We've been having a new Kitchen fitted, but we needed a small amount
of building work doing first. Nothing I couldn't have done myself but
time constraints made it impractical. The Kitchen Designer introduced
us to a builder that she uses regularly. He gave us a quote with just
the total amount shown. When he handed it over he tapped me on the
arm and said that would be the price for cash, wink. No skin of my
nose really, but when I looked at his total I thought it was slightly
on the high side, though not outrageously so.

Anyway a few days later we signed the contract for the Kitchen and
given that we were spending more there than expected, we asked the
builder if there was anyway we could reduce his bill, perhaps by
taking some of the jobs back off him. He agreed that there were a few
things we could do ourselves and he would reduce his Bill accordingly.

I asked him to give us an updated quotation, unfortunately this has
never been forthcoming and furthermore, we were a little naive in
allowing him to start the work. We'd already agreed that since there
was an 8 week lead time on the Kitchen, that he could come for a day
here and there if he ever had an odd day free. He was supposed to
come a week before the Kitchen fitters in order to do the bulk of the
work. He came and blocked up an old external doorway that wasn't
needed anymore. The house is stone built and the job was so good that
you can't tell there has ever been a door there except for the stone
lintel that's still in place.
He's a friendly chap, and he and his team have done good work, but
despite asking him several times, we never got the updated quotation.
In the end, they turned up a day late to start the bulk of the work,
and only worked half a day on a couple of days that week. Then they
ended up coming back at the weekend because they were in danger of
delaying the Kitchen fitters. They came back and finished a small
amount of plastering after the bulk of the kitchen units had been
fitted. Not something I was entirely happy about given the cost of
the units.

Anyway, he's now finished his work and I still hadn't received an
updated quotation despite asking him several times. To give you some
idea, his original price was about £5700. Whenever I asked him how
much it would now cost, he just said things like "I'm not sure, I
don't have the figures but should be around 2". He said this a couple
of times and it concerned me, because he never said 2 of what. 2
apples,£2 or £2000. The way he said it, the only thing I could think
he meant was £2000 but he never said and as the job progressed I began
to realise he couldn't possibly do the work for only £2000.

Last week he rang me and finally gave me some figures. Now instead of
charging me for the work he has actually done, he's taken his original
quote and reduced it by the cost of the work he hasn't done. The
problem is that I don't think he's reduced it by anywhere near
enough. If I'd known in advance that he would only be reducing it by
this amount, I would simply have said go ahead and do the lot then, or
I might have said hold fire then while I get a comparative quote.

To give an example, one of the jobs we took back off him was to fit 4
solid oak doors and 4 solid oak door casings. We took this job back
because my Dad is a retired joiner and he likes to help us when he
can. In the end, I couldn't find solid oak doors at a price I was
prepared to pay so I ended up getting some veneered oak doors from B&Q
at a cost of £85 for three of them and £99 for the fourth. They look
good, and are very heavy even though they're not the real thing. The
builder saw the doors and I told him where we'd got them from and
why. Now when he's worked out what he's reducing his original bill
by, he's only allowed £100 per door and £150 for fitting them all,
bearing in mind that his quote was for 'solid oak doors/casings'. My
Dad and I spent all day on this job on Saturday and only managed to
install 2 doors and 3 frames, no architraves and no door furniture
yet.

Halfway through the job, he asked if I could give him £1000 for the
work they'd already completed. I know it's not ideal but I agreed
because I felt they'd done enough work to justify that amount. When
he rang last week, he asked if he could have another £1000 at the
weekend and we could settle the rest in a week or so.

OK, so here's what I did. I paid him another £1000 at the weekend,
but I also gave him a letter in which I said that the 2nd instalment
was a 'good will' gesture while we tried to come to an agreement on
his costs. I pointed out that we had never accepted his original
quote in any way and had repeatedly asked him for an updated quote. I
finished by asking him for a fully costed breakdown of the work that
he had done.
In addition, while pointing out that his approach was wrong in using
his original quote as a starting point, I did give him a list of cost
reductions that I thought would have been more realistic in using that
approach. And although I haven't told him this yet, I would be happy
to settle the matter if he accepted my proposed reductions.

Final point, he's quite a likeable chap, he does reasonably good work,
the stonework he did couldn't have been better, but he was slow to get
started and he has had to work weekends which shouldn’t' have been
needed. I know ours isn't the only job he's been looking after over
the last few weeks. Right up to his phone call, I only considered
that he'd been too busy to give me the updated costs, not that he was
being deliberately devious. Even now I'm hoping that this is still
the case and we can come to a reasonable agreement, but I have to face
up to the fact that maybe I've been a little too trusting.

