On Wed, 18 Nov 2009 22:59:06 GMT, "The Medway Handyman"
wrote:

Dennis, if you use 4 digits there are 10,000 possible combinations.

Nowhere near that number as you can only use each key once, so a
combination of 1234 is valid but 4433 cannot be used. Some lockboxes
are also not fussed about the order in which they keys are pressed, so
if the combination set is 1234 any sequence of the correct numbers (eg
2314) will open the box. (I don't know if the GE one does this).

"Andy Dingley" wrote in message
...

Does it matter anyway? If you've got agency care staff going in, the
jewellery and silverware will have walked already. 8-(

Don't tar other people with your problems.
My parents had care staff daily for years and never had anything bad happen.

"Peter Parry" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 18 Nov 2009 22:59:06 GMT, "The Medway Handyman"
wrote:

Dennis, if you use 4 digits there are 10,000 possible combinations.

Nowhere near that number as you can only use each key once, so a
combination of 1234 is valid but 4433 cannot be used. Some lockboxes
are also not fussed about the order in which they keys are pressed, so
if the combination set is 1234 any sequence of the correct numbers (eg
2314) will open the box. (I don't know if the GE one does this).


I do, and you would think they would make sure their "approved" fitters also
knew what they were fitting.
Just another reason not to use a handyman to do work, it would be better to
get in a trades person that has rudimentary training or can read.

On 19 Nov, 10:22, "dennis@home" wrote:

My parents had care staff daily for years and never had anything bad happen.

Who employs them? I'd trust our direct employs _far_ more than the
agency people. That extends to simply doing their jobs, let alone
doing things that aren't their job, or their honesty.

On 19 Nov, 10:21, Peter Parry wrote:

Dennis, if you use 4 digits there are 10,000 possible combinations. *

Nowhere near that number as you can only use each key once, so a
combination of 1234 is valid but 4433 cannot be used. *

Nearly all of them are _either_ 4 independent digits (10000
combinations) or a selection of 0-10 digits where each digit is either
used once or not used and the order doesn't matter (1024
combinations).

Although there are a few locks (a well-known brand used in offices)
that have a sequence of digits (i.e. fixed length, ordered) and also
forbid repetition, I've not seen that mechanism in a water-resistant
external form. They're also manipulatable.

A sequential drum combination (back & forth dial) is a nightmare on an
external door, as it needs good eyesight, good lighting, good motor
control and is generally unsuitable as an outside door lock, no matter
who's using it. If you need that level, go electronic. A combination
of keypad (carers) and simple cardlock might work, especially if it's
non-contact.

On 18 Nov, 22:59, "The Medway Handyman"
wrote:

if you use 4 digits there are 10,000 possible combinations. *The GE
keysafes can use up to 6 digits. *It would take days to go through them..

As a very vague rule of thumb, a lock with a varying sequence length
is likely to be _less_ secure in practice.

"Andy Dingley" wrote in message
...
On 19 Nov, 10:22, "dennis@home" wrote:

My parents had care staff daily for years and never had anything bad
happen.

Who employs them? I'd trust our direct employs _far_ more than the
agency people. That extends to simply doing their jobs, let alone
doing things that aren't their job, or their honesty.

An agency contracted by the LA to provide care.
We never did get around to applying for direct aid as the other brothers and
sister were always arguing about it.

My sister was worst, she said we should do all the care, but wanted every
weekend off to go caravanning.

"Andy Dingley" wrote in message
...
On 19 Nov, 10:21, Peter Parry wrote:

Dennis, if you use 4 digits there are 10,000 possible combinations.

Nowhere near that number as you can only use each key once, so a
combination of 1234 is valid but 4433 cannot be used.

Nearly all of them are _either_ 4 independent digits (10000
combinations) or a selection of 0-10 digits where each digit is either
used once or not used and the order doesn't matter (1024
combinations).

The ones with wheels have many combinations but are easy to find the code
for each wheel if you know how.
The GE boxes are mechanical and all you have to do is press the correct
buttons in any order.

There are some electric locks with keypads that do have a large number of
combinations.

