wrote:
snip We've had a dehumidifier on he landing for years, in fact thinking of
replacing it (or heat recovery ventillation) It's quite effective in a well
insulated and draughtproofed house. It definitely reduces the moisture in the
air, and warms it. With electric heating it will cost little to run as it
also heats partly with electricity and partly from the latent heat from the
condensate.
/snip


"latent heat from the condensate" is a nice technical term that may not
be well understood. So let me try to explain...

One point first. Steam that you see is little drops of water. You can
make water into a gas, and if you look right next to the spout of a
boiling kettle you see a little clear bit before the white stuff.
That's water as a gas. You can call it steam, or water vapour; it
doesn't have to be hot if mixed with air.

You know if you leave a saucepan of water on the hob, and it's boiling,
the water isn't getting any hotter even though the gas/electricity is
going flat out? That's because the energy is being used to make steam
from water.

Or if you leave a damp towel hanging up it gets cold? Same reason - it
needs heat to make the water into water vapour.

That's latent heat, and you can get it back.

A dehumidifier turns water vapour back into water. It takes some energy
to run the thing, but the energy from making the vapour back into water
ends up as heat, and it heats the room. You get MORE heat out of a
dehumidifier than the electricity that went into it.

Put a dehumidifier on a timer so it runs on the Economy 7 that your
heating is on and you'll get a dry house, AND you'll cut your power
bill. Only slightly, but every little helps.

Andy

On Sun, 1 Nov 2009 16:08:42 -0000, Fredxx wrote:

I'm rather surprised about that. Most like mine use a sealed
primary,
where the moist warm air is cooled through a heat exchanger. The

condensate from the primary side is then pumped to a storage
container.

The problem with them all is that the process of condensing out
the
moisture isn't as efficient as they would like you to believe so
the
vented air is still quite moist.

I see, mine is different, such that the internal space is generally
sealed with minimal leaks past doors etc.

Same when we had a washer/dryer. The air was circulated round through
the drum, heater and condenser. That was cooled by a slow trickle of
cold water. This water and the condensate was pumped out down the
normal waste water pipe. There was only minimal, if any, warm moist
air leakage into the room. The room did get hot but I suspect that
more to do with the losses from the uninsulated hot drum etc that hot
air being vented into the room.

--
Cheers
Dave.

On Sun, 1 Nov 2009 16:08:42 -0000, "Fredxx" wrote:


I see, mine is different, such that the internal space is generally sealed
with minimal leaks past doors etc.

Minimal is the key word. Which? did a test of about 20 a year ago,
all leaked significant amounts of moist air into the room they were
in.

Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Sun, 1 Nov 2009 14:38:54 -0000, whiskeyomega wrote:

FWIW, this isnt an issue over money. We have the money.

You can't take it with you.

And unless you are planning now the government may well help
themselves to a substantial amount of it should you try and leave it
to anyone else.


Indeed. Not to mention the lawyers..

If money is no object, use a heat pump, possibly with UFH, correct any
wall insulation and guttering issues, and fit insulation under the
floor, and heat recovery ventilation.

But we are talking more than 10k for that little lot.

"Peter Parry" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 1 Nov 2009 16:08:42 -0000, "Fredxx" wrote:


I see, mine is different, such that the internal space is generally sealed
with minimal leaks past doors etc.

Minimal is the key word. Which? did a test of about 20 a year ago,
all leaked significant amounts of moist air into the room they were
in.


OK - mine's a fairly new Bosch which just seems to warm the room. One thing
of note is that I don't get any smell from the clothes until I open the
door.

On 1 Nov, 09:17, "whiskeyomega" wrote:
I hadn't used to be damp. I don't know what we have done to create this.
Its only happened in the last couple of years.

Having gone through all the possibles it looks like its condensation. *But
our lifestyle hasn't changed any so I don't know why its suddenly happening.
Some mornings the walls are ringing wet, especially on damp days when its
cold and raining and we haven't got a lot of heating on.

The kitchen and bathroom are obviously damp places but now its spreading to
the bedrooms and dining room.

We have double glazing, central heating and loft insulation etc. We have
done everything to make the house energy efficient and stop global warming
and my OH turned down the heating a couple of years ago - and it was then we
started to get damp and it isn't stopping.

Its now costing an arm and a leg to heat properly to clear the damp.

Its so bad now I can dry clothes and put them in the airing cupboard and
they get damp again. If I leave them out to air , even then they get *a cold
feeling. * The beds worse. I put dry sheets and duvet on it and they get
damp during the day , so the bed has to be stripped and aired every day and
that doesn't do much really either. Its just damp.

I know they say you have to ventilate a house but how can I do this when all
the double glazing etc is there to stop that without making the house cold
or having to pay out in heating bills to heat the air outside? *Whilst
opening a window can help it doesnt cure the problem and the house then gets
cold. *It doesn't help with its raining though.

