This one's at the budgeting stage right now...

Next year, I would like to build my own workshop from scratch - simple
timber construction, insulated and very very strong. I need a weird shape
to avoid planning issues (the 5m rule from house rule - I need a chopped
off 45 degree corner on one bit) so standard offerings are unlikely to be
much good. And it will be fun to build something structural from scratch

Any tips on a good source of wood that's solid, stable and inexpensive?

(I reckon I would need a few 6x2's for the floor beams, 4x2" or 3x3 for roof
and walls and something to clad the outside).

I was thinking decking timber for the structural bits and the floors as it's
fairly ubiquitous. Is there a better source and how much might I expect to
pay per metre for say 4x2" ish (so I know what to shoot for).

The whole thing will sit on brick or concrete bearer walls so I can store
long things (ladders) underneath and get good airflow. I'll be insulating
it and lining the inside walls too.

Ta

Tim

On 12 Aug, 09:54, Tim S wrote:
This one's at the budgeting stage right now...

Next year, I would like to build my own workshop from scratch - simple
timber construction, insulated and very very strong. I need a weird shape
to avoid planning issues (the 5m rule from house rule - I need a chopped

That rule doesn't exist anymore does it (at least in England)

http://www.planningportal.gov.uk/eng...315233153.html

Airsource Ltd wibbled:

On 12 Aug, 09:54, Tim S wrote:
This one's at the budgeting stage right now...

Next year, I would like to build my own workshop from scratch - simple
timber construction, insulated and very very strong. I need a weird shape
to avoid planning issues (the 5m rule from house rule - I need a chopped

That rule doesn't exist anymore does it (at least in England)

http://www.planningportal.gov.uk/eng...315233153.html

Ah. So the old "5m means deduct from the permitted development volume of
house" rule is dead then?...

That's handy. I have a square garden with the bungalow in the middle so
getting any distance from the house is a challenge.

And I can have 15m2 if I keep it 1m from any boundary or 15m2 if I have
it closer.

Seems simple and fair[1]. TBH, 15m2 is pretty large and should be more than
enough as I'll have a couple of "sentry sheds" for garden tools elsewhere.

[1] Though I'm not sure what the deal is with verandas. Seems to count
against summer houses rather. If I need one I'll make it detachable
Balconies and raised decks I can understand.

Cheers

Tim

On Aug 12, 10:56*am, Tim S wrote:
Airsource Ltd wibbled:

On 12 Aug, 09:54, Tim S wrote:
This one's at the budgeting stage right now...

Next year, I would like to build my own workshop from scratch - simple
timber construction, insulated and very very strong. I need a weird shape
to avoid planning issues (the 5m rule from house rule - I need a chopped

That rule doesn't exist anymore does it (at least in England)

http://www.planningportal.gov.uk/eng...315233153.html

Ah. So the old "5m means deduct from the permitted development volume of
house" rule is dead then?...

That's handy. I have a square garden with the bungalow in the middle so
getting any distance from the house is a challenge.

And I can have 15m2 if I keep it 1m from any boundary or 15m2 if I have
it closer.

Seems simple and fair[1]. TBH, 15m2 is pretty large and should be more than
enough as I'll have a couple of "sentry sheds" for garden tools elsewhere..

[1] Though I'm not sure what the deal is with verandas. Seems to count
against summer houses rather. If I need one I'll make it detachable
Balconies and raised decks I can understand.

Cheers

Tim

From memory, the new rules are even more relaxed. You best check on
the planning portal but believe that the size is not related to
distance from the boundary but is something like 50% of ther garden!!
The distance from the boundary does impact height though and whether
building regs is also required.

thanks

Lee.

Tim S wrote:

Seems simple and fair[1]. TBH, 15m2 is pretty large and should be more than
enough as I'll have a couple of "sentry sheds" for garden tools elsewhere.

1st rule of sheds / workshops: they are never big enough!

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

Tim S wrote:
This one's at the budgeting stage right now...

Next year, I would like to build my own workshop from scratch - simple
timber construction, insulated and very very strong. I need a weird shape
to avoid planning issues (the 5m rule from house rule - I need a chopped
off 45 degree corner on one bit) so standard offerings are unlikely to be
much good. And it will be fun to build something structural from scratch

Any tips on a good source of wood that's solid, stable and inexpensive?

(I reckon I would need a few 6x2's for the floor beams, 4x2" or 3x3 for roof
and walls and something to clad the outside).

I was thinking decking timber for the structural bits and the floors as it's
fairly ubiquitous. Is there a better source and how much might I expect to
pay per metre for say 4x2" ish (so I know what to shoot for).

I used 3x2 framing on the last one I did, with 19mm shiplap on the
outside, and 12mm ply lining - that was massively over engineered and
very strong. I used 4x2 for the ridge beam and the floor bearers (but I
had lots of pad bricks on a slab).

http://www.internode.co.uk/workshop/

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

"Tim S" wrote in message
.. .
This one's at the budgeting stage right now...

