Recently had one of those Careline things installed for an elderly
relative so she can get help if she has a fall by pressing a button on
a pendant. One of the options given was to install a key safe outside
the house so that staff can gain access in an emergency.

This seems eminently sensible.

They fit it at the rear of the house and I presume it is fitted in an
inconspicuous place. They are fitted by Age Concern for GBP50 and as
the retail price of the safes they fit
http://www.keysafe.co.uk/
is around GBP40, this seems very good.

Before I go ahead, are there any pitfalls of fitting one? Anything to
watch out for? Are the GE ones OK?

Ta

David

On 18/11/2009 12:59 David wrote:

Anything to
watch out for?

Check to see if your local authority will fit one for less/free.

--
F

On Wed, 18 Nov 2009 04:59:02 -0800 (PST), David
wrote:

Recently had one of those Careline things installed for an elderly
relative so she can get help if she has a fall by pressing a button on
a pendant. One of the options given was to install a key safe outside
the house so that staff can gain access in an emergency.

This seems eminently sensible.

They fit it at the rear of the house and I presume it is fitted in an
inconspicuous place. They are fitted by Age Concern for GBP50 and as
the retail price of the safes they fit
http://www.keysafe.co.uk/
is around GBP40, this seems very good.

Before I go ahead, are there any pitfalls of fitting one? Anything to
watch out for? Are the GE ones OK?


An elderly relative has the GE Slimline KeySafe illustrated in your
link. She has carers calling four times a day and they all use the
KeySafe. There have been no problems, although I feel the layout of
the numbered buttons and the clarity of their numbering could be
improved. It can also be a little fiddly removing and replacing the
key in cold weather.

The carers don't have any problems - they use these things all the
time.

In article ,
David writes:
Recently had one of those Careline things installed for an elderly
relative so she can get help if she has a fall by pressing a button on
a pendant. One of the options given was to install a key safe outside
the house so that staff can gain access in an emergency.

This seems eminently sensible.

They fit it at the rear of the house and I presume it is fitted in an
inconspicuous place. They are fitted by Age Concern for GBP50 and as
the retail price of the safes they fit
http://www.keysafe.co.uk/
is around GBP40, this seems very good.

Before I go ahead, are there any pitfalls of fitting one? Anything to
watch out for? Are the GE ones OK?

I saw someone along the road had one fitted. It was in the front porch,
and fully visible. I didn't look closely, but I guessed it's a combination
lock. (I think the person either moved on or passed away, as the house has
since been sold.)

I did wonder why they didn't simply fit a combination lock on the door
itself.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

I did wonder why they didn't simply fit a combination lock on the door
itself.


Good point

On Nov 18, 1:34*pm, (Andrew Gabriel)
wrote:

I did wonder why they didn't simply fit a combination lock on the door
itself.

Because the poor old b****r would forget it....

David wrote:
Recently had one of those Careline things installed for an elderly
relative so she can get help if she has a fall by pressing a button on
a pendant. One of the options given was to install a key safe outside
the house so that staff can gain access in an emergency.

This seems eminently sensible.

They fit it at the rear of the house and I presume it is fitted in an
inconspicuous place. They are fitted by Age Concern for GBP50 and as
the retail price of the safes they fit
http://www.keysafe.co.uk/
is around GBP40, this seems very good.

Before I go ahead, are there any pitfalls of fitting one? Anything to
watch out for? Are the GE ones OK?

Ta

David
Wonder how well it would resist a battery powered angle grinder?

Save money and use a bump key to gain access to the house and everyone
else's.

David wrote:
On Nov 18, 1:34 pm, (Andrew Gabriel)
wrote:

I did wonder why they didn't simply fit a combination lock on the door
itself.

Because the poor old b****r would forget it....

Absolutely. At one care home I visited, the patients - dementia - were
completely defeated by combination locks the staff would pass through
with ease.

David :
Recently had one of those Careline things installed for an elderly
relative so she can get help if she has a fall by pressing a button on
a pendant. One of the options given was to install a key safe outside
the house so that staff can gain access in an emergency.

This seems eminently sensible.

