Question:

What (bloody big) machine do I look for in the hire shop that will scrape,
in a violent and deadly fashion, the top couple of mm off a strong
sand/cement screed? Thinking something with carbide teeth that move about,
and a feck off big motor or petrol engine.

Got quite a large area to do. If the machine can hack its way through not
well attached cement levelling compound, all the better.

Ta

Tim


[The scenario...]

Not a happy bunny today...

The long saga of dealing with the crap that is my new kitchen floor:

Previously, on Planet Squidward:

1) I asked builders to flatten a lumpy floor. I took a load of old wooden
tiles up for them.

2) I asked if they would deal with the residual gunk under the tiles. "No -
it's not a problem - Latex gunk sticks to anything..."

3) 3 months ago, I noticed a couple of hollow sounding bits.

4) I noticed they been fobbed off with Cement/silica (Cempolay) rather than
latex (Cempolatex) by the tit in Travis Perkins.

----

Back to today:

"I know," I said - "I'll just angle grind the loose bits - quick run tound
the edge with a diamond blade - then pop the loose bit out, then repair
taht bit ready for pouring more latex this week"...

I did, and a couple of whacks with a hand bolster and the Cempolay was
coming up in 6-8mm sheets. Oh dear.

Went round and sounded the rest of teh floor. Now about 6-7 loose areas. The
bond has been shearing all overthe place.

When I looked at the layer that popped up, it contained a mm thick black
slightly greasy/rubbery/slippery (to the nail) brittle black layer of crap.

Underneath that, the sand/cement screed appears very solid and attached -
but well out of level.

I've checked into this black crap and believe it may be an asphaltic
adhesive used on wood flooring.

It's impossible to totally remove it without taking the top mm of screed
with it. Tried a big knife - no good. Scutch comb works but will take
forever. So I'm off to the hire shop tomorrow - just wanted to have a bit
more of a clue what to ask for.


Called the original builder back anyway, as an 8" wide columb of celcon
blocks holding up a door lintle are parting company with the brick wall
they are supposed to be extending. Builder has been instructed that he will
be doing this again for free, with bricks (his expense) and properly keying
them into the old wall. At least he apologied and agreed. Think I'll kick
his arse over the floor too. But I think it's better if I fix it this time.
At least my foray into Stopgap 300 and SBR screeds have resulted in other
floors that are never coming adrift...

sigh...

Tim S wrote:
Question:

What (bloody big) machine do I look for in the hire shop that will
scrape, in a violent and deadly fashion, the top couple of mm off a
strong sand/cement screed? Thinking something with carbide teeth that
move about, and a feck off big motor or petrol engine.

Got quite a large area to do. If the machine can hack its way through not
well attached cement levelling compound, all the better.

http://www.hss.com/g/6521/Single-Hea...r-Grinder.html
or
http://www.hss.com/g/6566/Hi-Speed-F...-ex-Disc-.html

Tim S wrote:
Question:

What (bloody big) machine do I look for in the hire shop that will
scrape, in a violent and deadly fashion, the top couple of mm off a
strong sand/cement screed? Thinking something with carbide teeth that
move about, and a feck off big motor or petrol engine.

Got quite a large area to do. If the machine can hack its way through
not well attached cement levelling compound, all the better.

Ta

Tim


[The scenario...]

Not a happy bunny today...

The long saga of dealing with the crap that is my new kitchen floor:

Previously, on Planet Squidward:

1) I asked builders to flatten a lumpy floor. I took a load of old
wooden tiles up for them.

2) I asked if they would deal with the residual gunk under the tiles.
"No - it's not a problem - Latex gunk sticks to anything..."

3) 3 months ago, I noticed a couple of hollow sounding bits.

4) I noticed they been fobbed off with Cement/silica (Cempolay)
rather than latex (Cempolatex) by the tit in Travis Perkins.

----

Back to today:

"I know," I said - "I'll just angle grind the loose bits - quick run
tound the edge with a diamond blade - then pop the loose bit out,
then repair taht bit ready for pouring more latex this week"...

I did, and a couple of whacks with a hand bolster and the Cempolay was
coming up in 6-8mm sheets. Oh dear.

Went round and sounded the rest of teh floor. Now about 6-7 loose
areas. The bond has been shearing all overthe place.

When I looked at the layer that popped up, it contained a mm thick
black slightly greasy/rubbery/slippery (to the nail) brittle black
layer of crap.

Underneath that, the sand/cement screed appears very solid and
attached - but well out of level.

I've checked into this black crap and believe it may be an asphaltic
adhesive used on wood flooring.

It's impossible to totally remove it without taking the top mm of
screed with it. Tried a big knife - no good. Scutch comb works but
will take forever. So I'm off to the hire shop tomorrow - just wanted
to have a bit more of a clue what to ask for.


