning. To encourage onshore labour and local savings.

But thats nit Nu Labers game.

Tax toffs, and employ sabre toothed tiger chasers.

Tax the single, and give it all to unmarried mums who have never worked

Tax anyone who contributes to productivity, and give it all to people
who never have and probably never will

And spend the rest on educating people to be mindless droids (all of
course completely as good as anyone) who cant think for themselves, are
utterly dependent on a nanny state to even clear snow from their paths,
and let them rot in sink estates.

Brave New World!
SteveW

The Natural Philosopher gurgled happily, sounding
much like they were saying:

It is an undeniable fact that the extra mechanical drag of an AWD
drivetrain increases fuel usage and CO2 emissions. It is equally
undeniable that such vehicles tend to be heavier, and that that,
together with the extra aerodynamic drag of a tall vehicle increases
fuel usage and CO2 emissions, as does the extra rolling resistance of
the kind of tyre typically fitted to 4x4s.

no, the last is wrong. There is less rolling resistance on a tall narrow
tyre. Its the low profiles and broad tread that are the greater rolling
resistance: they deflect more to keep more rubber on the road, and at
speed this means heat into the sidewalls.

It's a variety of things, including tread width (4x4 tyres are typically
wider than "normal car", and rubber compound (4x4 tyres are typically mud
& snow rated).

Tim W wrote:
sm_jamieson
wibbled on Friday 08 January 2010 10:09


Trouble is, half the time if you leave a reasonable gap for safety,
some prat always tries to squeeze in front you !
Simon.

Some people are unbelievable. Driving back from Maidstone before Xmas in the
last flurry, had some fool in a white van tailgating me all the way down the
A road to Pembury.

I knew I was at my limit (about 25-30mph) because I test the brakes and feel
the road surface periodically and it was not good.

Damn sure his van wasn't any better equipped for the snow than my car, he
was just a bigger dickhead.

well fortunately, his grip would have been almost as bad as yours.


The key thing is, driving in these conditions takes a modicum of skill.
That is not something multiple choice questions give you.

The emphasis today is on the legalities of driving. Being able to handle
a vehicle does not really feature in the test.

I would recommend that anyine who wishes to acquire it, ho to the
nearest go kart center that has an outdoor track, on a day when its
****ing with rain, and spend an hour learning.

Ok slicks on water are not quite like ordinary tyres on ice, but its
very close. And of course a sold rear axle is a lot better than a diff
for traction..but all in all, you will learn.

Bob Eager wrote:
On Fri, 08 Jan 2010 08:36:37 +0000, Mike Barnes wrote:

No-one can object to someone using an off-road vehicle for its intended
purpose, and those driver are most likely to have the skills required to
help out effectively rather than becoming part of the problem.

But a lot of them clearly *don't* have the skills - see earlier comment.

modern cars are designed so that no one needs skill by and large, and
skill in car control is never something that has been part of getting a
license.

Only the IAM really teach that.

The rest of us acquired it on wet icy and leaf strewn roads, as a matter
of interest, on cars without traction control, ABS or indeed in may case
decent brakes at all. In the days when the RAC was too expensive to
join, and if you didnt carry a spade, some sacking and a set of tools
with you, you probably wouldn't make it home.

Hence the advice today 'stay at home'

yes, please do, so those of us that CAN drive on this white stuff, dont
get stuck behind a 3 mile tailback doing 12mph, which is all craphead at
the front thinks is safe (and for him, its probably true) and are forced
to overtake 4-5 cars at a time to get anywhere at all before tomorrow.

On 08/01/2010 11:13 cynic wrote:

foreign vehicles
subject to a levy at the ferry terminal or channel tunnel to achieve a
level playing field.

Make it illegal for them to leave the country with anything less than a
full tank of fuel.

--
F

The Natural Philosopher
wibbled on Friday 08 January 2010 11:24


well fortunately, his grip would have been almost as bad as yours.