They fit it at the rear of the house and I presume it is fitted in an
inconspicuous place. They are fitted by Age Concern for GBP50 and as
the retail price of the safes they fit
http://www.keysafe.co.uk/
is around GBP40, this seems very good.

Before I go ahead, are there any pitfalls of fitting one? Anything to
watch out for? Are the GE ones OK?

I had a bad experience with one of those. We'd rented a holiday cottage
and the owners told us the code so that we could get the key when we
arrived. The safe just wouldn't open. My mother used to have one on her
bungalow so I knew how they worked but I couldn't get this one to open
at all. Eventually the owner agreed to make a 200-miles-each-way journey
to get a key to us. Feeling for her, I picked up a first-sized rock from
the garden and hit the box, *hard*. Somewhat to my surprise it opened.
Nothing obviously wrong, but it occurred to me that the mechanism
behind the door was exposed and the keys could have jammed it.
Alternatively the door could have been put on crooked by the previous
tenants I suppose.

So if the mechanism turns out to be exposed, I'd cover it, just in case.

--
Mike Barnes

On Nov 18, 2:10*pm, Rob Horton wrote:
Wonder how well it would resist a battery powered angle grinder?
Probably not very well. A battery powered sabre saw would work just as
well. Or else jemmy off the wall and work on it elsewhere. The best
thing would be to locate it out of view or in a place where its awkard
to get access for an attack.

Looking at it another way why not a oversized one like the big plugtop
they had on the Crystal Maze or a whole row of key safes where you
open the first one to get the combination to the second one, etc.
Back to being sensible, you can buy them for around £20 in Toolstation
or Screwfix.

Dave.

On Wed, 18 Nov 2009 14:10:16 +0000, Rob Horton wrote:

Wonder how well it would resist a battery powered angle grinder?

They are diecast zinc, a well aimed blow with a hammer would have it
of the wall. Or a cold chisel in the hinge or gap have it open.

Having it out of sight means that a scroat can "play" with it without
passers by or neighbours seeing anything.

--
Cheers
Dave.

David wrote:
Recently had one of those Careline things installed for an elderly
relative so she can get help if she has a fall by pressing a button on
a pendant. One of the options given was to install a key safe outside
the house so that staff can gain access in an emergency.

This seems eminently sensible.

They fit it at the rear of the house and I presume it is fitted in an
inconspicuous place. They are fitted by Age Concern for GBP50 and as
the retail price of the safes they fit
http://www.keysafe.co.uk/
is around GBP40, this seems very good.

Before I go ahead, are there any pitfalls of fitting one? Anything to
watch out for? Are the GE ones OK?

In an exactly similar situation a few weeks ago, I fitted the
Toolstation 19 quid one:

http://www.toolstation.com/shop/Safety+Security/Safes+Cabinets/Select+Access+Key+Safe+Standard+Key+Safe/d200/sd3155/p18917

I doubt it would resist an angle grinder, or even a can of WD40, but
neither would the average door or window.

There's an argument for putting it where anyone trying to attack it
might be seen by neighbours or passers-by.


--
Kevin Poole
****Use current date to reply (e.g. )****

On Wed, 18 Nov 2009 13:34:44 +0000 (UTC),
(Andrew Gabriel) wrote:

In article ,
David writes:


Before I go ahead, are there any pitfalls of fitting one? Anything to
watch out for? Are the GE ones OK?

They all share the same problem which is someone forgetting to put the
key back. Key loss isn't uncommon. The combinations are also
commonly written down by users against the address (and not
infrequently lost) so they are not particularly secure.

They can relatively easily be knocked off the wall and taken away to
be sliced up to access the key.

I did wonder why they didn't simply fit a combination lock on the door
itself.

As the combination is known to lots of people it isn't easy to secure
the house when empty. Using the keysafe its simple - if the occupant
goes to hospital or on holiday just removing the key allows the house
to maintain its usual security.

Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Wed, 18 Nov 2009 14:10:16 +0000, Rob Horton wrote:

Wonder how well it would resist a battery powered angle grinder?

They are diecast zinc, a well aimed blow with a hammer would have it
of the wall. Or a cold chisel in the hinge or gap have it open.