Called the original builder back anyway, as an 8" wide columb of
celcon blocks holding up a door lintle are parting company with the
brick wall they are supposed to be extending. Builder has been
instructed that he will be doing this again for free, with bricks
(his expense) and properly keying them into the old wall. At least he
apologied and agreed. Think I'll kick his arse over the floor too.
But I think it's better if I fix it this time. At least my foray into
Stopgap 300 and SBR screeds have resulted in other floors that are
never coming adrift...

sigh...

I hate to say I told you so, but I did, on several occasions that this floor
was nothing but a bodge waiting to go wrong and it has, and it will again
and it has already cost more than a new floor, with insulation, and now you
are going to throw even more money at it for a floor scrabbler (which don't
work BTW) and yet another lot of screed that will also crack up.

Ever heard the phrase 'bite the bullet'?


Scrabblers work (slightly) on clean, soft sand/cement screed, but even then
they take days to get anything close to a few mm off, with this bituminous
layer, you are wasting your time and money as the grinding stones will clog
up within seconds.

Hire shop owners will tell you anything you want to hear, but you don't get
your money back an hour later when you drag the piece of crap back through
his door.

--
Phil L
RSRL Tipster Of The Year 2008

Phil L coughed up some electrons that declared:

I hate to say I told you so, but I did, on several occasions that this
floor was nothing but a bodge waiting to go wrong and it has, and it will
again and it has already cost more than a new floor, with insulation, and
now you are going to throw even more money at it for a floor scrabbler
(which don't work BTW) and yet another lot of screed that will also crack
up.

Eh? I said the underlying screed was sound. It's just bent where the hack
merchants in the 70's couldn't be bothered to get it level during a garage
conversion.

Ever heard the phrase 'bite the bullet'?

Erm - I've just laid 10m2 of screed with one other person. That's not
something I want to make a habit of in terms of materials alone - it was
bloody hard work, and I still had to level it off because dry screeding is
one of those things I'm never going to really get the hang of. OTOH I *am*
satisfied that is never going to go wrong structurally and it's didn't
actually cost that much - but the old screed was off for other reasons
anyway.

Even with what's been spent to date on the front room, I don't think you'd
get a new concrete sub base (lower to accommodate insulation), insulation
and screed! The skip and the materials would exceed the spend to date by
miles and I dread to imagine what the labour would be.

No, what I should have done is done the bloody thing myself (with help as
needs be) in the first place. My mistake was subbing it out. Mostly because
I actually bother to read the data sheet and do what the product says and I
can spot it when the builder's merchant is talking ********.


Scrabblers work (slightly) on clean, soft sand/cement screed, but even
then they take days to get anything close to a few mm off, with this
bituminous layer, you are wasting your time and money as the grinding
stones will clog up within seconds.

Yes, I have concluded that grinding stones aren't the answer. I need
something with teeth that performs more of a scratching action. All I need
to scratch through to the sand and I'll have something to get a bond to.

My scutch comb chisel does what is required, but on a pitifully small scale.

Hire shop owners will tell you anything you want to hear, but you don't
get your money back an hour later when you drag the piece of crap back
through his door.


That's exactly why I'm trying to get a handle on the types of available
machinery

Possibly something with something like this on:

http://www.495rental.com/images/scarifier_wheel5.jpg

or maybe

http://www.495rental.com/images/floor_carbide5.jpg

Not these:

http://www.495rental.com/images/floor_stones5.jpg
They, as you say, would clog like bitches in seconds.

Cheers

Tim

Phil L wrote:
Tim S wrote:
Question:

What (bloody big) machine do I look for in the hire shop that will
scrape, in a violent and deadly fashion, the top couple of mm off a
strong sand/cement screed? Thinking something with carbide teeth that
move about, and a feck off big motor or petrol engine.

xxxxxxx
I hate to say I told you so, but I did, on several occasions that this floor
was nothing but a bodge waiting to go wrong and it has, and it will again
and it has already cost more than a new floor, with insulation, and now you
are going to throw even more money at it for a floor scrabbler (which don't
work BTW) and yet another lot of screed that will also crack up.

Ever heard the phrase 'bite the bullet'?



Dynamite?


[g]

On 29 June, 20:19, Tim S wrote:
Question:

[etc]

Why not just give F Ball/Ardex/Mapei etc a call and ask their tech
advice people which product they recommend and stand behind for this
application*. They will all have one. This is not an unusual issue -
you just need the right product which will adhere to the bitumen
adhesive. . If the SLC is coming up OK, remove that and go over the
adhesive again with the right product which will bond to it.

[*Do not go into B&Q or Wickes and try and find advice in a leaflet or
walk into any old tile shop and ask a shop assistant].