I just don't know what to do. OH is burying head in sand ( I guess he
doesn't know either ) *and I am left being constantly ill .

I had pneumonia and suffer with my chest *and have scars on my lungs as a
result and really do need to be warm without it costing too much and not
damp.

Can someone tell me what we can do? I have looked across the internet and
they don't have any practical solutions ( tried those crystal things - they
pick the water up but need changing every day). * I had thought of a
dehumidifier but that would cost to keep on all the time too too.

The house is traditional build 1950 ish, * rural *area, *detached, *if that
helps.

Dear whiskeyomega
Having gone through all the possibles it looks like its condensation.
*But our lifestyle hasn't changed any so I don't know why its suddenly
happening.


We have double glazing, central heating and loft insulation etc. We
have done everything to make the house energy efficient and stop
global warming and my OH turned down the heating a couple of years ago
- and it was then we started to get damp and it isn't stopping.
You answered your own question

Now you have probably got interstitial condensation and need to get
the fabric dry with a dehumidifier.
I would consider trickle vents and there is no point in sleeping with
the window shut
Open it a bit and turn of the rads at night
shut them in the morning after the heat comes on
Read up and carry on doing all you have done to date on the anti
condensation works mentioned by others

Consider oil based paint on the walls as a vapour check to stop any
interstitial
Chris

"Dave Starling" wrote



I'm not saying anything against yourself but do your benefits give you
a fuel allowance or are all your energy bills paid for you. If someone
else is paying the bills it means psychologically that you are less
inclined to reduce your fuel consumption.

----------

nope, absolutely no help with energy bills at all,

i pay 55 quids a month on direct debit for the gas and lecky, and so far
that's covered it, and i'm on a normal tarrif not one of the social ones, i
do change suppliers every couple of months now mind, was on a fixed rate
jobbie for the first 18 months we lived here, was paying 9p a kwh lecky, and
something similarly low for gas, now it's about 12.5p a kwh,

we do live in a house that's correctly sized for us, we have one bedroom, a
living room, kitchen, barfroom, and there's the upstairs that would be
un-used bedrooms (dormer bungalow) but they are used as store rooms and one
i've only just started using as a hobby room.

the upstairs rads are turned practicaly off, living room rads are full on,
so is the bedroom one, hallway one is on half and barfroom one is on
quarter, that seems to heat the place nicely.
boiler is controlled via a wirless thermostat, which gets taken with us from
living room to bedroom.

according to my energy monitor, we use an average of 2.7kw a day of lecky,
1kw of that is for the fridge freezer alone, as when we were away with
everything but that turned off, the monitor showed just under 1k a day
usage.

we dont drink tea or coffee, so there's no 3kw kettle being used, cook
mostly on the gas cooker, occasional blasts in the nuker... which pulls
about 1300 watts, 900 watts cooking power,
every single light is a CFL or fluoro tube type, even the gardens flood
light has a 30 watt cfl in it, standard 500 watt halogen fitting type,
illuminated the garden perfectly for us, especialy as i took the time to
ensure it's angled so no light goes over the fences and into neigbours
gardens.

#1 Replace your guttering. £450-750.
Insurers may cover it. 1950s often had porous mortar & bricks, water
bridging to inner leaf. The usual sign is a significant increase in
woodlice, enormous spiders at the first sharp frost.

#2 Fireplaces need rain cap & bottom vent.
An open chimney sees 6-FEET of water saturating brickwork, underfloor
areas, building.
Rain cap on the chimney prevents rain ingress, bottom vent allows it
to dry out. Otherwise you will get serious dry-rot problems and often
dead bird buildup. This is particularly true with unused boarded up by
builder upstairs chimney's. Lift an edge of the masterboard covering
and it will be thick black mould.

#3 Check all tank & toilet overflow pipes.
If the water level gets too high, wind down the overflow causes water
to weep back out the overflow, if it does not have a T-piece on the
end or angle down it will run back and soak the outer OR inner leaf.

#4 Kitchen extractor.
Window fan or cooker hood removing kitchen steam.

#5 Bathroom extractor.
Window fan or shower fan as necessary.

#6 Dehumidifier.
These are expensive to run EXCEPT you have E7 E10 which will help
tremendously - run overnight etc.
About 1p/hr overnight on E7, over double that during the day.

#7 Open window vents or hit-mass vents.
Open trickle vents in DG, open wall vents and add hit-miss-vents to
limit (but not eliminate) ventilation.


You have sources of moistu
Cooking, baths, showers, sinks, kettles; Humans breathing; Drying
washing.

You must get this moisture out:
Remove it by controlled ventilation.
Dehumidification can help, but impractical to leave all doors open
(impractical), expensive to run.