Although there are a few locks (a well-known brand used in offices)
that have a sequence of digits (i.e. fixed length, ordered) and also
forbid repetition, I've not seen that mechanism in a water-resistant
external form. They're also manipulatable.

A sequential drum combination (back & forth dial) is a nightmare on an
external door, as it needs good eyesight, good lighting, good motor
control and is generally unsuitable as an outside door lock, no matter
who's using it. If you need that level, go electronic. A combination
of keypad (carers) and simple cardlock might work, especially if it's
non-contact.

On Thu, 19 Nov 2009 04:01:17 -0800 (PST), Andy Dingley
wrote:

On 19 Nov, 10:21, Peter Parry wrote:

Dennis, if you use 4 digits there are 10,000 possible combinations. *

Nowhere near that number as you can only use each key once, so a
combination of 1234 is valid but 4433 cannot be used. *

Nearly all of them are _either_ 4 independent digits (10000
combinations) or a selection of 0-10 digits where each digit is either
used once or not used and the order doesn't matter (1024
combinations).

Although there are a few locks (a well-known brand used in offices)
that have a sequence of digits (i.e. fixed length, ordered) and also
forbid repetition, I've not seen that mechanism in a water-resistant
external form. They're also manipulatable.

A sequential drum combination (back & forth dial) is a nightmare on an
external door, as it needs good eyesight, good lighting, good motor
control and is generally unsuitable as an outside door lock, no matter
who's using it. If you need that level, go electronic. A combination
of keypad (carers) and simple cardlock might work, especially if it's
non-contact.

The trouble with most keypad locks, if they're used regularly and the
code isn't changed, is that in time the 'right' buttons and surrounds
become scuffed and worn, partially giving the game away...

--
Frank Erskine

dennis@home wrote:
"Bruce" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 18 Nov 2009 22:59:06 GMT, "The Medway Handyman"
wrote:

dennis@home wrote:
"David" wrote in message
...
Recently had one of those Careline things installed for an elderly
relative so she can get help if she has a fall by pressing a
button on a pendant. One of the options given was to install a
key safe outside the house so that staff can gain access in an
emergency. This seems eminently sensible.

They fit it at the rear of the house

I hope not!
They aren't that difficult to open by going through the combination
and fitting it at the rear out if sight gives the crook as much
time as he needs.

Dennis, if you use 4 digits there are 10,000 possible combinations.
The GE
keysafes can use up to 6 digits. It would take days to go through
them.


The GE Slimline KeySafe can use up to 7 digits, giving 10 million
possible combinations. You could spend your whole retirement trying
to find the combination. ;-)


The GE can have each button pressed once only, pressing it more than
once has zero effect.
There are 1023 + 0000 combinations no matter how many digits you
select as long as you don't tell the cracker how many digits he needs
to press.
F-, join TMW in the dunces corner.

Not so. The most common code set is year of birth. If an ambulance crew
don't know the code, they ask a neighbour how old the patient is & key in
the year. It works 90% of the time.

You couldn't have 1941, 1944, 1949 etc if you could only use each button
once.


--
Dave - The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk

dennis@home wrote:
"Peter Parry" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 18 Nov 2009 22:59:06 GMT, "The Medway Handyman"
wrote:

Dennis, if you use 4 digits there are 10,000 possible combinations.

Nowhere near that number as you can only use each key once, so a
combination of 1234 is valid but 4433 cannot be used. Some lockboxes
are also not fussed about the order in which they keys are pressed,
so if the combination set is 1234 any sequence of the correct
numbers (eg 2314) will open the box. (I don't know if the GE one
does this).

I do, and you would think they would make sure their "approved"
fitters also knew what they were fitting.
Just another reason not to use a handyman to do work, it would be
better to get in a trades person that has rudimentary training or can
read.

Do stop being a **** Dennis. You don't know at all, talking bollox as
usual. In the above example 4433 could be used and 2314 would not open a
box set to 1234.


--
Dave - The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk

On Thu, 19 Nov 2009 17:42:50 GMT, "The Medway Handyman"
wrote:

You don't know at all, talking bollox as
usual. In the above example 4433 could be used and 2314 would not open a
box set to 1234.