Next year, I would like to build my own workshop from scratch - simple
timber construction, insulated and very very strong. I need a weird shape
to avoid planning issues (the 5m rule from house rule - I need a chopped
off 45 degree corner on one bit) so standard offerings are unlikely to be
much good. And it will be fun to build something structural from scratch


Any tips on a good source of wood that's solid, stable and inexpensive?

(I reckon I would need a few 6x2's for the floor beams, 4x2" or 3x3 for
roof
and walls and something to clad the outside).

I was thinking decking timber for the structural bits and the floors as
it's
fairly ubiquitous. Is there a better source and how much might I expect to
pay per metre for say 4x2" ish (so I know what to shoot for).

The whole thing will sit on brick or concrete bearer walls so I can store
long things (ladders) underneath and get good airflow. I'll be insulating
it and lining the inside walls too.


The planning rules have recently been relaxed. It would be well worth your
while going and talking to the planners before you go any further.

Peter Crosland

On 12 Aug, 09:54, Tim S wrote:
This one's at the budgeting stage right now...

Next year, I would like to build my own workshop from scratch - simple
timber construction, insulated and very very strong. I need a weird shape
to avoid planning issues (the 5m rule from house rule - I need a chopped
off 45 degree corner on one bit) so standard offerings are unlikely to be
much good. And it will be fun to build something structural from scratch

Any tips on a good source of wood that's solid, stable and inexpensive?

(I reckon I would need a few 6x2's for the floor beams, 4x2" or 3x3 for roof
and walls and something to clad the outside).

I was thinking decking timber for the structural bits and the floors as it's
fairly ubiquitous. Is there a better source and how much might I expect to
pay per metre for say 4x2" ish (so I know what to shoot for).

The whole thing will sit on brick or concrete bearer walls so I can store
long things (ladders) underneath and get good airflow. I'll be insulating
it and lining the inside walls too.

Ta

Tim

Tim
There was a query here on the 7th August on "Concrete base -
reinforcement" to which I gave a fairly extensive reply on shed
building based on 30 plus years of maintaining and building sheds.
That may be of use to you.

I did get a hard time from a similarly aged friend recently for my
over-engineering on the grounds that he wanted his structure to last
the rest of his possible occupation of that house and beyond that he
didn't care. He did argue quite logically that he wasn't building a
shed for 2 generations hence !

Rob

John Rumm wibbled:

Tim S wrote:

Seems simple and fair[1]. TBH, 15m2 is pretty large and should be more
than enough as I'll have a couple of "sentry sheds" for garden tools
elsewhere.

1st rule of sheds / workshops: they are never big enough!


Can I add a cellar?

Talking of which, someone once told me that subterranian buildings didn't
need planning permission. Wonder if that was an urban myth?...

John Rumm wibbled:

I used 3x2 framing on the last one I did, with 19mm shiplap on the
outside, and 12mm ply lining - that was massively over engineered and
very strong. I used 4x2 for the ridge beam and the floor bearers (but I
had lots of pad bricks on a slab).

http://www.internode.co.uk/workshop/


Nice

Rob G wibbled:



Tim
There was a query here on the 7th August on "Concrete base -
reinforcement" to which I gave a fairly extensive reply on shed
building based on 30 plus years of maintaining and building sheds.
That may be of use to you.

I did get a hard time from a similarly aged friend recently for my
over-engineering on the grounds that he wanted his structure to last
the rest of his possible occupation of that house and beyond that he
didn't care. He did argue quite logically that he wasn't building a
shed for 2 generations hence !

Rob

Found it - that was very interesting - thanks Rob.

Cheers

Tim

On Wed, 12 Aug 2009 21:50:46 +0100, Tim S wrote:

John Rumm wibbled:

I used 3x2 framing on the last one I did, with 19mm shiplap on the
outside, and 12mm ply lining - that was massively over engineered and
very strong. I used 4x2 for the ridge beam and the floor bearers (but I
had lots of pad bricks on a slab).

http://www.internode.co.uk/workshop/


Nice

Yes, that's brilliant!

As for a shed never being big enough: I built one of 3x2.4m (it fits
against the existing brick shed of the same size), so doubled my space. Get
it sorted out and tidy - my cousin turns up with her old kitchen units and
fills the place! I couldn't refuse and they're better than mine, but then a
couple of friends turn up and are staying intermittently for several weeks,
so I can't move the units.

I need another shed...
--
Peter.
The head of a pin will hold more angels if
it's been flattened with an angel-grinder.

On 12 Aug, 21:44, Tim S wrote:
Can I add a cellar?

Talking of which, someone once told me that subterranian buildings didn't
need planning permission. Wonder if that was an urban myth?...