So what do you think? Is there anything else I should be doing now or
should I bide my time and see how he reacts? There's no doubt in my
mind that I still owe him money, but I'm not prepared to give him any
more until we reach an agreement on the final total. I'm also
wondering where we each stand from a legal viewpoint.

For any of you who feel the need to reply suggesting how foolish I've
been, don't bother. You can't possible be as critical as I have been
on myself these last few days.

Thanks

On 22 June, 14:33, Kevin wrote:
We've been having a new Kitchen fitted, but we needed a small amount
of building work doing first. *Nothing I couldn't have done myself but
time constraints made it impractical. *The Kitchen Designer introduced
us to a builder that she uses regularly. *He gave us a quote with just
the total amount shown. *When he handed it over he tapped me on the
arm and said that would be the price for cash, wink. *No skin of my
nose really, but when I looked at his total I thought it was slightly
on the high side, though not outrageously so.

Anyway a few days later we signed the contract for the Kitchen and
given that we were spending more there than expected, we asked the
builder if there was anyway we could reduce his bill, perhaps by
taking some of the jobs back off him. *He agreed that there were a few
things we could do ourselves and he would reduce his Bill accordingly.

I asked him to give us an updated quotation, unfortunately this has
never been forthcoming and furthermore, we were a little naive in
allowing him to start the work. *We'd already agreed that since there
was an 8 week lead time on the Kitchen, that he could come for a day
here and there if he ever had an odd day free. *He was supposed to
come a week before the Kitchen fitters in order to do the bulk of the
work. *He came and blocked up an old external doorway that wasn't
needed anymore. *The house is stone built and the job was so good that
you can't tell there has ever been a door there except for the stone
lintel that's still in place.
He's a friendly chap, and he and his team have done good work, but
despite asking him several times, we never got the updated quotation.
In the end, they turned up a day late to start the bulk of the work,
and only worked half a day on a couple of days that week. *Then they
ended up coming back at the weekend because they were in danger of
delaying the Kitchen fitters. *They came back and finished a small
amount of plastering after the bulk of the kitchen units had been
fitted. *Not something I was entirely happy about given the cost of
the units.

Anyway, he's now finished his work and I still hadn't received an
updated quotation despite asking him several *times. *To give you some
idea, his original price was about £5700. *Whenever I asked him how
much it would now cost, he just said things like "I'm not sure, I
don't have the figures but should be around 2". *He said this a couple
of times and it concerned me, because he never said 2 of what. 2
apples,£2 or £2000. *The way he said it, the only thing I could think
he meant was £2000 but he never said and as the job progressed I began
to realise he couldn't possibly do the work for only £2000.

Last week he rang me and finally gave me some figures. *Now instead of
charging me for the work he has actually done, he's taken his original
quote and reduced it by the cost of the work he hasn't done. *The
problem is that I don't think he's reduced it by anywhere near
enough. *If I'd known in advance that he would only be reducing it by
this amount, I would simply have said go ahead and do the lot then, or
I might have said hold fire then while I get a comparative quote.

To give an example, one of the jobs we took back off him was to fit 4
solid oak doors and 4 solid oak door casings. *We took this job back
because my Dad is a retired joiner and he likes to help us when he
can. *In the end, I couldn't find solid oak doors at a price I was
prepared to pay so I ended up getting some veneered oak doors from B&Q
at a cost of £85 for three of them and £99 for the fourth. *They look
good, and are very heavy even though they're not the real thing. *The
builder saw the doors and I told him where we'd got them from and
why. *Now when he's worked out what he's reducing his original bill
by, he's only allowed £100 per door and £150 for fitting them all,
bearing in mind that his quote was for 'solid oak doors/casings'. *My
Dad and I spent all day on this job on Saturday and only managed to
install 2 doors and 3 frames, no architraves and no door furniture
yet.

Halfway through the job, he asked if I could give him £1000 for the
work they'd already completed. *I know it's not ideal but I agreed
because I felt they'd done enough work to justify that amount. *When
he rang last week, he asked if he could have another £1000 at the
weekend and we could settle the rest in a week or so.

OK, so here's what I did. *I paid him another £1000 at the weekend,
but I also gave him a letter in which I said that the 2nd instalment
was a 'good will' gesture while we tried to come to an agreement on
his costs. *I pointed out that we had never accepted his original
quote in any way and had repeatedly asked him for an updated quote. *I
finished by asking him for a fully costed breakdown of the work that
he had done.
In addition, while pointing out that his approach was wrong in using
his original quote as a starting point, I did give him a list of cost
reductions that I thought would have been more realistic in using that
approach. *And although I haven't told him this yet, I would be happy
to settle the matter if he accepted my proposed reductions.