Otherwise moisture will condense:
Condensation occurs on any surface whose temperature is below the dew
point (cold walls).


That you have damp bedding indicates extremely high humidity.
This will not help re colds, flu & so on (viruses in moisture on dust
particles).

Pneumonnia can be bacterial or viral, but immune system strength plays
a part.
1950s houses are a pain in that they were meant to be "roasting hot
burning coal" with huge kW output, huge ventilation, damp banished.
They need careful ventilation otherwise they get quite nasty
environments.
Many 1950s houses had very porous bricks & mortar, leaking guttering
will really soak that outerleaf which can cause cavity condensation on
the inner leaf (below dew point) and general damp. Typical sign is
woodlice and multiple massive spiders at the first cold snap. 1950s
can also mean rough sawn, so once woodlice get in they will literally
swiss-cheese the place and all that stops you going through is the
tongue-&-groove as joists progressively disintegrate, ceilings crack,
walls build on floorboards shift around doorframes and so on.

CWI will stop moisture condensing on the walls, so more is kept in
suspension in the air. Wonderful, you still NEED to get that moisture
out. CWI reduces heat loss through the walls so you can AFFORD to
increase ventilation. See how it works?

Again, that you have damp bedding means you NEED more ventilation AND
reduce moisture creation.
1950s when damp can be nasty environments, perpetual tonsilitis,
colds, bugs - particularly if your chimneys are unventilated and lack
rain caps (absolutely critical, the record was 37 dead birds in a
stinking upstairs chimney AFAIK).

On Sun, 1 Nov 2009 14:49:49 -0800 (PST), js.b1 wrote:

... once woodlice get in they will literally swiss-cheese the place ...

Eh? Woodlice don't have the mouth parts to deal with anything other
than already rotten timber or very soft fresh plant material.

They are a crustacean though and need damp to survive so their
presence is an indicator of damp and rotting plant material.

--
Cheers
Dave.

js.b1 wrote:
snip
Many 1950s houses had very porous bricks & mortar, leaking guttering
will really soak that outerleaf which can cause cavity condensation on
the inner leaf (below dew point) and general damp. Typical sign is
woodlice and multiple massive spiders at the first cold snap. 1950s
can also mean rough sawn, so once woodlice get in they will literally
swiss-cheese the place and all that stops you going through is the
tongue-&-groove as joists progressively disintegrate, ceilings crack,
walls build on floorboards shift around doorframes and so on.
/snip


The spiders come in at the first cold snap because frost kills them,
they have to find somewhere to hide. The typical brown hairy Tegeneria
is originally a cave species and loves houses. That's not the damp.

Andy

whiskeyomega explained :
I know our guttering leaks like a sieve in places. Its old cast iron. It
mostly leaks on joints.
It leaks in the corner in the kitchen ( dont know about the front), on the
joint outside the bathroom to my knowledge, across most of the one side of
the house around the spare bedroom and it might be leaky around the main
bedroom too I havent looked.

I have told my husband about it but he says its OK and doesnt want to do
anything about it. he did say he would go and put some putty around one of
the joints. to hold the downpout together but he hasnt done that yet. ;-(

I would suggest that alone might well be much or all of the cause of
your problem. You have already stated that the problem is worse, when
the weather is wet. If any water is running down the walls, it will
make its way inside.

At least get the gutters and fall pipes removed and replaced with
modern plastic ones - it needant cost that much.

You make mention of everything being damp, that is a really serious to
health problem. I'm sure I could turn our heating system off completely
and it might feel cool, but it certainly would not be in the slightest
bit damp. The damp internal air you are suffering, will need even more
warmth to make it feel comfortable.

--
Regards,
Harry (M1BYT) (L)
http://www.ukradioamateur.co.uk

After serious thinking Peter Parry wrote :
Condensing dryers (or washer/dryers) actually release a lot of
moisture back into the room, typically a litre or more per load.

I'm not saying you are wrong, but our doesn't. It is in a small not
usually heated utility room and it never feels humid or suffers steamed
up windows. The washer is almost completely sealed when drying, so
there is nowhere for the moisture to escape, apart from condensing and
going down the drain.

--
Regards,
Harry (M1BYT) (L)
http://www.ukradioamateur.co.uk

Peter Parry was thinking very hard :
The problem with them all is that the process of condensing out the
moisture isn't as efficient as they would like you to believe so the
vented air is still quite moist.

Air vented from where exactly?

It is a closed loop. The air flows from the drum, through the
condensor, through a duct which reheats the air then back to the drum -
no venting, no wasted heat.

--
Regards,
Harry (M1BYT) (L)
http://www.ukradioamateur.co.uk

Peter Parry laid this down on his screen :
Minimal is the key word. Which? did a test of about 20 a year ago,
all leaked significant amounts of moist air into the room they were
in.

Mmm, 20 years ago! Did they have condensing drier then?