Yes.

http://www.getsurrey.co.uk/news/s/20...ning_refu sal

John

On 12 Aug, 14:10, John Rumm wrote:
Tim S wrote:
This one's at the budgeting stage right now...

Next year, I would like to build my own workshop from scratch - simple
timber construction, insulated and very very strong. I need a weird shape
to avoid planning issues (the 5m rule from house rule - I need a chopped
off 45 degree corner on one bit) so standard offerings are unlikely to be
much good. And it will be fun to build something structural from scratch

Any tips on a good source of wood that's solid, stable and inexpensive?

(I reckon I would need a few 6x2's for the floor beams, 4x2" or 3x3 for roof
and walls and something to clad the outside).

I was thinking decking timber for the structural bits and the floors as it's
fairly ubiquitous. Is there a better source and how much might I expect to
pay per metre for say 4x2" ish (so I know what to shoot for).

I used 3x2 framing on the last one I did, with 19mm shiplap on the
outside, and 12mm ply lining - that was massively over engineered and
very strong. I used 4x2 for the ridge beam and the floor bearers (but I
had lots of pad bricks on a slab).

http://www.internode.co.uk/workshop/

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| * * * * *Internode Ltd - *http://www.internode.co.uk* * * * * *|
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| * * * *John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk * * * * * * *|
\================================================= ================/

Hi John
Good to see some detailing photos - that was quite a major garden
reconstruction operation. Well done. I wish I could find an excuse
to have a go with a mini digger !

Couple of comments though on the workshop construction - and I will
admit that these are thoughts based on the shed lasting a lifetime or
more. I made efforts to make sure that the insulation didn't touch
the inner side of the weatherboarding and ensure that there was the
possibility of air circulation on the inside of the wood and roof
lining. And I'm also sensitive about condensation within the
insulation and correspondingly put a dpm under the lining (OSB in my
case). The moisture level won't be as high as in a house but then the
not-in-use temperature will be lower.

Just out of interest, why did you go for a wooden floor as I've always
avoided them having seen too many rotten ones?

Rob

Rob G wrote:
On 12 Aug, 14:10, John Rumm wrote:

I used 3x2 framing on the last one I did, with 19mm shiplap on the
outside, and 12mm ply lining - that was massively over engineered and
very strong. I used 4x2 for the ridge beam and the floor bearers (but I
had lots of pad bricks on a slab).

http://www.internode.co.uk/workshop/


Hi John
Good to see some detailing photos - that was quite a major garden
reconstruction operation. Well done. I wish I could find an excuse
to have a go with a mini digger !

It sounds like you have an imagination problem, rather than a lack of a
task for a digger problem! There is always a reason if you try hard
enough! ;-) (the real skill is getting SWMBO to suggest it!)

(especially if you go for the small ones - 700 - 850kg class. You can
get them pretty much anywhere). ;-)

(diggers - just one of those things that have to be done!)

Couple of comments though on the workshop construction - and I will
admit that these are thoughts based on the shed lasting a lifetime or
more. I made efforts to make sure that the insulation didn't touch
the inner side of the weatherboarding and ensure that there was the
possibility of air circulation on the inside of the wood and roof

Yup ideally a visqueen sheet or something could have gone there - or
probably better still something breathable. I worked on the principle
that using expanded poly it was going to be fairly impermeable anyway.

lining. And I'm also sensitive about condensation within the
insulation and correspondingly put a dpm under the lining (OSB in my
case). The moisture level won't be as high as in a house but then the
not-in-use temperature will be lower.

I added some ventilation and heating as well - the latter controlled on
a stat set at a low temperature. That stops tools ect getting damp.

Just out of interest, why did you go for a wooden floor as I've always
avoided them having seen too many rotten ones?

Mostly for comfort of working. It was intended to be a workshop rather
than just a shed, so something that was warmer and smooth underfoot
seemed attractive. I also made sure the whole structure was off the
floor so air could circulate under it. That meant the floor also kept
the draft out! The smooth surface made sweeping up easy as well -
although bag of latex SLC would probably fix ordinary concrete in that
respect.

As to longevity, I may never find out since I don't live there any more.
I expect it will last better than most though!

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On Wed, 12 Aug 2009 09:54:55 +0100, Tim S wrote:

This one's at the budgeting stage right now...

Next year, I would like to build my own workshop from scratch - simple
timber construction, insulated and very very strong. I need a weird shape
to avoid planning issues (the 5m rule from house rule - I need a chopped
off 45 degree corner on one bit) so standard offerings are unlikely to be
much good. And it will be fun to build something structural from scratch

It's a lot of fun :-)

How big is this thing going to be? If it's a sizeable workshop I'd be very
tempted to go for a concrete floor and lower walls (i.e. up a couple of
feet from ground level) - point noted about ladder storage, however. I
just like solid floors in workshops, not something that might be prone to
vibration or moisture issues.