On Jun 30, 11:12*am, Bolted wrote:
On 29 June, 20:19, Tim S wrote:

Question:

[etc]

Why not just give F Ball/Ardex/Mapei etc a call and ask their tech
advice people which product they recommend and stand behind for this
application*. *They will all have one. *This is not an unusual issue -
you just need the right product which will adhere to the bitumen
adhesive. . *If the SLC is coming up OK, remove that and go over the
adhesive again with the right product which will bond to it.

[*Do not go into B&Q or Wickes and try and find advice in a leaflet or
walk into any old tile shop and ask a shop assistant].

More or less nothing adheres to bitumen. If you want to go this
approach you'd need to blind the bitumen. Heat it till it melts and
sprinkle sand on it. Then adhesives can stick to the sand. But whether
this is a good route to take is another question.


NT

On 30 June, 13:05, NT wrote:

More or less nothing adheres to bitumen. If you want to go this
approach you'd need to blind the bitumen. Heat it till it melts and
sprinkle sand on it. Then adhesives can stick to the sand. But whether
this is a good route to take is another question.

That isn't true - maybe it was, but it isn't. For instance:
http://www.ardex.co.uk/arditex.asp

In other contexts, there are parquet adhesives which are compatible
with bitumen, for reno/reclaimed work.

On 30 June, 13:18, Bolted wrote:
On 30 June, 13:05, NT wrote:

More or less nothing adheres to bitumen. If you want to go this
approach you'd need to blind the bitumen. Heat it till it melts and
sprinkle sand on it. Then adhesives can stick to the sand. But whether
this is a good route to take is another question.

That isn't true - maybe it was, but it isn't. *For instance:http://www.ardex.co.uk/arditex.asp

In other contexts, there are parquet adhesives which are compatible
with bitumen, for reno/reclaimed work.

And add (epoxy) resin bound gravel to the list of apps - cycle lanes,
etc.

NT wrote:
On Jun 30, 11:12 am, Bolted wrote:
On 29 June, 20:19, Tim S wrote:

Question:
[etc]
Why not just give F Ball/Ardex/Mapei etc a call and ask their tech
advice people which product they recommend and stand behind for this
application*. They will all have one. This is not an unusual issue -
you just need the right product which will adhere to the bitumen
adhesive. . If the SLC is coming up OK, remove that and go over the
adhesive again with the right product which will bond to it.

[*Do not go into B&Q or Wickes and try and find advice in a leaflet or
walk into any old tile shop and ask a shop assistant].

More or less nothing adheres to bitumen. If you want to go this
approach you'd need to blind the bitumen. Heat it till it melts and
sprinkle sand on it. Then adhesives can stick to the sand. But whether
this is a good route to take is another question.


No, dont.

Rip it all up somehow.

Id suggest a kanga type thing to chisel great gouges in the floor.
As long as the new cement can get past the bitumen in enough spots -
and gouges are very good for adhesion - then a little bit here and there
wont screw things up.


NT

On Mon, 29 Jun 2009 23:59:28 +0100, Tim S wrote:
Yes, I have concluded that grinding stones aren't the answer. I need
something with teeth that performs more of a scratching action.

Roto-tiller? :-)

Bolted wibbled:

On 29 June, 20:19, Tim S wrote:
Question:

[etc]

Why not just give F Ball/Ardex/Mapei etc a call and ask their tech
advice people which product they recommend and stand behind for this
application*. They will all have one. This is not an unusual issue -
you just need the right product which will adhere to the bitumen
adhesive. . If the SLC is coming up OK, remove that and go over the
adhesive again with the right product which will bond to it.

That's a very good suggestion - I'll give them (F Ball) a call. After using
Stopgap 300, I'm sold on their stuff.


[*Do not go into B&Q or Wickes and try and find advice in a leaflet or
walk into any old tile shop and ask a shop assistant].

No indeed...

Cheers

Tim

Very interesting day...

Here's the floor:

http://photos.dionic.net/v/public/bu..._0008.jpg.html
http://photos.dionic.net/v/public/bu..._0009.jpg.html
http://photos.dionic.net/v/public/bu..._0013.jpg.html
http://photos.dionic.net/v/public/bu..._0014.jpg.html

If you zoom in, you may just be able to make out chalk contour lines in red
(low) and blue (high). Each line is +/- 2mm by laser.

Well, me and my labourer got 1/3 of it up in a couple of hours. The bond
failures are a clear case of delamination due to:

a) Odd bits - the asphaltic gunk

b) Front of fire and long bit down the middle of the room: In both cases
these are due to there being brickwork under the floor, one I guess from an
old fire hearth and the other was the old garage wall foundation and first
course of brick.