The key thing is, driving in these conditions takes a modicum of skill.
That is not something multiple choice questions give you.

The emphasis today is on the legalities of driving. Being able to handle
a vehicle does not really feature in the test.

I would recommend that anyine who wishes to acquire it, ho to the
nearest go kart center that has an outdoor track, on a day when its
****ing with rain, and spend an hour learning.

Done that - most entertaining

It was a mate's birthday party and he was a motorhead, so someone suggested
we take him carting (we're not rich enough to hire Brands Hatch for the
day!).

It was tiddling it down so the carts were going everywhere - 360 spins, the
lot - marvellous...

Ok slicks on water are not quite like ordinary tyres on ice, but its
very close. And of course a sold rear axle is a lot better than a diff
for traction..but all in all, you will learn.

I'm not bad with recovery during a slide - had lots of practise. It's
getting going that's painful. My last choice of front tyre were high water
dispersal ones (Continental SportContact or something like that). Very good
in water and good in the dry with low rolling resistance, but alas useless
for traction in snow (not many cross grooves - mostly all circumferential
grooves).

And they're worn. Next time, I'll look at a compromise tyre with more winter
grip. In the meantime, I'll look out for a cheap set of chains. A pain to
keep putting them on and getting them off, but better than being totally
stuck.

--
Tim Watts

You know you need more insulation when the snow blanket on the roof makes
the house 3 degrees warmer...

Adrian wrote:
The Natural Philosopher gurgled happily, sounding
much like they were saying:

It is an undeniable fact that the extra mechanical drag of an AWD
drivetrain increases fuel usage and CO2 emissions. It is equally
undeniable that such vehicles tend to be heavier, and that that,
together with the extra aerodynamic drag of a tall vehicle increases
fuel usage and CO2 emissions, as does the extra rolling resistance of
the kind of tyre typically fitted to 4x4s.

no, the last is wrong. There is less rolling resistance on a tall narrow
tyre. Its the low profiles and broad tread that are the greater rolling
resistance: they deflect more to keep more rubber on the road, and at
speed this means heat into the sidewalls.

It's a variety of things, including tread width (4x4 tyres are typically
wider than "normal car",

They are not..

and rubber compound (4x4 tyres are typically mud
& snow rated).

which makes for LOWER rolling resistance.

Andy Cap :
On Fri, 8 Jan 2010 08:36:37 +0000, Mike Barnes
wrote:
Sorry, I don't get it. It might be considered ironic if the people
that had been expressing criticism of those vehicles were the
authorities that were calling for help. But AFAICS, they're not.

You don't think the tax structure has been constructed to deter their use then

No, but I'd welcome any information you have in support of that idea.

or that their harshest critic would accept their assistance in the case of an
emergency.

You're talking about hypocrisy, which is a serious matter, but not what
was being referred to in the passage you snipped.

--
Mike Barnes

Tim W wrote:
The Natural Philosopher
wibbled on Friday 08 January 2010 11:24


well fortunately, his grip would have been almost as bad as yours.


The key thing is, driving in these conditions takes a modicum of skill.
That is not something multiple choice questions give you.

The emphasis today is on the legalities of driving. Being able to handle
a vehicle does not really feature in the test.

I would recommend that anyine who wishes to acquire it, ho to the
nearest go kart center that has an outdoor track, on a day when its
****ing with rain, and spend an hour learning.

Done that - most entertaining

It was a mate's birthday party and he was a motorhead, so someone suggested
we take him carting (we're not rich enough to hire Brands Hatch for the
day!).

It was tiddling it down so the carts were going everywhere - 360 spins, the
lot - marvellous...

Ok slicks on water are not quite like ordinary tyres on ice, but its
very close. And of course a sold rear axle is a lot better than a diff
for traction..but all in all, you will learn.

I'm not bad with recovery during a slide - had lots of practise. It's
getting going that's painful. My last choice of front tyre were high water
dispersal ones (Continental SportContact or something like that). Very good
in water and good in the dry with low rolling resistance, but alas useless
for traction in snow (not many cross grooves - mostly all circumferential
grooves).