With the GE Keysafe the absolute maximum number of combinations is
1024 (or so say GE at
http://www.keysafe.co.uk/frequently_asked_questions).

Each key _can_ only be used once in any key sequence and the sequence
of entry is unimportant, so a lock set to 1234 will open with 1324,
4321 etc.

http://media.vstall.co.uk/sentico/do...he_Code_07.pdf

As each key sequence has to be entered fully there is a potential gain
from having a key sequence as they recommend of 5 or 6 digits. As it
is almost every lock used has a 4 digit sequence so this gain is never
realised.

Although intrinsically not particularly secure, in many cases it will
still be more secure than the traditional night latch fitted to a
cardboard door. The greatest weakness is still the human one of
combinations being written down and never changed.

"Peter Parry" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 19 Nov 2009 17:42:50 GMT, "The Medway Handyman"
wrote:

You don't know at all, talking bollox as
usual. In the above example 4433 could be used and 2314 would not open a
box set to 1234.

With the GE Keysafe the absolute maximum number of combinations is
1024 (or so say GE at
http://www.keysafe.co.uk/frequently_asked_questions).

Each key _can_ only be used once in any key sequence and the sequence
of entry is unimportant, so a lock set to 1234 will open with 1324,
4321 etc.

http://media.vstall.co.uk/sentico/do...he_Code_07.pdf

As each key sequence has to be entered fully there is a potential gain
from having a key sequence as they recommend of 5 or 6 digits. As it
is almost every lock used has a 4 digit sequence so this gain is never
realised.

Its no good trying to use facts with TMH, he is too stupid, as his continual
insults rather than actually reading what I said shows.

Just ignore him as he adds very little to any discussion.

The Medway Handyman wrote:

The GE can have each button pressed once only, pressing it more than
once has zero effect.


You couldn't have 1941, 1944, 1949 etc if you could only use each button
once.



Sorry, TMH, you are just wrong.
That's *exactly* how they work.

I have one here at Lowe Towers.
( stops IdiotBoy (tm) (AKA #1 son)loosing his key )

To set the combination, you open the thing and there is a
screwdriver-slot behind each of the 10 buttons. Each can be set to
'yes' or 'no' essentially.

So if you want the combination to be 1865, you set the screw behind '1'.
'8', '6' and '5' to 'yes', and the others to 'no'.

Once you have set the combination, it makes no difference which order
you press the buttons. 1568 will get you in.
Just so long as you press the 'yes' buttons, and leave the 'no' buttons
un-pressed, that's all it takes.

There's no method to control the sequence, nor to have the same digit
repeated. If you want to set the combination to '1911', you set the '1'
button to 'yes', the '9' button to 'yes', and then what?

--
Ron

The Medway Handyman wrote:


Do stop being a **** Dennis. You don't know at all, talking bollox as
usual. In the above example 4433 could be used and 2314 would not open a
box set to 1234.



There's no way to set 4433.
The setting would be 4,3 = on , others = off.

So all the following would work:

34
343
34343

434443
43433
43
43334
434
43
3433
34
3443


get the idea?

*Any* combination with 3,4 only works.

--
Ron

Owain wrote:
On 19 Nov, 19:04, Ron Lowe wrote:
To set the combination, you open the thing and there is a
screwdriver-slot behind each of the 10 buttons. Each can be set to
'yes' or 'no' essentially.
So if you want the combination to be 1865, you set the screw behind '1'.
'8', '6' and '5' to 'yes', and the others to 'no'.
Once you have set the combination, it makes no difference which order
you press the buttons. 1568 will get you in.
Just so long as you press the 'yes' buttons, and leave the 'no' buttons
un-pressed, that's all it takes.

So setting a 10-digit code would be pretty stoopid, then?

Owain


probably :-)

If the combination had all 10 digits in it, then
you just press all the buttons, in any old order.

But it goes to show that the maths is not as simple as it first seems.

Also, they are made from very soft metal.
I had to drill out the existing holes in the back-plate to mount mine,
and the drill went through it like it was chocolate.