Final point, he's quite a likeable chap, he does reasonably good work,
the stonework he did couldn't have been better, but he was slow to get
started and he has had to work weekends which shouldn’t' have been
needed. *I know ours isn't the only job he's been looking after over
the last few weeks. *Right up to his phone call, I only considered
that he'd been too busy to give me the updated costs, not that he was
being deliberately devious. *Even now I'm hoping that this is still
the case and we can come to a reasonable agreement, but I have to face
up to the fact that maybe I've been a little too trusting.

So what do you think? *Is there anything else I should be doing now or
should I bide my time and see how he reacts? *There's no doubt in my
mind that I still owe him money, but I'm not prepared to give him any
more until we reach an agreement on the final total. I'm also
wondering where we each stand from a legal viewpoint.

For any of you who feel the need to reply suggesting how foolish I've
been, don't bother. *You can't possible be as critical as I have been
on myself these last few days.

Thanks

Well don't be too critical of yourself, I learnt the hard way that you
have to get things in writing. Small-time builders like your guy are
notoriously reluctant to put anything in writing, and the best way to
deal with that is to collar them, refuse to let the work progress
until a clear oral agreement has been reached, take a note of it with
the builder at the time and get him to sign what you're agreed
alongside your signature. If necessary follow up with a letter to him.

Anyway, that's all lessons learnt. Legally I think the position would
be that you had a contract with him the terms of which you varied
without being clear exactly what the variation amounted to. The Supply
of Goods and Services Act says that in the absence of express
agreement you should be charged a "reasonable" sum. That's about as
helpful as it gets.
http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en...=0&oq=supply+o
So you and he need to negotiate what is reasonable. I would say he's
in a weak position for holding out for a large amount now, because you
did ask him several times to give you a figure previously. The nuclear
option is that you refuse to pay any more than what you think is right
and then let him sue you for the rest in the small claims court. If
he's as busy as he says then it sounds unlikely. If he does go to
court then for small claims there's a no costs rule, so you wouldn't
have to pay for any legal advice he seeks even if you lose. The most
you would have to pay is whatever the judge thinks you owe him over
and above what you paid. On the basis of what you'ev posted I wouldn't
expect a long and careful scrutiny by the judge, who will probably be
fairly impatient about squabbles between people who don't put things
in writing.

Cheers!

Martin

In article
,
Kevin wrote:
So what do you think? Is there anything else I should be doing now or
should I bide my time and see how he reacts? There's no doubt in my
mind that I still owe him money, but I'm not prepared to give him any
more until we reach an agreement on the final total. I'm also
wondering where we each stand from a legal viewpoint.

If you haven't signed a quotation as being accepted and haven't paid over
more than you think the work is worth, the ball is in his court.

--
*I want it all and I want it delivered

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

I had a very similar experience with a builder (except that his work
wasn't great) and it finally transpired that the reason he didn't like
given written quotes was that he couldn't read or write.

He's a lecturer at the local building college now.

If you think you still owe him something, I would stick by your guns
and insist he comes up with a proper breakdown, and try to keep it
friendly to maximize the chances of an amicable agreement. Maybe you
could suggest what you think is a fair price based on what's been done
and the quality of the workmanship, and see how he reacts to that.

Thanks for the responses, they seem to confirm what I was thinking.
Martin, I don't believe I ever had a contract with him, so I don't
think it's fair to say we varied that contract. He gave me a quote
weeks before we signed the contract for the kitchen and until that
point we didn't know for certain we were having anything done at all.
We never agreed his original costs, at the time I instructed him on
what work to do, I also asked for an updated quote. He had several
days to do this before he actually started, but he chose to block up
the doorway without providing that quote, I asked him several times
during the work for updated costs but they never arrived.
I read a summary of the supply of goods and services act and I really
don't think his costs are reasonable, so I'm feeling a little more
confident. In my mind he's played the game from both ends, costing
high in his original quote and then costing low when he's worked out
the reductions.

At the moment, he still hasn't been in touch. I think his approach
his wrong so I've asked him to provide a detailed breakdown. I also
gave him an indication of what I think are more realistic cost
reductions for the work he didn't do.

I'd prefer to settle this amicably, I think mistakes were made on both
sides, him for not providing the quote and me for not inisting on it
before allowing him to start the work. He already has my suggestion
on the cost reductions, if he accepts this then all well and good. I
also have a slightly higher figure in mind, whereby I will settle
simply to close the matter without any more trouble. If necessary I
would be prepared to use legal means to resolve it.