And they're worn. Next time, I'll look at a compromise tyre with more winter
grip. In the meantime, I'll look out for a cheap set of chains. A pain to
keep putting them on and getting them off, but better than being totally
stuck.

get some narrows smaller dia. rims and M&S tyres of deeper sidewall and
fit them.

My defender had M&S permanently fitted. lasted 50K miles too.definitely
made frim the ink side of the eraser.

Crap at braking, not brilliant at cornering, but would drive over any
surface up to ice, better than anything else if it wasn't tarmac..

For ice, you need chains or studs. Or jsut slow down. You will still be
the fastest thing on the road tho.

The Natural Philosopher gurgled happily, sounding
much like they were saying:

It's a variety of things, including tread width (4x4 tyres are
typically wider than "normal car",

They are not..

You might like to have a little google about that...

and rubber compound (4x4 tyres are typically mud & snow rated).

which makes for LOWER rolling resistance.

So how come my own car is much less economical when I swap over to my
winter tyres? Same size tyre.

Bob Eager :
On Fri, 08 Jan 2010 08:36:37 +0000, Mike Barnes wrote:

No-one can object to someone using an off-road vehicle for its intended
purpose, and those driver are most likely to have the skills required to
help out effectively rather than becoming part of the problem.

But a lot of them clearly *don't* have the skills - see earlier comment.

What "earlier comment"? Note I was referring specifically to drivers who
routinely use their vehicles off the road.

--
Mike Barnes

Adrian wrote:
The Natural Philosopher gurgled happily, sounding
much like they were saying:

It's a variety of things, including tread width (4x4 tyres are
typically wider than "normal car",

They are not..

You might like to have a little google about that...

and rubber compound (4x4 tyres are typically mud & snow rated).

which makes for LOWER rolling resistance.

So how come my own car is much less economical when I swap over to my
winter tyres? Same size tyre.

it shouldnt be same sized tyre. Should be narrower.

But presumably you swap because you are in fact driving on snow and
slush,and very wet roads which makes far more difference to rolling
resistance than the tyre will.

Mike Barnes wrote:
Bob Eager :
On Fri, 08 Jan 2010 08:36:37 +0000, Mike Barnes wrote:

No-one can object to someone using an off-road vehicle for its intended
purpose, and those driver are most likely to have the skills required to
help out effectively rather than becoming part of the problem.
But a lot of them clearly *don't* have the skills - see earlier comment.

What "earlier comment"? Note I was referring specifically to drivers who
routinely use their vehicles off the road.

not sure if chasing dogs down green roads is a great training for doing
30mph on sheet ice..

ice driving is a completely different skill. But geting a 4x4 out of
deep snow is not much different from getting it out of deep mud really.

So that bit is useful.

On 8 Jan 2010 11:20:18 GMT, Adrian wrote:

Nothing of any use.

PLONK.
--
(\__/) M.
(='.'=) Due to the amount of spam posted via googlegroups and
(")_(") their inaction to the problem. I am blocking most articles
posted from there. If you wish your postings to be seen by
everyone you will need use a different method of posting.
[Reply-to address valid until it is spammed.]

The Natural Philosopher gurgled happily, sounding
much like they were saying:

and rubber compound (4x4 tyres are typically mud & snow rated).

which makes for LOWER rolling resistance.

So how come my own car is much less economical when I swap over to my
winter tyres? Same size tyre.

it shouldnt be same sized tyre. Should be narrower.

It's the same size.
The factory spec is for the same size, according to the handbook.

But presumably you swap because you are in fact driving on snow and
slush,and very wet roads which makes far more difference to rolling
resistance than the tyre will.

No, even on dry tarmac. Winter tyres grip a lot better than normal summer
tyres in all road conditions, once the weather gets cold. But part of the
pay-off for that is harsher ride, more road noise - and poorer economy
because of the greater rolling resistance.