Would that count as forced entry as far as an insurance company is
concerned? Or would having a key 'easily' accessible mean that the
insurance company would not pay up in the case of a burglary?

Andrew

On Wed, 18 Nov 2009 14:47:51 +0000, Peter Parry wrote:

They all share the same problem which is someone forgetting to put the
key back. Key loss isn't uncommon. The combinations are also
commonly written down by users against the address (and not
infrequently lost) so they are not particularly secure.

They can relatively easily be knocked off the wall and taken away to
be sliced up to access the key.

Some clients of mine recently bought a house with one of these attached to
the front wall besides the front door. Obviously fitted for carers of the
previous occupants. They didn't know the combination, I tried
brute-forcing it (in cryptanalytic terms) without success, and they didn't
want to damage the wall (Georgian stone) by prying it off so it just
stayed there a while until, by chance, they met someone who used to come
in to look after the Old Dear who remembered the combination!


--
John Stumbles

Bruce wrote:
On Wed, 18 Nov 2009 04:59:02 -0800 (PST), David
wrote:

Recently had one of those Careline things installed for an elderly
relative so she can get help if she has a fall by pressing a button on
a pendant. One of the options given was to install a key safe outside
the house so that staff can gain access in an emergency.

This seems eminently sensible.

They fit it at the rear of the house and I presume it is fitted in an
inconspicuous place. They are fitted by Age Concern for GBP50 and as
the retail price of the safes they fit
http://www.keysafe.co.uk/
is around GBP40, this seems very good.

Before I go ahead, are there any pitfalls of fitting one? Anything to
watch out for? Are the GE ones OK?


An elderly relative has the GE Slimline KeySafe illustrated in your
link. She has carers calling four times a day and they all use the
KeySafe. There have been no problems, although I feel the layout of
the numbered buttons and the clarity of their numbering could be
improved. It can also be a little fiddly removing and replacing the
key in cold weather.

Surely just as easy to fit a digital lock and much less complicated.

--
Chris Green

On Wed, 18 Nov 2009 14:59:46 +0000, wrote:

Bruce wrote:
On Wed, 18 Nov 2009 04:59:02 -0800 (PST), David
wrote:

Recently had one of those Careline things installed for an elderly
relative so she can get help if she has a fall by pressing a button on
a pendant. One of the options given was to install a key safe outside
the house so that staff can gain access in an emergency.

This seems eminently sensible.

They fit it at the rear of the house and I presume it is fitted in an
inconspicuous place. They are fitted by Age Concern for GBP50 and as
the retail price of the safes they fit
http://www.keysafe.co.uk/
is around GBP40, this seems very good.

Before I go ahead, are there any pitfalls of fitting one? Anything to
watch out for? Are the GE ones OK?


An elderly relative has the GE Slimline KeySafe illustrated in your
link. She has carers calling four times a day and they all use the
KeySafe. There have been no problems, although I feel the layout of
the numbered buttons and the clarity of their numbering could be
improved. It can also be a little fiddly removing and replacing the
key in cold weather.

Surely just as easy to fit a digital lock and much less complicated.


Do that, and my relative, who has Alzheimer's, would not be able to
get into her house, because she could not remember the combination.

The GE KeySafe allows the door to be opened normally by all other
keyholders. Only those who don't have a key but need access (such as
the carers) need to use the KeySafe.

If you don't understand the value of it, you don't need one. ;-)

Would that count as forced entry as far as an insurance company is
concerned? Or would having a key 'easily' accessible mean that the
insurance company would not pay up in the case of a burglary?

When I fitted one for an elderly relative we asked. Her insurers said
that use of the key from the keybox would not count as forced entry.
Not a big deal for her as it just meant she would have to bear the £250
excess on her policy. But with other policies the effect could of
course be more painful.

--
R

"David" wrote in message
...
Recently had one of those Careline things installed for an elderly
relative so she can get help if she has a fall by pressing a button on
a pendant. One of the options given was to install a key safe outside
the house so that staff can gain access in an emergency.

This seems eminently sensible.

They fit it at the rear of the house

I hope not!
They aren't that difficult to open by going through the combination and
fitting it at the rear out if sight gives the crook as much time as he
needs.

and I presume it is fitted in an
inconspicuous place.