Those are rock hard and solid but the numpty back in the 70's leveled them
off with what looks like a 1:10 mix (really - it crumbles to sand between
fingers).

The rest of the floor screed in both the garage area and the old original
room seems rock hard and stable enough. Going to core drill a sample to see
what the DPM looks like (probably a bit of bitumen under the screed judging
by the other floors).

The other interesting fact is that with the crap knocked off, the floor
isn't much out of level *over all*. The bay which seem high is actually at
the same height as the hall the other end of the room.

The core problem is that the covered over centre wall is high and there are
two dips in each half of the room.

I do believe that I can make this level, completely, afterall.

So all I need is a suitable compound and preparation method.

I spoke to F Ball, RWI, BAL and a distributor in Maidstone called SIG.

We are all agreed that I should scarify the asphaltic crap to expose 75% of
screed (and obviously take out the sandy bits over the old wall).

After lots of interesting discussions, the first suggestion was to use RIW
Toughseal followed by one of BALs levellers.

Unfortunately, Toughseal, which is a 2 part epoxy, costs £586 for 20
litres(!).

So, moving on... SIG suggested that some customers had reported success on
difficult floors with either Everbuild 710 or 708 levellers. Reading teh
data sheets, both can be used in cases of rising damp if the area is
treated with "Everprufe liquid DPM" first. Ironically, this *may*
be "Blackjack 908 DPM" but I need to call them to confirm it, in which case
I expect sand blinding to be involved.

So the upshot is, I reckon I can get a flat level floor with a lot less
compound and may have found a system that is stated to work with my
problems. We'll see what their technical bloke says tomorrow.

---

Sigh - another job I should not have contracted out. I had a go at the
builder about this too (I would have forgiven him - it is a difficult
floor, but his shoddy blockwork wound me up). Long and short:

1) Don't stick levelling compound onto asphalt unless the system says you
can

2) Sound out the floor and make sure it's solid (90% is).

3) Don't claim to be using Latex when the git at TP sold you OPC/silica
which seems to be good for nothing in particular.

4) Survey the floor and plan, find the actual problem spots rather than just
sloshing useless brittle crap randomly onto an unprepared surface,
especially when your customer stated the surface was unprepared and would
have happily paid for a scarifier and an extra 1/2 days labour.

If Everbuild is the way to go, it's going to be 70 quid for a scarifier hire
for a day, about 200-250 for materials (plus DPM) and some reasonable care,
and planning to apply the compound to where it's needed most.

I don't agree that the screed needs to come up - it's absolutely rock hard,
provided any damp issues can be dealt with from the top side.

Oh well, if I have a scarifier, I'll take the chance to rip off the rubbery
tile adhesive in a couple of other rooms too for good measure...

Cheers

Tim

On 1 July, 20:15, Tim S wrote:
Very interesting day...

Here's the floor:

http://photos.dionic.net/v/public/bu..._0014.jpg.html

If you zoom in, you may just be able to make out chalk contour lines in red
(low) and blue (high). Each line is +/- 2mm by laser.

Well, me and my labourer got 1/3 of it up in a couple of hours. The bond
failures are a clear case of delamination due to:

a) Odd bits - the asphaltic gunk

b) Front of fire and long bit down the middle of the room: In both cases
these are due to there being brickwork under the floor, one I guess from an
old fire hearth and the other was the old garage wall foundation and first
course of brick.

Those are rock hard and solid but the numpty back in the 70's leveled them
off with what looks like a 1:10 mix (really - it crumbles to sand between
fingers).

The rest of the floor screed in both the garage area and the old original
room seems rock hard and stable enough. Going to core drill a sample to see
what the DPM looks like (probably a bit of bitumen under the screed judging
by the other floors).

The other interesting fact is that with the crap knocked off, the floor
isn't much out of level *over all*. The bay which seem high is actually at
the same height as the hall the other end of the room.

The core problem is that the covered over centre wall is high and there are
two dips in each half of the room.

I do believe that I can make this level, completely, afterall.

So all I need is a suitable compound and preparation method.

I spoke to F Ball, RWI, BAL and a distributor in Maidstone called SIG.

We are all agreed that I should scarify the asphaltic crap to expose 75% of
screed (and obviously take out the sandy bits over the old wall).

After lots of interesting discussions, the first suggestion was to use RIW
Toughseal followed by one of BALs levellers.

Unfortunately, Toughseal, which is a 2 part epoxy, costs 586 for 20
litres(!).

So, moving on... SIG suggested that some customers had reported success on
difficult floors with either Everbuild 710 or 708 levellers. Reading teh
data sheets, both can be used in cases of rising damp if the area is
treated with "Everprufe liquid DPM" first. Ironically, this *may*
be "Blackjack 908 DPM" but I need to call them to confirm it, in which case
I expect sand blinding to be involved.