Now the only issue is whether I make the next move or wait for him
to. The letter asked him for a detailed breakdown of the work, so I'm
inclined to wait. On the other hand I don't want him getting any more
upset about it and find he dig's his heels in.

Thanks again for the replies. Just putting it all in writing has
helped me sort my head out.

On 23/06/2009 10:01 Kevin wrote:

Martin, I don't believe I ever had a contract with him, so I don't
think it's fair to say we varied that contract. He gave me a quote
weeks before we signed the contract for the kitchen and until that
point we didn't know for certain we were having anything done at all.
We never agreed his original costs, at the time I instructed him on
what work to do, I also asked for an updated quote. He had several
days to do this before he actually started, but he chose to block up
the doorway without providing that quote,

IANAL but I imagine there is some kind of implied contract/agreement in
place as you allowed him into your house to brick up the doorway.

--
F

OK, not sure. At the same time I let him in, I also asked for an
updated quote.
He still hasn't been in touch which is a little surprising because I
accept I still owe him some money, just not agreed how much.
Every time I've thought about ringing him, something else seems to
have cropped up.

Kevin wrote:
OK, not sure. At the same time I let him in, I also asked for an
updated quote.
He still hasn't been in touch which is a little surprising because I
accept I still owe him some money, just not agreed how much.
Every time I've thought about ringing him, something else seems to
have cropped up.

If you've a builder that relies on word-of-mouth then there is an
incentive for them to finish each job on an amicable standing, do what
they said they would for the price they quoted, tidy up after
themselves, etc. This chap probably isn't particularly bothered, because
he got your business through the kitchen company.

If you look at it from the builder's point of view, sometimes it's
easier just to forget about the final installment if the hassle involved
in sorting out the snagging problems (or invoicing properly as in your
case) is more than the outstanding money. An experienced builder is very
good at sizing up a customer and trying to figure out whether they will
pay promptly or quibble and this may well be loaded into what he quoted.

Once you have this kind of cynical viewpoint, you start looking around
and noticing gable ends of houses which don't quite match when the
bricklayer changed at the end of a job.

You might find it interesting to try and estimate the materials used on
your job and the day rate for everyone who was on site - generally
somewhere between 100-200 quid per day.

For those still interested, I rang the builder yesterday and he came
back with a handwritten breakdown of his actual costs.
The biggest cost by far is for the electrical work that he sub-
contracted, it's amounted to half the cost of the work. Now I haven't
seen the invoice for the electrical work, so I've only got his say-so
that it's right, and I don't think it was worth it, but I'm not
inclined to continue the argument.

His overall bill now is a little cheaper than his original suggestion
and a little dearer than my suggestion, we've met roughly half-way
between. Anyway I've decided to settle the matter and pay what he's
now asking for. He has apologised over the confusion and did seem
genuinely upset by the situation. I'm even beginning to feel a little
guilty because if he is being honest about the electrical work, then
he can't have made much money for himself on our job, and he has
offered to come back and sort out a couple of snags for us.

I've learned a valuable (slightly expensive) lesson, and I won't
employ anyone else without being absolutely certain up-front what I'm
going to be paying and a rough idea of how those costs break down. I
might even consider using him again in the future (if he'll work for
me), because as I've said all along, I can't fault the quality of his
work.

Thanks to everyone who offered their advise/opinion.

In article
..com, Kevin scribeth thus
For those still interested, I rang the builder yesterday and he came
back with a handwritten breakdown of his actual costs.
The biggest cost by far is for the electrical work that he sub-
contracted, it's amounted to half the cost of the work. Now I haven't
seen the invoice for the electrical work, so I've only got his say-so
that it's right, and I don't think it was worth it, but I'm not
inclined to continue the argument.

His overall bill now is a little cheaper than his original suggestion
and a little dearer than my suggestion, we've met roughly half-way
between. Anyway I've decided to settle the matter and pay what he's
now asking for. He has apologised over the confusion and did seem
genuinely upset by the situation. I'm even beginning to feel a little
guilty because if he is being honest about the electrical work, then
he can't have made much money for himself on our job, and he has
offered to come back and sort out a couple of snags for us.

I've learned a valuable (slightly expensive) lesson, and I won't
employ anyone else without being absolutely certain up-front what I'm
going to be paying and a rough idea of how those costs break down. I
might even consider using him again in the future (if he'll work for
me), because as I've said all along, I can't fault the quality of his
work.

Thanks to everyone who offered their advise/opinion.

Perhaps he might learn a bit too about quotes and estimates, but then
again there are good and sometimes very good tradesmen out there who
know sod all about running a business .. most fortunately have the
missus who often looks after that side who from what I've seen of it
works rather well)..
--
Tony Sayer