They are best fitted where they can't be seen but anyone using it can be.

They are fitted by Age Concern for GBP50 and as
the retail price of the safes they fit
http://www.keysafe.co.uk/
is around GBP40, this seems very good.

I have fitted them in the past and were £20 from a local shop.

I fitted a code lock on the door as it saves having keys.

"Bruce" wrote in message
...


Surely just as easy to fit a digital lock and much less complicated.


Do that, and my relative, who has Alzheimer's, would not be able to
get into her house, because she could not remember the combination.

http://www.toolstation.com/shop/Safe.../sd2611/p38717

"Peter Parry" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 18 Nov 2009 13:34:44 +0000 (UTC),
(Andrew Gabriel) wrote:

In article
,
David writes:


Before I go ahead, are there any pitfalls of fitting one? Anything to
watch out for? Are the GE ones OK?

They all share the same problem which is someone forgetting to put the
key back. Key loss isn't uncommon. The combinations are also
commonly written down by users against the address (and not
infrequently lost) so they are not particularly secure.

That's because nobody reads the destructions and they don't put the key on
the key ring on the removable front.

"John Stumbles" wrote in message
...

Some clients of mine recently bought a house with one of these attached to
the front wall besides the front door. Obviously fitted for carers of the
previous occupants. They didn't know the combination, I tried
brute-forcing it (in cryptanalytic terms) without success, and they didn't
want to damage the wall (Georgian stone) by prying it off so it just
stayed there a while until, by chance, they met someone who used to come
in to look after the Old Dear who remembered the combination!

There aren't many combinations to try if you have the odd hour.

dennis@home wrote:
"John Stumbles" wrote in message
...

Some clients of mine recently bought a house with one of these
attached to the front wall besides the front door. Obviously fitted
for carers of the previous occupants. They didn't know the
combination, I tried brute-forcing it (in cryptanalytic terms)
without success, and they didn't want to damage the wall (Georgian
stone) by prying it off so it just stayed there a while until, by
chance, they met someone who used to come in to look after the Old
Dear who remembered the combination!

There aren't many combinations to try if you have the odd hour.

Only 10,000. Pillock.


--
Dave - The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk

On Wed, 18 Nov 2009 21:55:17 +0000, dennis@home wrote:

There aren't many combinations to try if you have the odd hour.

That's what I meant by brute-forcing it: I tried all the combinations.

Outside, in the winter: I probably didn't key in the right one correctly
and missed it.


--
John Stumbles

I can't stand intolerance

dennis@home wrote:
"David" wrote in message
...
Recently had one of those Careline things installed for an elderly
relative so she can get help if she has a fall by pressing a button
on a pendant. One of the options given was to install a key safe
outside the house so that staff can gain access in an emergency.

This seems eminently sensible.

They fit it at the rear of the house

I hope not!
They aren't that difficult to open by going through the combination
and fitting it at the rear out if sight gives the crook as much time
as he needs.

Dennis, if you use 4 digits there are 10,000 possible combinations. The GE
keysafes can use up to 6 digits. It would take days to go through them.


--
Dave - The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk

David wrote:
Recently had one of those Careline things installed for an elderly
relative so she can get help if she has a fall by pressing a button on
a pendant. One of the options given was to install a key safe outside
the house so that staff can gain access in an emergency.

This seems eminently sensible.

They fit it at the rear of the house and I presume it is fitted in an
inconspicuous place. They are fitted by Age Concern for GBP50 and as
the retail price of the safes they fit
http://www.keysafe.co.uk/
is around GBP40, this seems very good.

Before I go ahead, are there any pitfalls of fitting one? Anything to
watch out for? Are the GE ones OK?

I happen to be the GE Keysafe approved installer for the ME postcodes :-)
If you buy from them direct & want it installed you pay extra & get a
voucher.

The appproved method of installation is 4 x dynobolts. Be easier to pull a
sailor off your sister than get one off the wall.

My daughter uses them all the time when attending 'grey lady down' calls.
Normally control will get the code & pass it on, but usual practice is to
ask a neighbour how old the person is - 90% of the time its the year of
birth - so don't do that!