So I'd say the best advice is to mount it out of direct sight ( with the
rubber over over it ) , but not so out-of-sight that a ner-do-well has
all day to hammer on it. It would not stand up to machine tools for
more than a few moments.

Mine is visible in the front driveway, but only if you know what you are
looking for. But a scrote would be very visible hacking at it.

It's gotten me out of a tight spot more than once.

--
Ron

Ron Lowe :
There's no method to control the sequence, nor to have the same digit
repeated. If you want to set the combination to '1911', you set the '1'
button to 'yes', the '9' button to 'yes', and then what?

Then the job's done. 1911 will open it. So will 19, of course.

--
Mike Barnes

On Thu, 19 Nov 2009 17:42:50 +0000, The Medway Handyman wrote:

Do stop being a **** Dennis. You don't know at all, talking bollox as
usual. In the above example 4433 could be used and 2314 would not open
a box set to 1234.

Next time you're on the Medway university campus, let me know and I'll
show you a lock in the Gillingham Building that only allows each number
to be used once.

You might even have fitted it!
--
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
http://www.mirrorservice.org

Mike Barnes wrote:
Ron Lowe :
There's no method to control the sequence, nor to have the same digit
repeated. If you want to set the combination to '1911', you set the '1'
button to 'yes', the '9' button to 'yes', and then what?

Then the job's done. 1911 will open it. So will 19, of course.


Yes, that's correct.

The argument against these devices is that the mechanical limitations
reduces the number of possible combinations to a low level, 1023 IIRC.

But that isn't the point.

No-one is going to spend time and try to manually brute-force the
combination. Manually pushing buttons 1023 times is not fun, and is
slow.

You'd just attack it's weakest point: mechanically.
They will not withstand mechanical brute-force for long.

So mounting the device sensibly is important.

--
Ron

John Rumm wrote:
Ron Lowe wrote:
The Medway Handyman wrote:


Do stop being a **** Dennis. You don't know at all, talking bollox
as usual. In the above example 4433 could be used and 2314 would not
open a box set to 1234.



There's no way to set 4433.
The setting would be 4,3 = on , others = off.

So all the following would work:

34
343
34343

434443
43433
43
43334
434
43
3433
34
3443


get the idea?

*Any* combination with 3,4 only works.

On some, pushing the wrong key will invalidate the attempt - you then
need to push the clear button before trying again...

Once weakness is that the code buttons are often visibly cleaner than
the rest!



Yes, that's always the case AFAIK.

--
Ron

"John Rumm" wrote in message
...

Once weakness is that the code buttons are often visibly cleaner than the
rest!

At the risk of pointing out the obvious.. alarm panels with membrane pads
usually have indented surfaces where the active buttons are. Unless you
change the code occasionally.

"dennis@home" :


"John Rumm" wrote in message
...

Once weakness is that the code buttons are often visibly cleaner than
the rest!

At the risk of pointing out the obvious.. alarm panels with membrane
pads usually have indented surfaces where the active buttons are.
Unless you change the code occasionally.

True, but with electrical system the digit order is important and
repeated digits are possible. So the wear pattern isn't the complete
give-away that it is with the mechanical system we've been talking
about.

--
Mike Barnes

On Wed, 18 Nov 2009 22:51:53 +0000, The Medway Handyman wrote:

dennis@home wrote:

There aren't many combinations to try if you have the odd hour.

Only 10,000. Pillock.

No, 1234 is the same as 4321 and 1432 and 1342 etc

--
John Stumbles

Hypnotising Hypnotists Can Be Tricky

On Nov 19, 10:22 pm, "neverwas" wrote:
The GE Slimline KeySafe can use up to 7 digits, giving 10 million
possible combinations.

Does it really allow you to use the same digit more than once? And
distinguish the order in which the keys are pressed? The few I've ever
used don't.

But I've assumed that the main consideration is that the majority of
burglars looking for their next fix don't have the patience and/or short
term memory to work through the combinations.

I would connect a couple of the non-used buttons (especially the top
left one) to ring a loud bell for a minute.