(I reckon I would need a few 6x2's for the floor beams, 4x2" or 3x3 for
roof and walls and something to clad the outside).

Typical on this side of the Pond is pretty much that - something
substantial for the floor (2x6 or 2x8 with 1/2" or 3/4" board atop, or
solid concrete) then 2x4 for the framing / roof with 3/8" or 1/2" particle
board on top of that. Cover with some sort of moisture barrier and then
some sort of wood / vinyl / aluminium cladding over the top. You can
insulate from the inside between the framework and then clad that in
whatever you fancy, too.

Untreated 2x4's in 8' lengths are less than $2 here at the local DIY shed
- which is what, about £1.20? (be intersting to know how that does
compare to UK price at the Sheds, actually)

5'x8' 3/8" board works out at less than £5 - I don't recall how much more
the thicker stuff is.

Insulation's dirt cheap for a big roll. It's the moisture barrier
material, cladding on top of that, and whatever you cover the roof with
which pushes the cost up.

Personally I can't wait to tear our old double garage down and rebuild
it, and also get stuck into fixing our barn (one of those classic old US
arched-roof affairs). I've got a floor to raise in our back porch and a
deck to build first, though ;-)

cheers

Jules

Jules coughed up some electrons that declared:

It's a lot of fun :-)




How big is this thing going to be?

About 15m2 +/- (we won't be too pedantic about planning - as long as it
looks about right to the neighbours...)

If it's a sizeable workshop I'd be very
tempted to go for a concrete floor and lower walls (i.e. up a couple of
feet from ground level) - point noted about ladder storage, however. I
just like solid floors in workshops, not something that might be prone to
vibration or moisture issues.

(I reckon I would need a few 6x2's for the floor beams, 4x2" or 3x3 for
roof and walls and something to clad the outside).

Typical on this side of the Pond is pretty much that - something
substantial for the floor (2x6 or 2x8 with 1/2" or 3/4" board atop, or
solid concrete) then 2x4 for the framing / roof with 3/8" or 1/2" particle
board on top of that. Cover with some sort of moisture barrier and then
some sort of wood / vinyl / aluminium cladding over the top. You can
insulate from the inside between the framework and then clad that in
whatever you fancy, too.

Untreated 2x4's in 8' lengths are less than $2 here at the local DIY shed
- which is what, about £1.20? (be intersting to know how that does
compare to UK price at the Sheds, actually)

Planed definately costs more in 2x4 (having bought that recently). Don;t see
so much rough sawn in my local places, unless it's really crap gardening
grade stuff.

5'x8' 3/8" board works out at less than £5 - I don't recall how much more
the thicker stuff is.

Insulation's dirt cheap for a big roll. It's the moisture barrier
material, cladding on top of that, and whatever you cover the roof with
which pushes the cost up.

I was considering celotex, but it's probably cheaper to use bigger wood to
compensate for glass wool being a poorer insulator. Or use polystyrene.

Personally I can't wait to tear our old double garage down and rebuild
it, and also get stuck into fixing our barn (one of those classic old US
arched-roof affairs). I've got a floor to raise in our back porch and a
deck to build first, though ;-)

Cool - enjoy

John Rumm wibbled:


I used 3x2 framing on the last one I did, with 19mm shiplap on the
outside, and 12mm ply lining - that was massively over engineered and
very strong. I used 4x2 for the ridge beam and the floor bearers (but I
had lots of pad bricks on a slab).

http://www.internode.co.uk/workshop/


Ok - Decking joists 4x2" can be had for 1.30 ish per metre inc VAT and 6x2"
for about 2 quid/m online.

Flooring (decking boards) is also cheap.

But - can I ask how much 19mm shiplap can be had for at a sensible price?
Wickes is quoting about 15 quid / m2 and as you can imagine, the wall area
is high so that adds up to more than the rest of the wood.

A 15m2 2.5m high "shed" to any random design:

So far, I can build a frame and base for about £351 over engineered with
4x2" walls and roof and 6x2" floor, all assuming 400mm spacing (not
allowing wastage and braces and fiddly bits).

Floor covering costs about another £294. But the wall cladding is reckoning
up at about £750!!

And I haven't costed in the ply for the roof and internal cladding nor the
auxillary bits like felt, plastic barrier and insulation...

I think I'm right that decking joists and decking board floor is the way to
go for cheapness and solidity but I need a better estimate and source for
my cladding or it's all getting a bit expensive.

Recommendations? I hate buying wood - so much effort needed to avoid botty
piracy.

Cheers

Tim

Tim S wibbled:


I think I'm right that decking joists and decking board floor is the way
to go for cheapness and solidity but I need a better estimate and source
for my cladding or it's all getting a bit expensive.

Recommendations? I hate buying wood - so much effort needed to avoid botty
piracy.