So the upshot is, I reckon I can get a flat level floor with a lot less
compound and may have found a system that is stated to work with my
problems. We'll see what their technical bloke says tomorrow.

---

Sigh - another job I should not have contracted out. I had a go at the
builder about this too (I would have forgiven him - it is a difficult
floor, but his shoddy blockwork wound me up). Long and short:

1) Don't stick levelling compound onto asphalt unless the system says you
can

2) Sound out the floor and make sure it's solid (90% is).

3) Don't claim to be using Latex when the git at TP sold you OPC/silica
which seems to be good for nothing in particular.

4) Survey the floor and plan, find the actual problem spots rather than just
sloshing useless brittle crap randomly onto an unprepared surface,
especially when your customer stated the surface was unprepared and would
have happily paid for a scarifier and an extra 1/2 days labour.

If Everbuild is the way to go, it's going to be 70 quid for a scarifier hire
for a day, about 200-250 for materials (plus DPM) and some reasonable care,
and planning to apply the compound to where it's needed most.

I don't agree that the screed needs to come up - it's absolutely rock hard,
provided any damp issues can be dealt with from the top side.

Oh well, if I have a scarifier, I'll take the chance to rip off the rubbery
tile adhesive in a couple of other rooms too for good measure...

Cheers

Tim

Interesting - I'm surprised they weren't more bold, given you describe
it as a brittle layer rather than sticky.

I don't know how the price compares, but Ardex have a primer called
P-82 which seems to be recommended for bitumen, as do Weber with
PR-301. But with sandy areas...

What's going over the top of this lot?

Bolted wibbled:



Interesting - I'm surprised they weren't more bold, given you describe
it as a brittle layer rather than sticky.

Definately looks like 1-2mm thick asphalt rather than liquid bitumen. Funny
stuff - sometimes breaks off clean, sometimes slices off leaving a shiny
grey-black layer that seems hard but feels slightly greasy to the finger
nail.

I don't know how the price compares, but Ardex have a primer called
P-82 which seems to be recommended for bitumen, as do Weber with
PR-301.

P-82: "Use ARDEX P82 on power floated concrete, pre-cast concrete, terrazzo,
glazed ceramic and quarry tiles. ARDEX P82 can also be used to prime
hard flooring grade asphalt, rigid metal, hard and sound paint thickness
coatings, ARDEX DPM, as well as traces of sound adhesive residues on
dense impervious surfaces."

That sounds quite interesting... Ardex were one of the few manufacturers I
didn't speak to today... 67 quid for 10-20 m2 it seems - that's better than
586 quid!

PR301 looks good too - can't see a web price though...

But with sandy areas...

They're not a problem - that sand is coming off cleanly and easily to expose
solid concrete or brick depending on which of the 2 areas. Clearly a quick
level[1] off over an old wall base by someone short of cement(!). By
default I'd chuck some SBR over those bits unless the primer is rated to
cope directly. Now I've dug the 1/2" of crap off the substrate is very
solid and unfriable.

[1] "Level" in the non Euclidian sense.

What's going over the top of this lot?

20mm Marmox bedded on Mapei Keraquick, then flexible tile adhesive and
ceramic (or similar) tiles.

You clearly are very knowledgable (your Stopgap 300 recommendation was just
the ticket on th other floors) - wish I'd had someone like you the first
time... Thanks again!

The car's being fixed so I have some time to phone these folk tomorrow and
sound out these options as well as the Everbuild system.

I feel confident a solution that won;t cost a bomb is at hand

Cheers

Tim

Bolted coughed up some electrons that declared:


Interesting - I'm surprised they weren't more bold, given you describe
it as a brittle layer rather than sticky.

I don't know how the price compares, but Ardex have a primer called
P-82 which seems to be recommended for bitumen, as do Weber with
PR-301. But with sandy areas...

Also interesting...

Ball have an epoxy DPM called F76 - have you come across this? Claims to
deal with rising damp (if any) and it's not *that* expensive. There's also
Stopgap 900 which is used under F76 should the substrate be too bumpy to
coat well (that'll be the old wall base and the bit in front of the fire).

Then P131 and Stopgap 300 to top off.

Wonder why they didn't mention those yesterday - I'll ring them again and
put it too them. Need scarifying but with the ease the old crap is coming
off, taking much of the Blackjack with it, that shouldn't take long with a
suitable machine.

Ideally, I'm keen to use a system that finishes with a product I know, for
obvious reasons

Cheers

Tim

Tim S coughed up some electrons that declared:

Ball have an epoxy DPM called F76 - have you come across this? Claims to
deal with rising damp (if any) and it's not *that* expensive. There's also
Stopgap 900 which is used under F76 should the substrate be too bumpy to
coat well (that'll be the old wall base and the bit in front of the fire).