--
Dave - The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk

On Wed, 18 Nov 2009 22:59:06 GMT, The Medway Handyman wrote:

They aren't that difficult to open by going through the
combination
and fitting it at the rear out if sight gives the crook as much
time
as he needs.

Dennis, if you use 4 digits there are 10,000 possible combinations. The
GE keysafes can use up to 6 digits. It would take days to go through
them.

That depends on the mechanism. Some locks you can tell when you
select the correct digit by a very slightly different feel to the
button you push and/or how the other buttons feel.

Having 4 5 or 6 digits to select certainly makes it harder but I
doubt impossible.

--
Cheers
Dave.

On Nov 19, 10:55 am, "dennis@home"
wrote:
"John Stumbles" wrote in message

...

Some clients of mine recently bought a house with one of these attached to
the front wall besides the front door. Obviously fitted for carers of the
previous occupants. They didn't know the combination, I tried
brute-forcing it (in cryptanalytic terms) without success, and they didn't
want to damage the wall (Georgian stone) by prying it off so it just
stayed there a while until, by chance, they met someone who used to come
in to look after the Old Dear who remembered the combination!

There aren't many combinations to try if you have the odd hour.

For keypads where each key can be used once and the order used is not
important:
1023 combinations if there are 10 keys.
4095 combinations if there are 12 keys.

I installed a four disk combination lock (10000 combinations) on a
door in a remote location.
I used to set it to 0000 every time I left, and it was always
different next time I was there. People can't resist playing with a
combination lock when they think nobody is watching!
The only time anybody got in was by smashing the whole lock off the
door with a sledgehammer.

On Wed, 18 Nov 2009 22:59:06 GMT, "The Medway Handyman"
wrote:

dennis@home wrote:
"David" wrote in message
...
Recently had one of those Careline things installed for an elderly
relative so she can get help if she has a fall by pressing a button
on a pendant. One of the options given was to install a key safe
outside the house so that staff can gain access in an emergency.

This seems eminently sensible.

They fit it at the rear of the house

I hope not!
They aren't that difficult to open by going through the combination
and fitting it at the rear out if sight gives the crook as much time
as he needs.

Dennis, if you use 4 digits there are 10,000 possible combinations. The GE
keysafes can use up to 6 digits. It would take days to go through them.


The GE Slimline KeySafe can use up to 7 digits, giving 10 million
possible combinations. You could spend your whole retirement trying
to find the combination. ;-)

Bruce wrote:
On Wed, 18 Nov 2009 22:59:06 GMT, "The Medway Handyman"
wrote:

dennis@home wrote:
"David" wrote in message
...
Recently had one of those Careline things installed for an elderly
relative so she can get help if she has a fall by pressing a button
on a pendant. One of the options given was to install a key safe
outside the house so that staff can gain access in an emergency.

This seems eminently sensible.

They fit it at the rear of the house

I hope not!
They aren't that difficult to open by going through the combination
and fitting it at the rear out if sight gives the crook as much time
as he needs.

Dennis, if you use 4 digits there are 10,000 possible combinations.
The GE keysafes can use up to 6 digits. It would take days to go
through them.


The GE Slimline KeySafe can use up to 7 digits, giving 10 million
possible combinations. You could spend your whole retirement trying
to find the combination. ;-)

Dennis prolly has the time, nothing much else to do...


--
Dave - The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk

The GE Slimline KeySafe can use up to 7 digits, giving 10 million
possible combinations.

Does it really allow you to use the same digit more than once? And
distinguish the order in which the keys are pressed? The few I've ever
used don't.

But I've assumed that the main consideration is that the majority of
burglars looking for their next fix don't have the patience and/or short
term memory to work through the combinations.

--
R

Dear All
Thanks for the advice. My day has been particularly enriched by
learning the phrase "grey lady down". I'll go ahead with the GE box
offered by Age Concern after checking the house insurance situation
and speaking to them about where its sited, or being there when they
install.
Thanks again
David

On Thu, 19 Nov 2009 08:45:08 +0000, Bruce wrote:

The GE Slimline KeySafe can use up to 7 digits, giving 10 million
possible combinations.