Cheers

Tim

Oh - just found some:

http://timberclick.com/shop-south-ea...atterns-3.html

More like £9.50/m2 for 16mm tanalised. That's better

On Thu, 13 Aug 2009 20:17:33 +0100, Tim S wrote:

Jules coughed up some electrons that declared:

It's a lot of fun :-)




How big is this thing going to be?

About 15m2 +/- (we won't be too pedantic about planning - as long as it
looks about right to the neighbours...)

Hmm, no plans to ever sell? I had the impression that not dotting the i's
and crossing the t's was a big no-no these days in the UK because it
could really mess things up at selling time... CBW, though.

Untreated 2x4's in 8' lengths are less than $2 here at the local DIY
shed - which is what, about £1.20? (be intersting to know how that
does compare to UK price at the Sheds, actually)

Planed definately costs more in 2x4 (having bought that recently). Don;t
see so much rough sawn in my local places, unless it's really crap
gardening grade stuff.

Yeah, this is all planed. The good stuff's pretty good, the downside is
that there are always a few horrors that creep into the pile (enormous
knots or really warped boards), so it pays to sort through at the store
and get a good load.

I found a label on one of my off-cuts, but it wasn't exactly a lot of
help. Poking around the Shed's website suggests it's probably Southern
Yellow Pine, but that's by no means definite.

(Oh, and FYI the pressure-treated 2x4's are $2.97 for an 8' length at the
nearby Shed - so £1.80 or thereabouts. I might be tempted to use some of
that around a doorway where it might catch some rain / moisture
occasionally, although it's probably just as easy to treat the normal
stuff with some brush-on gloop after building)

Insulation's dirt cheap for a big roll. It's the
moisture barrier
material, cladding on top of that, and whatever you cover the roof with
which pushes the cost up.

I was considering celotex, but it's probably cheaper to use bigger wood
to compensate for glass wool being a poorer insulator. Or use
polystyrene.

I thought polystyrene wasn't supposed to be as good as glass wool,
just a bit easier to work with - BICBW. (I don't have much in the
'surplus' pile to compare with - the poly stuff that I have laying around
is indeed worse than the glass wool I have, but then it's also only around
1 1/2" deep, compared to the glass wool at about 3 1/2")

I think blown paper fibre's actually supposed to be quite good on the
price/performance front and has a nice recycling feel to it, but having
lots of paper in the walls of a workshop makes me a bit jittery.

Personally I can't wait to tear our old double garage down and rebuild
it, and also get stuck into fixing our barn (one of those classic old
US arched-roof affairs). I've got a floor to raise in our back porch
and a deck to build first, though ;-)

Cool - enjoy

The barn's going to be interesting - 40' up to the roofline, plus I need
to do some work on the frame behind the end wall, and shoring that much
weight up while working on it will be fun.

The new porch floor and deck are trivial in comparison... which might
actually be a key to good DIY - always have a harder project lined up so
that the current one seems really easy ;-)

cheers

Jules

Jules coughed up some electrons that declared:

On Thu, 13 Aug 2009 20:17:33 +0100, Tim S wrote:

Jules coughed up some electrons that declared:

It's a lot of fun :-)




How big is this thing going to be?

About 15m2 +/- (we won't be too pedantic about planning - as long as it
looks about right to the neighbours...)

Hmm, no plans to ever sell? I had the impression that not dotting the i's
and crossing the t's was a big no-no these days in the UK because it
could really mess things up at selling time... CBW, though.

No I don't really care about a shed. If the buyer objects, I'll knock it
down for them - difference in price between a house with a shed and without
is likely negligable. Probably find a sudden attitude shift then. Anyway -
after a few years, planning contraventions become moot (It's about 4 years
I think under English law, after which they can't touch you. Might be a
different figure - depends on the type of contravention but in either case,
I'll be in the clear.)

Buyers here fall into 2 groups. One group is pragmatic and is certainly not
going to worry about technical flaws in a shed. The other group panicks
whenever their solicitor wibbles. For them there is indemnity insurance or
just tell them to go away.

Untreated 2x4's in 8' lengths are less than $2 here at the local DIY
shed - which is what, about £1.20? (be intersting to know how that
does compare to UK price at the Sheds, actually)

Planed definately costs more in 2x4 (having bought that recently). Don;t
see so much rough sawn in my local places, unless it's really crap
gardening grade stuff.

Yeah, this is all planed. The good stuff's pretty good, the downside is
that there are always a few horrors that creep into the pile (enormous
knots or really warped boards), so it pays to sort through at the store
and get a good load.

B&Q will reliably sell you all warped timber.

I found a label on one of my off-cuts, but it wasn't exactly a lot of
help. Poking around the Shed's website suggests it's probably Southern
Yellow Pine, but that's by no means definite.

I've got some "yellow pine" for my shelves. It was pretty good stuff. Don't
know if there's "yellow pine" and "yellow pine".