Then P131 and Stopgap 300 to top off.

Wonder why they didn't mention those yesterday - I'll ring them again and
put it too them. Need scarifying but with the ease the old crap is coming
off, taking much of the Blackjack with it, that shouldn't take long with a
suitable machine.

Ideally, I'm keen to use a system that finishes with a product I know, for
obvious reasons

OK - good news...

After a chat with F Ball, the system that they said would work is as
follows:

Scabble/scarify to take of all of the black junk;

Smooth off any very rough bits with Stopgap 900 direct to base.

2 coats of F75 (variation here on my initial theory)

P131 and Stopgap 300 as required to flatten.

They said that will cope with any damp that may be present, and stop it dead
and will be happy under an impervious covering.

Now I need to go finish cleaning the floor, take a survey of heights and
estimate materials, but initial measurements suggest 15kg F75, bag or two
of 900 and perhaps 6-8 bags of 300 and 5l P131.

All in it's shouldn't work out too bad on cost...

Cheers

Tim

Tim S wrote:
Tim S coughed up some electrons that declared:

Ball have an epoxy DPM called F76 - have you come across this?
Claims to deal with rising damp (if any) and it's not *that*
expensive. There's also Stopgap 900 which is used under F76 should
the substrate be too bumpy to coat well (that'll be the old wall
base and the bit in front of the fire).

Then P131 and Stopgap 300 to top off.

Wonder why they didn't mention those yesterday - I'll ring them
again and put it too them. Need scarifying but with the ease the old
crap is coming off, taking much of the Blackjack with it, that
shouldn't take long with a suitable machine.

Ideally, I'm keen to use a system that finishes with a product I
know, for obvious reasons

OK - good news...

After a chat with F Ball, the system that they said would work is as
follows:

Scabble/scarify to take of all of the black junk;

Smooth off any very rough bits with Stopgap 900 direct to base.

2 coats of F75 (variation here on my initial theory)

P131 and Stopgap 300 as required to flatten.

They said that will cope with any damp that may be present, and stop
it dead and will be happy under an impervious covering.

Now I need to go finish cleaning the floor, take a survey of heights
and estimate materials, but initial measurements suggest 15kg F75,
bag or two of 900 and perhaps 6-8 bags of 300 and 5l P131.

All in it's shouldn't work out too bad on cost...

Cheers

Tim

HMMmmmm.....
8 stopgap 300 @ £20 = 160
sg 900 ? = about £15
f75 = £66
p131 = £25
Scarifier = £70

Total = £336

Don't forget to add on your other initial costs regarding this floor, and
don't forget that the DPM may or may not work, for any length of time, and
it's still uninsulated :-p

Skip = 80
concrete = 150
dpm = 15
insulation = 50

Less than £300, brand new floor, dry, warm, flat, solid and above all,
cheaper.

--
Phil L
RSRL Tipster Of The Year 2008

What are arsecarrots?

Dave

On Mon, 06 Jul 2009 23:26:21 +0100, Dave wrote:

What are arsecarrots?

possibly related to bumturnips?

Phil L wibbled:


HMMmmmm.....
8 stopgap 300 @ £20 = 160

About 4 bags to get 3mm

sg 900 ? = about £15

About 10 bags, get level with this stage as far as possible.

f75 = £66

Actually looks more like 10kg needed so at least 130

p131 = £25
Scarifier = £70

Yep - with vacuum - but I can de-adhesive several other floors while I have
it.

Total = £336

Probably about right.

Don't forget to add on your other initial costs regarding this floor, and
don't forget that the DPM may or may not work, for any length of time,
and it's still uninsulated :-p

Skip = 80

I don't know where you live Phil, but round here it's more like 200 for an 8
yard.

Need about 1 yard for the screed, 3-4 yards for the concrete and assuming
75mm insularion, another 3 yards for the earth - definately an 8 yarder.

concrete = 150
dpm = 15
insulation = 50

50mm Screed?

Less than £300, brand new floor, dry, warm, flat, solid and above all,
cheaper.


I'm really not sure about that. I can at least follow my regime single
handed if I have to, but digging out concrete + extra earth, concreting and
screeding and a good coat of SG 300 because the last set of screed went
down slightly bumpy sounds like a week's worth of hired labour plus me.

I agree it would be better in an ideal world, but I do not believe it can be
done cheaper and it is a load more work. As I said, the existing concrete
is solid and most of the existing screed is well attached.

All I care about now is getting the job done and I have faith that I can get
a perfectly good result this way with fairly little physical effort.

Cheers

Tim

Jules wibbled:

On Mon, 06 Jul 2009 23:26:21 +0100, Dave wrote:

What are arsecarrots?

possibly related to bumturnips?