Assuming you can use one number more than once. If you can't it
significantly reduces the number of combinations. I expect there is a
clever bit of maths that given the length of the code, number of
allowed characters per position and max number of reuses would tell
you the number of combinations available.

--
Cheers
Dave.

On Thu, 19 Nov 2009 09:22:38 GMT, "neverwas"
wrote:
The GE Slimline KeySafe can use up to 7 digits, giving 10 million
possible combinations.

Does it really allow you to use the same digit more than once? And
distinguish the order in which the keys are pressed? The few I've ever
used don't.


That's a good point. I have a key to the house so don't ever use the
KeySafe, but I will take a look next time I visit.

10*9*8*7*6*5*4 = 604,800 combinations from 7 digits.


But I've assumed that the main consideration is that the majority of
burglars looking for their next fix don't have the patience and/or short
term memory to work through the combinations.


Yes, that has to be it.

"John Stumbles" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 18 Nov 2009 21:55:17 +0000, dennis@home wrote:

There aren't many combinations to try if you have the odd hour.

That's what I meant by brute-forcing it: I tried all the combinations.

Outside, in the winter: I probably didn't key in the right one correctly
and missed it.

There are only 2^10 combinations on the push button one (1023).
Even less if you assume they have left it with the four button combination
they come with (210 IMMIC).
But you would need some basic maths and to have some idea of how they work,
maybe a child of five to help?

I doubt if a normal lock has that many differs so its not less secure.

"Bruce" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 18 Nov 2009 22:59:06 GMT, "The Medway Handyman"
wrote:

dennis@home wrote:
"David" wrote in message
...
Recently had one of those Careline things installed for an elderly
relative so she can get help if she has a fall by pressing a button
on a pendant. One of the options given was to install a key safe
outside the house so that staff can gain access in an emergency.

This seems eminently sensible.

They fit it at the rear of the house

I hope not!
They aren't that difficult to open by going through the combination
and fitting it at the rear out if sight gives the crook as much time
as he needs.

Dennis, if you use 4 digits there are 10,000 possible combinations. The
GE
keysafes can use up to 6 digits. It would take days to go through them.


The GE Slimline KeySafe can use up to 7 digits, giving 10 million
possible combinations. You could spend your whole retirement trying
to find the combination. ;-)


The GE can have each button pressed once only, pressing it more than once
has zero effect.
There are 1023 + 0000 combinations no matter how many digits you select as
long as you don't tell the cracker how many digits he needs to press.

F-, join TMW in the dunces corner.

On Thu, 19 Nov 2009 09:29:40 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Liquorice"
wrote:

On Thu, 19 Nov 2009 08:45:08 +0000, Bruce wrote:

The GE Slimline KeySafe can use up to 7 digits, giving 10 million
possible combinations.

Assuming you can use one number more than once. If you can't it
significantly reduces the number of combinations. I expect there is a
clever bit of maths that given the length of the code, number of
allowed characters per position and max number of reuses would tell
you the number of combinations available.


10*9*8*7*6*5*4 = 604,800 combinations from 7 digits.

"neverwas" wrote in message
...

The GE Slimline KeySafe can use up to 7 digits, giving 10 million
possible combinations.

Does it really allow you to use the same digit more than once? And
distinguish the order in which the keys are pressed? The few I've ever
used don't.

But I've assumed that the main consideration is that the majority of
burglars looking for their next fix don't have the patience and/or short
term memory to work through the combinations.

For some reason people can spin a dial one digit at a time but can't work
binary.

On 18 Nov, 12:59, David wrote:

One of the options given was to install a key safe outside
the house so that staff can gain access in an emergency.

Just watch out for your social worker leaving the case notes on the
doorstep, with the combination on them.

On 18 Nov, 22:59, "The Medway Handyman"
wrote:

Dennis, if you use 4 digits there are 10,000 possible combinations. *The GE
keysafes can use up to 6 digits. *It would take days to go through them..

Many of them have only 1024 combinations.

Many are also pickable by touch - particularly the 4 dial sort.

Really though, they're all diecast zinc and will respond to a small
hammering.

Does it matter anyway? If you've got agency care staff going in, the
jewellery and silverware will have walked already. 8-(