(Oh, and FYI the pressure-treated 2x4's are $2.97 for an 8' length at the
nearby Shed - so £1.80 or thereabouts. I might be tempted to use some of
that around a doorway where it might catch some rain / moisture
occasionally, although it's probably just as easy to treat the normal
stuff with some brush-on gloop after building)

Insulation's dirt cheap for a big roll. It's the
moisture barrier
material, cladding on top of that, and whatever you cover the roof with
which pushes the cost up.

I was considering celotex, but it's probably cheaper to use bigger wood
to compensate for glass wool being a poorer insulator. Or use
polystyrene.

I thought polystyrene wasn't supposed to be as good as glass wool,
just a bit easier to work with - BICBW. (I don't have much in the
'surplus' pile to compare with - the poly stuff that I have laying around
is indeed worse than the glass wool I have, but then it's also only around
1 1/2" deep, compared to the glass wool at about 3 1/2")

I think blown paper fibre's actually supposed to be quite good on the
price/performance front and has a nice recycling feel to it, but having
lots of paper in the walls of a workshop makes me a bit jittery.

Wool's an option too - Ireland's knocking out loads of sheep's wool in
insulation format. I think it's partly a way to get rid of the stuff that's
too rough for clothing - but it's good good attributes. Doesn't support
combustion readily, non irritant, about the same U value as glass wool.

If I were using glass wool in a house, I'd use sheep's wool instead. As it
happens, I'll probably need to use celotex for space reasons - and glass
wool is less of a problem on a shed (outside).

Personally I can't wait to tear our old double garage down and rebuild
it, and also get stuck into fixing our barn (one of those classic old
US arched-roof affairs). I've got a floor to raise in our back porch
and a deck to build first, though ;-)

Cool - enjoy

The barn's going to be interesting - 40' up to the roofline, plus I need
to do some work on the frame behind the end wall, and shoring that much
weight up while working on it will be fun.

That's far too much fun to be having! I assume you have acres?

The new porch floor and deck are trivial in comparison... which might
actually be a key to good DIY - always have a harder project lined up so
that the current one seems really easy ;-)

cheers

Jules

Good luck with it all.

Cheers

Tim

On Thu, 13 Aug 2009 23:40:40 +0100, Tim S wrote:
B&Q will reliably sell you all warped timber.

At a premuim, no doubt. I don't have very fond memories of B&Q :-)

I've got some "yellow pine" for my shelves. It was pretty good stuff. Don't
know if there's "yellow pine" and "yellow pine".

It certainly seems strong enough - I've not tested it to destruction, but
a 2x4 of the stuff takes a lot of abuse. Throw enough of them into a
frame for a building and I don't think the side loading's evr a problem -
although I'm not sure I'd want to try a multi-storey building out of the
stuff (I bet it's quite explosive if given enough compression!)

Wool's an option too - Ireland's knocking out loads of sheep's wool in
insulation format. I think it's partly a way to get rid of the stuff
that's too rough for clothing - but it's good good attributes. Doesn't
support combustion readily, non irritant, about the same U value as
glass wool.

That's an interesting one. Wonder what the longevity's like (particularly
if it ever absorbs moisture - I suppose it's not much good if it
contracts and doesn't return to form once it dries out). Blown paper
concerns me similarly - sounds good, but I'm just not sure what it'll be
like 20 or 30 years down the line. Tried-and-tested might well be worth it
just for peace of mind.

The barn's going to be interesting - 40' up to the roofline, plus I
need to do some work on the frame behind the end wall, and shoring that
much weight up while working on it will be fun.

That's far too much fun to be having! I assume you have acres?

Not much - the old dear who used to own this place had sold nearly all of
the land off, so we've just got a couple of acres of trees and similar
for lawn. It's nice to have the out-buildings though (even if some of
them do need some serious attention) and that sort of space is a useful
amount for the kids to play in without being a major chore to maintain.
They won't let folk build new property on less than 6 acres where we are,
so we know we're not going to get anyone doing anything major right next
door or anything.

Good luck with it all.

Ta - you too. I'm following your exploits (a bit haphazardly) with
interest :-)

cheers

Jules

"Tim S" wrote in message
.. .

I think I'm right that decking joists and decking board floor is the way
to
go for cheapness and solidity

Mine is two layers of ply (18 mm on top, 9 mm underneath) with layer of 1"
polystyrene glued between.
It is incredibly stiff and I am sure it cost less than using decking stuff.
The roof is the same.


The internal walls are shuttering ply (on 3x2 battens), for now it is clad
with 6 mm wbp as it was cheap and I couldn't find any cheap cladding.

"Tim S" wrote in message
.. .
Rob G wibbled:



Tim
There was a query here on the 7th August on "Concrete base -
reinforcement" to which I gave a fairly extensive reply on shed
building based on 30 plus years of maintaining and building sheds.
That may be of use to you.