Like a ping****it, but more circumstantial rather than event based

Tim S wrote:
Phil L wibbled:


HMMmmmm.....
8 stopgap 300 @ £20 = 160

About 4 bags to get 3mm

sg 900 ? = about £15

About 10 bags, get level with this stage as far as possible.

f75 = £66

Actually looks more like 10kg needed so at least 130

p131 = £25
Scarifier = £70

Yep - with vacuum - but I can de-adhesive several other floors while
I have it.

Total = £336

Probably about right.

Nearer to 500 methinks

Don't forget to add on your other initial costs regarding this
floor, and don't forget that the DPM may or may not work, for any
length of time, and it's still uninsulated :-p

Skip = 80

I don't know where you live Phil, but round here it's more like 200
for an 8 yard.

£150 plus VAT here for an 8 yard, but how big is the floor? - I assume a 4
yd will easily do it

Need about 1 yard for the screed, 3-4 yards for the concrete and
assuming 75mm insularion, another 3 yards for the earth - definately
an 8 yarder.

a m3 of anything, be it concrete, earth or insulation will cover a 10m2 are
100mm deep...my guestimation of that room is about 12m2?

So if you take 200mm off, this will be about 3m3, then you add 100mm of
jablite polystyrene insulation, cover it with DPM, and order 1.5 cubes of
concrete to give a depth of 100mm - no screed required, no paint-on
chemicals and one man could easily do it in two days


concrete = 150
dpm = 15
insulation = 50

50mm Screed?

Less than £300, brand new floor, dry, warm, flat, solid and above
all, cheaper.


I'm really not sure about that. I can at least follow my regime single
handed if I have to, but digging out concrete + extra earth,
concreting and screeding and a good coat of SG 300 because the last
set of screed went down slightly bumpy sounds like a week's worth of
hired labour plus me.

I agree it would be better in an ideal world, but I do not believe it
can be done cheaper and it is a load more work. As I said, the
existing concrete is solid and most of the existing screed is well
attached.

All I care about now is getting the job done and I have faith that I
can get a perfectly good result this way with fairly little physical
effort.


Digging out concrete isn't as hard as people imagine - a 15lb sledgehammer
and a good pickaxe will have it in manageable sized lumps in a few hours,
plus a few more hours to barrow it to a skip, then a brisk rake over to get
the extra depth, and if you want to cut a few corners, you can use 75mm
insulation and 75mm of concrete, which is more than adequate, which means
less digging, less skip space, less concrete to buy, but as you appear to
have made your mind up, good luck, but I'll reiterate WRT the floor
scrabblers - they don't work

--
Phil L
RSRL Tipster Of The Year 2008

Phil L coughed up some electrons that declared:

Digging out concrete isn't as hard as people imagine - a 15lb sledgehammer
and a good pickaxe will have it in manageable sized lumps in a few hours,
plus a few more hours to barrow it to a skip, then a brisk rake over to
get the extra depth, and if you want to cut a few corners, you can use
75mm insulation and 75mm of concrete, which is more than adequate, which
means less digging, less skip space, less concrete to buy, but as you
appear to have made your mind up, good luck, but I'll reiterate WRT the
floor scrabblers - they don't work


Hi,

I have to admit, I hadn't realised that screed was optional...

Thanks for the good advice. I'm going with the plan I have because I'm
comfortable with it. If I follow every opinion, I'll end up blowing around
like a reed in the wind ;- Sure you can see my position. I don't think
your advice is invalid, but just that I'm not comfortable with it in this
situation. Next time maybe

What I should have done is to research and quantify the problem 6 months ago
to my own satisfaction instead of subbing the whole job to builders who
where far from expert in flooring matters. Given the whole picture, I might
have gone for this solution up front.

However at this stage, I'm not up to concreting (it's 21m2 BTW) such a large
area and I'm not letting another builder in the house (plasterers welcome
though ;- ) - rather live or die by my own hand this time.

Thanks for the good luck - it will succeed...

But - there will be a couple of "next times". One is the shower room floor
and the other is a possible future conservatory. Both do get new floor
slabs.

You mention that screed is optional. But I presume, not, if one is going to
stick wet underfloor heating pipes in? Or can these be buried in concrete,
assuming insulation under the concrete?

Cheers

Tim

Phil L wrote:

Big snip

but I'll reiterate WRT the floor
scrabblers - they don't work

Is this one of those machines much like a rotating vertical cylidrical
object fitted with tungsten carbide cutters on the bottom?

If so, the builders had to use one of those when the concrete arrived
for the new school classroom.
They couldn't get any water into it and it was setting as they laid it.
They spent the next 2 days trying to get the floor smooth and level.