--
Regards,
Harry (M1BYT) (L)
http://www.ukradioamateur.co.uk

On Mon, 02 Nov 2009 22:12:04 GMT, Harry Bloomfield
wrote:

Peter Parry laid this down on his screen :
Minimal is the key word. Which? did a test of about 20 a year ago,
all leaked significant amounts of moist air into the room they were
in.

Mmm, 20 years ago! Did they have condensing drier then?

Actually I think they did, however where the 20 came from I have no
idea. I blame the cat and will withhold it's rations.

On Mon, 02 Nov 2009 22:10:52 GMT, Harry Bloomfield
wrote:

Peter Parry was thinking very hard :
The problem with them all is that the process of condensing out the
moisture isn't as efficient as they would like you to believe so the
vented air is still quite moist.

Air vented from where exactly?

It is a closed loop. The air flows from the drum, through the
condensor, through a duct which reheats the air then back to the drum -
no venting, no wasted heat.

Except it isn't very closed, which is why there is leakage. Some
machines are much worse than others.

Peter Parry brought next idea :
Except it isn't very closed, which is why there is leakage. Some
machines are much worse than others.

We are on our second washer/ condensing drier, which was preceded by a
vented drier. Neither of the w/driers leak(ed)s any substantial amount
of moisure into the air whether washing or drying, because their would
be noplace they could leak apart from when you open the doors.

The vented drier did discharge quite a bit of moisture into the room,
despite it's venting.

--
Regards,
Harry (M1BYT) (L)
http://www.ukradioamateur.co.uk

On 02/11/09 22:12, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
Peter Parry laid this down on his screen :
Minimal is the key word. Which? did a test of about 20 a year ago,
all leaked significant amounts of moist air into the room they were
in.

Mmm, 20 years ago! Did they have condensing drier then?

Yes, I had one at least 23 years ago

On Mon, 02 Nov 2009 22:02:28 GMT, Harry Bloomfield wrote:

I'm sure I could turn our heating system off completely and it might
feel cool, but it certainly would not be in the slightest bit damp.

Oh it would. We only heat the barn (conversion) part to about 12C. We
don't live in that part but the space is still damp. Not to the
extent of mould or anything near that but definitely not dry as in
the properly heated part in which we live and cook/wash etc.

--
Cheers
Dave.

Dave Liquorice wrote...
Eh? Woodlice don't have the mouth parts to
deal with anything other than already rotten
timber or very soft fresh plant material.

Correct.

Many woodlice in houses actually come in from outside (on shoes,
clothing, pets or walk under doors), their external population can be
exascerbated if you have large quantities of forest bark on a garden.

If there is a sudden increase in woodlice - that can suggest
investigating further.

1950s houses often have rough sawn wood, joists, directly in contact
with inner-leaf & chimney. Rough sawn is particularly vulnerable to
decay and insect attack. If woodlice can gain access to damp joists
via a chimney they can cause significant damage. Damage can be unseen
for over a decade because rain is not continuous so woodlice only get
active for limited periods and spider population increases during such
time as they are active. Any big increase bares investigation.


Andy Champ wrote...
The typical brown hairy tegeneria is originally
a cave species and loves houses. That's not the damp.

If they suddenly increase in number it can be - fed by a suddenly
elevated woodlice population.

Every generation of house has its caveats. 1950s were no exception and
damp can be an issue (ventilate, heat, fix leaks).

1950s lack cavity wall trays, PAR rounded edge timber, joist hangers,
DPC, sometimes clear cavities & correct wall tie installation,
chimney's with rain caps & trays, eaves drip trays and felt has a
finite life where it droops over open cavities, missing gutters.

The OP clearly has a ventilation problem, but also guttering should
never be allowed to leak. Pointing & joists can suffer if water is
running down a wall, and if a guttering leak is onto a lower low-
pitched 1950s roof it will just not cope. Many 1950s had lower roofs
at 17-19 degree pitch which subjects sarking felt to heavy wind driven
rain loading if a gutter "dumps" onto them.

What the OP tackles first depends on "define guttering leak", I
suspect ventilation is #1.

"Harry Bloomfield" wrote in message
. uk...
Peter Parry brought next idea :
Except it isn't very closed, which is why there is leakage. Some
machines are much worse than others.

We are on our second washer/ condensing drier, which was preceded by a
vented drier. Neither of the w/driers leak(ed)s any substantial amount of
moisure into the air whether washing or drying, because their would be
noplace they could leak apart from when you open the doors.

The vented drier did discharge quite a bit of moisture into the room,
despite it's venting.

I have a cheap Hotpoint washer dryer.. there is no condensation in the room
while it is drying.
The only problem with it is a lack of a decent filter but its OK if you
remember to unscrew it and vac it out every 18 months.
If you don't the thermal fuse blows.