I did get a hard time from a similarly aged friend recently for my
over-engineering on the grounds that he wanted his structure to last
the rest of his possible occupation of that house and beyond that he
didn't care. He did argue quite logically that he wasn't building a
shed for 2 generations hence !

Rob

Found it - that was very interesting - thanks Rob.

Cheers

Tim

Check out the one about 'why wooden' as well :-)

I am still considering going with a block wall because of the relative
costs, and the problems getting decent timber.

Cheers

Dave R

David WE Roberts wibbled:


Check out the one about 'why wooden' as well :-)

I am still considering going with a block wall because of the relative
costs, and the problems getting decent timber.

Cheers

Dave R

I suppose that's a good point - I didn't see anything in the "law" that
suggested garden outbuildings were limited to wood.

Makes some sense building one out of brick, say. More fireproof and a bit
more initimidating for the pikeys, if the door and windows are solid...

Cheers

Tim

"Tim S" wrote in message
.. .
David WE Roberts wibbled:


Check out the one about 'why wooden' as well :-)

I am still considering going with a block wall because of the relative
costs, and the problems getting decent timber.

Cheers

Dave R

I suppose that's a good point - I didn't see anything in the "law" that
suggested garden outbuildings were limited to wood.

Makes some sense building one out of brick, say. More fireproof and a bit
more initimidating for the pikeys, if the door and windows are solid...

Cheers

Tim

More to the point, the limitation on 15 sq metres within 0.5m of the
boundary does not apply for buildings made of 'substantially non-inflammable
materials'. I am going to check, but assume that blockwork would be
considered substantially non-inflammable.

I assume that this is to avoid a major fire risk to fences and neighbouring
buildings.

I am not too concerned about high level security - the crime rate is quite
low around here - I am mainly concerned with 'bangs per buck' and ease of
construction plus conforming to any building restrictions. Being able to go
over 15 sq metres within 0.5m of the boundary may be a strong argument for
blockwork. The garden is fairly small and plan #1 has already been abandoned
because the shed all the way across the bottom of the garden would be too
intrusive, especially with the 1m gap from the rear fence.

One attraction of blocks is the low ongoing maintenance. Timber is
attractive but does need regular treatment to avoid rot.

It may also be easier to hang shelves, benches etc. from a block wall.

This is now making me wonder if I will need pillars to strengthen the wall -
or if a 5m run of single block will be O.K.

Nothing is easy ;-)

Cheers

Dave R

David WE Roberts coughed up some electrons that declared:


"Tim S" wrote in message
.. .
David WE Roberts wibbled:


Check out the one about 'why wooden' as well :-)

I am still considering going with a block wall because of the relative
costs, and the problems getting decent timber.

Cheers

Dave R

I suppose that's a good point - I didn't see anything in the "law" that
suggested garden outbuildings were limited to wood.

Makes some sense building one out of brick, say. More fireproof and a bit
more initimidating for the pikeys, if the door and windows are solid...

Cheers

Tim

More to the point, the limitation on 15 sq metres within 0.5m of the
boundary does not apply for buildings made of 'substantially
non-inflammable materials'. I am going to check, but assume that blockwork
would be considered substantially non-inflammable.

I assume that this is to avoid a major fire risk to fences and
neighbouring buildings.

I am not too concerned about high level security - the crime rate is quite
low around here - I am mainly concerned with 'bangs per buck' and ease of
construction plus conforming to any building restrictions. Being able to
go over 15 sq metres within 0.5m of the boundary may be a strong argument
for blockwork. The garden is fairly small and plan #1 has already been
abandoned because the shed all the way across the bottom of the garden
would be too intrusive, especially with the 1m gap from the rear fence.

One attraction of blocks is the low ongoing maintenance. Timber is
attractive but does need regular treatment to avoid rot.

It may also be easier to hang shelves, benches etc. from a block wall.

Agree totally


This is now making me wonder if I will need pillars to strengthen the wall
- or if a 5m run of single block will be O.K.

The house I grew up in had a standalone brick garage about that length - or
perhaps a little longer. That was single brick wall with one double
thickness butress about halfway along each long side.

That didn't fall over.

You can always have the butresses external to save messing up a nice
internal wall.

I don't honestly know if you *need* them for 5m.

Cheers

Tim

Nothing is easy ;-)

Ha - Taking me 3 days to do a one day job of fitting conduit in the new
kitchen and insulating and plasterboarding the bay windows... Mind you, I
do have about 36 drops of conduit plus interlinks! And some of that is in
carefully bent round 20 and 25mm (all the stuff that goes though the bay
window ceilings up into the roof void above plus cooker drop). Utter bitch
of a job and I;m all covered in expanding foam having emptied 2.5 gun cans
up there to seal the celotex in. Cloths, hair, shoes, floor - everywhere...

But I wore gloves this time so I can still move my fingers.