Dave

Tim S wibbled:

Question:

What (bloody big) machine do I look for in the hire shop that will scrape,
in a violent and deadly fashion, the top couple of mm off a strong
sand/cement screed? Thinking something with carbide teeth that move about,
and a feck off big motor or petrol engine.

Got quite a large area to do. If the machine can hack its way through not
well attached cement levelling compound, all the better.

Ta

Tim


[The scenario...]

Not a happy bunny today...

The long saga of dealing with the crap that is my new kitchen floor:

Previously, on Planet Squidward:

1) I asked builders to flatten a lumpy floor. I took a load of old wooden
tiles up for them.

2) I asked if they would deal with the residual gunk under the tiles. "No
- it's not a problem - Latex gunk sticks to anything..."

3) 3 months ago, I noticed a couple of hollow sounding bits.

4) I noticed they been fobbed off with Cement/silica (Cempolay) rather
than latex (Cempolatex) by the tit in Travis Perkins.

----

Back to today:

"I know," I said - "I'll just angle grind the loose bits - quick run tound
the edge with a diamond blade - then pop the loose bit out, then repair
taht bit ready for pouring more latex this week"...

I did, and a couple of whacks with a hand bolster and the Cempolay was
coming up in 6-8mm sheets. Oh dear.

Went round and sounded the rest of teh floor. Now about 6-7 loose areas.
The bond has been shearing all overthe place.

When I looked at the layer that popped up, it contained a mm thick black
slightly greasy/rubbery/slippery (to the nail) brittle black layer of
crap.

Underneath that, the sand/cement screed appears very solid and attached -
but well out of level.

I've checked into this black crap and believe it may be an asphaltic
adhesive used on wood flooring.

It's impossible to totally remove it without taking the top mm of screed
with it. Tried a big knife - no good. Scutch comb works but will take
forever. So I'm off to the hire shop tomorrow - just wanted to have a bit
more of a clue what to ask for.

Follow up:

Hired something like one of these (in the 110V, not petrol):

http://www.brandontoolhire.co.uk/dir...?idproduct=459

(at half that price - we like our small local hire shop

It has a drum like this on:

http://www.homedepot.com/catalog/pro...6d155a_400.jpg

It's noisy, it produces more dust than even an angle grinder (though heavier
so it does settle down quicker).

But it does certainly work! We took about 95% of the asphalt crap off -
small trace patches left only and a strip round the edge where the machine
can't go. Strip round edge dealt with with a very sharp wide SDS chisel.

Machine made light work of thin old cement levelling compound - asphalt crap
took several passes but it was a pretty painless exercise and well worth
the 45 quid + VAT hire.

It was powerful enough to grind down 1cm off a high area in fairly hard
screed too.

The finish is generally flat with slight grooving. I don't see any problems
now in getting a good key for the next layer.

I did try it on the hall to see how subtle it could be on rubbery glue
residue on screed - answer - with careful control of the height knob, it is
subtle enough to scratch that off without major damage to the screed.

In the end, the hire time was expiring and I decided the very thin and non
asphaltic glue residue in the hall and other rooms was unlikely to be a
serious problem to applying floor tiles etc, so I didn't bother doing
those. If faced with that alone, something with a wire brush on would
probably be better.



Called the original builder back anyway, as an 8" wide columb of celcon
blocks holding up a door lintle are parting company with the brick wall
they are supposed to be extending.


Re-did this too. Once the acro prop was in it took all of hand effort to
remove the old blocks. The so called tying in to the old wall consisted of
exactly 2 screws protruding into the new mortar courses.

Pathetic...

I cut out some of the screed down to concrete to give a good seating to the
bottom brick, soaked the concrete in SBR twice to aid in water resistance
and primed with cement/SBR to give a good bond.

Every 1/2 brick in the end of the old wall was previously removed with an
angle grinder and SDS and the mortar cleaned off, including any exposed
frogs.

Did a new column in brick and a 3:1 sand/cement mortar (normally too strong
for regular brickwork but it's my standard for repair work like this). All
new bricks were soaked in a bucket of water and the the old brickwork
sprayed twice with a garden sprayer. I aimed for zero suckage.

Where possible new bricks were oriented so that new frog was adjacent to old
frog to give an extra mechanical bond.

Mortar was packed in medium wet until every joint was solid.

Acro came out the next morning and the brickwork is most certainly not going
anywhere... Very pleasing result... I will wager it will stand a club
hammer if allowed to cure for a week or so...

Cheers

Tim

Tim S wrote:

Hired something like one of these (in the 110V, not petrol):
http://www.brandontoolhire.co.uk/dir...?idproduct=459
(at half that price - we like our small local hire shop

In practice, even the Brandon hire shops work out at about half their
catalogue prices (and it's not like I'm a regular hirer or anything).