If they still had factory apprentices these days, I'm sure that one of the
initiations would be to fill the lad's underpants with a can of Siroflex's
finest.

Tim S wrote:

But I wore gloves this time so I can still move my fingers.

Have you tried a can of the foam solvent? very good at getting it off
stuff while still wet.




--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember Tim S saying
something like:

This is now making me wonder if I will need pillars to strengthen the wall
- or if a 5m run of single block will be O.K.

The house I grew up in had a standalone brick garage about that length - or
perhaps a little longer. That was single brick wall with one double
thickness butress about halfway along each long side.

The most impressive single-skin brick garage I saw was actually a truck
shed, of about 30' long by 30' wide and two stories empty space. Not a
buttress in sight and...

That didn't fall over.

It had been up for many years, too. Probably fallen over now, mind.

In message , Grimly
Curmudgeon writes
We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember Tim S saying
something like:

This is now making me wonder if I will need pillars to strengthen the wall
- or if a 5m run of single block will be O.K.

The house I grew up in had a standalone brick garage about that length - or
perhaps a little longer. That was single brick wall with one double
thickness butress about halfway along each long side.

The most impressive single-skin brick garage I saw was actually a truck
shed, of about 30' long by 30' wide and two stories empty space. Not a
buttress in sight and...

That didn't fall over.

It had been up for many years, too. Probably fallen over now, mind.

More likely a grade II listed building



--
geoff

On Mon, 17 Aug 2009 23:04:05 +0100, Grimly Curmudgeon wrote:

We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold.

Ha - I'm halfway through reading that at the mo. Forgotten how good it
is/was too, although I think I still prefer Withnail...

The most impressive single-skin brick garage I saw was actually a truck
shed, of about 30' long by 30' wide and two stories empty space. Not a
buttress in sight and...

Heck. Must have had some serious foundation to it...

I don't remember any buttresses on the brick vehicle sheds on any of the
farms that any of my dad's family had, either. They they weren't two
storeys, but must have been 60' or more long. I remember my cousin
levelling the end of one when backing a trailer in... :-)

cheers

Jules

We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember Jules
saying something like:

The most impressive single-skin brick garage I saw was actually a truck
shed, of about 30' long by 30' wide and two stories empty space. Not a
buttress in sight and...

Heck. Must have had some serious foundation to it...

I recall a local telling me the bloke who built it was a notorious
cheapskate, so I doubt the founds were expensive. Struck me as utterly
pointless, when for much less cost and time he could have easily stuck
some RSJs vertically in concrete, like every other agribuilding near him
and had a much more sturdy construction. I suspect it was a case of
bricks was all he had, so that's all he used.
What gave me pause and a sharp intake of breath was the sight of a
****-off engine hoist fastened to a beam running from one wall top to
another. I honestly don't know why that shed hadn't collapsed.

I don't remember any buttresses on the brick vehicle sheds on any of the
farms that any of my dad's family had, either. They they weren't two
storeys, but must have been 60' or more long. I remember my cousin
levelling the end of one when backing a trailer in... :-)

Quite so - curtain walls like that are very weak when hit.

On Tue, 18 Aug 2009 14:07:49 +0100, Grimly Curmudgeon wrote:
The most impressive single-skin brick garage I saw was actually a truck
shed, of about 30' long by 30' wide and two stories empty space. Not a
buttress in sight and...

Heck. Must have had some serious foundation to it...

I recall a local telling me the bloke who built it was a notorious
cheapskate, so I doubt the founds were expensive. Struck me as utterly
pointless, when for much less cost and time he could have easily stuck
some RSJs vertically in concrete, like every other agribuilding near him
and had a much more sturdy construction. I suspect it was a case of
bricks was all he had, so that's all he used.

Yeah, seems like an odd way of doing it. Must have been a case of him
getting a boat-load of bricks cheap off a mate, so that's what he used (I
suppose I like using what I have around rather than spending cash on new
materials - but I sure as heck wouldn't do it when it'd result in a
compromised structure)

What gave me pause and a sharp intake of breath was the sight of a
****-off engine hoist fastened to a beam running from one wall top to
another. I honestly don't know why that shed hadn't collapsed.

Ha ha! I can just picture the sharp intake of breath every time it was
used...

(Oddly enough, it's already crossed my mind that when I rebuild our garage
I want to build in some extra strength in the right places so I can put a
hoist in)

cheers

J.

Grimly Curmudgeon coughed up some electrons that declared:


I don't remember any buttresses on the brick vehicle sheds on any of the
farms that any of my dad's family had, either. They they weren't two
storeys, but must have been 60' or more long. I remember my cousin
levelling the end of one when backing a trailer in... :-)

Quite so - curtain walls like that are very weak when hit.

You could do an imaginative long shed with a single thickness
crinkle-crankle wall - those are much stronger.

Assuming one has a bit of space to waste...